View Full Version : How much infantry?
10-22-2010, 11:34 PM
I've been playing eGaspy to the exclusion of all others. And while I enjoy using him, an ocean of Banes is actually getting kinda boring to run. So I'm looking at other casters- eDenny, eSkarre- maybe even the Coven. For a change.
But every time I write a list, my concept of balance is skewed by my experience with eGaspy's nigh jack-less play style. Every army feels way too light on infantry because I've spent the points on a couple helljacks.
I think eDenny favors the same sort of list as eGaspy. Keeping her focus to spam spells.
eSkarre seems to like a balance between helljacks and infantry.
The Coven seems to do just fine with helljack heavy lists due to the sheer amount of focus available.
In your experience, what's the optimal amount of infantry and bone and helljacks to run (at 35pts) with the above warcasters? List examples would be appreciated.
Oh. And I heard a filthy rumor that Retribution are great at taking down Cryx. Has anyone found this to be the case? How so?
10-23-2010, 12:28 AM
Mortenebra, and eskarre, are great at running jacks eskarre likes a more balanced list but morty can run very jack heavy.
I would recommend checking out the list forums and sneak a few looks at some of the lists people are posting for the casters your interested in and check out the discussions if any. That should give you a good idea of what typically is run with who.
And Filthy rumors tend to be just that, I have not had a problem facing ret with cryx, Rahn cries buckets when he sees an all stealth list, really the only one I have to be careful about is vyross and his damn bird.
10-23-2010, 06:16 AM
You aren't going to love this answer, but eDenny and eSkarre can probably get away with running whatever mix you want to play with. Satyxis are great with eSkarre to tie things up until your heavy hitters get there, and eDenny probably wants Banes for heavy lifting, but really Denny's debuffs help everything. eSkarre likes more self-sufficient infantry - bring Tartarus with your banes, for sure. Also, BRING THE DEATHJACK. This is often a no-brainer, but with eDenny double Hellmouth is just too sweet for words, and DJ with Admonition (or even Death Ward in some cases) is next to impossible to deal with under eSkarre (not to mention a great feat target and super hyper efficient via Seas of Fate). Shooty jacks shine with both casters, via debuffs or Seas. So really, run whatever you want with them both.
Coven, on the other hand, is fragile as hell, and you have to plan around their weaknesses (no crowd control), and play to their strengths (Infernal Machine for a heavy, Occultation and/or Ghost Walk for a unit, Curse for the assassination run). They do next to nothing for infantry (although Stealth can really help Knights or Bile Thralls), so they aren't optimal choices, but with so little answer to infantry on their own, you really want the board presence of a unit. My answer has been including a Harrower - he babysits the girls awfully well, taking potshots or sniping support models, protected by the feat and/or Veil of Mists until its time to Thresher with Infernal Machine. You need a node or two in order to be able to use their obscene Control Area and play at the back, and a couple Stalkers with them is just terrifying. My list:
10-23-2010, 07:30 AM
Kaylyssa is pretty darn good at dealing with Cryx too. But other than that they fair as good as anyone else does. All of the above listed casters have a luxury of taking what they want and staying pretty darn competitive. Edenny does well with most things and don't forget to field your blackbanes with her as they rock super hard with marked for death. Forcing your opponent to take up valuable points in his list to contend with this unit is good for your game as your already dictating some part of the game before deployment.
B The coven and eskarre really love the death jack. Eskarre does well with raiders and whatever else you want and I really like soul hunters with the coven as you can give them stealth and ghostly to go with their incorporeal.
10-23-2010, 08:09 AM
pGaspy doesn't care what's in his list and has a buff spell with respect to damaging stuff.
10-27-2010, 12:47 AM
I only have one game under my belt with Terminus so far since he came in the mail but even in theory he is a good caster to take an infantry flood with. Banes with UA and solo support are good for letting him just trudge up the field behind a row of McThralls and surgeon to block ranged shots while arcing a couple ranged spells in each turn. Once you are into melee it should be pretty good from there. The general rule of thumb for Terminus is that his army delivers him. Almost the exact opposite of eGaspy. I would think that some boarding party would be good with him also since they block charge and then can drag in targets for him to put the smack down on.
10-27-2010, 03:12 AM
Basicly I look at it like this. How is your focus being spent and how many ways you can fuel those jacks.
Some jacks fuel themselves (DJ, Seether) but aside from that you have to look at how focus is being spent. If you have jacks just sitting there doing normal movments and normal attacks, they're no better than infantry at that point, and just MUCH more expensive.
10-27-2010, 08:40 AM
This is Cryx. In general our units are superior to our jacks, and all other units as well. You'll never suffer for going unit heavy.
In particular, casters who like infantry hordes:
eGaspy (you know)
Casters who can win with anything:
Denegra, both flavors
Casters who like jacks
10-27-2010, 12:12 PM
You'll never suffer for going unit heavy.
Not in a vacuum, no, but there are lots of casters and armies that can prey on armies with mostly infantry. Both Feoras, Old Witch, Harbinger, anyone with Ashes to Ashes, eDenny, whoever that Skorne caster is who has the feat where each destroyed models gets a move and an attack (every lose two full units to two model's activation?), Vanquishers, Bile Thralls, Beast09... Infantry is good and all, and Cryx infantry is particularly cost-effective, but these lists have their weaknesses.
