Dawnguard Sentinels?

[thecsharian]

I've noticed a couple of positive comments about the Sentinels popping up lately, and I'm curious as to peoples overall experiences in running them... as I never have.

TBH this is motivated after reading Festablo's Legions of the Dawn list thread (http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?t=2057), and wondering how 'useable' a tier 2 list could ever be.

So, how have people found Sentinels to play? Are they quite a hard unit? Is running two units in tandem workable? How much (ranged/invictor?) support do they need? What works well with them and what doesn't?

[knight_actual]

Mat 7 is not nearly as hot as I thought it would be.

vengeance makes this unit pretty hard to avoid.

Other than that, pow 12 weapon masters are pretty hard to say no to.

[isawatsuke]

its actually worrisome when a unit like this isnt an auto-include. If i was running cygnar these guys would be in every list. However in retribution you have to compete with mhsf and invictors. Recently ive run mhsf and sentinels since i find that with invictors + mhsf i have too much shooting and lose to stealth.

[Sansker]

I will test the Sentinels with UA in my next game in a Garryth list.

Why did i put them in?

Here are my thougts:


1. The combination of Vengeance and Mirage gives them an amazing threat range for a SPD 5 unit. Not to mention the two possible attacks at MAT 7 with weapon master. Also the reposition via Mirage lets them charge in any direction and gets them out of melee if you don´t fight reach troops.

2. Sentinels seem quite hard, with defensive line ARM going up to 17, so that most blasts will not kill them and only a directly hit model will be killed. And that again triggers Vengeance.

3. MAT 7, Weapon Master + Death Sentence from Garryth seems quite scarry in my book. Can be wrong on that, but it´s still worth mentioning.

These seem the main points for me to take them in my list.

And here are my worrys about the Sentinels:


1. DEF 12 is nothing to write home about. Ranged troops will hit them often, even more if they can get the aiming bonus.

2. High power thresher attacks (e.g. Yuri, Harrower, Tartarus, Axer) will negate the bonus of defensive line and kill more guys than you want.

3. Their low base speed of 5, which will reduce the overall speed of your force.

There are certainly more pros and cons for the Sentinels, but these are my main thoughts.

Hope i could help.

Regards
S.

[Demeritus]

I like them. Personally I find they do more for me than Invictors. They hit hard and with Vengeance it gives them that extra something. For some reason, people are more concerned with Invictors and yet these guys tend to perform better for me and since they are less focused on they do more.

[FranzGrenstein]

I LOVE sentinels especially with Garryth they have worked so well for me.

Five inches of movement and a swing before they activate is just sexy.

On a side note they don?t leave the barn with out the UA, if they are the core infantry they will have a soulless; because if they are getting casted at the arc node or the caster will be within 1-3? of the welcoming blades of the sentinels. And don?t get me started on death sentence with these bad boys. BTW I usually run MHSF+UA with them in Garryth lists.

I have not run them with Big V, but I look forward to IR on them. And running 2 full units of them with UAs <shudder> (excuse me I have to compose myself. Deep Breaths)

In regard sentinel/invictor I played 500 MK1 list against Karchev, I had a maxed out unit of invictors and min unit of sentinels; I worked pretty good IR on the invictors move them up the board taking shots of opportunity. I used the sentinels as a counter charge unit.

I can see running a min unit up a flank in a Ravyn list maybe jack marshaling a gorgon taking advantage of pronto.

I am not really sure if they synergize with Rahn, or Kae lists, but who can?t use a Pow 12 weapon masters with reach and the access to vengeance.


Edit: If I could address two of Sansker points.


2. High power thresher attacks (e.g. Yuri, Harrower, Tartarus, Axer) will negate the bonus of defensive line and kill more guys than you want.

3. Their low base speed of 5, which will reduce the overall speed of your force.

3. You will be moving 10? a turn (maybe 12 *mirage*) since you are not shooting any thing, and you are still getting the arm bonus of defensive line because it?s not an order.

