How Skorne Changed in the Field Test

[goreshde]

Overall I think the faction went up in power, but that is just because the warlocks got better.

The loss of the TC and pain givers speed means that across the board Skorne Beasts and Infantry got weaker. While Skorne casters got improved the rest of Skorne got worse.

I agree with Scalpel that the new BB is almost an auto-include just for his animus. The loss of the +2 speed from the pain givers means I am never taking a Gladiator again without the BB. It means I am never taking a Rhino without the BB. It developed a new auto include for us if you want to play with melee beasts. I know the old style pain givers and Rush can not exist in one faction, but our melee heavies went from a 2 point support cost to a 12 point support cost. I would much rather have it the other way so I can bring more diverse lists.

The TC getting nerfed was obviously going to happen. Right now he reminds me so much of the fell caller, yet is so much worse. I am not sure what lists I will bring him in. This means units like Karax and Ferox are a lot worse. Even Venators power went down over all because of the loss. Every single one of our units and solos went down in power. Our ability to Alpha strike well went away... unless we take a 10 point beast.

Overall I think this is a step in the right direction, but is nothing to celebrate.

[viperidae99]

Skorne players were actively complaining about having speed buffs, so they were taken away. Now we still have speed buffs but they're nowhere near as widespread, or as cheap to acquire. Some of our casters still offer speed buffs, while the Tyrant Commander can affect beasts with his.

I'll wait and see how testing goes before crazy celebrating, but I wonder if some people are stuck in complain mode. The second we get something good, like the Bronzeback's animus, there are cries from Skorne players that it's too good and makes him an auto-include.

Do people really wonder about our situation when everything we have is deemed rubbish, and everything we get to remedy it is then labeled OP or auto-include? :rolleyes:

[Pickles]

I agree with Scalpel that the new BB is almost an auto-include just for his animus. The loss of the +2 speed from the pain givers means I am never taking a Gladiator again without the BB. It means I am never taking a Rhino without the BB. It developed a new auto include for us if you want to play with melee beasts. I know the old style pain givers and Rush can not exist in one faction, but our melee heavies went from a 2 point support cost to a 12 point support cost. I would much rather have it the other way so I can bring more diverse lists.

The TC getting nerfed was obviously going to happen. Right now he reminds me so much of the fell caller, yet is so much worse. I am not sure what lists I will bring him in. This means units like Karax and Ferox are a lot worse. Even Venators power went down over all because of the loss. Every single one of our units and solos went down in power. Our ability to Alpha strike well went away... unless we take a 10 point beast.

Overall I think this is a step in the right direction, but is nothing to celebrate.

PP are obviously trying. Before MK was seen as too much of an auto include. He is still fast & hitty thus needs the speed less than the BB so at the very least you could take either premium heavy. Rhino is cheaper & not too slow so should still be viable solo.

The Fellcaller would probably think the TC is too much. He has all those extra wounds & the fearless aura :)

I agree the +2 attacks is probably better than +2 speed on advances but the TC can effect beasts as well as units (Fell caller is a tad better at fighting too). I would like to swap Reveille for something but mostly for differentiation. (maybe steady, though that hammers the Brutes animus, or set defence, which is themey).

Anyway I am much happier overall - stuff looks fun.
Now where did I put my Kool aid?

[Tionas]

I really think the new TC is just fine. Bringing him along to stand up my 5 KD, Hollow Preats last night would have been fantastic. would have allowed them to do something other than march forward.

Overall, I'm going to need more games to validate anything you have said. and, realisticaly, you cant back up what you've said with games, unless you played half a dozen or more between last night, and now, which i doubt.

I understand that your good at what you do and i'm not trying to devaluate it, but, give it a chance man. put together some different lists, and see what you make of it before trying to Lump all the changes into one paragraph less than 24 hours after they are instituted.

I happened to play a game with the new Hexeris last night, and it was bad ***. Hollow on the Preats, Death March on the Arcuarii, Immortals... any unit you touched was gonna do something, I promise. never got to cast rush, but the paingivers didnt need the extra speed for the charges I made.

was nice, overall, and I think with the MAT and HP bumps, the Titans are back in black.

