Continued Testing of Models that we feel are sub-par

[ryanbo724]

While I am not a major voice on these forums like Sevwall, or Pete or ummmhmmm or Mael etc., (sorry if I missed you, just insert your name in to the list), I wanted to make a consolidated post on what we feel still needs some work/tweaks. Whether that be up or down.

I feel for the most part most of our models are fine and will receive the needed tweaks that they need via the feedback given to them. There are also models that just will NOT change no matter how much we gripe/complain/whine about them. I.E. Long Riders and Winter. At the same time, I think there are some units and casters that need a good amount of play testing and feedback in the next month that may just be falling to the way side right now.

Casters:

Borka - with his all over the board abilities to buff troops and beasts, his low FURY stat and high damage output he just seems like a giant mess. Not to mention that in his current state, he should just be one model because the Keg Bearer is an absolute miss on PP's part in my eyes. I think that the change to Xerxis in Skorne is a good sign that warlocks who lack a proper direction will and can be changed to create role for them within the faction. Borka needs help. He needs to be a troop buffer or a beast buffer or a toolbox of utility or something. I personally think that he should be our "assasination" caster. We currently don't have one and I think it is something that trollbloods lack. I don't have any exact fixes or changes for him at this time, I leave that up to people who are better designers/players than me to do that. OK, I will make one small change, let him lose his damage spell all together or give him the 2 FURY knock down spell, it fits his personality better anyway.

pDoomy - still needs work. The return of fortune was very nice and needed. But he still lacks a little. I only have a couple of suggestions for him, that I personally think would make him have a more defined role (not just remove upkeeps like he was only good for in MK I). Let him arc 1 spell a turn through a Dire Troll. This has been talked about and I think it is a great addition to him. Second, lets make him a little hardier, but at the expense of his favorite tools: Dire Trolls. Doomy can transfer to a Dire Troll at any time. I think MK I eKaya had this for all her warbeasts. Make it the same, but only for Dires. It makes him more survivable, but it makes his hardy Dire Trolls very easy to kill if you get to Doomy himself. We can even make it so he still has to pay for it, but that even if a beast is full, he can still transfer to it. Lastly, make it so he has +7 beast points. It easier to bring 2 heavies with him if he had an extra beast point. This to me makes him want to run a couple of heavies, he has denial, a damage spell, he can play at the back or more towards the front with his ability to transfer to dires. Maybe its OP, I don't know, I am just throwing out suggestions. Maybe he needs a battlegroup spell for Dires/Beasts?

pMadrak - Lose Stone Fall. It will NEVER be cast. His axe gives him a magic attack at range already. Replace it with a different spell to help his army. Again, I don't know what to give him, but it's just a waste of print right now.

Grissell - Her feat needs CRTL range or pulse back. She's fine otherwise.

Calandra - Improve her feat and she is fine. She is powerfull, but her feat is a joke where it stands now. One re-roll of a 1 or 2 for both attack and damage rolls and I think you have a feat. As it stands right now, it is a joke of a feat. Feats should be feared a little, hers right now is NOT.

eDoomy, eMaddy and Grim I have no problems with and if they get any tweaks, I think they will be warranted and fine.

Beasts

I have no problem with any of them. They are all pretty good and I can see the points cost and justification for all of them. The winter is still a little lack luster in my mind, but he is the only one.

Units

Champions, KSB, Kriel Warriors, Bushwackers, Runeshapers and the Thumper are all fine in my book.

Scattergunners - Need something. Right now they are just boring. Give them an order or something that at least makes them more interesting.

Burrowers - I personally don't care for the unit, but with the change they have endured, then need something else. I like the gunfighter idea, it makes placing them within 5" of the marker easier.

Fennblades - I personally think they should be the filler between Champions and Kriel Warriors. Give them some different/more/better abilities and price them in the 5/8 range just for variety in units.

Long Riders - the much maligned cavalry. I personally think they need 1 thing. If they are going to be the toughest and slowest cavalry, then give them each 3 more wounds. Done. I will field them for 7/11. As they are right now, they will never see the table again.

Solos

The Hero, Elder, Chronicler and Fellcaller are all very very good.

