Is it only me - problems with heavy jacks

[Garth]

Hi!

I realised in the last time more and more that I miss the hitting power to kill heavy jacks. I don't talk about one or 2 heavy jacks here, but abour 4 or more at 35 points.

Since we realised that Hordes (except trolls and I don't know the new skorne enough) has problems against heavy jacks we started spamming them. I talk about 4 Crusaders here or 4 Ironclads. With self suffient casters, so that it is not important if you loose the jacks or not.

For example:

Your opponent fields 2 Crusaders, 1 Vanquisher, 1 avatar and Reznik + 2 choirs, +2 vassals + something else.

How are you going to take that down ? Go just for the caster ? Reznik is hard to kill, he doesn' have to spend so much focus and he is behind a jack wall.
So you have to get trough the jacks. Yeah, you get the first strike. And perhaps you can ignore enliven thanks to shooting the jacks first (what is not allowed because of the choir most of the time).

To get trough a menoth jack you need a Carnivean or Typhon. Let's say you play both...this means 2 dead jacks. In the next turn both of your heavy beasts are dead. You lost your fury producers, he lost 2 unimportant jacks. He lost 2 jacks, you lost 23 points.

Other heavy beasts would be Angels. An Angel charging a heavy jack deals 14 damage (thrust) + 5 damage (new attack, boosted damage). So you need 2 Angels to take one jack down.

Legionnaries ? pow 11 normally, not enough against jacks.
Incubi ? pow 14, sounds better.

But the problem is: at 35 points I take some beasts and then have rarely the space for all other stuff I want.
I think that swordsmen might be an answer to many jacks. Swordsmen + Incubi for example. But this is my last hope.


Yeah if you take E-Thag + 2 Heavys you can charge in, kill 3 of the warjacks (one with E-Thag, one with each other) and use the feat to criplle the last one and close the way between E-Thag and Reznik.

But what for example will you do with Rhyas ? SHe normally only has one heavy. I think about swordsmen again.

What will you do with E-Lylyth or Lylyth ? Parasite and bulls eye alone don't work against heavy jacks

Saeryn would have good chances. Charge in, ignore heavy jacks thanks to feat, win game :-).

Absylvonia: 2 heavy beasts mean 2 dead warjacks. Not mure. She can't help here I fear.

So if you take away some of our casters (E-Thag, Saeryn) what is your solution against this ?
The problem I see: Our beasts are too expensive. Or we miss something really hard hitting that is no beasts. Or I make it wrong ;-)


This was just a problem I had sometimes. Especially with E-Lylyth, Rhyas and pLylyth. Well our 5 fury warlocks...

[Soulblighter]

Ive had the same problem. I attribute it mostly to the fact that Legion doesnt have a cheap brawler in the 8 or 9 point range. Our cheapest brawler is the Carnivean at 11 points. Its really hard to compete with Crusaders when the cheapest model you have that can go toe-to-toe with a Crusader is double the points cost.

[nachtnebel]

Without eThag, Saeryn and maybe Vayl ..... I don't think we can handle more than 2 heavy jacks.

If we don't play certain warlocks an face a list with 3+ heavy jacks it seems that the only thing we can do is to go for the enemy caster. Everything we have that can destroy a jack is more expensive and will die to whatever comes afterwards.

[Defenstrator]

This is the reason that I think eThag is currently our best warlock. Even with his large base he's the best closer, able to kill other warlocks/warcasters and hammer heavy beasts.

[Falk]

Same here. We only have 3 options against Heavy Jacks - Angelius, Carni and Typhon. The Angelius will deliver one big punch and then likely die, so we're basically down to only two models to help us against, say, Khador.

However, there may be alternatives:
- Parasite
- CRAs
- Incite on a Seraph

Havent been able to test a pLylyth (Archers+UA, Deathstalkers, Striders, Raptors) list against WM yet, but it did very well against beast heavy Skorne and Circle. If Raptors gain ranged Weapon master instead of Poison, this could actually be viable.

[Voltimor]

If Raptors gain ranged Weapon master instead of Poison, this could actually be viable.

I like that idea :)

[Jice_]

If Raptors gain ranged Weapon master instead of Poison, this could actually be viable.

That would be easyer, but probably a bit too much. My sugestion a few weeks ago was to make both the sword and Arrows Poisoned, but give the unit Jack hunter. So they'd be deadly against Beasts and jacks, giving them a specific role, without just giveing them the ability to go wild on anything they want. So basically they'rd be good against everything but most of Cryx and Modrikaar.

