PDA

View Full Version : Epic Butcher - an analysis



ChainGun
10-05-2010, 06:41 AM
Kommander Orsus Zoktavir is both similar to and different from his Prime incarnation. He is almost as brutal (slightly weaker, as he lost Blood Frenzy) and is more vulnerable (having lost Iron Flesh and “gained” Arcane Dementia) but his feat is a strategic one, allowing you to win games by assassination and he can easily handle multiple Khadoran warjacks.

Strengths:


The Kommander is Brutal. With high MAT and incredible damage output, very few models in the game can survive an assault by Orsus.
Terror. Fearless units are more of a rarity in MK2 so this ability might prove useful from time to time.
Conferred Rage. What’s the down side of Khadoran warjacks? They are slow and inaccurate. Epic Butcher makes them fast and accurate. Well, sort of. Getting a free charge is easy enough; all your warjack has to do is stay within 12” of Orsus. Getting the SPD and MAT bonuses is trickier as it depends on Orsus killing something but deadly when activated.


Weakness:


Arcane Dementia. 1+d6 focus per turn is effectively 3-4 focus warcaster. That sucks. What it means really is that you upkeep Fury, allocate focus and only cast spells if you’re blessed with above average focus rolls. Don’t count on Eliminator, Ravager or Boundless Charge when planning your next turn as in most turns you’ll simply not have enough focus to cast them. Also, you can’t reliably count on hoarding focus for increasing your ARM.
Shortest direct threat range in the game. If you want to hurt something with the Butcher directly, the furthest you can take your damage is 13": by walking 5" and then shooting for additional 8" for a total of 13". All other Khadoran casters have greater threat range and other factions have access to Arc Nodes. This weakness means you can't count on the Butcher to actually hurt something. All Butcher players want to “apply axe to face” but it's better to acknowledge the fact that against a clever opponent it's not likely to happen and prepare for this situation.
Low CMD. The Butcher has relatively low CMD and will not be able to support his non-fearless troops very well. Since most of our melee infantry is fearless this is not going to be a major issue, but if you field winter guard, widowmakers or, to a lesser degree, Iron Fangs, a Kovnik could be handy.
Vulnerable. Without Iron Flesh the Butcher is a medium based model with substandard DEF and unreliable ARM stats. In addition, due to his Conferred Rage and Feel the Hate he needs to be in a very frontal position in order to make good use of his abilities. Bear in mind he is much more vulnerable to assassination than Prime Butcher and you need to protect him more. In a way, due his base size, complete lack of defensive special abilities and unimpressive defensive stats, he’s the most vulnerable warcaster in the game.


The Butcher’s allies:


Warjacks. Even though you have an average of 4-5 focus per turn, Conferred Rage will give you the equivalent of slightly more. I only take P+S 18+ warjacks with Orsus, for reasons I’ll specify later.

Juggernaut. Cheap and Brutal, I always get my points back when I assign a Juggernaut to Epic Butcher.
Spriggan. Not so cheap but hits hard enough and his Reach combined with increased MAT makes him a real infantry killer. With Powerful Charge you can charge at MAT 8 and still boost attack rolls.
Beast 09. Sigh. Everything every other Khadoran warjack does, the beast does better. With Conferred Rage that’s a MAT 9 Khadoran warjack.
Destroyer. Hits hard and can give you Rage Tokens during feat turn.
Devastator: an exception to the 18+ rule, the Devastator can shower you with Rage Tokens if you get close to infantry swarms. It is also a great “charge marker” if you want Orsus to charge something of your own.
Behemoth. Deadly against anything medium or large based but not a good assassin against small based warcasters and warlocks. Also, it can generate Rage Tokens with it twin bombards.




Not recommended warjacks:




Berserker. Not much of a synergy here. The Berserker doesn't benefit anything from Conferred Rage's free charge and the SPD/MAT bonuses can't be relied on.





Snipers. You want accurate long range models for generating Rage Tokens on the feat turn.

Destroyer and/or behemoth.
Widowmakers, Eyriss, Kell Bailoch, Alten Ashley, Rifle Corps + Jozef.





Fast, deadly models. Along with the warjacks, these are also potential assassins. Run them during the feat turn and then give them Rage Tokens to assassinate your opponent’s warcaster/warlock or simply open big holes in his army.