Kriel Warrior UA - needs more for 3 points or dropped to 2. I have heard all the arguments, but for me personally, 4+ tough for one round isn't enough.

Horthal - Now I will say, I haven't run him, but the reason I don't is because for 5 points I will take a beast instead of him every time. That and I find our cavalry worthless. He needs something to make him worth putting on the board. He isn't bad, he's just not worth it in my opinion.

The reason I am writing this is because I found myself during the field test finding a list that I liked with models that I liked and synergy that I liked and just started to play that over and over so I could improve with it. By doing that I have neglected the models in our faction that may still need some tweaks. Being married with 2 children makes my gaming time very scarce and precious to me, so when I do get to play a game I didn't want to waste it on models that I didn't care for their rules. I wanted to play a list that I thought was fun and competitive. So, I am calling on the rest of the forum to remember to keep testing the models that aren't "good" in your eyes so that we can't get the proper tweaks and changes made to them.

Keep testing the models that you feel aren't good and feedback on them, don't forget about them like I did because you just couldn't find a reason to field them.

[ryanbo724]

See Sevwalls post "Time to step it up". I think his is more about what Skorne got and we don't have, but the list of models and abilities that need help are almost the exact same between our two posts.

I feel pretty good about myself that I have similar thoughts to Sevwall. :D

[Sevwall]

Yours is reasoned, mine is a whine.

I do notice a trend of forum-feedbacked 5 fury casters lacking an offensive spell. They should just drop offensive spells from out 5 fury casters...

[Brettman008]

They should just drop offensive spells from out 5 fury casters...

I'll second that motion. Most offensive spells are 3 fury and with a fury stat of 5 you're almost always going to want to boost to hit. Since you're dropping 4 fury on a target it is safe to assume you need it taken out, as such you're probably boosting damage too leaving you with no fury left to support your army or transfer.

[Invader Larb]

I posted in the other thread, but on your list Griom's Snare Gun needs to be addressed.

[MinionOfCthulhu]

Good points all around, especially about the Long Riders. I have a soft spot for them. I need to test them out still (hooray for the extension!), but on paper they're rather expensive. A health boost would be nice.

[Invader Larb]

They are slow because they ride buffalo, but are not any tougher because they ride buffalo. It really is a problem. I'm finding when it took an enemy two attacks to take out a Long Rider, they now can do it in one.

[ozmo]

Offensive spells on 5 fury casters are terrible.
The only one I'd really want to have is Cataclysm
Borka with Cataclysm would be a thing of beauty.

[ozmo]

I disagree, if they are slower because they ride a hulking animal they should also benefit from having this animal soak up hits.

I would expect troll cav being slowest to be at least one of the following
1) Hit hardest by far
2) Have the most armour
3) Have more hit boxes.
4) Be cheaper

Currently what we get does not seem good compared to other factions.
Maybe battle driven would make them worth it.

[Invader Larb]

I have three suggestions for Borka's spell:

Hoarfrost - same spell as Cooler for same cost, except AOE 3 insteaf of spray
Hex Blast - this matches his Shamn background and would give him some anti-upkeep ability
Eliminator - again an AOE, and makes excellent sense with his concept.

[Toothy]

I like the idea of Ricochet being a spell on Madrak instead of Stonefall.

[TimBuckToo]

I like the idea of Ricochet being a spell on Madrak instead of Stonefall.

Ricochet for cost 1 maybe? It's a single attack. Maybe 2. Would be fantastic if it was an upkeep.

[Steamworks]

I have three suggestions for Borka's spell:

Hoarfrost - same spell as Cooler for same cost, except AOE 3 insteaf of spray
Hex Blast - this matches his Shamn background and would give him some anti-upkeep ability
Eliminator - again an AOE, and makes excellent sense with his concept.

I'll take Fury please.

[Waaargh]

On the topic of Stone Fall I was about to say it can be used against a bunch of light infantry, just move close so even when it scatters it will hit something. Then the Hero and Axer came to mind.

Out with Stone Fall. It wasn't used in (dare I say) mkI and it isn't used in the FT.