[albertcamUsjr]

Menoth was my original primary army in WM (though I've made the full switch to Legion as my primary) and I actually really like what they've done to my Menoth a little more than I like the current Legion, but I think Legion can still be a threat to 'jack heavy Menoth.

It'd probably be best to think of other strategies for approaching this than going straight heavy-on-heavy. I know that when I run my Menoth against Legion, I would love for my opponent to focus his attention on killing my 'jacks instead of killing my incredibly squishy casters (squishiest of any faction). As Menoth, I would worry about Legion's superior mobility being able to largely ignore my jacks. If they had an Angel or two in their list, instead of double-teaming a jack, I'd worry about them double-teaming my caster.

Most factions don't have the Covenant of Menoth so slamming is a great way to mitigate a jack heavy approach. Even with the Covenant, slamming is a good method for getting them out of your way, and if they've gone jack-heavy they have few infantry running around blocking charge lanes to their caster.

I mean, I guess you just have to keep playing Legion like Legion, we never really are good at going toe-to-toe with heavies. Sure, it does feel like Legion is especially hamstringed if we *want* to go heavy-for-heavy, but I think this is not the wisest approach.

[Voltimor]

I would worry about Legion's superior mobility being able to largely ignore my jacks. If they had an Angel or two in their list, instead of double-teaming a jack, I'd worry about them double-teaming my caster.


Well Saeryn can do that on her Feat turn Flight you can still get free strikes and Choir buffed Menoth Jacks bring a world of pain with free strikes Angels come to warcaster can they fight not sure buffed Menoth jacks will most likely make angels lose aspects with the free strikes.

[Falk]

@Jice_

That would be easyer, but probably a bit too much. My sugestion a few weeks ago was to make both the sword and Arrows Poisoned, but give the unit Jack hunter. So they'd be deadly against Beasts and jacks, giving them a specific role, without just giveing them the ability to go wild on anything they want
I don't see how this could be too much. Against other Hordes factions they already get 3 damage dice against virtually everything with very very few exceptions.

Basically, Poison is an unfair disadvantage for Hordes factions facing Raptors, as compared to WM factions, especially Cryx, facing Raptors.
So in short, giving them Weapon Master instead doesn't make them any better at all - it just removes that unfair disadvantage for Hordes.

[Thunder_God]

The trample buff in mark 2 means you have to keep on your toes, but your legionnaires are not there to kill the enemy jacks, they're there to keep them engaged and from charging your warlock, while your much faster army goes around the sides and kills the caster.

Legion is going to lose a trading game with warjacks. They hit harder or as hard, but can survive more, and even if we had mirrors, they cost less. If you go into the game with a "Trading mentality", you're going to lose. You need to bypass them, you need to deter them.

Send Carni from one side, Typhon from the other, and your unit from the front. His caster needs protection, and not having much models means his mobility is limited.

[OldOneEye]

We do have a couple of respectable CRA units in Striders and Archers. Striders can reach POW 18; Archers can go up to POW 21 (and fire twice in a turn). I know from experience that they can tear up some warjacks.

Scathers I haven't tried yet, but they've got good range, high RAT, and POW 14. A couple of hits like that will get a warjack's attention.

I don't think we can stand up to warjack heavy with model-for-model strength. What we can do in that kind of game is overwhelm. You can threaten and soften up with any number of support pieces, then bring in one of our heavy hitters to finish them off.

[Voltimor]

But i think a Jack wall is not always wise to use agians some warlocks thinking Vayl and Abby they can buff Warbeast pretty good and Carni and Typhon can easy trash 3 to 4 jacks in a turn (if jacks are to close together) POW 18/20 carny and POW 19 Typhon is nothing to sneeze at.

[RuneGrey]

The problem isn't 'can we destroy a jack in one turn'. The problem is that we have to commit close to 20 points worth of models to be sure of getting the job done (if say you use a Carnivean and an Angelius to make sure the deal is sealed). Against most average heavy jacks, we're committing 20 points vs. their 7 points to seal the deal. If we kill them 1 for 1, we're still wiping out only 14 points of their army and putting 20 of ours in danger.

We can't ever kill enemies on a 1 for 1 basis. We just can't afford to make that sort of trade. The biggest problem though is we don't have a lot of melee units that can assist in taking out jacks, especially once they get into the Armor 19+ range. The vast majority of our troops are POW 10 - compared to what seems like an average of POW 12 on the Warmachine side of things for troops.