[Sevwall]

The TC getting nerfed was obviously going to happen. Right now he reminds me so much of the fell caller, yet is so much worse.

Please explain this statement.

[Rynth]

Please explain this statement.

Lower base DEF?
No gun?
Only one attack?
Part of a unit rather than a solo?

I'm not seeing how either is "so much worse" than the other. If anything the Fell Caller is the one who suffers in direct comparison, but not significantly enough that, were I a Trollblood player, I'd be up in arms about. However, I might be biased enough to render that statement worthless.

[Donesh]

Please explain this statement.

Two of their abilities are rather similar now. Trollbloods tend to get knocked down far more often then Skorne does which makes Reveille of questionable value to Skorne.

The real difference is a +2 to hit melee buff better then 2 extra inches of non-charge movement. While the extra movement has its uses(and currently works on beasts which I expect to change), the extra 2 effective MAT is better.

There is also the whole spray thing. Or the fell callers two weapon master attacks.

[goreshde]

+2 speed on the advance or +2 to attack rolls. Which would you rather have? If it is not that big of a deal submit feedback that you would like them switched. The TC does have the flag, while the Fell caller has a rat 6 spray. I don't like spam-able fearless, and 1/4 of our castes give it out anyways. A rat 6 spray though is money in the bank.

Also revile is A LOT better in trolls. You have tough all over the place while only 1/4 of our casters can give tough out.

[Yertle4]

Overall I think the faction went up in power, but that is just because the warlocks got better.

The loss of the TC and pain givers speed means that across the board Skorne Beasts and Infantry got weaker. While Skorne casters got improved the rest of Skorne got worse.

Overall I think this is a step in the right direction, but is nothing to celebrate.

So, essentially, they gave us nearly exactly what we wanted and you're still sticking to your guns?

We said our infantry was ok as it was - but we always took the Tyrant Commander anyway because it made the army as a whole work. Now those abilities have been spread out more.

Our beasts were pretty crap across the board and they put this down to the ever present +2 SPD from Paingivers. DC put up the suggestion that beasts could be made better without that +2 SPD. That's what they did - our beasts are now good without the support, and become better with it.

Our warlocks lacked direction and anti-Warmachine abilities - hey, that's what we got.
You complained Xerxis has an inefficient beast spell - so they took it away and gave you a better general buff, saying "here you go, no reason to run more beasts than you want to, that's not what he really does".

We got a focus. That is something to celebrate because it's worth playtesting as a faction, and worth working on.

[Scalpel]

Overall the Warlocks did get better ... some I like more than others ... but all need 2-3 games each to test them all out now again, so can't really comment yet except thanks for looking at them again PP.

Warbeast, I like the fact they re-thought about the Animi's ... and swaped a few about.

However the Bronzeback isn't going to use Berserk now much really with zero way's to move him after an attack, or no way to give him reach. (Personally I think Reach on the Tusks is a bad idea).

See my other thread about the Paingivers and Bronzeback change ....

I'll also talk about the othe Warbeasts on seperate threads.

The Tyrant Commander change was coming, we all knew that. But now he effects Warbeasts ? Really ? I've asked on another thread if this is a typo or not , becuase it changes things too much.

Really disapointed to see the Arcuarii just get a -1pt decrease .... They still have the same role as before ... an cheaper but more powerful melee unit than Cetrati - I really don't think we will see a change to them ... obvioulsy PP think they are fine as they are, where most of us don't .... yes I know there are some of you that only wanted a cheaper unit ... but mehh ... they will stay on my self gathering dust.

Venator points drop was nice.

AG getting Brutal Charge I feel was PP trying to meet us half way.

------------

Overall a step in the right direction ... even if I may not agree with Skorne needing to remove Paingivers as an auto-include.

I used to run lists without them before ... so don't see what's changed really ... except the "don't balance our warbeasts with taking paingivers all the time rants". Trolls have the same problem with KSA, Menoth with Choir, etc.... it happens it's not like a 10pt model is an auto-include ... ohh wait :p

The only problem now is, the lose in speed must be balanced with better Warlocks ... so get play testing guys!