2. These are the problem for any single wound high armor unit; it is the weakness of defensive line and shield wall. I will add to the things to watch out for any thing with anatomical precision, i.e. daughters, blood runners, the master tormentor is especially disgusting kill on sight when you can.

[FearLord]

These are the problem for any single wound high armor unit; it is the weakness of defensive line and shield wall. I will add to the things to watch out for any thing with anatomical precision, i.e. daughters, blood runners, the master tormentor is especially disgusting kill on sight when you can.

They also have problems with Widow makers and decent sprays (Repenters suitably buffed for instance...)

I also love them with Garryth for the additional threat range mirage can give them and because I favour not taking too many jacks with Garryth...

[thecsharian]

I am not really sure if they synergize with Rahn, or Kae listsTo be fair, I don't think anything actually really synergises with Rahn (or Kael)



Wow, I'm surprised at the amount of positive feedback.
The Vyros tier army are starting to sound more and more appealing.

[Jice_]

To be fair, I don't think anything actually really synergises with Rahn (or Kael)


I'm not sure thats too accurate. Kaelyssa's feat is WAY more usefull to them and invictors that it is to MHSF. As well banishing Ward is a solid choice for them just stopping spells at them outright, keeping them away from Heavy damage spells or armor reduction spells. (Parasite is scary,:/)

With Rahn you can pretty much gurantee they'll always get the charge off which means the UA isn't as important so you could take a max unit for 9 and keep your costs low, and they wont fall behind since most everything is going to be shooting anyway. Probably not as usefull as the Halbadiers for Ranked attacks, but certainly harder hitting. As well with all Rahn's templates and Slamming, they'll beable to survive the onslaught if things start to scater with Arm 17 and they'd be the perfect finishers to things you slam.

[werecat]

Sentinels are, far and away, my favorite Retribution unit. Full stop.

[FearLord]

Sentinels are, far and away, my favorite Retribution unit. Full stop.

Hmmm how useful ;) Can we ask why? Or is it a secret? :p

[FranzGrenstein]

They also have problems with Widow makers and decent sprays (Repenters suitably buffed for instance...)

I also love them with Garryth for the additional threat range mirage can give them and because I favour not taking too many jacks with Garryth...

I have had units of dawnguard in b2b w/ ir disappear to troll scattergunners. And as for widowmakers that’s why I have Narn.:D Then again POM, and Skorn are popular where I play.


As well banishing Ward is a solid choice for them just stopping spells at them outright, keeping them away from Heavy damage spells or armor reduction spells. (Parasite is scary,:/)


Soulless don't leave home without it.

[Jice_]

Soulless don't leave home without it.

That's the point, is you wont have to take the soulless so you can bring more Assassins/Arcanists/Ghosts.

[werecat]

Hmmm how useful ;) Can we ask why? Or is it a secret? :p


Do I really have to answer that question?

Mat 7, pow 12, reach, weapon master, defensive line and vengeance?

Seems pretty obvious to me ;)

[moz]

Don't forget drive pronto on a re-rollable CMD10.

Sentinels are slick, the full unit makes it into 9/10 of my lists and are often marshalling as many Myrmidons as I can justify. Lately been running 2 Manticore's marshalled to them which is just crazy fun. Cover fire early game, then jump 15" across the board to connect with some Pow 20's (or 25, jeez) from arcanist assistance.

[isawatsuke]

just used sentinels with garryth today and its one of the best combos ive seen. One or two die you get to move up 5 take a whack at something then charge later. im probably going to change my usual line up to sentinels +mhsf instead mhsf+invictors. Unless of course i use ravvyn cause i like mah range 18 guns.

[thecsharian]

just a clarification query.

People have mentioned getting a free (5 inch) advance if a model in the unit gets killed... but doesn't vengeance only allow a 3 inch move?
(not that an extra 3 inches isn't handy)

[CeltKhan]

They're running Garryth and putting Mirage on the unit.

