Time to step it up

[Sevwall]

I've been pretty happy with the fieldtest so far. Its all seemed rather fair and balanced, and we were doing pretty well. Fair or not,this last update has me pretty riled up. Not angry, just ready for change.

We were the faction that had average beasts that we boosted with Rush to hit far and through terrain.

Thats not ours anymore. The SPD 5 Bronzeback took that from us. Stealing out animus away andgiving it to the enemy. Now they can ignore terrain on thier beasts just like we can.

Okay. Fine. Fairs fair and whatnot. They I get to the Tyrant Commander. Yes, yes, he doesn't buff MAT. Fine. He bufffs SPD instead, which is still very potent even when limited to a full advance. He also stole Open Road.

Oh wait, he didn't, he has a better version that can be used on beasts.

Well, blow me down. Straight up better ability. Same RNG, same granted pathfinder. Just not on beasts.

So thats frikkin changing.

And that sparked another thought. Why the hell do thier battle plans work on beasts, and ours don't? Cannoneers marching up the field at 6" lobbing shots.

So,I want Warcry to work on beasts. Why? Well, first, its not all that overpowered. Hear me out. Right now, we just put the damn call only on warrior units, and use it to break stuff in half. So that means that we rarely take beast heavy lists, because we can't handle all the fury. Opening up Warcry to beasts would allow for some real, beast heavy lists.

Simple change, consistent with present abilities, and only shifts his role from infantry only buffer (and encourager of infantry heavy lists) to an all-buffer, encouranging frikkin balance.

Secondly, we need to get on Borka. I don't think he works that well for the majority of us. Xerxis, a fair caster, can get buffed though forum and more importantly feedback action, so lets get that changed as well.

So here is the list:
Fellcaller to be an equal opprtunity buffer. Smach his RAT to balance. I won't even ask for a fearless bubble :rolleyes:.
pDoomshaper being a pretty bad buffbot if the enemy doesn't use spells that much. Yeah, I'm looking for Havoc or Incite here, dropping Rampager.
eDoomshaper's feat being so limited
Calandra's feat being equivalent to half of S&P. Smack Befuddle
Borka, and especially Keggy.
The Scattergunners.
The Dygmies.
The Winter troll.
Longriders.
Horthol's junk synergy with

Thats it for now. Yeah, I want some buffs. Yes, I am willing to trade some power. I acknowledge that Skorne lost the over the top +2 SPD from Paingivers. And that Rush is on a more ex*****ive beast than the axer. I'll spare comparing the Bronzeback to the Earthborn, just because I know its a wasted comparison and comes off as silly, even though irrationally I want to make it right now.

Meh, maybe this is a rant. But we still have a long way to go guys, and we can't be complacent about this fieldtest.

[ryanbo724]

I should have just read your post and reponded to it. Instead, I just created a post without looking at the forum to see what was there. We basically have the exact same list of models that need to be looked at. Mine aren't direct comparisions to what Skorne just received like yours is, but never the less it is basically the exact same list.

I agree with what you are saying whole heartedly. We have gotten changes and tweaks to models, but there is still a list out there of items that need to be addressed and we need to continue to feedback and test those models.

Thanks Sev for doing this.

[kakita]

What's so wrong about expen- OH HAHAHA.

Skorne got better. Good for them. And I do like the idea of being fair. Either warrior model/unit on both skorne and trolls or just model/unit.

[Amarel]

Skorne are looking very good now - I know they needed buffing, but I do think it's gone a step too far in some instances (in as much as to get them looking good, other factions don't hold up so well now).

To add to your list I think the Dire's need more Health now - The Mauler, who I think was a perfect 9, is looking a little raggedy now compared to some of its cross-faction competitors (what with the Gladiator an 8-pointer, and the FWW getting a health boost).

[Benopotomus]

What bothers me is still the tyrant commander. It's like they took the Champion Hero (commander 10, reach, weaponmaster) and Fellcaller (buffs) and combined them into a single model. Why are we paying 6 points for a clearly 3 point unit. Can we just make the Hero and Fellcaller a unit?

I like what they did to Xerxis. He is a terror with that spell list. All the spells are Warmachine level power (which i thought was a no no). On top of that he hits harder than either of our beatstick warlocks (and has the rage animus built in).

This isn't just theory machine... I've played against a Xerxis list before the update. He was able to charge 2 lines of cetrati through eachother and double dip Fury to end up with 12 pow 14 weaponmaster, reach units that could charge through each other. Now on top of that, he's gunna have the first wave have defenders ward and the control of circle terrain making.

It would be nice is Madrak or Borka could do something neat like that.

[Invader Larb]

I agree that the Tyrant Commander is out of line. He needs to not help Warbeasts. Skorne already has plenty of options for that.

But to refocus our efforts I feel we have a pretty short list of things that need help:

* Calandra's feat - replace it with something defensive a la Saeryn, eSkarre, Black Feona
* Borka - needs the Xerxis treatment, Keg needs to be redone
* Grim's Snare Gun
* Scattergunners - need Bob & Weave and they're perfect
* Fennblades - need either an anti-charge buff (Set Defense and Unyielding for 5/8) or a threat buff at +1 SPD
* Burrowers - need to be reworked, probobly closer to original field test version where they tunneled from the beginning but may not go back under




And a few little things...
* Hero - ARM buff in base to base with Champions
* KW UA - 2 points
* Long Riders - +1 ARM +3 wounds +1 cost

[Warsmith]

Larb, you hit everything I have listed on the nose. If we can chip away at this short list, I think we will be good.

[Invader Larb]

Thanks, Warsmith. We're very close to having everything cleaned up. It is a good time to be playing Trolls.*







* It is also a good time to be playing some of the other factions too.

[don gumbo]

Fennblades,Longriders,Horthol,KW UA,Hero are good the way they are.

[Cannibalbob]

Secondly, we need to get on Borka. I don't think he works that well for the majority of us. Xerxis, a fair caster, can get buffed though forum and more importantly feedback action, so lets get that changed as well.

So here is the list:
Fellcaller to be an equal opprtunity buffer. Smach his RAT to balance. I won't even ask for a fearless bubble :rolleyes:.
pDoomshaper being a pretty bad buffbot if the enemy doesn't use spells that much. Yeah, I'm looking for Havoc or Incite here, dropping Rampager.
eDoomshaper's feat being so limited
Calandra's feat being equivalent to half of S&P. Smack Befuddle
Borka, and especially Keggy.
The Scattergunners.
The Dygmies.
The Winter troll.
Longriders.
Horthol's junk synergy with




To be fair, Skorne was in a bad place and needed some changes. Just like some of the Circle changes from earlier - I think a few models might have been tweaked a bit too much - although not too much. I expect that the Gladiator will probably bump up a point as it is now a 9pt beast and not an 8pt beast.