[Yertle4]

However the Bronzeback isn't going to use Berserk now much really with zero way's to move him after an attack, or no way to give him reach. (Personally I think Reach on the Tusks is a bad idea).

Really disapointed to see the Arcuarii just get a -1pt decrease .... They still have the same role as before ... an cheaper but more powerful melee unit than Cetrati - I really don't think we will see a change to them ... obvioulsy PP think they are fine as they are, where most of us don't .... yes I know there are some of you that only wanted a cheaper unit ... but mehh ... they will stay on my self gathering dust.

Concur on the Bronzeback and Beserk - I don't get it. I'd rather have Overtake and no Beserk to represent him rampaging through troops.

Can I be the unique individual who thinks Arcuarii are fine now :p
They don't replace Cetrati - even at that point cost. I think that tells you something about how big a difference shield wall and +1 ARM makes and that they're essentially a completely different unit.

[Donesh]

So, essentially, they gave us nearly exactly what we wanted and you're still sticking to your guns?

I have a hard time as seeing this as getting what we asked for.

Skorne infantry wasn't fine, but it was propped up with the TC. Now this is no longer the case. Overall Ferox, Kerax, Immortals, Arcuarii, and Venators(though I want to try them) are not worth their points.

Our Beasts are in a similar boat. We still need paingivers or they dont hit hard enough. If we want a speed boost we now need a Bronzeback and also need to use a short ranged fury costing animus. While the animus is helpful elsewhere its not really making our beasts better.

Some Warlocks have been made better, others worse, others just have confusing changes. Why again am I fielding beasts with the new Xerxes? I dont see a new focus so much as a loss of the old.

[Yertle4]

Some Warlocks have been made better, others worse, others just have confusing changes. Why again am I fielding beasts with the new Xerxes? I dont see a new focus so much as a loss of the old.

Don't field beasts with him then. You have no reason to, except that you need fury, transfers, and our beasts are actually good now.

[Darque]

Just one example:

Xerxis Feat turn, Glad slams. Buffed by Fury, Enrage, & Trainwreck.

3d6 to hit
4d6+19 damage + Follow up
potentially 4 more 3d6+20 attacks to finish him up.

Look on opponents face? Priceless.

Gentlemen if that doesnt get your heart racing, you may already be a zombie.

[HannibalTheGreat]

So, essentially, they gave us nearly exactly what we wanted and you're still sticking to your guns?

We said our infantry was ok as it was - but we always took the Tyrant Commander anyway because it made the army as a whole work. Now those abilities have been spread out more.

Our beasts were pretty crap across the board and they put this down to the ever present +2 SPD from Paingivers. DC put up the suggestion that beasts could be made better without that +2 SPD. That's what they did - our beasts are now good without the support, and become better with it.

Our warlocks lacked direction and anti-Warmachine abilities - hey, that's what we got.
You complained Xerxis has an inefficient beast spell - so they took it away and gave you a better general buff, saying "here you go, no reason to run more beasts than you want to, that's not what he really does".

We got a focus. That is something to celebrate because it's worth playtesting as a faction, and worth working on.
I highly second this statement! I wonder what PP had to do to satisfy even the last ones who seem to rather complain than playing a game.



Our Beasts are in a similar boat. We still need paingivers or they dont hit hard enough. If we want a speed boost we now need a Bronzeback and also need to use a short ranged fury costing animus. While the animus is helpful elsewhere its not really making our beasts better.
Sorry, but tell me a beast or heavy jack that is comparably costed and deliver a similar amount of damage than Gladiator / BB.
Throw in some faction spells / abilities BESIDES paingivers and you´ll see that our beasts may lack something, but definetly it´s not raw power.

HTG

[goreshde]

Just one example:

Xerxis Feat turn, Glad slams. Buffed by Fury, Enrage, & Trainwreck.

3d6 to hit
4d6+19 damage + Follow up
potentially 4 more 3d6+20 attacks to finish him up.

Look on opponents face? Priceless.

Gentlemen if that doesnt get your heart racing, you may already be a zombie.