[thecsharian]

...that makes sense

(**shakes head at people who don't play tiers lists**)

[isawatsuke]

If you activate the 2 inch mirage first then the vengance gets a role change from a "retaliatory" strike to something that you can move around in and target the models you want. I played against a garryth tier 4 with my garryth no tier an while you do get free points (lol free nayl) limiting yourself to only magehunters kinda limits what you can do. I had a unit of mage hunters myself and assasins and the garryth tier really struggles against stealth. Cant imagine going up against cryx with it.

Wierdly enough my opponent said that tier 4 garryth lists couldnt include 3 mage hunter commanders so 2 of his 3 mage unter units were ua less. Is this true? i thought the tier fixed the ua restriction?

[Jice_]

Wierdly enough my opponent said that tier 4 garryth lists couldnt include 3 mage hunter commanders so 2 of his 3 mage unter units were ua less. Is this true? i thought the tier fixed the ua restriction?

It is true. Each aditional MHSF unit adds an assassin not a UA, so the UA is still limited by it's FA 1, while the assassins can be 2 over the amount fo MHSF unit in the army.

It's Ravyn's army where they become UA: U and Kaelyssa's were you get one for free reguardless of FA.

[CrimsonGuard]

If you activate the 2 inch mirage first then the vengance gets a role change from a "retaliatory" strike to something that you can move around in and target the models you want.

isn't it the other way around? First Vengeance, and after that the 2 inch from Mirage?

[FranzGrenstein]

isn't it the other way around? First Vengeance, and after that the 2 inch from Mirage?

Correct, the wording on vengence says it happens a phase earlier, than the mirage move. But both are still before the main phase happens.

[moz]

Which is a better order of operations for the RoS player in my opinion. Vengeance move 3", whack some stuff for free, Mirage place 2" to disengage and prepare for the upcoming charge order.

[DarkLegacy]

Sentinels with Garryth are just gravy. I was a fan of his tier list until Haight really got me thinking about putting the Sentinels in my lists.

They hit hard, Vengeance is great, and they do love having a Soulless or two in the unit to prevent spells like Befuddle or Rebuke from getting to them without a bunch of work.

[Nutcase168]

I'm a big fan of the sentinels. With the 3 casters I runs (Vyros, Garryth and Rahn) each one give them something great.

MAT 7 reach, P+S 12 weaponmasters are fantastic. Add in the UA for vengeance and they're very solid on thier own.

With Vyros, ARM 19 while in defensive line makes a lot of stuff bounce off. Garryth makes them faster with mirage and Rahn says you can't charge them.

I've gotten so used to them that I prefer them over our halberdiers for the better mat and hitting power.

[PMAvers]

Gotta love 'em.

Especially after the last game I played where a full unit + UA (With Vyros, so they had the armor buff, so they were ARM 19 all the time) just ate two Kodiaks and a unit of Winterguard for breakfast. There was only three or four after the second Kodiak died, but damn.

Making sure they survive to contact with the enemy is the tricky part. What I wouldn't give for a +DEF boosting spell.

[KaalTheWanderer]

Sentinels are amazing.

Once your opponents figure out how amazing they are you can expect the officer to hit the most wanted list , post haste. I try to keep the officer as far from the unit as humanly possible (10inches!:) )

Although, recently with so many threatening critters popping up in a RoS army (mage hunters, etc.) there seems to be a lot more thats that ends up in my opponents threat priority.

I just took part in a tourney that was won with sentinals as my MVPs.

[elvenlovemachine]

take them with vyros it makes one of the slowest units in our army one of the fatsest with mobility though mirage does the same and you can even be placed out of combat as place effetcs do not trigger free stricks. i like the idea of putting them with vyros and rahn casting polarity shield meaning no one can charge them in their front arc of 360

[Pinegulf]

Isn't 'Battlegroup' defined as warcaster and the myrmidions under he's/her control? If this is the case then polarity + Hawk's eyes don't work on sentinels.

[Jice_]

Isn't 'Battlegroup' defined as warcaster and the myrmidions under he's/her control? If this is the case then polarity + Hawk's eyes don't work on sentinels.

Right on one wrong on the other.