But in regards to your list, I agree mostly.

In regards to Havoc on pDoomy - I would take it, but I feel that spell would have a better place on Borka.

Borka needs work - I agree. If Xerxis, who was boring before but not underpowered, could get a big turn around that makes him interesting and good, then Borka can get the same treatment. Borka is boring as hell right now - we need to get that fixed.

I think the fellcaller is fine personally.

Calandra's feat is not horrible, but it is not really amazing for a feat. And frankly, there are too many possible abuses and shenanigans available to Befuddle. I think she ought to lose befuddle and get some other spell, and then have her feat boosted up.

Scattergunners I am not sure about. They are not bad. I like thier cost and stats. However, I can never ever ever think of a reason to bring more than a full unit. This is my problem with them, but I have NO idea how to fix it.

Longriders - I am just going to accept that they will forever occupy my shelf. They are no longer the Tuffalo crew - they are the Shelfalo crew. I think they are victims of poor implementation of cavalry in general (with the exception of light cav). I guess I can deal with the fact that all cav sucks...

Horthol - we NEED to get this dude turned into something good. Cav sucks in general, but Dragoons do not. There is hope for Horthol - lets do something about it. He is boring, ineffective outside of a few armies, and expensive. If he is gonna cost that much then he ought to be worth it. If nothing else he could really use backswing.


Burrowers... graaaaaaahhhh...!!!! Just make the damned things fun to use and play with. The periscope is one of my favorite models - give me a reason to enjoy fielding it....

[The Anders]

I was thinking that keggy should add to Borkas fury stat, as a special action for one rounde, not just add a furry.

[Lee T]

I own some troll models (they look cool), but I've never played Hordes, with or against. My group is 100% warmachine. Being a reasonable guy I do follow the fieldtest but I do not participate. I can't play the game, I don't know the factions, what the hell would I have to say that would have any relevance... however this:


Burrowers... graaaaaaahhhh...!!!! Just make the damned things fun to use and play with. The periscope is one of my favorite models - give me a reason to enjoy fielding it....

is full of truth :) .

[Negative9]

I was thinking that keggy should add to Borkas fury stat, as a special action for one rounde, not just add a furry.

Book keeping issues as well as potentially leaving beast out of control area.

[Redphantasm]

Fennblades,Longriders,Horthol,KW UA,Hero are good the way they are.

The rest are debatable, but Fennblades are FAR too situational in their abilities to be "fine". I don't want a troll unit that pays for special rules to counter a threat they will never see.

[Invader Larb]

FYI, Jason Soles posted a small update that sait that Battle Plans are only on Warrior models. The Tyrant Commander does nothing for beasts except Reveille.

[Hiratu]

Fennblades,Longriders,Horthol,KW UA,Hero are good the way they are.


The thing that bugs me about the KW UA is it is PC3 for a unit that is only 4/6. I don't think it would be out of line to drop it to 2 with the abilities it gives, but if it has to I'd rather it lose something and drop to 2 instead of stay at 3.

Fennblades don't really seem to serve a purpose as I don't think there is going to be much cavalry being used with the changes that has been made. It seems like their only use is they have reach.

The Hero isn't bad, but I think giving him the +2ARM bump when b2b with champs would make him perfect.

Longriders are just in sad shape. They're too slow and only have 5hp? Why is PP so set on all cavalry only have 5 damage?

[ozmo]

Give the Longriders battle driven!

[Invader Larb]

The reason they want Cav generally at 5 wounds is so they do not trump the walking multi-wound infantry like Champions, Man-o-War, Bastions, etc.

[Saerko]

FYI, Jason Soles posted a small update that sait that Battle Plans are only on Warrior models. The Tyrant Commander does nothing for beasts except Reveille.

Skorne: We're like Trolls, but evil!

[Waaargh]

FYI, Jason Soles posted a small update that sait that Battle Plans are only on Warrior models. The Tyrant Commander does nothing for beasts except Reveille.

Yes indeed:


A couple updates:

Hollow only works on warrior models.

The Battle Plan abilities Overcome and Press Forward likewise only work on warrior models.

[Silopolis]

Skorne: We're like Trolls, but evil!

Starting to look that way.

[Sevwall]

Well I'm less angry about my friend the fellcaller.

The rest of the stuff is still on the list.

I just see every change being for the better, and seeing some of our junky stuff, we need to get back on the bandwagon, and buff our stuff up when it needs it.

And we still have some stuff that needs it.

[Silopolis]

I just feedbacked my thoughts on Borka, but it didn't have a lot of real alternative suggestions (I was afraid of the character limit!). I mostly just posted that he was boring and mopey and needed some flavor, even if it didn't make him "viable." Borka for me was about entertaining myself and my opponent, not about winning games, and the new version doesn't seem great at either. :)

I feedbacked the Kegger as well, same basic gist.

Hopefully that sort of "PLEASE take a look at this model!" feedback is useful. I need to put in more games (which, over the holidays isn't going to happen) before I can get any more detailed than that.

[Jack Spratt]

I agree with a lot of what have been said here. I think the winter troll is ok and scattergunners mostly suffer from being a little boring.

pDoomshaper is still not nearly good enough. I have said it before but defensive feats are a lot less powerfull than offensive ones (all things being equal) in this game.
Borka has lost his flavour and Calandra needs a new feat.

The Longrider I just do not know about, I guess some extra arm would do some good or/and backswing.

WHAT I REALLY WANTED TO SAY WAS...

I do not think the EBDT looks very cool. Am I the only one that feels that way? I think the animus blows. If it also gave pathfinder it would be a different story. Right now it makes me go kinda meh. But overall I think mostly I find it boring.

[Goldstep]

pDoomshaper being a pretty bad buffbot if the enemy doesn't use spells that much. Yeah, I'm looking for Havoc or Incite here, dropping Rampager.
eDoomshaper's feat being so limited
Calandra's feat being equivalent to half of S&P. Smack Befuddle
Borka, and especially Keggy.
The Scattergunners.
The Dygmies.
The Winter troll.
Longriders.
Horthol

Just to be clear, do we have anything that is TOO powerful at this time. I personally think that (except Befuddle) powerful stuff got smacked down with urgentcy.