And all it took was them leaving a heavy/caster withing 7.5 inches of the Gladiator without killing him first.

It is Xerxis feat turn, why not just do the same think with Cetrati and still kill what ever you touch?

I mean it is great theory machine, and I hope you can pull it off.



I highly second this statement! I wonder what PP had to do to satisfy even the last ones who seem to rather complain than playing a game.


Us doom sayers seem to have more actually play experience than you kool aid drinkers. I have not submitted any feedback about these changes yet because I am only one game in.

A lot changed and a lot needs to get tested. When the initial feedback hit a lot of people were talking about how great Skorne was, when those of us who played a lot of games right away saw huge issues. Later a lot of the people switched over to saying Skorne still needs help. I just see that happening over again.



our beasts are actually good now.

No they are not. They are good if you take a BB. Even then you are spending more resources from your caster in order to make up for the nerf to pain givers. You are also limiting what other animi could have been put on the beast.
I played with the BB and Gladiator last night and it was awesome. I am glad the two of them work together, but I am never again taking a Gladiator if I am not also taking a BB.

[ketsugami]

I am glad the two of them work together, but I am never again taking a Gladiator if I am not also taking a BB.

Or pMorghoul, or eMakeda?

[Donesh]

Sorry, but tell me a beast or heavy jack that is comparably costed and deliver a similar amount of damage than Gladiator / BB.
Throw in some faction spells / abilities BESIDES paingivers and you´ll see that our beasts may lack something, but definetly it´s not raw power.


There are tons of things that easily outdamage a Gladiator. A Juggernaut with 3 focus can take 4 attacks vs. armor 20 at dice -1. Plus its fist at dice -5. Total damage is 10d6 -9. A Gladiator will take 6 attacks at dice -4 with its fists and one more with its tusks at dice -5. This is a total of 14d6 - 29. The Juggernaut is doing more and costs one less point. A Crusader without the choir does 10d6 - 14 so its getting close to being equivalent but it costs 2 less points.

A Bronzeback gets an extra attack and higher P+S. Its 16d6 - 24 vs armor 20. It is outdamaging a Juggernaut that costs 3 less then it but not significantly.

[Darque]

And all it took was them leaving a heavy/caster withing 7.5 inches of the Gladiator without killing him first.

It is Xerxis feat turn, why not just do the same think with Cetrati and still kill what ever you touch?

I mean it is great theory machine, and I hope you can pull it off.




The Centrati were off getting 5d6 damage on the charge against a Thunderhead. Killed it in 3 hits. Had to waste an attack on the single box he had left.

As I understand it, immediately after the game Centrati were feedbacked by the victim as overpowered. lol

[Yertle4]

Us doom sayers seem to have more actually play experience than you kool aid drinkers. I have not submitted any feedback about these changes yet because I am only one game in.

A lot changed and a lot needs to get tested.
I was a doomsayer for the first 3 weeks and stand by that. Now I am optimistically neutral. I feel this is what should have been released the first time around. A lot changed, and a lot needs to be tested. Except now I actually want to play it.

I think your dependence on Paingivers 2" move is partially because you prefer Cryx speed (which Skorne are not), and partially because you grew to depend on it (like many of us depended on the Krea's MkI animus to do anything).

[planescapedm]

Executioner was retarded OP... While I dislike the lack of speed buff on paingivers I'll get over the lack of speed on paingivers, at least you can trample now.

BB isn't "auto-include" at 10 points... he's worth the 10 points. And quite frankly, it's probably more balanced that our cyclops won't have an automatic 13" threat range. Pain-givers are still auto-include IMO, which just says how good they were before when they had +2 speed.

You don't think gladiator is good stand alone? Would you rather he have the same speed as Molik so you could complain about the gladiator being auto include? Things are balanced now. If you want a beast that wrecks anything within 10" it's going to cost you now. If you want one that wrecks anything within 7" well, it's really quite cheap for what you get. You're just going to have to play a little more creatively.

[Scalpel]

I think your dependence on Paingivers 2" move is partially you grew to depend on it...
Ermm no.