[Voltimor]

Well most warjacks cannot kill a warbeast in 1 turn warcaster need to add focus in jack to able to do that and if you get the alfa (charge) a cripled jack is no real treat for a full health warbeast ?

[Falk]

Well most warjacks cannot kill a warbeast in 1 turn warcaster need to add focus in jack to able to do that and if you get the alfa (charge) a cripled jack is not real treat for a full health warbeast ?You're missing the point. For one Typhon you get two Crusaders. So it's not a 1on1.

I'm not complaining about the point costs though, they are fine. A Typhon eats a Crusader anytime. However, many Legion lists don't include more than one of our 2.5 Heavies, so if you lose it, that's it. All other factions have cheaper damage dealing options, e.g. cheap boostable P&S16 Combo Strikes or something like that. Legion is lacking stuff like that. So either you field two Heavies (a Carni and a Typhon preferably) or you must press your luck and skill.

That's fine - we're not underpowered when it comes to dealing with Heavies. But we're very one-dimensional.

[Voltimor]

OK i see your point maybe Legion will get a cheap 7 or 8 point beat stick heavy in the near future :)

[grottoknight]

OK i see your point maybe Legion will get a cheap 7 or 8 point beat stick heavy in the near future :)

That would be nice but then it would have like 20hp. :)

Two Soldiers can do a pretty good job of a heavy but to do a real good job they need buffs.

[alchahest]

Soldiers are very close to being perfect. maybe give them the protector's powerful charge, and give protectors set defense.

[grottoknight]

Slayer
SPD STR MAT RAT DEF ARM CMD
6 10 7 5 13 17 —
FA: U
Point Cost: 6
Base Size: Large Base
Slayer
WEAPONS [Slayer]
Death Claw [2x] (Left and Right) POW: 6P+S: 16
Open Fist
Combo Strike (��Attack) - Make a melee attack. Instead of making a normal damage roll, the POW of the damage roll is equal
to this modelʼs STR plus twice the POW of this weapon.
Tusks [1x] (<—>) POW: 2 P+S: 12

28 HP
X X _ _ X X
X _ _ _ _ X
_ _ _ _ _ _
_ L _ _ R _
L L M C R R
X M M C C X

17 ARM and 28 HP to eat through is tough and we are paying 1 less pt for our Soldier. The soldier has 16ARM and 22 HP. The thing is that to the soldier comes pre-buffed if you will. He has 3 fury while the jack is bare bones with 3 attacks which will hit the Soldier on 6's. Two 16's and a 12 will wreck the Neph without a problem. The Soldier has one attack that hits on 7's at 14 and won't do a whole lot. Warcaster really lose when they have to allocate to a jack and in this case they don't and the Soldier will die. The Soldier neds a buff and Warlocks are more forgiving when laying out buffing spells as they are still pretty safe and can still do other things or have their beasts cast their animus for them.
The discrepency I see is that on its own the slayer can one shot the soldier easily even after taking the charge while the Nephilim soldier after a charge could end up with two hits and two boosted 14 damage rolls if maxing fury and that is not much.

Makes me think the soldier isn't all that cracked up for 5 pts. hmmmmmm

BTW yes, I find it hard for Legion to deal with Heavy Jacks only. It is better to tie them up or ignore if possible.
I know I play a Jack heavy Cryx army vs my buddies LOE as well as playing LOE myself and my Heavies generally last unless heavily targeted.

[Malkav13]

I've found that using a beast isn't necessarily the best answer. A unit of swordsmen with Draconic Blessing on them can take down most jacks. Even if the don't fully kill it, it will be seriously hurt, helping them to stay safe from retribution.

[Soulblighter]

I think the best solution is to fix the Angelius. Legion needs a cheaper heavy that can kill a Crusader. The Angelius should be buffed so it can at least kill a Crusader on its own. The Angelius needs a P+S15 bite attack so its not hitting like a light warbeast after its armorpiercing attack. With incite that becomes a respectable P+S17. I would gladly give up the Angelius' ranged attack in exchange for the bite attack and a better animus.

[grottoknight]

I think the best solution is to fix the Angelius. Legion needs a cheaper heavy that can kill a Crusader. The Angelius should be buffed so it can at least kill a Crusader on its own. The Angelius needs a P+S15 bite attack so its not hitting like a light warbeast after its armorpiercing attack. With incite that becomes a respectable P+S17. I would gladly give up the Angelius' ranged attack in exchange for the bite attack and a better animus.

me too

i like this idea

[warmaster21]

i tested out the angels animus as a 6 inch range and put it on a carni and it worked out well in conjucntion with a unit of legionaires... (well the carni was reported) since the enemy had to line up to the defensive lined legionaires making it perfect territory for a range 10 spray...