I'd also say that the winter troll doesn't bother me, but I seem to be able to get the animus to work really well. Better than is should on paper, so I could call it lucky.

[Jack Spratt]

Oh and I forgot the Fennblades! I really feel they need some kind of defining ability, a defensive one like they had before would be cool.

[Negative9]

Essentially, we got lazy after Mulg and forgot that the field test isn't over yet. So there is still more work to be done. Just remember its about balance not buffing, too many people are trying to turn the field test into a giant gimme of model abilities.

[Sevwall]

Yes. That is also essential. Remember what Skorne lost, in the form of the TC and the Paingivers.

However, I think we have fewer sacred cows. I would give up Warcry for significant buffs to the faction. The fellcaller isn't even auto-include anymore, now that our heavies are worth a damn.

[Goldstep]

When he posted this in something postitive, I almost warned him it would come back to bite him.
I am making this thread as a place to post about all of the things you like about Mk II Trollbloods. Think of it as a counterpoint for the knee jerk threads. So here's the counterpoints from someone who wants the best for us, but did not feel our reactions were warranted:


Doomshaper:

Doomshaper may have lost his calming effect, but honestly with the addition of Whelps this effect had become redundant. Doomshaper gained Goad which is more than a fair trade.

Between trample and Goad, you will find that it is much easier to get your Dire Trolls where you want them to be.

The damage potential for Doomshapers feat has doubled!I wasn't really buying it then. They can get there. Then they doing do anything. So you end up using eDoomie instead. Am I wrong?

-----
This next one, he might need to come in and defend...
Burrowers:
Their burrowing speed has doubled! They can also burrow 3 inches on the turn they pop up. That's an effective 8" movement the turn they come out of the ground. This makes it easy to place them in the enemies back arc, giving them the +2 backstrike bonus.

When you combine back strike with Marked for Death, Good Omens, Spread the Net, Calamity, or Death Sentence it is not difficult hit reliably.

Burrowers are also dirt cheap.Well... none of that is true anymore. Don't even know where to start.

-----
This one is a little more debate worthy.

Scattergunners:

While The unit itself did not change much, sprays did.

Ignoring cover, concealment, stealth, and melee penalties

Set these guys up behind your front line and decimate anything foolish enough to charge your fennblades/kreil warriors. I mostly kill the rest of my Kriel warriors. YMMV.

He also mentioned the Champs, the Chronicler, and auto-fire on the Pyre. As well as this buddy. I tend to agree, but...

Caber Thrower:

Try 'em before you knock 'em. Three 3" lines are better than one 6" line.I've taken him a lot (I love the model) but I've never USED him. He's a bit of a bullet catcher right now. Without "Take Up" he's a bit of a target. Now people do stupid stuff to get at him and I tend to be up in the game capitalizing on it... but I've yet to USE the caber.
Maybe this is an indication I want too much.

---
So are we overreacting, or are these models as foul as our rickey knees are saying?

[Waaargh]

On overpowered stuff, I find the Chronicler would do fine if he were 3 points. But that's purely based on what I hear around the PP boards. Mulg could be too good, but erm, he lost a lot going from AYGTET to Overtake, Snacking (if situational with him) and +SPD, STR and boxes. I can't see him being overpowered. There has been a lot of talking about the Thumper, and a lot of counter argument for why a range 14" artillery won't be broken. Personally I have not tried that one either.

What I do fear is perhaps the Fury mechanic in itself is better than we give it credit for. My WM buddy really find it unfair (have offered to swap armies for a test run), and in some of the more extreme circumstances I have been able to do impressive things with it. It has been with an aggressive reckless playstyle it worked out well.

[ColdYinTiger]

Thumper is fine and balanced, about the only trick we have with it is backshooting our models to knock down targets, otherwise its slow and we are medium based.

I really hope they look at Borka. They seem obsessed with him having that damn spray, if Xerx can get by without an attack spell he can too. They both are very similar in tone, they buff troops in different ways. Xerx with Martial Discipline and his orders, Borka with his keg carrier. Its just his kegger isn't working as intended anymore.

[Sevwall]

Nooooooo. The chronicler cannot be 3. No offensive potential. Lower his MAT to 5 and his P+S to 10, and he will be a 2.

[CerberusPuppy]

The Winter Troll did go down to 5 points right? So I'm okay with it now. It's not great, but it does have it's uses.

It's a shame about the Dygmies, but I'm not sure how to truly fix them.

I feedbacked that Calandra's feat should affect damage and tough rolls and Befuddle should have reduced range.

I also gave feedback that the Hero should have Defensive line with the Champs. FWIW, I have seen him do well in a few games.

The Scattergunners need one additional thing like Bob & Weave or Assault or something, but hey Doomie got Fortune back- they might be good with him.

Fennblades are good, but it would be cool if they had something to set them apart from KW, even at an increased cost. Set Defense would be excellent.

Long Riders are possibly the worst cav in either game. They are expensive, fragile and slow, a bad combination. I understand that all cav has 5 wounds now, but why did they have to lose POW and ARM? They even lost their best synergy- Borka's Liquid Courage. I'm mad that I spent $100 on models that are about to be shelved.

P-Doomie looks ok to me- he just has to bring something that can actually kill the opposing caster, like Mulg. I like the Dire Node idea though.

I wish Grim had Force Blow and that the snare gun were better. Maybe if he lost the Cumbersome rule.

The big one for me is Borka, who was my favorite warlock in Mark 1. He was never competitive, but now he's weak and no fun to play. Great.

[Warsmith]

Alright, so I just sent a flurry of feedback regarding a number of our underpowered models. I suggest everyone else begin to play, test, and feedback as much as possible this weekend so we can hopefully see results in the next update!

[PPS_Jack]

When he posted this in something postitive, I almost warned him it would come back to bite him. So here's the counterpoints from someone who wants the best for us, but did not feel our reactions were warranted:

I wasn't really buying it then. They can get there. Then they doing do anything. So you end up using eDoomie instead. Am I wrong?

I've taken him a lot (I love the model) but I've never USED him. He's a bit of a bullet catcher right now. Without "Take Up" he's a bit of a target. Now people do stupid stuff to get at him and I tend to be up in the game capitalizing on it... but I've yet to USE the caber.
Maybe this is an indication I want too much.

So are we overreacting, or are these models as foul as our rickey knees are saying?

First of all I am confused why you would post quotes that are referring to rules that no longer exist...