On the topic of Grim, have people in general the experience with him that he works? I haven't used him in the FT, but have a strong faction envy itching. I can't help but to compare him to other ranged casters and locks. Well, the Snare Gun should still be fixed, or go the way of Stone Fall* ;)

Edit: @ PG_Steamworks, because we have Rage it is difficult to fit in Fury. And yes Fury would be an improvement in almost every case.



*It's away if you hadn't guessed it.

[Silopolis]

I just realized (thinking on Borka as our "assassination caster") that Borka should be our "tricky" caster.

He always kinda was. Kriel Warriors flying at you, taking hits, getting up, and whomping you into the dirt. Maulers tossing Borka at you, who then brushes off the dust and crushes your face with his giant mace. Winter Trolls actually being taken, to dangle the Kegbearer out there and DARE you to attack him. Action! Adventure! Excitement! Woo!

What if, against intuition, Borka operated almost like a big, fighty, Cryx caster? Unpredictable charge lanes, sudden bursts of Acrobatics from cheap infantry, beasts stumbling through single-wound infantry and eating people left and right. And, give the risk-reward to Borka's controller, as well. Stumbling Drunk is a terrible idea, but it's in the right direction. Get the beast drunk; roll a die: on a 1, the beast is knocked down. 2-5, the beast acts normally, but with boosted damage. On a 6, the beast gains Pathfinder, boosted attack and boosted damage. That's a terrible example, but it's in the direction.

I never took Borka thinking he'd win me the game. I took him for fun. Borka should be the Hordes equivalent of Drunken Boxing: Unpredictable, deadly, and extremely entertaining to watch.

Our "Tricky" warlock.

[Sevwall]

I was actually thinking he should lost a spell. Then give the 'spell' to Keggy as an action.
I was thinking warrior-only Fury. But I'm insane sometimes, and Fury + Rage is quite insane if you think about it.

Just feedback your thoughts and reasons. Enough of it, and they will get the idea that we all think he is not quite right.

[Negative9]

Perhaps, lose cooler for Battle Lust.

[Goldstep]

Part of why he still has "Cooler" is that is is beer related.

Anything that can be fluffy like that or are we willing to say, fluff is overrated.

(Personally, I'd think reinvented Cooler should be more like ice on wounds than an offensive spray.)

[Silopolis]

Part of why he still has "Cooler" is that is is beer related.

Anything that can be fluffy like that or are we willing to say, fluff is overrated.

(Personally, I'd think reinvented Cooler should be more like ice on wounds than an offensive spray.)

Borka's all about the fluff for me. Though, it's not too hard.

With the stuff Borka likely eats, even Wind Rush is within fluff for him. ;)

[Steamworks]

Edit: @ PG_Steamworks, because we have Rage it is difficult to fit in Fury. And yes Fury would be an improvement in almost every case.

Yeah, but it's hard to squeeze in the right spells since we have ludicrous amounts of buffs. If I really had to sit down and think about it I'd start looking at Battle Lust or *cough* Engine of Destruction (edit: need to check if Engine of Destruction would stack with Rage, not sure if the EoD STR buff over-rides Rage) for Borka. Another suggestion that's been made around here was if Cooler gave Immunity: Cold and Critical Freeze for a turn? However, as I do not own Borka (yet) I can't really comment on how he plays and prefer to leave that to the likes of Mael who seems to play him a lot.

I really like the idea of ditching the nukes from the 5 Fury warlocks unless they have another means to make their spells more accurate. Replacing these spells with some sort of utility spell is much more appealing.

[ChronoCrusher]

I just realized (thinking on Borka as our "assassination caster") that Borka should be our "tricky" caster.

He always kinda was. Kriel Warriors flying at you, taking hits, getting up, and whomping you into the dirt. Maulers tossing Borka at you, who then brushes off the dust and crushes your face with his giant mace. Winter Trolls actually being taken, to dangle the Kegbearer out there and DARE you to attack him. Action! Adventure! Excitement! Woo!

What if, against intuition, Borka operated almost like a big, fighty, Cryx caster? Unpredictable charge lanes, sudden bursts of Acrobatics from cheap infantry, beasts stumbling through single-wound infantry and eating people left and right. And, give the risk-reward to Borka's controller, as well. Stumbling Drunk is a terrible idea, but it's in the right direction. Get the beast drunk; roll a die: on a 1, the beast is knocked down. 2-5, the beast acts normally, but with boosted damage. On a 6, the beast gains Pathfinder, boosted attack and boosted damage. That's a terrible example, but it's in the direction.