[alchahest]

don't get rid of the ranged attack - I like that every single heavy we have is capable of a little versatility.

[Soulblighter]

don't get rid of the ranged attack - I like that every single heavy we have is capable of a little versatility.

I dont. Having ranged attacks on everything makes our warbeasts either too unspecialized or too expensive, and often for a ranged attack that doesnt even amount to much.

[Voltimor]

i think is pretty neat if you can drop it animus on other models like "warmaster21" says

[RoyalAssassin]

I dont. Having ranged attacks on everything makes our warbeasts either too unspecialized or too expensive, and often for a ranged attack that doesnt even amount to much.

/agree - I'd happily trade off the Angel's gun for a bite attack. Angels are the kind of monster I want to be psychotically dedicated to its role as cruise missile - if getting rid of the gun would add more cruise missile-y goodness or drop the price, I'd be the first in line.

More on topic, I don't have any experience that disagrees with what everyone else has said. There's no point in engaging with warjacks; they're more points-efficient and more durable, and best left alone if you don't see a battlefield situation where you can trash one without taking a charge from another one. Toss Breath Stealer on it and treat it like a slow-moving wall, or Shadow Stalk and leave when it arrives, or any one of a number of other answers. Don't get suckered into playing their game - the best way to handle the points discrepancy is not to handle the points discrepancy.

[Defenstrator]

For me Menoth jacks are the big issue. With Safe Passage they are immune to shooting, and with the Vassal none of our melee monsters can get more than one hit. We don't even have open fists to grab the freaking things. This is one of the reasons I so want the Helion to get the ability to grant magical wepaons. Things like the Seraph/Striders/Archers are desperate for this against certain armies.

Other jacks I'm generally ok with as long as you can pick them off. Alot of our warlocks either have a beast damage buff or an enemy debuff that will make sure your beast gets the job done.

[PitLord]

Umm in the original post's scenario what is so horribly wrong with slamming one of those heavies over Resnik with a Seraph and then shotting him full of holes. I realize he can potentially camp focus, but if you do it right, with things like raptors or striders doing the shooting you really only forfeit a seraph for a pretty serious assassination run. They might have the Covenant in there and therefor not get knocked down. Two solutions come up for this, first take more than one slammer, slam a jack away to expose the covenant and then shoot it full of holes, then repeat on the caster. This should also be totally viable with other locks like Lylth.

Those jacks are gonna have a hard time killing spaced out striders, Raptors should be able to get away with their extra move.

In general we should be fast enough to piratically surround such a force. It is so heavy in jack's and jack support units that it will not be able to spread out very far. In addition Crusaders and things based on their chasis are slow. If they do send a jack out on its own it easy pray for one of our heavies and likely leaves an assassination lane somewhere. Others have pointed out that free strikes from their jacks really hurt but from choir not so much (power 6 + 3d6 is like 17 on average not enough to hurt a Carniveian even if it hits) Vassals don't even have a weapon to free strike with.

[alchahest]

what's wrong is that seraphs can't slam.

[Angelust]

It seems like Legion is really good at taking down support units and infantry. Things like Death Stalkers, Striders, Raptors, Spray-monsters, incubii, etc. Run in a typhon, spray down a bunch of menoth support like choirs and vassal, try to trash a jack, and let the typhon die while other stuff gets in place.

If all goes well, and you were able to down 1 cheaper heavy for one of your own, their general combat ability should be weakened because they no longer have choir boys or infantry screens.

I've found that 2 jacks can really wreck a couple things at a time, but they're not going to clear out swaths of infantry or really effectively shield their caster from assassinations.

In most of my games against jack-heavy that ended in wins, there were usually 2 jacks left on the table by the end, though without any support or infantry units, one of my casters or lesser beasts were able to jump in and lay down the pain.

And of course, 3 jacks shielding your caster doesn't mean squat when Typhon comes up with Manifest Destiny and 4 fury to spend. Unless they're eFeora. Gr.

[Soulblighter]

Were great at killing light warjacks/warbeasts too. We just have tremendous difficulty with heavy warjacks and cheap heavy warbeasts. Our only real solutions cost 11-12 points.