Circle have mad speeds ... and so they should.

Legion have SPD 6-7 Heavies as Standard.

Trolls have the Axers Animus, and other methods.

All those factions can get melee heavies into combat easily with a min 10" charge.

Skorne had an odd mix ... from SPD 4 to 6 ... the SPD 4 stuff NEEDS the speed bonuses to compete.

This is the problem with the faction ... we started with SPD 4 Heavies and SPD 6 lights. We could alpha strike with the Lights while the Heavies got into position.

Now we have a SPD 6 Heavy with Reach !!! The Light's never really used the +2" Movement ... sometimes but not all the time, mostly it was to give the Savagers P&S 15.

So now we have SPD 4, 5, & 6 Heavies ... and a flat +2" Charge/Slams was why people were saying don't balance Molik on always having Paingivers .... but why wouldn't you have them?


Personally I felt when Molik was released in MK1, he should have been SPD 5 ... and maybe that's something we need to look at now.

I'd rather have +2" Charge/Slam back on the paingivers, so out melee titan's can still do what they need to do WITHOUT having to take a Bronzeback, and Nerf Molik to SPD 5 ... that what we have now.

Also nerfing Molik to SPD 5 would also mean we could buff his Damage Output as others have complained its too low.

Damm Molik broke our faction! and that's imho the honest truth .... everything we do now doesn't buff our heavies ... it buff's him more ... hence why he is so many points for our faction.

Anyway .. sorry going a little off topic there.


The end result is, it's not we got used to it ... it's the fact we needed it ... and even then you'll always want it ... hence the BB is very hard not to take in every list .... ask ANY troll player about how many times he doesn't run an Axer in a melee Warbeast force.

[goreshde]

There are tons of things that easily outdamage a Gladiator. A Juggernaut with 3 focus can take 4 attacks vs. armor 20 at dice -1. Plus its fist at dice -5. Total damage is 10d6 -9. A Gladiator will take 6 attacks at dice -4 with its fists and one more with its tusks at dice -5. This is a total of 14d6 - 29. The Juggernaut is doing more and costs one less point. A Crusader without the choir does 10d6 - 14 so its getting close to being equivalent but it costs 2 less points.

A Bronzeback gets an extra attack and higher P+S. Its 16d6 - 24 vs armor 20. It is outdamaging a Juggernaut that costs 3 less then it but not significantly.

You are not being fair comparing beasts to jacks. Lets make sure we only look at Hordes, it keeps it more sporting.

Here is some math done. This is all done with just the beast just walking up to a def 12 armor 18 target. Before people start complaining this is done is a void, every faction other than legion has a great way to buff the str of their heavies that is not warlock specific. If a beast's animus could help themselves, they cast it.



Glad 1 24.5
Glad 2 30.11 weighted average 26.6

Feral 33.3

Mulg 44.16

BB 29.6

Carni 31.1

Mauler1 28.9
Mauler2 35.6 weighted average 31.4


I wish there was a better way I could present this spread sheet with the calculations.

For the Gladiator and Mauler there are two lines. At the end I took a weighted average using the probability that the chain attack will go off.


But as you can see the Gladiator is not top notch at damage output.

[Rynth]

But as you can see the Gladiator is not top notch at damage output.

Gladiator, IIRC, is also the cheapest of those presented, so I would hope that he is beneath the standard of the higher costed beasts

[planescapedm]

Point Costs...
Gladiator -- 8
Feral -- 9
Mulg -- 11
BB -- 10
Carnivean -- 11
Mauler -- 9

Wait, you didn't include paingivers because every faction but Legion can buff beast str? But you did include the Mauler's animus? What?

[goreshde]

the mauler's animus was only cast on the mauler and it lost attacks because of it.


The other beasts that preform better than the gladiator are all faster. That is not represent in the chart either. The chart is just refuting the claim the the Gladiator is the hardest hitter there is. I am pretty sure I can run the numbers and he would lose to Megalith as well.

[PPS_MrSoles]

A couple updates:

Hollow only works on warrior models.

The Battle Plan abilities Overcome and Press Forward likewise only work on warrior models.