My comment about Goad vs. the Calming Effect is more founded than ever now that the frenzy rules and whelps have changed. I can see why most people would rather take Edoomie, he is easier to use. However, Pdoomie is viable, and his feat is very powerful if you use it at the right time.

You seem to be confused about Take Up, it is written into the basic rules for weapon attachments. Check your Prime Mk II core rules.

In my opinion many of you are overreacting, but that does not mean that Trollbloods are perfect. I agree that Borka/Keggy needs some love. Calandra's feat is also somthing I would like to look into, however I just got a kitten so my playtesting time has decreased significantly this week.

[petegrrrr]

Easy fix jack.

Super Glue, Field gun, BAM! Kitty Blizter. And the playtesting can commence!

[PPS_Jack]

Easy fix jack.

Super Glue, Field gun, BAM! Kitty Blizter. And the playtesting can commence!


lol, now I want to playtest the blitzer kitten vs. the hedgehog.....

[petegrrrr]

Blitzer kitten wins via adorable round five disembowelment.

But just wait till I finishin mounting that Field generator on my dog. Hydra puppy for the win!

[Strange_Eric]

Fellcaller to be an equal opprtunity buffer. Smach his RAT to balance. I won't even ask for a fearless bubble :rolleyes:..I think you have it backwards. Tyrant Commander should get toned back to not work on beasts. There's no reason to hand it out to beasts. He's a troop/unit leader. Fell Calls have more of a reason to go that route, but that's neither here nor there. Edit: Apparently it works this way. So its fine. hooray for reading the whole thread.



Calandra's feat being equivalent to half of S&P. Smack BefuddleKeep Befuddle, add Damage rolls to the Feat. There's no reason not to with the one re-roll in place. Its perfectly balanced as is.



Borka, and especially Keggy.Borka needs some tweaks, minor if anything. Mosh Pit is so amazing by itself, he's basically our version of Vlad. token feat-like spell.



The Scattergunners.
The Dygmies.
The Winter troll.
Longriders.
Horthol's junk synergy with I agree that scattergunners need a tiny bonus of some sort, I dont know what. +1 SPD or something. Dygmies are fine. Winter Troll needs +1 Rat. and that's all. Longriders need +1ARM. Horthol needs backswing, or cleave.

[rydiafan]

Longriders...are good the way they are.
I will give $1,000 to anybody who can manage to say something more wrong than this.

[Mr.B]

I really really really want Borka to get Bounce again. It was suck a great ability. Keggy is CRAP now. He honestly makes no sense...

[petegrrrr]

I will give $1,000 to anybody who can manage to say something more wrong than this.


The Thumper was better with the old rules, and my house is inside the sun.

[Goldstep]

You seem to be confused about Take Up, it is written into the basic rules for weapon attachments. Check your Prime Mk II core rules.

WHOA! I'm looking at Primal and I see this on page 6 og 56:


Attachments
Attachments are troopers that can be added to some units.
They include unit attachments and weapon attachments. A
unit can have only one of each type of attachment. Models
in an attachment are not Grunts. Attachments are easily
identified by their “Attachment” rule, which specifies the unit
or units to which they can be attached.And this on page 38:

Attachments
Attachments are made up of one or more models that can be
added to a unit of the same type as the attachment. They can
be fielded only as part of a unit, not as individual models.
Attachments cannot be added to weapon crews. There are
two different types of attachments: unit attachments and
weapon attachments. A unit can have only one of each type
of attachment added to it. Models in an attachment are not
Grunts.
Each attachment’s rules list the unit types to which it can be
added.
An Officer can be added to a unit with a normal unit
Leader as part of a unit attachment. If the unit contains both
an Officer and a normal unit Leader, the Officer is the unit
commander.Nothing else about them.

Neither of these areas has take up and it is is the cards for winterguard. Furthermore if it is in the rules then when you kill a Soulless Escort it should come back.

I think either this is a mistake that it is missing from the rules or I need to talk to acrobat about the search function in their app... call it browse maybe.

[don gumbo]

I will give $1,000 to anybody who can manage to say something more wrong than this.


Whats wrong with them honestly? Is it because you think they are bad or you just can't make them work? The KW UA costs too much? Really? Two more models with tough are added and make the unit as a whole even better and 3 points is too much? Why because all the other UA's cost 2? When did this Field Test become nothing more than a glorified retarded squabbling bid for power? Oh they got this so we should get it too! Is all I read on here anymore. And its disheartening to go on reading these things and keep my mouth shut about it.

[petegrrrr]

I think it's in Prime instead of primal.

[Negative9]

The Thumper was better with the old rules, and my house is inside the sun.

The Thumper was better with the old rules... a better sock jack.

[Goldstep]

In my opinion many of you are overreacting, but that does not mean that Trollbloods are perfect.I likely am overreacting, but I targetted you only because you were the most positive voice for trolls in the first week.

And in that positive voice we saw defense of some of the models we are talking about.

And you made the statement they were ok. Your statements are what we need to consider as we talk about changing these models.


I think it's in Prime instead of primal.
Sorry same stuff in Prime. Pages 6 and 45. Even so, as far as the field test is concerned I'd say this is a different book and need to either have this rule added or it isn't there. If it isn't in Primal it isn't a rule my Trolls can use.

[petegrrrr]

And let me add that I am ashamed of all of you that no one made a single reference about either learning how to dance, growing up on the wrongs side of the tracks, how on the streets you "Dance to survive", or tatum channing in a thread called "Step it up".

You have let me down and are a terrible burden on your poor mothers :)


In fact, from now on, all my answers on this thread will have Step It Up quotes in them.

[Cannibalbob]

In fact, from now on, all my answers on this thread will have Step It Up quotes in them.


Ok, but I have never seen that travesty of a movie, so your quotes will be lost on me.

I shall reply in turn with Swedish Chef quotes:

"Gersh gurndy morn-dee burn-dee, burn-dee, flip-flip-flip-flip-flip-flip-flip-flip-flip"

[petegrrrr]

Darnit Bob, can't you see!

I'm fighting for something real for the first time in my life!


Also, everyone should get drunk and watch it once with friends. If viewed drunkenly and ironically, it's a hilarious travesty.

[Cannibalbob]

Also, everyone should get drunk and watch it once with friends. If viewed drunkenly and ironically, it's a hilarious travesty.


hmm... not sure there is enough booze for me to want to watch that movie. Seriously... I don't think there is enough...