Fenris. Run + Rage Token = 26” threat range! Additionally, it can both generate multiple Rage Tokens and use them later.
Drakhun. “Only” 23” threat range, but can be targeted by Fury.
Doom Reavers. Fast and deadly.
Great Bears. Amazing with Fury on them.
Manhunters/Yuri. Pathfinder makes it easy for them to assassinate what you need killing during feat turn.
Kayazy assassins. With the Underboss’ minifeat and Rage Tokens it’s easy to get them near what you need dead. Gang + Fury makes them hit really hard.





Medium based models. If you’re used to small base warcasters it’ll take you a few games to adjust to the fact that the Butcher is hard to hide. A MoW Kovnik or MoW troopers will benefit you immensely in hiding the Butcher. I’d take minimal units, though, as their speed does not integrate well with the play style Orsus dictates.

MoW Shock Troopers
MoW Demolition corps
MoW Kovnik





Fearless troops. The Butcher’s mediocre CMD rating can’t guarantee high moral when the chips are down. Fearless troops or solos which lend their high CMD such as Jozef or the MoW Kovnik will benefit your non-fearless troops.

MoW Shock Troopers
MoW Demolition corps
Iron Fangs (with unit attachment)
Doom Reavers
Great Bears





DEF boosting units. Epic Butcher is more front lines than Prime Butcher only without Iron Flesh. You need all the help you can get.

Wardog
Gorman
Greylords




· Additional helpers




Ogrun Bokur – remember you’re playing the most vulnerable warcaster in the game. Defend him in any way possible.
Reinholdt – you focus is tight and you need to shoot stuff to trigger Conferred Rage and Rage Tokens. Reinholdt can boost your attack rolls or allow you to reload
Koldun Lord – every focus point counts

ChainGun
10-05-2010, 06:42 AM
The Butcher?s enemies:

Armor piercing units. The Butcher stands on a medium base, so Armor piercing attacks are much more devastating to him. Eliminate AP units as soon as possible.
Focus depleting units. The Butcher?s DEF is low range for a warcaster and he is relatively hard to screen so he needs his high armor for protection.
High damage units. While having a decent ARM stat and 20 hit points, his lowish DEF means that any warjack or warbeast which boosts attacks will hit him easily. In addition, even MAT 6 infantry will hit him almost 50% of the time. Don?t let high damage models near him.


Bad matchups:

Tough troopers. Tough armies will make you cry. It will be difficult for you trigger Conferred Rage and hard to generate Rage Tokens.
High Warjacks/Warbeas. Less annoying than tough targets because if Orsus upkeeps Fury on himself he will kill 90% of the heavies in the game in three attacks (for an average of 30 damage each!), but still not a preferred matchup.


Spells:

Boundless Charge. It?s an expensive spell but can be deadly when combined with Conferred Rage.
Use Fury on your would be assassins in the feat turn. A boosted P+S 22 can finish a wounded warcaster/warlock and severely maim anything else. This is your most reliable spell, use it wisely. Cast it on Orsus if you feel you are going to unleash him unto some heavy targets. Cast it on Yuri, coupled with Boundless Charge for the ultimate 13" P+S 16 + 3D6 Thresher attack of doom. If you catch more than one heavy target like this, it's worth sacrificing Yuri for it.
Eliminator. Remember that when your Focus drops so does you base stat so hitting something when your base FOC stat is 4 is hard to do. Don?t count on this spell.
Ravager. Couples nicely with Homicidal Maniac and the Spriggan will greatly benefit from it as well.


Feel the Hate: Feel the hate is a Strategic feat, one you build your list and strategy around. In my opinion it?s one of the most complex feats in the game, but also one of the most devastating when played correctly. Against Warmachine armies I try to use it in order to assassinate the opposing warcaster. Against Hordes it should be used in order to kill as many warbeasts as possible, crippling your opponent?s army. In theory, the feat seems simple enough: kill stuff in the Butcher?s control range, get Rage Tokens and allocate them. In practice, there are many complications and considerations:

You want as many enemy models in the Butcher?s control range after his movement. This means you?ll probably want to charge in order to cover more enemy models.
You also need means to kill those models. Snipers are great for generating easy tokens but other fast, high damage models can also work nicely.
Your would-be assassins need to be in the Butcher?s control range as well?
?but within walking range of their designated targets.