[planescapedm]

A couple updates:

Hollow only works on warrior models.

The Battle Plan abilities Overcome and Press Forward likewise only work on warrior models.

:( at Battle Plan

Used it last night on my cannoneer

[dboeren]

Figured those were coming, thanks for the update!

[planescapedm]

Hey Mr. Soles,

Any chance that you could give us some thoughts on the Skorne changes, overall feel and synergy and what your main goal was when making decisions?

[goreshde]

Also could you post your thoughts on the AG. I remember you were talking about doing that, but it never happened. I was looking forward to it.

[Sevwall]

The TC has a friend who can chill out up to 10" away who has wounds and a 10" fearless bubble. The only army wide fearless granting thing in game asidefrom some casters.

You could trade this for an 8" SP, I guess.

At the very least, I would call this a fair trade. If not in your favor. But I don't see "so uch worse" anywhere in the equation. Especially considering the help that the 2" move and pathfinder provide. Sure, its not +2 MAT, but its not bad.

My statement mattered more when I thought you could give your beasts pathfinder. Since this has changed, I feel they are more equal to each other now. Though I fear the FC will get nerfed.

[Scalpel]

Though I fear the FC will get nerfed.
I doubt it ... still has to be more on the front lines.

[Citizen_Nutter]

If the Paingivers get the +2 charge back expect the BB to lose Rush (Pathfinder to boot) and Leadership as it stands. So we slowly move back to square one. I say bring the Rhinodon up a bit more (return the Horn, change animus) and if you want a faster heavy without the BB you can still use him.

What we need to look at is the new caster tools enough to make up in toughness/tricks over brute movement benefits. Xerxis slows enemies, Makeda lets you move faster albiet at a loss to the free charge boost on the first attack, both can boost defense/toughness and so on.

I mean we need to test a lot here. I'd think early discussion and gloom will only sour people before they try new ideas.

[PPS_MrSoles]

Hey Mr. Soles,

Any chance that you could give us some thoughts on the Skorne changes, overall feel and synergy and what your main goal was when making decisions?

The biggest thing we did is go back and look at what we wanted to see out of each of the warlocks. Increasing synergy was also on our minds, as was increasing the fun factor without necessarily stepping up the Factions offensive capabilities.

Some things are still a little rough, others may be over the top, but I do think it was a solid step forward.

And thanks to everyone for your suggestions.

[PPS_MrSoles]

Also could you post your thoughts on the AG. I remember you were talking about doing that, but it never happened. I was looking forward to it.

I mostly ended up doing that in the main Field Test thread. The gist of it is that the Ancestral Guardian was overpowered in Mk I by our estimation. It could hit harder and more reliably than most light warbeasts and could occassionally take out heavies. That is not where we want to see that model, so it was reigned in. It is now a very tough model that can throw out a lot of damage, but nowhere near what its previous incarnation could.

[droffset]

The biggest thing we did is go back and look at what we wanted to see out of each of the warlocks. Increasing synergy was also on our minds, as was increasing the fun factor without necessarily stepping up the Factions offensive capabilities.

Some things are still a little rough, others may be over the top, but I do think it was a solid step forward.

And thanks to everyone for your suggestions.

Good job PP, keep it up!

[planescapedm]

The gist of it is that the Ancestral Guardian was overpowered in Mk I by our estimation.

LOL, what an understatement. I've killed butcher with focus on him with an AG in MK1.

Thanks for the info Mr. Soles! The warcasters look a lot better. I think the solos are solid too. The warbeasts and units might need a few more changes but overall a lot better and more fun.

[Scalpel]

Mr.Soles .... while you are here and seem to be willing to part with the info ...

Can you maybe please explain the role you wanted the Arcuarii to perform for Skorne?

Thanks in advance.

[Moonblade]

Us doom sayers seem to have more actually play experience than you kool aid drinkers. I have not submitted any feedback about these changes yet because I am only one game in.

Then don't complain before you got at least 3 games in.

Sorry, but I'm really happy with PP trying to help us in the new update. I'd rather say some constructive things than just doom-saying.