[DaKnub728]

Lets get off drunken dance movies and get back to the fieldtest shall we... ;)

[Mutton]

Two quick things: There is no generic "take up" rule for weapon attachments in the rules. Second, I think that Trolls overall are quite solid, needing a few minor tweaks. Borka, the Scattergunners, and Horthol need some help. The SSC needs a nerf. Longriders are on the same power level as the rest of the heavy cav in the game.

[Strange_Eric]

Longriders are on the same power level as the rest of the heavy cav in the game.

I'm wondering what litmus test you have to prove this?
Our heavy Cav is similiar in function to some other cav in the game, yes.

But here's the thing, with what Trolls can bring, are longriders something we _want_ to bring. Does it fit into the mold of a troll army?

The whole thing from me about +1ARM is that it makes the longriders bump into an area that competes on the level with the rest of our army. They have a high enough base ARM to flank, or they can turtle with our army as they're at the point level of champs, they may as well have some spine like them too. I'm not simply wishlisting here. I think that in form and function, longriders need to be resilent and brutish. And right now they're a tiny bit away from that.

[Mutton]

I'm not saying Longriders are amazing; they suffer from being heavy cav in mk2. It's a purposeful design choice on PP's part; I suspect they were selling too much Cav and wanted to cut down on it. All Cav start at ARM17 and have access to an ARM buff or some crazy shenanigan; Uhlans have Defensive Line, Vengers Battle Driven, Stormlances Arcane Shield via Jr, and Longriders the Krielstone. In terms of shenanigans, you've got Steelheads with Flank+Backswing and Ferox with Jump; Longriders also fit this mold somewhat with Bull Rush. I agree that Longriders need a buff; I'm an advocate of an across the board single point drop off all heavy cav. Issue is, ALL HEAVY CAVALRY has these problems; Longriders are not the only ones.

[bakaryu]

I fail to see Sev what about the Winter Troll needs looking at so badly, the only possible things I can see are:

Rime not working until end of activation - True the old version was better but he had to spend valuable focus to make it happen and with the mkI system it was much easier to stack up multitudes of dice, leading to his swift demise. Considering he is a 5pt beast I think making it happen immediately after an attack that doesn't destroy him would push him back up to 6pts.

RAT4 - Granted this isn't amazing at first glance, but considering that elevation is now the only defense against spray attacks, the Winter Troll is hitting DEF14 on average boosted rolls with critical stationary. Would RAT5 be broken? Probably not. Do I think its necessary? Certainly not. My Winter Troll has accomplished great things throughout the field tests.

[ColdYinTiger]

I once played Borka while hammered. I even had my leather stein with me. Oddly enough, I won vs mk I eVlad with champs and scattergunners.

[Sevwall]

My specific issue with the Winter is that a 5 point model who primarily shoots needs to be RAT 5.

[Benopotomus]

Look at the Basilisk Drake. 4 Points with a Rat 5 pow 14 spray attack. I think Sev is right about this one.

[petegrrrr]

I'm not saying Longriders are amazing; they suffer from being heavy cav in mk2. It's a purposeful design choice on PP's part; I suspect they were selling too much Cav and wanted to cut down on it. All Cav start at ARM17 and have access to an ARM buff or some crazy shenanigan; Uhlans have Defensive Line, Vengers Battle Driven, Stormlances Arcane Shield via Jr, and Longriders the Krielstone. In terms of shenanigans, you've got Steelheads with Flank+Backswing and Ferox with Jump; Longriders also fit this mold somewhat with Bull Rush. I agree that Longriders need a buff; I'm an advocate of an across the board single point drop off all heavy cav. Issue is, ALL HEAVY CAVALRY has these problems; Longriders are not the only ones.

Longriders have the added penalty of having low end arm, and the lowest speed in the game for Cav.

The mat bump was nice, but not really an issue in mark 1.

They are low man on the cav totem pole, but it doesn't really bother me as Cav itself is just not a great option anyway till you start hitting 75 point games.

[Strange_Eric]

Longriders have the added penalty of having low end arm, and the lowest speed in the game for Cav.

The mat bump was nice, but not really an issue in mark 1.

They are low man on the cav totem pole, but it doesn't really bother me as Cav itself is just not a great option anyway till you start hitting 75 point games.

I would actually say that their MAT could be dropped, Trolls have plenty of ways of bumping MAT already. We didn't need the MAT bump. (Carnage+Cav+FellCaller=MAT 13) What we needed to keep was resiliency.

[theummhmmguy]

My current focuses from these other Threads.
http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?t=504
http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?t=3588

2-Longriders - Cost and Hitboxes. ~ Fixed, am happy with the change, though I still think they are too expensive for what they do, maybe increase PS a bit?
5-Both Madrak's Ricochet
7-Grim Angus ROF2 Please
8-Grim Angus Snare Gun (they can just shake it off)
9-Pyre,Slag,Impaler RNG 8 to 10
19-Impaler Animus to hit any friendly so it can be used on minions.
25- Grissel's Cacophony Fell Call changed to an pulse instead of Aura (like it was in MKI)
15a-Fenn Blades Snag and Slash changed to set defense OR set defense added.
22- Keg Carrier's Stumbling Drunk ~ not using it ever what do you guys think?
24-Dygmies need a tweak still, maybe let them stay burrowed but reduce the underground movement from 3 + 3 = 6 to 2 + 3 =5
25-Pyre and Winter to RAT5

Minions

1 - Farrow Brigands RNG on the Pig Iron increased to 12" (unless Farstrike works on minions)
2 - Feralgeist able to bond any beast, but cannot activate friendly beasts on the turn it binds them.
3 - Dahlia leave at Fury 4, but allow casting at 5 or 6. Maybe if Skarath in close enough or if she forfeights movement to cast.
4 - Slarath gains jump
5 - Rorsh RNG increased to 12" (same deal with Farstrike)
6 - Saxon Orrick RNG increased to 12"(Farstrike Deal)
10 - Wrong Eye leave at Fury 4, but allow casting at 5 or 6. Maybe if Snapjaw is close enough or if he forfeights movement to cast.

[caramelthunder]

I'm not saying Longriders are amazing; they suffer from being heavy cav in mk2. It's a purposeful design choice on PP's part; I suspect they were selling too much Cav and wanted to cut down on it. All Cav start at ARM17 and have access to an ARM buff or some crazy shenanigan; Uhlans have Defensive Line, Vengers Battle Driven, Stormlances Arcane Shield via Jr, and Longriders the Krielstone. In terms of shenanigans, you've got Steelheads with Flank+Backswing and Ferox with Jump; Longriders also fit this mold somewhat with Bull Rush. I agree that Longriders need a buff; I'm an advocate of an across the board single point drop off all heavy cav. Issue is, ALL HEAVY CAVALRY has these problems; Longriders are not the only ones.