As you can see, many things can go wrong with this feat: you might not be able to generate enough Rage Tokens and if you do your assassins might not be able to reach their targets or receive the tokens. Even when you manage to generate a sufficient number of tokens, your troubles are far from over:

MAT 8-9 not enough for reliably hitting warcasters/warlocks, you?ll need to boost attack rolls. So unless you?re hitting DEF 13 or lower targets, you have already wasted two out of your three Rage Tokens for walking and boosting attacks. This leaves you with only one token left and unless you got lucky with a Critical Freeze, you?ll probably want to boost damage as well. Bottom line: against warcasters and warlocks you only get one hit. Use Fury to make sure it hurts.
There are no free initial attacks and no charge damage bonus. You buy each attack and you pay for attack or damage boost. While all of this is obvious, you should bear in mind that a Juggernaut with 3 Rage Tokens is dramatically weaker than a Juggernaut starting normal activation with 3 focus.
In addition, you get no special attacks: no Combo Slam, Thresher, Rain of Death or Vent Steam. No Chain attacks either, as Rage Tokens attacks are not initial attacks. Just your plain ol? P+S.


Summary for Feel the Hate:
1. Locate the opponents? models you wish to kill for Rage Tokens and Get them within the Butcher?s control range
2. Kill as many as you can
3. Place your assassins within your control range, as close as possible to their targets. Run if necessary.
4. Allocate Rage Tokens
5. Assassins walk and smack stuff
Additional tips:

Think Feel the Hate. Know who your assassins are. Know which of your models will generate Rage Tokens. Some models can be both, some can?t.
Protect the Butcher. Even though he can take more punishment than other warcasters, don?t feel overconfident with him. Eliminate direct threats to him as soon as possible. Cloud him whenever possible and prevent LOS to him if you don?t need him in the thick of the action.
On the other hand, you need to place the Butcher forward so you?ll be able to maximize Feel the Hate and your Conferred Rage. If he?s too far behind his army your feat will be almost useless.
Kommander Orsus is a relatively rare warcaster, use this for your advantage. Everyone is familiar with Signs and Portents or Icy gaze, but not many people realize that this Juggernaut is going to cover 12? and smack them up to three times with MAT 8 and P+S 22 or that the Drakhun just ran 14?, walked additional 7? and stabbed their warcaster to death.


Final thoughts
o Playing with Epic Butcher is either a blast or an invitation for frustration. Low focus rolls will ruin your game and so will armies with low model count and hard to kill targets. While he is incredibly fun, I wouldn?t take him on a competitive game where you really want to win as too many factors are simply out of your hands. On the other hands, some of the most hilarious and fun games you?ll ever play when playing Khador will be the ones with Epic Butcher.

frozenwastes
10-05-2010, 06:06 PM
I disagree with your writing off of the Marauder. I find the combination of Conferred Rage and Boundless Charge, the Marauder can charge into an ideal spot from which to slam something. Similarly, the +2 MAT also benefits the Kodiak greatly in terms of ensuring Chain Attack: Grab & Smash happens.

I think using Rage tokens on jacks is generally not the best way to go. I find more mobile options like Yuri the Axe, Manhunters, Fenris and even Doom Reavers are the ones who will get the caster kill.

Another thing about Feel the Hate. It's not always best to save it for a caster kill. If you're playing scenario games, you can often use it to get your horde of doom reavers or something similar into melee well past the objective early in the game. I find destroying the enemy army to the point that there can be no real reprisal to be just as useful as getting the caster kill. In one steamroller game I played, the Doomreavers, Fenris, Yuri and the Manhunters move into position to charge the enemy forces if they moved to contest the scenario zone. The weapon master horde was far enough away not to be charged themselves, so his only option was to give me the game via scenario or contest for a turn, receive my charge as best he could and then charge himself with his backup units.

I got enough focus to cast boundless charge on eButcher, charged one of the doom reavers who wasn't in an ideal position, popped my feat and my entire advance deploy weapon master horde charged his contesting units and jack. Then I used the feat to have them move up and engage and attack his back up units that he was planning on charging with.