[PitLord]

what's wrong is that seraphs can't slam.

Your right of course I am still thinking of mk1. Seems to me that this is what Legion needs. A cheap large based warbeast that can slam. That would go a long way towards letting us deal with heavies even if they want us to have difficulty actually taking them down completely. The combination of not being able to easily move them and needing an 11 point model to go toe to toe with them might be a bit too much.

[alchahest]

I definitely agree with you. I'd actually love to see a high def, low armour, 7 spd pathfinder with two open fists and high strength. for a reasonable price.

[Necra-Chi]

Incubi do much appreciated damage to low DEF heavies in the <20ARM range. And tie them up a bit, cost effectively.

Incubi are our best "volume of damage per point" models.

[Falk]

I've found that using a beast isn't necessarily the best answer. A unit of swordsmen with Draconic Blessing on them can take down most jacks. Even if the don't fully kill it, it will be seriously hurt, helping them to stay safe from retribution.De facto wrong. Just do the math: Against ARM 20 Swordsmen deal 2.5 points of damage per attack. Let's say, you get 4 Swordsmen in melee range - that's 10 damage against a Khador Heavy. Of course we calculated this using a STR buff against a non-buffed Khador Heavy... and 10 damage still isn't worth mentioning. It's not bad, but you don't take a Heavy down like that. If they charge and have the buff against a non-buffed Heavy they will actually accomplish something.
But if we reason like that we could as well go all Shredders, charge the enemy Caster and win. Now that's a great strategy. :D


Incubi do much appreciated damage to low DEF heavies in the <20ARM range. And tie them up a bit, cost effectively. 24.5 + 21 if the Incubus charges. That's 9.5 damage points against an 18 ARM Heavy. I agree, that's a pretty good damage output for a 1 point model, but not really a solution to our problem with Heavies. Especially since it gets much worse against ARM 20 and/or anything with buffed ARM.

I'd like the Soldier to get P&S 16. Even if that made him worth 6 points.

[alchahest]

give the soldier powerful charge, and remove it from the protector. give the bodyguard set defense and some non-spell non-animus way to keep people upright.

[Malkav13]

How do you come by 2.5 damage per attack? Menoth heavies sit at arm 19. With Draconic blessing our swordsmen are at PoW 12s. On the charge they are going to be rolling 12+4d6. Assuming the average on the 4d6 is 14 (3.5 per die). So, on the charge that makes for an average of 26 damage, or 7 damage to the jack. Multiply that by 4 (assuming that's all you can get on one jack) to make that 28 damage done to the jack.
If the swordsmen charge in without draconic blessing, and we assume a low average on the rolls we get 10+12 (3 on each die) giving us 22 in total, or 3 damage. That still comes to 12 damage to the jack, and mires it in swordsmen.

[CorporateSellout]

I have so much trouble envisioning the role of light warbeasts, considering that I play Khador where every warjack (even the cheap ones) can put up a fight against a heavy warjack. If light warbeasts aren't particularly capable of bringing down a heavy (even in pairs), what are they useful for?

Considering the mild damage output of two lights compared to a heavy, I can only hope for a cheap heavy in the future. Lights (warjacks and warbeasts from all factions, except Khador of course) all seem to have comparable damage output to ours, and to that end seem to lack a significant role in my mind. What are they useful for?

[RoyalAssassin]

What are they useful for?

Special effects, mostly. The Neph Protector has our only answer to knockdown, and Shield Guard is pretty tasty with our locks that suffer from passing blast damage (*glares at Vayl*).

The Raek, as far I'm concerned, is the answer to all questions :) The animus is astonishing, he's got stealth, very solid mobility with leap, and even in a vacuum is an excellent solo hunter, with the added perk of being a legal transfer target, all for a very competitively priced 4 points.

I don't have a Neph Soldier - I hear the animus is pretty good, but I have no table time with him, so I'll let someone more qualified speak to his fruit-chewy goodness.

I'll agree completely that our lights aren't very good for jack hunting. Our heavies are adequate to the task but lose the points race. My life got a lot less frustrating when I came to peace with that. I don't go jack hunting; I go jack-tying-up, and jack-avoiding, because ultimately, if your opponent loses with 5 heavies on the table and untouched, he still loses. It's not a good thought for winning scenarios, though.

[Soulblighter]

I have so much trouble envisioning the role of light warbeasts, considering that I play Khador where every warjack (even the cheap ones) can put up a fight against a heavy warjack. If light warbeasts aren't particularly capable of bringing down a heavy (even in pairs), what are they useful for?