I never took Borka thinking he'd win me the game. I took him for fun. Borka should be the Hordes equivalent of Drunken Boxing: Unpredictable, deadly, and extremely entertaining to watch.

Our "Tricky" warlock.

I like this idea...keep'em coming!

Love the Drunken Boxing reference!

[ColdYinTiger]

I think he is our assassin caster, most of his spells and abilities are all about clearing the path to start pounding away on the other caster. I've said this many many times on here and in feedback(I feel like a broken record) He doesn't need an attack spell. Just give him a battle group spell or a troop buff spell. Then give his kegger a nice troop buff. Bring back liqour fueled too!


They should give Borka an ability called "Barroom Brawler" If he is slammed or thrown by a friendly model, he may activate as normal, and not be knocked down. It keeps the Borka Bomb going from before and isn't overpowered at all, and goes with his theme of being a drunk.

[Warsmith]

So I just feedbacked a lot of underpowered models. Let's keep it going. We need to rally together and play, test, and feedback like mad all weekend long so we can see results in the next update! Trollblood Kriels UNITE!!

[Ballasar]

The Engine of destruction on Borka idea sounds like it could work. I'd change it to Beer Fueled Engine of Destruction though.

[kakita]

As long as we're brainstorming and since we talked about Borka getting a xerxis reboot, how about borka losing cooler, keggy losing his star actions, but keggy gaining stories? Like a custom chronicler?

You could fluff it such that keggy tells stories over a round of beer. And he can't stack with a chronicler.

This makes borka a goodtroop buffer, but ties it to a relatively squishy model.

But: too much like grissel?

[Spineshank]

How about giving Borka one or all of these:

1. Maybe another attack, some kinda of punch with crit Knockdown or a Def debuff?

2. Bump him up to 6 Fury

3. Give him Battle Lust, or some type of Battlegroup buff +2 to mat/rat for one round.

Let the Keg carrier upkeep one of his spells for free. Bring back Party Foul and let him keep Pour a Pint.

Would that make him to crazy? I really dont have to much time to playtest so I am not to sure those changes would work.

[bakaryu]

What if the Keg Carrier's * action allowed an animus cast by Borka on target friendly faction warrior model to affect the rest of his unit?

[Invader Larb]

That would be insane. Why wouldn't we Rage an entire KW unit every round?

[bakaryu]

Would it truly be insane? We would have someone capable of giving us Snipe on a whole unit, or the equivalent of Fury on a unit, or the equivalent of Furious Charge on a unit.

Considering that as Fury 5 warlocks go, Borka doesn't have much going for him at the moment except that he has the highest P+S of all trollblood locks and I think the second highest of all (after eThagrosh).

[Goldstep]

I'm fear it is a little much -- here's why:

I spend four points on a unit of 6 Fennblades. I spend two fury on a buff. They charge say... the megalith.
Now, so far not much to talk.

Because they got a 2 fury buff, they are P+S 15, they have reach, 6 people hit the megalith. Average damage -- 36. Megalith doesn't have that many boxes.

Yes, you used a Keg, 2 fury on Borka and a 4 point unit, but that's the toughest thing the circle has... and I don't THINK it is just corner case.

Yes, a 4pt unit should be able to off a tough heavy in the right situation. As is right now, if you add on the Stone scribe chronicler, a troll with reach for the story to work and a stone scribe elder's strength stone warp. See the disparity?

I'd agree that giving a whole unit an animus doesn't feel like much, but I'd say it's more like it swings too far. Borka goes from third teir troll caster to the first tier almost instantly knocking other first tiers to second and making other factions second teir into third. Goal is to not have third tier casters, not to just get rid of troll ones.


I'll say this though... my fear may only be cornercase, but I can't even talk someone here into testing them. If you test him and he isn't replacing Madrak, eMadrak, and the like wholesale, feedback it. I sure wouldn't be disappointed to be wrong here.