Devilsquid
10-05-2010, 06:15 PM
Feel the Hate is very much a timing Feat. Pop it too early, and you have to overextend to make it work. Pop it too late, and there's not enough to kill to get hate tokens with.

Against Hodes, I use FtH to kill all the beasts I can in one turn. Against Warmachine, if I can get a bead on a caster, I'll go after them. Just Sunday I racked up 13 FtH tokens, and a Doomreaver one shotted Garyth.

Arkaya
10-06-2010, 01:31 PM
At my LGS we have a question about E-Butcher and his homicidal Maniac. Can you use this along side with Ravager and Kossite Woodsman? Useing the woodsman as a chain down the line to get across the board?

Kommissar Golovko
10-06-2010, 01:39 PM
You have to be killing enemy models to trigger HM and Ravager.

Tsaimath
10-06-2010, 02:03 PM
I would take Corbeu with him.
3" extra movement on Orsus or a Drakhun and possible extra command

Kuarnix
10-06-2010, 02:16 PM
I feel like you may want to make the addition/correction that low focus rolls CAN ruin your game if you were planning on having ~4 on any given turn. Generally when constructing your list and deploying, and thinking about your moves on your opponent's turn, I try to plan with 2-3 focus at most. It's nice to get more, but it's still possible to pull off some rather incredible assassinations with only two focus. A lot more difficult for sure, but hey, that's what we have Conferred Rage for...

And definitely gotta second the Koldun Lord.

ChainGun
03-16-2011, 12:51 PM
Additional thoughts regarding Homicidal Maniac and Ravager interaction.
1. If you charge multiple heavy targets and want a free Ravager attack, get one squishy friendly trooper to stand among your opponent's heavies. If you kill him, Ravager kicks in and gives you an additional 360 degrees attack at all the heavy targets.


Just note that in order to trigger Homicidal Maniac, Butcher needs to kill at least one enemy model. If he killed at least one enemy model and there are no enemy models within 2" he can move 1".

Friendly models does nothing for HM. Friendly models killed does not trigger HM move, but they also do not stop him from moving, even if they are within 2" of him. As long as he keeps killing enemy models eveything is fine :)
http://img861.imageshack.us/i/homicidalmaniac.jpg/

Additional thoughts regarding Boundless Charge + Fury.
1. One of the hidden strengths of eButcher is the combination of Boundless Charge and Fury. I try to start games casting Fury on Yuri and unleash his Thresher attack at heavy targets some 13" away. His Pathfinder and Tree Walker make him very hard to avoid, especially if he hides within 3" of a wood. The Great Bears can give you a similar effect: on one hand they all benefit from Fury, on the other casting more than one Boundless Charge per turn can be very expensive. The Doom Reavers, while very fitting fluff wise, can benefit from none of these spells.

2. Markov is another little gem with eButcher. His warhead attack can generate a lot of Rage Tokens at the right moment, especially if you slap Boundless Charge on him. He is also a great candidate for Fury/Boundless Charge since he has two attacks (lance+mount) and unlike the Uhlans, he has the MAT to actually hit something. Precision Strike allows you to get extra accuracy (= deadliness) against heavy targets.

3. Most of what I've written about Markov holds true for the Men o War Drakhun as well. The threat range is 1" shorter and you don't get Warhead attack, but the damage output is superior due to Weapon Master and higher POW on the mount.

quindraco
03-16-2011, 01:16 PM
http://img861.imageshack.us/img861/7206/homicidalmaniac.jpg

I think ChainGun's image is broken in his post there, so I grabbed a healthy link from another thread and am posting it here.

GlassJaw
03-16-2011, 02:18 PM
Ravager gives you an additional attack whenever you kill something, not necessarily enemy models

Are you sure? HM says "If there are no enemy models...in which it destroyed one or more."

I was always under the impression that you had to kill at least one enemy model in order for HM to kick in.

ChainGun
03-16-2011, 10:50 PM
Are you sure? HM says "If there are no enemy models...in which it destroyed one or more."

I was always under the impression that you had to kill at least one enemy model in order for HM to kick in.

You're right, my bad. fixed that.

Imperial
03-17-2011, 12:50 AM
Just want to check this, I can give out more than 3 rage tokens ,right?