Light warbeasts can sometimes take down heavies with the right buffs or debuffs. A Neph Soldier with Parasite gets the equivalent of four P+S17 attacks and will likely get a free charge from Lylyth.

[CorporateSellout]

It always surprised me how little damage the lights with only one weapon do. I think they should be making up for the fact that they only get one attack per turn, but their POW's stick around the typical range for the weapons other beast wield in just their left hand. For instance look at the gorax or slag troll using POW 12s or 13s with each hand! Meanwhile a cyclops savage or nephilim soldier using a two handed weapon is using about the same POW but getting half the attacks. It fails to make sense to me... I'd think that these beasts that use the biggest weapons should be able to at least threaten one of the big guys, but unfortunately they've not been given preference in number of attacks or pow of attacks. At least the cyclops, as was mentioned, grants a unique special ability to it's controllers army; the soldier OTOH lacks any such redeeming quality, anything it does seems to only be halfway, and it isn't enough to make it useful. [/rant]

edit: Keep in mind that this doesn't even begin the comparison to warjacks which all have double attacks with few exceptions (bonejacks). It's frustrating that these beasts are given half the number of weapons granted to almost all warjacks/warbeasts and they are still granted only mediocre stats and abilities.

[DevonV]

Scathers I haven't tried yet, but they've got good range, high RAT, and POW 14. A couple of hits like that will get a warjack's attention.


But again, not Menoth 'jacks. Assuming they can even target them, most will shrug off 1 or 2 points of damage, and the Avatar won't even be scratched on average rolls. And they're getting a mechanic, so chipping at them is about to become pointless.

Even Helljacks only take 4 damage on average. With RAT 7, I think the Scather is meant for swifter, squishier targets.

[Falk]

@Malkav13
2.5 is the damage of a Swordsmen with Draconic Blessing against a Khador Heavy when not charging.

The problem with your calculations is that you assume too much. You assume that the Heavy is only ARM 19 (he could be a Khador Heavy or buffed), you further assume that you'll get to charge and in the first part of your calculation you also assume that you have Draconic Blessing.
Curiously, in the second part of your calculation you take out Draconic Blessing, but still keep the ARM 19 and the charge, i.e. you keep the stuff we cannot influence and drop that which we can influence.
That's a very unproductive and unrealistic way of doing theorymachine. Our oponents are not dumb.

You know, if we calculate like that we don't need Swordsmen either. Give Warmongers the blessing and charge in.

[Malkav13]

Granted, I assumed the charge and Draconic Blessing. Taking out Draconic Blessing, swordsmen on the charge will still be doing around 5 pts of damage. I took those assumptions based on the original post, with the Menoth jacks.
Getting the charge with swordsmen is a realistic scenario in most situations. With the new formation rules you can keep them spread out enough that at least a few will get a charge in.
So, in the end, I do agree with your numbers, assuming no charge against a Khador heavy, yeah we are not doing much damage (but then, what is?)

[Defenstrator]

In my MKII games I only get to charge heavies with three swordsmen at most. The rest are usually dead.

[Necra-Chi]

Incubi ALWAYS get to charge.

[Nargacuga]

Don't forget shredders..

For 8 points you can field 4.

Incite or means each rabid shredder will attacks will deal roughly 3 damage to a ARM19 Warjack per attack. At 2 attacks each, you will deal 24 damage on average if all 4 get in there.

If you use them with pLylyth's parasite, the avg damage is 32 (and they get an extra 2" on the charge move).

Not only that, but jacks without thresher or a multi-attack will have a bit of trouble killing more than a couple.

Its just too bad they don't have an ability like Gang . Essentially a (non cumulative) bonus +2 to attack and damage rolls while attacking a model damaged by another shredder.

[Defenstrator]

They're saving that for our character Shredder.

[Lazlo]

They're saving that for our character Shredder.

I sure hope Hordes gets some more character beasts in their books, but I doubt we will ever get a character shredder.

I'm just basing that off of the pattern that our alpha and character beasts have presented so far. We are the only faction whose alpha and character beasts are NOT derivative of a previous beast. The angelius was a whole new critter, as was Typhon. Though it could be argued that with the Mk II changes to the seraph they are trying to make the angelius an evolved seraph.

[possiblyarowbot]

a beatstick, character shredder would be epic. I mean, who takes shredders seriously anyways?