We got the stream-line treatment where our cav is exactly like the other heavy cav, except we got the extra kick in the balls of being speed 7 and DEF 12. If they can make an exception on us with speed, they can make the exception in other ways. Right now, our cav is better suited to be the secondary charge unit. We tie something up with cheap infantry, then send the LRs hiding in terrain or behind our army to charge when the enemy is clogged up. But 7/11 points is really hard to swallow unless I"m playing a low fury caster and can't fit another beast in fury wise. If I would ever use them again, and that's a big if considering their cost and what they do(n't), it wouldn't be until 75 point games. To be honest, I would rather take Horthol, Gudrun, and the Totem Hunter over a full squad of LRs. Or maybe even the Gatorman Posse.

We do need to accept that not everything is coming out this with what we want. I've already accepted that the LRs are no longer one of my favorite units. I just hope some changes are made so that they aren't borderline worthless until large games, where they become marginally useful. I think streamlining heavy cav was a mistake by PP; especially when I look at how nice light cav is. But that decision has already been made. If Ferox can get jump with speed 8, maybe LRs can get something like double charge: they charge at speed plus 7. That sounds crazy, but it's just brainstorming. Hell, I'd take jump. Champs riding buffalo jumping over things would be awesome!

[Loki77515]

22- Keg Carrier's Stumbling Drunk ~ not using it ever what do you guys think?I also hate Pour a Pint. Even though the Keg Carrier is SPD 5, I always use Top Off instead. It doesn't really slow Borka down since the guy is so boring that he just sits behind the lines casting Mosh Pit and passing out animi anyways.

I would love to see the following changes made to the Carrier:

1) Pour a Pint is replaced by Liquid Courage which would grant a friendly warrior model/unit fearless and steady. Yeah, there is no drawback to that, but Stumbling Drunk is what is stopping me from using Pour a Pint now and did anyone actually use Mk. I Liquid Courage to get the additional damage die in Mk. I (outside of Longriders, of course)? I remember always using it on a unit that had already run into combat with the enemy so that they wouldn't have to take the "freestrike." The fact that the Keg Carrier has had drawbacks to his drinking abilites have hampered their effectiveness in the past and with the new Top Off ability, I feel that he really needs a viable alternative.

2) Why is he SPD 5? Is it just to make us want to use Pour a Pint more often because Top Off requires us to be in B2B and that would slow Borka down? I doubt it since I have yet to find myself in a situation where I didn't slow Borka down to moving 5" a turn just to use Top Off.

3) I would love Party Foul to come back. I would also like it to grant Fearless and Steady to all friendly warrior models/units within the Carrier's CMD range when he dies for one round. It would be in-synch with his Liquid Courage ability that I suggested thus making it simple to remember and impliment, wouldn't be too powerful (at least I don't think it would be) and would be effective and flavorful.

[Goldstep]

1) Pour a Pint is replaced by Liquid CourageI kinda feel this one, but I think they are trying the fearless. What else could you have it do?
2) Why is he SPD 5?I think it is because they are trying to streamline statlines and it was a very Trollkin statline. I think it needs to get a Bushwhacker statline (+1 Speed, +1 Cmnd) but I can't give a good reason for it.
3) I would love Party Foul to come back.I miss it too, but I can defend this one -- book keeping. You said people in his command range. Who's command range... Keggy is dead. He has none. So now, it's a pulse before you remove the model from the table. He either needs something mild enough to be general army buff "the whole troll army may move 1 inch toward the model that killed keggy, free strikes apply" or only small in who it affects "the model who kills him gains party foul -- additional dice to hit and damage this model for one round" or "the model who drank last turn gets the same effect applied at the start of it's activation, meaning for example Borka gets an extra fury once more after keggy's death"

[Sevwall]

Party Foul -> Borka only. Permanent boosted something. Likely attack rolls.

He just needs a total rethink.

How many people cast Cooler, get any use out of Bumrush, or get any use out of Stumbling Drunk.

He has so much chaff in his rules right now.

[Goldstep]

I'd add to that "Use the headbutt instead of just using Moshpit" but that could be me.

[grim89]

Does anyone else miss his old bomb?

Bounce was great for aiming at big, low defense heavies that borka actually had a chance at hitting and than jumping to a high def caster behind him.

I agree that Party Foul should only affect Borka. After all, they killed his little buddy.

Pour a pint should be a stat buffing ability. +2 STR and -2 DEF would be fine with me. If it still granted them stumbling drunk i wouldn't be upset.

Top Off...ehh, its okay. i wouldnt miss it if it was replaced with somthing else though.

He needs new spells and the feat needs to be tweaked, not really sure how it should be done but it just doesn't feel potent to me.

[skarreslave2]

Just wanted to chime in against all the befuddle hate. Calandra is a very squishie caster, befuddle gives her the tools she needs to open a hole and get to what she wants to kill; if it doesnt work retribution against her is swift and hard. It is her signature spell, how she plays (IMO). She should not lose it. I could agree to a small range reduction(8 inches) since she probably always wants bone grinders with her anyways.

[CerberusPuppy]

Just wanted to chime in against all the befuddle hate. Calandra is a very squishie caster, befuddle gives her the tools she needs to open a hole and get to what she wants to kill; if it doesnt work retribution against her is swift and hard. It is her signature spell, how she plays (IMO). She should not lose it. I could agree to a small range reduction(8 inches) since she probably always wants bone grinders with her anyways.

Yes. Range 8 on Befuddle and let her feat affect damage rolls and tough rolls.

[Loki77515]

I miss it too, but I can defend this one -- book keeping.

Party Foul -> Borka only. Permanent boosted something. Likely attack rolls.
Good points. Well, what if Party Foul gave Borka Terror for the rest of the game and allowed friendly faction warrior models/units within Borka's CMD range to re-roll failed command rolls?

[CerberusPuppy]

My suggestion for Party Foul was +2 SPD, +2 STR and Terror for Borka for one round.

[Silopolis]

Good to see all the rallying around Borka. I want to see some serious work put into who was, in Mk.I, my favorite warlock, win or lose.