ChainGun
03-17-2011, 12:56 AM
Just want to check this, I can give out more than 3 rage tokens ,right?

yes, but no more than 3 to each model. A model can have up to 3 Rage Tokens.

Fons
03-17-2011, 04:17 AM
No solo section?

ChainGun
03-17-2011, 04:32 AM
No solo section?

See the "The Butcher’s allies:" section above. I talk about Fenris, Mow Kovnik, Drakun, Koldun Lord and more.

Kwadjo
03-17-2011, 08:15 AM
You're right, my bad. fixed that.

No you were right before has HM reads it says if he killed ANYTHING, any type of model, AND there are NO ENEMY Models in melee range move and inch. Afterward If Ravager is up You Make another attack, which because of HM means he gets to smash everything in sight and reach. You can use your own models to daisy chain into the enemy

MaGoff
03-17-2011, 10:13 AM
HM reads it says if he killed ANYTHING, any type of model, AND there are NO ENEMY Models in melee range move and inch. Afterward If Ravager is up You Make another attack, which because of HM means he gets to smash everything in sight and reach. You can use your own models to daisy chain into the enemy
No. HM reads "...If there are no enemy models in this model's melee range after resolving a normal melee attack in which it destroyed one or more, it can advance up to 1"."

Destroyed one or more what? The answer is enemy models since that is what the sentence is talking about. Simple english.

Mercykiller
03-17-2011, 01:13 PM
In other news, the tactics in this thread are still ace, as is Chaingun's analysis.

sharpe
03-17-2011, 06:33 PM
Great write-up. Bit more comprehensive than the one that was pinned in the tactics thread. Would make a great addition there. Epic buther is tons of fun and all the help I can get running him well is awesome.

gliep
03-25-2011, 02:47 AM
You need Enemy Models for HM to kick in. But Ravager can be triggered from your own models. You dont get the move, but you get the free attack ;)

@Chaingun : Nice analysis. Do you plan to write something about his theme force? It plays a little bit different IMO.

mostholycerebus
02-13-2012, 10:31 AM
Chaingun, have you considered updating the OP with any of our new options? Bombardiers, Valachev, Black Ivan, etc, any of these better options for eButch?

Stickies tactics thread, so I assume necro is a non issue.

squee
02-14-2012, 03:39 AM
I disagree with your writing off of the Marauder. I find the combination of Conferred Rage and Boundless Charge, the Marauder can charge into an ideal spot from which to slam something. Similarly, the +2 MAT also benefits the Kodiak greatly in terms of ensuring Chain Attack: Grab & Smash happens.

I think using Rage tokens on jacks is generally not the best way to go. I find more mobile options like Yuri the Axe, Manhunters, Fenris and even Doom Reavers are the ones who will get the caster kill.

Another thing about Feel the Hate. It's not always best to save it for a caster kill. If you're playing scenario games, you can often use it to get your horde of doom reavers or something similar into melee well past the objective early in the game. I find destroying the enemy army to the point that there can be no real reprisal to be just as useful as getting the caster kill. In one steamroller game I played, the Doomreavers, Fenris, Yuri and the Manhunters move into position to charge the enemy forces if they moved to contest the scenario zone. The weapon master horde was far enough away not to be charged themselves, so his only option was to give me the game via scenario or contest for a turn, receive my charge as best he could and then charge himself with his backup units.

I got enough focus to cast boundless charge on eButcher, charged one of the doom reavers who wasn't in an ideal position, popped my feat and my entire advance deploy weapon master horde charged his contesting units and jack. Then I used the feat to have them move up and engage and attack his back up units that he was planning on charging with.

I both agree and disagree with you. The marauder is a fine jack for eButcher because of conferred rage and its general low focus requirement.
As for Feel the Hate, it's been great for getting my Devastator into a caster-kill position. P+S 16 may not be great for killing heavies, but it works just fine for bludgeoning casters to death.

squee
02-14-2012, 03:56 AM
My own assessment of eButcher: CLICK HERE (http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?77982-Build-me-an-eButcher-army!&p=1063801&viewfull=1#post1063801)

Salisk
02-14-2012, 10:57 AM
I remember that thread! But yes, my thoughts on Orsus are as follows.

You need more doomies.

but I already have 5 units!

You still need more doomies.