Wait, why wouldnt you take Rhyas against the brick? I mean, with shadow stalk she can walk right through their army.

With the protector's/shredder's animus, even with a choir the jacks will still have a hard time hitting her (not counting combustion, which would kill more of his guys,than Rhyas).

Iron aggression, ignite, blah blah, play like you've got a pair

[Malkav13]

The deathstalker is a pretty good answer to the choir. Pick them off bit by bit.

[Jaster]

I actually at a match that was pretty close to that; 2 'Jacks, Avatar, Sunburst, Choir, Bastions and some jack buffing solo who's name escapes me against P-Lylyth, Carni, 3 Warmongers, Striders and Seraph and 3 Shrdders.

I dealt with it by hiding lylyth in a forest, and doing a fall back (avoiding the hell out of the Avatar), and bated him into a postion with Rez behind a Bastion line, then feated, Carni Assasulted through the forest to break a hole, then used a Seraph the spit at the caster to death.

Was kinda his fault, but still manged to do it without a death (well, he did get some rocket deviates to my striders.)

[Soulblighter]

I dont think ive ever seen Reznik with less than ARM22. He just upkeeps ignite and iron aggression and camps the rest of his focus. Usually he just has an Avatar and Vanquisher as his jacks and neither really need focus.

[Malkav13]

That is when your forsaken go up to him and say "Boo!"

[belotelov]

Menoth just a little bit stronger than Legion. All the heavy beast can shoot. But in case of menoth they can't :) so they need to go to a melee. But in the melee with enliven'd Avatar... what can kill avatar with 1 strike? Oh - i know. Just throw your carnivean at your opponent :) So he/she will not take a full buff next time.

[belotelov]

That is when your forsaken go up to him and say "Boo!"

Oh - such powerfull strategy :) Reznik will stay at "huge" threat range of a forsaken with full foc stat? Ok. Stupid opponent makes us almost a winner. now we have to roll. oh. Let's say he has 6 focus points left. it's 8 dices + 8.
It's 36 damage points if we don't have a huge luck or unluck. so we hit caster for 15. Hmm. We did'n kill him. :)

[PitLord]

Oh - such powerfull strategy :) Reznik will stay at "huge" threat range of a forsaken with full foc stat? Ok. Stupid opponent makes us almost a winner. now we have to roll. oh. Let's say he has 6 focus points left. it's 8 dices + 8.
It's 36 damage points if we don't have a huge luck or unluck. so we hit caster for 15. Hmm. We did'n kill him. :)

Well what in that list is going to deal with the forsaken then. You shouldn't have that much trouble clearing an infantry screen, and if a jack comes out of the wedge to smash the forsaken then the wedge is broken, mission accomplished.

As for the caster, you hit him for 15 and now it is totally worth assaulting with a heavy and a its spray for the caster kill attempt even if you loose the Heavy should you fail.

Now a more vaild concern is that your opponent is going to see that forsaken coming and not camp focus but plan on taking the hit.

[RuneGrey]

Oh - such powerfull strategy :) Reznik will stay at "huge" threat range of a forsaken with full foc stat? Ok. Stupid opponent makes us almost a winner. now we have to roll. oh. Let's say he has 6 focus points left. it's 8 dices + 8.
It's 36 damage points if we don't have a huge luck or unluck. so we hit caster for 15. Hmm. We did'n kill him. :)

Actually if the Forsaken player is being smart, you're looking at 8+9d6 damage - you can boost the rolls inside of the blight shroud now as long as you have some focus left over. It means you sacrifice an inch of threat range in exchange for doing, oh lets say, 17 damage on average. That does sound like a dead Reznik.

But yes, if an opponent camps a full focus load around you, a Forsaken will do them in every single time. And they deserve it too - its our one answer to focus camping warcasters. And if he doesn't camp focus, well.

Forsaken has 6 attacks it can use, or 2 boosted to the max attacks with 5 fury on it. Not something to shrug off, given that it's still a nasty melee creature. I've had my Forsaken tear apart light jacks, solos, and the occasional heavy on a few occasions.

[nanozach]

Most of the guys around here play either all jacks & solos, or maybe a small smattering of infantry as a buffer to their Jack/Solo armies, so I've had a lot of experience dealing with these types of lists locally.

My observations:

A carnivean with in incite can walk up and swing with 5 mat 8 pow 20's and 2 mat 8 pow 18's. With heavy defenses in the 18-21 range, that's 5 hits @ ~6-9 damage and 2 hits @ 4-7 dmg. let assume the behemoth is there, so its ~38 damage to him, or if we have a ironclad or two, that's ~59 between them.