I've already feedbacked him, so all I can do now is wait and watch, and encourage everyone who likes Borka to playtest and feedback how you felt. There's enough of us who agree exactly what his problems are (boring, nothing fun for him to do, walking animus/Mosh Pit battery, useless Kegbearer) that I really hope something will be done.

This was a situation where I thought he was ok in Theorymachine but playing him just made me sad. That's the reverse of how I generally like things to go in the Field Test. :)

[rydiafan]

Whats wrong with them honestly? Is it because you think they are bad or you just can't make them work?

They are way too slow and fragile for something that costs that many points. They get shot to ribbons before they can have any impact on the game nine times out of ten.


The KW UA costs too much? Really? Two more models with tough are added and make the unit as a whole even better and 3 points is too much? Why because all the other UA's cost 2?

What the heck are you gibbering about? What does the cost of the Kreil Warrior attachment have to do with Longriders?


When did this Field Test become nothing more than a glorified retarded squabbling bid for power? Oh they got this so we should get it too! Is all I read on here anymore. And its disheartening to go on reading these things and keep my mouth shut about it.

If all you're going to add is random false statements and insults maybe you'd be better off stopping reading, that way it'll be easier for you not to chime in.


Longriders are on the same power level as the rest of the heavy cav in the game.

So, unfieldable? :p

[Cannibalbob]

I think it is because they are trying to streamline statlines and it was a very Trollkin statline. I think it needs to get a Bushwhacker statline (+1 Speed, +1 Cmnd) but I can't give a good reason for it.


It does not streamline or generalize stats at all. All Pygmies share a spd of 6, with the exception of the Keg Carrier. He is the only spd-5 pyg. It makes no sense from a standardization standpoint, nor from an effectiveness standpoint since Borka is spd-6.

It is very much out of place.

[azaminkor]

I am not sure about party foul.

I would suggest these changes:

Borka -
Gain immunity:cold
Gain Drink Deep - When this model begins its activation in B2B with the Keg Carrier, it may heal d3 wounds. If it does either it gains stumbling drunk for one round.
Not the Booze - Once per round if the Keg Carrier is target by and attack and this model is with 2". This model may be automatically hit by the attack instead.

Spells:
Lose bum rush
Gain Smite Cost 2 Rng 6 Target friendly faction warrior model gains Smite on its first normal melee attack. Smite last for one turn.
Change Cooler Cost 2 Rng 8 Offensive Target non-cold immune Model is made stationary for one round.

Keg-
Gain Keep up - If this model is in Kegslayers CMD range when Kegslayer ends his normal advance, this model may advance its current SPD towards Kegslayer.
Gain Liquid Fueled - While this model is in play Kegslayer gains +1 FUR.
Gain Liquid Cuarage (*Action) - RNG 3" Target friendly faction warrior model/unit gains Steady and Fearless for one round. (I really like this version of Liquid Courage)
Gain Bender (*Action) - If this model is B2B with Kegslayer, Kegslayer may discard any number of Fury during it controllers next Maintenance phase.
Lose pour a pint and top off.

I am not sure about the spells. Kind of threw Bender and Not the Booze on there at the last minute.

[countbrass]

Whats wrong with them honestly? Is it because you think they are bad or you just can't make them work? The KW UA costs too much? Really? Two more models with tough are added and make the unit as a whole even better and 3 points is too much? Why because all the other UA's cost 2? When did this Field Test become nothing more than a glorified retarded squabbling bid for power? Oh they got this so we should get it too! Is all I read on here anymore. And its disheartening to go on reading these things and keep my mouth shut about it.

So how many games have YOU played using Longriders? .... or are you just being hypocritical?

[Patuljak]

What I don't understand is all the "this cavalry is on par with other cavalry in the game". So just because PP screwed up with WM cavalry they need to screw up Hordes cavalry too to make it even? Why? Isn't it better that at least one system has functional heavy cavalry, as opposed to cavalry in both systems sucking just because PP doesn't want to make WM players feel unfavoured?

Shut up with that argument, it's stupid beyond words.

[don gumbo]

So how many games have YOU played using Longriders? .... or are you just being hypocritical?


I use Longriders 80% of the games i play both MK I and FT. I use cavalry in 3 of the 6 factions I play. I'm very successful with all my cav units.

[caramelthunder]

I use Longriders 80% of the games i play both MK I and FT. I use cavalry in 3 of the 6 factions I play. I'm very successful with all my cav units.

Can you give us any information on some of your games: opponents army build, tactics, etc? Maybe a couple of MKII battle reports might help. I really want to like my Longriders and maybe I'm just not seeing their worth or just using them incorrectly. I really want to like them because they were one of my favorite units in MKI. So I'd definitely be interested in hearing how they helped you. Thanks!

[don gumbo]

Sure thing i have some notes i took for the FT let me dig them out and i will post them as soon as i can.

[Verjigorm]

What I don't understand is all the "this cavalry is on par with other cavalry in the game". So just because PP screwed up with WM cavalry they need to screw up Hordes cavalry too to make it even? Why? Isn't it better that at least one system has functional heavy cavalry, as opposed to cavalry in both systems sucking just because PP doesn't want to make WM players feel unfavoured?

Shut up with that argument, it's stupid beyond words.

Right. Privateer made a decision to make cavalry less powerful and less prevelant. Which I don't mind, because I don't field alot of cavalry, and I was getting tired of trying to figure out how to beat it at 350-500pts, when there were straight-up retard ombos like Stormlances that were ARM 21 and had 8 wounds. Those stormlances walked around like they were tanks, slaying infantry, jacks and casters at will. That's one example, from one faction, but there were lots of similar abilities depending on which faction it was. Hell, I had steelhead's charging 16" with pathfinder and 2" reach, getting flank on things and dishing out too much damage with backswing.

Now cavalry are fragile enough that they probably won't survive a dedicated counter-charge, they need to be used very carefully to gain full effect, and they're expensive to field. So I see less of them, which is fine by me.

I think Privateer Press made the change for a reason, and i can't just say that it's terrible, because I remember some of the old broken cav combos. I've still gotten good use out of the occasional cavalry unit when I field it, but usually I'm too busy picking up a bunch of different units to throw in a 7pt cavalry unit. instead of cavalry becoming an easy include, you have to build your list around them, which i also like. Gone are the days of throwing in 3 cavalary models because you could'nt think of anything else to use.

[Steamworks]

Having tried out pMadrak out he seems to be missing... something... While I think Carnage is great, it requires a large amount of his resources to use and with his small control area it makes it very risky - if I'm using Carnage then I'm probably not doing anything else that turn. I think he just needs a cheaper troop buffing spell (and Reach dammit! GIVF REACH!) to replace Carnage.