Bird's eye is battlegroup only.
Polarity Shield is Model/Unit.

[werecat]

Isn't 'Battlegroup' defined as warcaster and the myrmidions under he's/her control? If this is the case then polarity + Hawk's eyes don't work on sentinels.

Neither does Mobility.

Seriously dude. BATTLEGROUP: The warcaster, and the jacks he controls. That's it.

Hordes Field test rules, pg 41. I believe it's the same page for the Warmachine FT. Read up my friend. You're doing your opponents a disservice.

[Ghyrrshyld]

I'm really liking the Sentinels a lot. Their inclusion keeps me from running tiered lists unfortunately though.

[RetributionBomb]

I hate so much how the Vengeance ability is Granted and not a Tactic. Since we don't have a mini-feat youd think they would make it a Tactic. Ugh it pisses me off when you waste points on the damn UA and they die at the first chance.

[Redphantasm]

I hate so much how the Vengeance ability is Granted and not a Tactic. Since we don't have a mini-feat youd think they would make it a Tactic. Ugh it pisses me off when you waste points on the damn UA and they die at the first chance.

With an extra 11 guys and ever reason to be in B2B how are you getting him killed?

I mean, if you just run at the enemy, then yeah, you're going to die. But officers dont lead charges, volunteers lead charges.

[RetributionBomb]

Defense 12 Arm 17 isn't exactly the most survivable thing out there...

Also there is so many damn things that make me regret sticking to base to base half the time I don't even bother.

Between Threshering/Getting more attacks Lord of the Feasts, Man Hunters, Any Spray, High Powered AoEs it seems like the whole ability of Defensive line is more of a trick to make us clump them together so our enemies have easier time killing all of them.

[KaalTheWanderer]

I'm telling you. You gotta keep the officer as far back humanly possible.

[Redphantasm]

Defense 12 Arm 17 isn't exactly the most survivable thing out there...

Also there is so many damn things that make me regret sticking to base to base half the time I don't even bother.

Between Threshering/Getting more attacks Lord of the Feasts, Man Hunters, Any Spray, High Powered AoEs it seems like the whole ability of Defensive line is more of a trick to make us clump them together so our enemies have easier time killing all of them.

Are you always this negative? If so I recommend you not bring the officer, you will only wear yourself silly thinking of all the ways he shall die.

[werecat]

Are you always this negative? If so I recommend you not bring the officer, you will only wear yourself silly thinking of all the ways he shall die.

Makes me wonder why some people play the factions they do... I sure wouldn't play Retribution if I hated it that bad.

Luckily, I'm smitten with Retribution, so it's all good :)

[Devilsquid]

It's all aobut Threat Saturation. Sure, if they gun for your Officer, then they may be putting themselves in a potion where they're over extended, so your invictors can lay waste. Or your jacks can get a shot off. Or your Mage Hunter can go snicker snack.

Does the officer dying suck? Yeah, but I like bringing him just because it causes my opponents to react to his presence on the field.

[MetalStorm]

Defense 12 Arm 17 isn't exactly the most survivable thing out there...

Also there is so many damn things that make me regret sticking to base to base half the time I don't even bother.

Between Threshering/Getting more attacks Lord of the Feasts, Man Hunters, Any Spray, High Powered AoEs it seems like the whole ability of Defensive line is more of a trick to make us clump them together so our enemies have easier time killing all of them.

You realise that they can be run in mini bricks right..., One Spray may get one clump but the rest will tear the offending Unit/Model into tiny chunks, simply run them in smaller three man triangles.

X = Trooper
O = Officer
S = Standard


XX.......XX........XX
X.........X..........X

...........XS...........
............O...........

SEE!, witness as i harness the power of rules and SCIENCE!(tm) to make my officer stay away from the fighting and protected while at the same time keeping him within smacking and vengeance ranges for the following turn. Using this tired and true method also provides ARM 17 and with the natural 5 Wounds to our Officer makes him a tough cookie to crack. Ont top of this his CMD 10 means they have the best CMD radius to work with this side of Kriel Warriors + UA.