10-27-2010, 12:32 PM
plus facing a shooty cygnar list with covering fire is impossible to deal with with just infantry. I'm finally having to take more balanced lists (i.e. 2 heavies :p) thanks to a Cygnar player at my store and his freaking Cyclone :p
10-27-2010, 03:14 PM
Incorporeal Soulhunters running/charging through ftw :D.
10-27-2010, 04:36 PM
Doesn't seem like their is much middle ground in Cryx. Either take 1-2 jacks and a ton of infantry or take Morty+jacks. The exception are arc nodes but really we can't spam them like we could in MK1. A lot of our casters can hold their own without a single jack in the entire list. Termy, pSkarre, both gaspys, venethrax, and both goreshades could easily leave out all their jack points and still make very good lists.
The Black Parade
10-27-2010, 05:33 PM
pDenny's Tier list lends to being Jack heavy seeing how T3 and T4 require a bunch to pull it off.
All be it Morty is the premier Jack caster, pDenny can do it to some effect. If you wanted to try something different its worth the effort.
I just finished building all the models for the Tier list below. I only have one game in so far, but with her debuffs and the two Seethers throwing stuff around it worked pretty fluid. It seems to be 'Focus' hungry from the surface, but with the support of the Warwitches and the Skarlock it is really not to bad. You just have to pick your targets and be smarter at allocating your 'Focus'. If you can get that part of it, her army's killing potential on her feat turn is near unlimited. With initial and collateral damage all over the place not much will live with all those debuffs.
Like any pDenny list, get CG out quick then Para to the kill targets. Between Deneghra and the Skarlock it shouldn't be to tough.
To help with the OP and to stay on topic...this list may look Jack heavy at 6 but it also does has 8 non-Jack models with the potential of MANY more with the Necrotechs and Scrap Thralls (<- terrible to deal with in a pDenny army). So the shift of balance will go from Jacks to Infantry as they get wrecked and the game goes into the deeper rounds.
Army: pDenny Tier
Type: Duel (1 caster)
Warwitch Deneghra (*5pts)
* Deathripper (0pts**)
* Deathripper (4pts)
* Stalker (4pts)
* Stalker (4pts)
* Seether (9pts)
* Seether (9pts)
* Skarlock Thrall (2pts)
Necrotech & 1 Scrap Thrall (1pts)
Necrotech & 1 Scrap Thrall (1pts)
Warwitch Siren (2pts)
Warwitch Siren (2pts)
Warwitch Siren (2pts)
I know the original post was on Infantry, and its balance but Cryx with all its GREAT infantry and really GOOD Jacks it can strike a balance with a lot of casters. I find my Cryx to be a lot like my Trolls, its all about the synergy and the 'reason' you build a list (ex. attrition, assassination, scenario, etc.). Pick a caster with a spell list you like and build a army around that. One thing also, don't be afraid to look at Merc's for support in some lists. Cryx have zero effective physical ranged units. Cylena and her Nyss really help to shore up a weak spot in the Cryx army. They are worth every point, especially against a Warlock like Kromac and the likes (Bestial = Sad Cryx).
(man staying on topic is hard sometimes)
10-27-2010, 10:55 PM
How much infantry?
10-28-2010, 02:12 AM
I'm thinking one full elite unit and a min secondary unit may be the way to go in 35.
10-13 Elite infantry
6-9 Other infantry
Whhhhhy does Deathjack have to be so expensive?
10-28-2010, 03:32 AM
That sounds roughly what i am looking to run. Just a shame i have to change soo much to fit nightmare into my pdenny list. DJ is great but i am starting to really love nightmare.
I think like WFB balance is the key and answers to lists like cygnar/menoth. Nothing beasts seeing a menoths players face when DJ and Nightmare preyed the avatar and left him on 7 boxes.
10-28-2010, 04:01 AM
Yeah. I think balance is better than spam on Warmachine. There are just so many different situations- there's no possible way you can account for them.
I've been running eGaspy Banespam with zero helljacks, plus Cankerworm and a Nightwretch. There's so much out there that shreds infantry. Thankfully, I've not come up against things like Blightbringer.
It's funny. I just started painting Deathjack and I'm thinking of purchasing Nightmare to replace him in non eGaspy lists.
10-28-2010, 04:22 AM
I personally always go the more infantry the better rout. It seldom doesn't pay off for me. Even against the cursed cyclones you can just choose to spawn your mechanithralls inside the cyclones templates and then charge/run to engage it for next turn. I run a 30 mechanithrall 9'brute thralls and 2 surgeons (using trolls, gundrun, bokurs, and some IG,ogres/ogrekingdom as my brutes) with pskarre and have only 1 loss with the list. I believe in spam sure balance is great but if you can figure out what to spam with what caster it can be devastating.
10-28-2010, 05:10 AM
I believe some spam works but i have had a few bad experiences with infantry spam against pcaine and ecaine.
But i think a mix is good. But i am only a newb so thats my 2p.
10-28-2010, 01:06 PM
There's so much out there that shreds infantry.
Playing eGaspy that's exactly what you want.
10-28-2010, 03:06 PM
10-28-2010, 03:51 PM
I'm moving away from eGaspy. Hence the question. =p
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