[Sevwall]

No. Replace Stone Fall. Every 5 fury lock that has been adjusted has lost their offensive spell, aside from pMorghoul, who has a good one.

Keep the trend alive and ditch Sure Foot.

[Mutton]

No. Replace Stone Fall. Every 5 fury lock that has been adjusted has lost their offensive spell, aside from pMorghoul, who has a good one.

Keep the trend alive and ditch Sure Foot.

Um, sure, if you insist.

[Sevwall]

What have I done. I've doomed us all.

[Negative9]

I think he just needs a cheaper troop buffing spell (and Reach dammit! GIVF REACH!) to replace Carnage.

Carnage is fine as is mainly because it works on beasts. As much as I would love reach on Madrak, it would be completely broken on him. He literally be able to kill his way through an army forward and backwards. Not like the White Mane or Slaughterborn, because will probably be at mat 11 and pow 18 with extra fury to keep the chain going.

Now I can see eMadrak getting reach and losing the blood token effect as without ricochet it is difficult to gather them and without stonefall it is difficult to use them.

[CerberusPuppy]

Long Riders are not as good as Ferox. The only other heavy cav in Hordes is at least playable. Ulhans and Storm Lances from what I've seen, are at least playable. Long Riders are not playable, they're terrible. They're nothing but giant slow moving fragile targets for 11 points.

I still think you can't count on the KSB aura when talking about Long Riders. We just can't keep them in the bubble all the time.

[StinkyJim]

Long Riders - Either boost the Spd so they're not the slowest cav in the game or give them back their 8 damage boxes.
Winter Troll - Keep him the same but drop him to 4 points - we lack a 4 pt beast.
Borka - no ideas other than he needs something major done - why can't he be our Troop buffing Warlock ?

[mikasa]

Long Riders are not as good as Ferox. The only other heavy cav in Hordes is at least playable. Ulhans and Storm Lances from what I've seen, are at least playable. Long Riders are not playable, they're terrible. They're nothing but giant slow moving fragile targets for 11 points.

I still think you can't count on the KSB aura when talking about Long Riders. We just can't keep them in the bubble all the time.

Now that KSB can run and use it's aura, we actually CAN keep up. The problem is that you need the KSB to function.

I own menites, with whom I use cavalry, They have the same armour and defense, and I get +2 armour beyond the first damage volley every turn, and +1 movement. What I don't get is pow 14 mounts for my impact attacks, which I would love to have. I also don't get to Slam models, and potentially follow up with my rider's attack.

You could argue that my cavalry is tougher and faster but these facts stand :

- They are never up front. They will run out from the back/flank of my army to setup next turn, putting them in arm's way for a turn only (if that)

- They are never used to soak anything. That's not what I pay them for. they give me Highly accurate attacks on thier own, outside of my buffing range. they can cut their way to models I would not otherwise have access to tanks the ride by attacks or impact hits.

What you pay for is utility, not tanks. That's the champion's job =)

[Ravir]

Carnage at a cost of 2 would be a great help to making Madrak make sense. If you're upkeeping surefoot, and you want to cast Carnage, that leaves you with 1 fury. Yes, Carnage is a great spell, but it requires you to get a little too close to the front lines to be left with only 1 fury.

Reach would be great. Backswing and Reach would make him actually dangerous. As is, Madrak generates fewer attacks than any other melee caster in the game. I know, I know, "but with 12 points of support models that's a pow 19 axe, and he's built with that in mind". Does that meant the other warlocks are built with no buffs in mind?

But, I ask for too much. Or do I?

After looking through the whole book, the ONLY other "melee" caster that has neither Reach nor 2 attacks is Rhyas, the Queen of Assassination. Makes me a sad panda, but even more proud of my main man Madrak when he wins.

[Sevwall]

He's one of the few models now with Grevious Wounds but not Arcane Assassin.

I want Arcane Assassin!

WWwwwaaaahhhhh!

[Ravir]

He's one of the few models now with Grevious Wounds but not Arcane Assassin.

I want Arcane Assassin!

WWwwwaaaahhhhh!

Indeed. He's swinging the friggin WORLD ENDER after all. Give somebody (meaning: Madrak) the ability to make a Warmachine caster actually think twice about charging into his face.

[CerberusPuppy]

Now that KSB can run and use it's aura, we actually CAN keep up. The problem is that you need the KSB to function.

I own menites, with whom I use cavalry, They have the same armour and defense, and I get +2 armour beyond the first damage volley every turn, and +1 movement. What I don't get is pow 14 mounts for my impact attacks, which I would love to have. I also don't get to Slam models, and potentially follow up with my rider's attack.

You could argue that my cavalry is tougher and faster but these facts stand :

- They are never up front. They will run out from the back/flank of my army to setup next turn, putting them in arm's way for a turn only (if that)

- They are never used to soak anything. That's not what I pay them for. they give me Highly accurate attacks on thier own, outside of my buffing range. they can cut their way to models I would not otherwise have access to tanks the ride by attacks or impact hits.

What you pay for is utility, not tanks. That's the champion's job =)

But when I try to use the Long Riders as utility, to take a flank for example, they are not within the KSB aura. I don't put them up front. I don't intend for them to soak anything. But it takes time for them to get into position for a decent charge, and while they're doing that they tend to get slaughtered.

[Sevwall]

Thats actually the thing I love about Madrak. He is piss poor at finishing casters and warlocks. He probably needs to boost (7 is not good) and thus he gets 3 boosted to hit attacks. 2 Transfers, or ARM 18, and you are probably safe.

Meh

[Amarel]

Thats actually the thing I love about Madrak. He is piss poor at finishing casters and warlocks. He probably needs to boost (7 is not good) and thus he gets 3 boosted to hit attacks. 2 Transfers, or ARM 18, and you are probably safe.

Meh
Duh, this is why you Stone Fall them first and hope for the Crit. And to think people say you'll never cast it...

(there is sarcasm there, please don't assume otherwise :)).

[petegrrrr]

What have I done. I've doomed us all.

Fist burrowers, then Calandra.... now Madrak?

...wait a minute.....my god....your....your...A CYGNAR INFILTRATOR!!!!!

[Sevwall]

Krill actually.

[YabaBaga]

Naw, he's just trying to tone down Troll stuff so when his Krill Minion Army comes out, it'll be more appealing.

[McDevious]

Krill? Don't recall that name from the fluff...