[FranzGrenstein]

Don’t forget the soulless, which is usually to 5” to the rear of the officer. ;)

[DarkLegacy]

Inviolable Resolve + B2B + back of the squad. If you don't know how to protect your leaders from attacks from MK 1, start learning now! ARM 19 will only die to a direct shot. AOE, unless boosted, has very little chance of killing him. Bring a soulless in the group to prevent spells from hitting them too.

[siridar]

I like to keep one or two Sentinels up front while keeping the others 4 inches back. If I know there are sprays involved then I might not try this, but it works often enough. This gives my opponent something to think about. The two front Sentinels are basically used as Vengeance bait. Sure I might lose a few to ranged attacks, but there's usually just enough left to really make my opponent wince.

[Lanz]

I love my sentinels. Reach + Pow12 + Weaponmaster makes mincemeat of just about anything. With the UA it's a whopping 12 models in the squad, with vengeance. However, I find them to be a bit easy to kill, even with their B2B bonus. I get the best out of them when I use them with Vyros and put Inviolable Resolve on them. Once they get to arm 19, they become scary-hard to deal with, since at that armor AoEs have almost no chance of hurting them. With their numbers, sheer toughness, and raw power, they can just grind through some of the worst punishment, and still get out on the otherside with enough of them left to make a mess of what's there. They are kinda comparable to having 2 squads of Knights Exemplar.

[masleth]

I've gotta get a set. I've recently started playing trollbloods, and thus have started to learn to play melee. I love my champions so much, I've been hunting for something to take on that role in my Ret army. Sentinels are the closest thing Ret has. Now I just need something similar for my Cygnar (yeah, right).

[parksd70]

You realise that they can be run in mini bricks right..., One Spray may get one clump but the rest will tear the offending Unit/Model into tiny chunks, simply run them in smaller three man triangles.

X = Trooper
O = Officer
S = Standard


XX.......XX........XX
X.........X..........X

...........XS...........
............O...........

SEE!, witness as i harness the power of rules and SCIENCE!(tm) to make my officer stay away from the fighting and protected while at the same time keeping him within smacking and vengeance ranges for the following turn. Using this tired and true method also provides ARM 17 and with the natural 5 Wounds to our Officer makes him a tough cookie to crack. Ont top of this his CMD 10 means they have the best CMD radius to work with this side of Kriel Warriors + UA.

In the defense of RetributionBomb, I have witnessed firsthand as he did pretty much what you're showing. Small groups of Sentinels used to take advantage of D-Line but avoid AOEs and sprays. Unfortunately for him, a few Blackclad sprays and Feast attacks later and the "rest of the unit left behind to deal with the enemy" isn't remotely capable of destroying anything.

[karn987]

With Garryth, I would say these guys are a 100% must include. Mirage on them is just amazingly gross and you really can't beat mat 7 p&s 12 weapon masters.

We just don't have a real infantry buffer for a caster yet, that's why these guys arent getting as much praise and people arent devided on their usefulness like the MHSF so they dont get as much attention.

[RetributionBomb]

In the defense of RetributionBomb, I have witnessed firsthand as he did pretty much what you're showing. Small groups of Sentinels used to take advantage of D-Line but avoid AOEs and sprays. Unfortunately for him, a few Blackclad sprays and Feast attacks later and the "rest of the unit left behind to deal with the enemy" isn't remotely capable of destroying anything.

If you're thinking of the game vs Mohsar that was Invictors.

I've been fielding Sentinels more and more, and as long as you keep the Officer safe, they are actually a solid unit. I take back what I said, I like them a lot. Although I still feel Defensive Line is weak, as all it does is protect them from Blast Damage.. which their already innate Armor 15 protects them from.

[parksd70]

Well put, after that lucky little Sentinel pasted my Angel. Your uppance will come!

[RetributionBomb]

Well put, after that lucky little Sentinel pasted my Angel. Your uppance will come!

They also have an Aura of "My God Why the hell did I roll snake eyes and then a 3"TM.