[skorne tyrant]

Overall a step in the right direction ... even if I may not agree with Skorne needing to remove Paingivers as an auto-include.

I used to run lists without them before ... so don't see what's changed really ... except the "don't balance our warbeasts with taking paingivers all the time rants". Trolls have the same problem with KSA, Menoth with Choir, etc.... it happens it's not like a 10pt model is an auto-include ... ohh wait :p

The only problem now is, the lose in speed must be balanced with better Warlocks ... so get play testing guys!:D

I compleatley agree with you although i am happy with the role that they gave to the tyrant in the latest update he finally is how he was probably ment to be. i am still kinda pissed that pp hasent changed the AG back to having 5 soul tokens.The fact that you could have 5 tokens before ment that buy taking two AG's you could cover most losses that you were going to take after your crunch turn and also give your opponet a verry scarry solo to contend with after they have finished butchering your guys.I cant tell you how many times i had to bluff in a poor position with an AG just to try to buy a turn

[gaminguy]

Gladiator, IIRC, is also the cheapest of those presented, so I would hope that he is beneath the standard of the higher costed beasts

And can any of those others slam without forcing by themselves?

@ Mr. Soles; Very, very happy with most of the changes. I don't see a jump in power but I do see a faction that feels a lot more like the "1 part Khador raw power, 1 part Menoth synergy" Skorne that I liked so much in Mk I. There is almost nothing I think I have to take and less that I don't see a use for, and that is a wonderful improvement.

I would like to second Scalpel's request for your thoughts on what the Acuarii are supposed to do.

[Citizen_Nutter]

What WOULD people like to see to make the Titan "worth it"? Shall we get Paingivers Enrage back and crucify the Bronzeback back to having a subpar animus? Do we just accept he loses any snergy with Gladiators so they can stand alone (Titans speed 5, no reason outside of fluff with BB's being leaders of herds)? The same time though Titans have a ton of nice abilities.

I say we need to look at Rhinodon and Drake animus to add in more options. Rhinodon needs his horn back and perhaps a benefit to speed only when charging (rhinos move FAST once speed is built up) so he now has the first strike role (lower armour, maybe less HP) and the Gladiator is made a TAD (note tad, slightly, small) tougher. Then you have your cheaper heavy meatshield and your heavy "on the charge hes crazy" beast.

Short form: Rhinodon for people wanting speedier heavy, Gladiator for meat shields.

Now I think having the Drake with a different Animus would be interesting and maybe thats where we should bend our heads down to look for a cheaper support ability to be placed.

That being said we also need to consider we can buff ourr beasts substantially better with our locks now i.e.

*Xerxis can make the enemy slower and beast tougher.
*Makeda can make it faster and tougher(you lose your opening boost but speed vs raw power)
*Zaal has Sunder Spirit (whole can of potential animii available) and Inviolable Resolve
*Mordikaar has Ghost Walk for manuverability
*Morghoul has Abuse

Consider with a tougher Titan you might be able to absorb charges, Medicate and let the titan go to town.

*Acuraii - Consider dropping Paingivers and Top Cat for a unit, drag in light models closer so you can slam and follow up to achieve a greater threat range.

Then consider using Praetorians for the greater good, running ahead of the Glad to absorb charges or tie up enemies so the Glad can get into position. That way your army gets its souls, your Praetorians die (as they must) and your Titan can counter slam whatever it was into a pile of mushy left overs.

I also quite like where Mollik stands. He is a manuverable "everything is game" beast. Enemy Shieldwall getting you down? Charge in, sidestep + Reach and you can clean up the unit nicely. Side Step around shields on jacks and beasts, side step to attack anything behind the heavies or even as a simple beat stick hes quite nice. Maybe a tad cheaper, but his very much like our assassin solos but...bigger.

With the Acuraii, I'd like to see a combined ability for them to drag a heavy as this would let them artificially extend our speed by bringing things closer rather than just handing out movement buffs like crazy. A Titan + Acuraii combo would be mean that way and would define their role a bit more since Cetratii are a meat block designed to protect, Acuraii are designed to help the army offensively.