I have routinely boxed two jacks (heavy plus light or two small heavies) that were less than a heavy base +1" away from each other in one activation with this guy. If you can get the caster to throw spiny growth on him before he moves up, you and just cripple a few arm systems and watch them try to hit back. =)

Draconic Blessing & Forced Evolution with produce similar effects, but with reduced chance to hit. (you need 4's to hit khador, and 6's to hit those pesky 12 def jacks, lets not even mention circle) Of course without using vayl you will not get the -2 def on enemy models debuff that chiller brings, so this brings your hitting power with the carnivean down a peg.

Typhon on the other hand, has MAT 7, which helps a bit with hitting, but only p+s 17 bites... but we know that three caster that can buff that to p+s 19, and he gets 7 of those attacks if he doesnt spray, lets assume he roles a 3 or a 5 (for def 10 or 12 respectivly) each time, he will do 5-8 damage with each attack, for a total of 35-56 damage (for arm 21 or 18 respectively)

With regards to infantry that can take out jacks, I never choose the legionnaires over the swordsmen, there is something about weapon-masters that strikes fear into the heart of the opponent. Yeah, they may be a point overpriced at the max unit size, but I've had plenty of success with them regardless. With vayl they are an amazing chiller delivery mechanism, and I HAVE found that time after time, you get a charge from these guys, either from them or from their incubi. and if they get killed on the way, that's less shots going at my heavies.

One nice way to crimp a jack heavy players style is to field Abby. I find that Blight Field is much more effective against WM than Hoards, and one can typically find two jacks within 4" of one another, denying both the chance to retaliate the next turn. She also has several other great anti heavy assets. The two spells at her disposal, Playing God and Forced Evolution...

Playing God lets the Carnivean charge for free, increasing his threat range, number of attacks, and his total damage output. He can also tie up more targets, and if something in my army is getting hit, i hope its the carnivean, that boy can take a punch.

Forced evolution is good on Carni, but really shines on the already high defense of Typhon. stack it with tenacity, and now you have a def 16 arm 18 heavy, who might get missed once in a while by those high mat heavie, or at least scare them into boosting which uses up a focus meaning less total damage dealt to you. he also gets the aforementioned boost to his own damage from the plus two strength. And unless your opponent is immune to knockdown, critical pitch can really shine here.

Consider this, when boosting an attack roll, your chances of rolling the same number on any two dice increases from just under 14% to around 41%. Boosting the three initial to hit rolls give you an 80% change to critically pitch a target! And at plus two STR =) even if you don't get the pitch, you are still damaging the target with a pow 19 not its not a bad calculated risk. (fyi two boosted attacks gives you ~66% chance of crit pitching)

Consider trying this base for an anti heavy list, modifying for flavor or units you have available:

Absylonia (+5)

25pts:
Typhon (12)
Carnivean (11)
Shredder (2)
Harrier (2)
Forsaken (2)
Shepherd (1)

35pts add:
Min Swordsmen
Incubi

50pts add:
Carnivean (11)
Forsaken (2)
Shredder (2)

This list could still handle infantry very well with all the sprays at your disposal, and the great new trample rules. If your really worried about it, you could trade the Forsaken and Shredder at 50 pts for the Swordsmen UA to get Cleave and mow down those infantry. Cleave, for me, works especially well when up against models with tough, but anti infantry is a topic for other threads I think.

Good luck!

[Garth]

Yeah, Vayl and E-Thag solve a lot of problems, perhaps even abby. And what is with the rest of our casters ? We don't have a solution in our army, only in a few warlocks...

[RoyalAssassin]

Abby has real problems with Purification. Well, I guess lots of people do, but it's crippling for her in specific because she's so reliant on upkeep effects. She does fine against Khador, though - I've had really good luck with a Forced Evolution Angelius and Blight Field to screw up the counterattack if it fails to wreck the target.

All in all, I don't think this is a warcaster problem. I think more than anything else it's a problem with WM being two books ahead, with all the corresponding options, and with a lack of low-cost, low-flash solid beasts in Legion (or Hordes in general). I suspect there's also a touch of having overcompensated for Fury > Focus, but the end result is the same however we got there, and buffing warlocks to manage the heavy armor threat is, IMO, a poor idea - imagine what we'd do to the other Hordes factions if Vayl/eThags could rip up Khador/Menoth armor.