The Savage

[Scalpel]

Let assume the Paingiver change and Rush on the BB stays the same.

Therefore the Savage now needs a buff.

One of the cool things about the this melee light was it's 13" Threat range ... you could use them in so many ways.

If all warbeasts were balanced with Paingivers in mind, they by default the Savager just got weeker last Thursday.

The Shaman, Cannoneer, Drake, Krea, & Brute used to use more of the other paingiver abilities, like the Heals and Fury control - so while they may have got an Enrage last game, it was probably more for the STR than the extra 2" move.

The Savage got Enrage 95% in most games, for that first alpha strike among other things.

Some suggestions (i.e. one of the following, not all) :-

* +1 POW to his Weapon
* Overtake
* Brutal Charge
* Thresher


Thoughts?

[Cronix]

Some suggestions (i.e. one of the following, not all) :-

* +1 POW to his Weapon

Thoughts?

This, and change it to +1 STR, if you increase the POW of the weapon Molik becomes stronger [same weapon ;)].

Also, reduce the animus with -1, so that it can be spammed for a better fury management.

[Pickles]

Some suggestions (i.e. one of the following, not all) :-

* +1 POW to his Weapon
* Overtake
* Brutal Charge
* Thresher

Thoughts?

He was a tad lacklustre even before the PG thing. Definitely 5 points but could be better & still be 5 points.
So I offf more muddy waters:-

+1 MAT - he always had good MAT for a light. :D

+1 POW is probably the most reasonable. Overtake the most interesting. Thresher the strongest (but would make him 6 points).

His animus while sounding good is hard to cast effectively. He is often dead or busy & only your Warlock & Heavies benefit with the heavies preferring other animi. There is scope there for a little buff though I have no idea what.

[DarkWonderer]

I trotaly agree with Cronix this one time :) .

[Wolfbane]

Thresher and maybe make him 6 points, that's my vote.

Keep the same, make him +1 POW.

[Pickles]

Thresher and maybe make him 6 points, that's my vote.

Keep the same, make him +1 POW.

Prescience works really very well with Thresher it would be worth 6, at least in PP eyes :)

[tensteam]

I agree with Scalpel that the Savage needs help. While the loss of Paingiver speed buff seems to be good for Skorne, it isn't for Savage.

The best suggestion would be to reduce the cost of animus to 1. That would make it used more than it is now (which is in fact never in my games). Some other buff might be considered in addition, but lowering the animus cost should be highest priority.

[Moonblade]

My vote would be to -1 STR on Molik Karn, +1 POW on Falchion, and keep the rest the same. Although with this Karn's Combo Strike will be a gigantic P+S 22 without buffs, can be boosted after rolling, and other stuffs, which make it really scary. There might be other issues coming from here.

But it makes more sense that Cyclopses don't get as bulky as Titans or Rhinodons. Karn's STR 11 was nearing that point. On the other hand, I find it odd that those large blades aren't as strong as Immortal's Great Sword.

[Draekon Darkstorm]

Savage and Brute should be STR 9, not 8. They do not appear to be the same STR as the Krea/Drake, so therefore should be stronger. That is the only change they need.

Draekon

[Donesh]

The Savage feels like a bad Axer. The Axer does cost one more point but tends to be more survivable, kills infantry better, has an animus that is awesome so he doesnt need an external speed buff and hits hard without a required buff.

The animus really has issues. When attacking and you miss you now have the choice to either take another attack or roll an additional die to hit. Both increase the chance of landing a hit and cost the same. Its really a negligible buff because of this. There are corner cases like Zaal's feat where this isn't true but I would prefer an animus I would actually use.

[werecat]

The Savage feels like a bad Axer. The Axer does cost one more point but tends to be more survivable, kills infantry better, has an animus that is awesome so he doesnt need an external speed buff and hits hard without a required buff.

The animus really has issues. When attacking and you miss you now have the choice to either take another attack or roll an additional die to hit. Both increase the chance of landing a hit and cost the same. Its really a negligible buff because of this. There are corner cases like Zaal's feat where this isn't true but I would prefer an animus I would actually use.

Not really, it has a lot more use than that. Say, for example, the Savage needs to hit on an 8. That's slightly above average, so in a normal case, you'll want to boost. The savages ability allows you to give it a shot, without having to boost. Then you can do the boost you normally would have if it doesn't hit. I would cry if he lost that ability.


But I'd much rather we just kept him as is, and dropped him to 4.

[Pickles]

The Savage feels like a bad Axer. The Axer does cost one more point but tends to be more survivable, kills infantry better, has an animus that is awesome so he doesnt need an external speed buff and hits hard without a required buff.

The animus really has issues. When attacking and you miss you now have the choice to either take another attack or roll an additional die to hit. Both increase the chance of landing a hit and cost the same. Its really a negligible buff because of this. There are corner cases like Zaal's feat where this isn't true but I would prefer an animus I would actually use.

The odds are different though. If you miss by 1 then boosting is a better bet than another roll. It's especially good when you are hitting on baddish numbers like 89s. Then you will hit quite a lot without boosting & the extra die has a lots of chances to be better than another attack.

That's in theory. In practice he is is slightly fury efficient & his animus is hard to use for its slight efficiency.

Its also in theroy good for boosting p morghoul if you see he will get full value from the boost but it only make Morghoul slightly less crap at assassinatin arm 16+.

[lord tyrant watt]

This animus is huge on warlocks!
Especially our 5 and 6fury warlocks. It allows them to sling a spell, take a chance on hitting, and then if they miss, boost afterwards.

I dont know how many times ive put it on another beast(rhino w/thresher) or warlock, sent them in for the kill and then destroyed what i wanted because of the fury management that this allows.

My vote is leave it alone!;)

As for a buff, i would take brutal charge. I dont want a axer in my army. Im starting to dislike how all the factions are seeing the same models, with the same abilities, with the same point cost.

Its starting to feel bland.

[ketsugami]

I agree, his animus is excellent. You don't have to waste a fury boosting if you miss by 5 or 6, but if you need 1 or 2 you can goose it to a hit.

I often have my warlock or a Shaman cast it on heavies before they go in -- esp. good on a Gladiator, for example.

As for the OP -- I think, if he needs a buff, +1 Str is probably the way to go.

[planescapedm]

I dont want a axer in my army. Im starting to dislike how all the factions are seeing the same models, with the same abilities, with the same point cost.

Its starting to feel bland.


Agreed, we have the Rhino, we don't need another thresher. The more the factions differ the more fun and unique the factions seem (to an extent).

We should entertain the idea of giving the savage significant buffs and bumping him up to 6 points.

[riven5]

My only suggestion is to drop his animus to 1 fury.

I am not sure how the change to Paingivers has affected our beasts individually at this time, so I can't really speak to that before I playtest it. However, I have always felt that lowering the animus cost for the Savage would be a boon for the faction as a whole.

I would much prefer an animus worthy of bringing to most of my armies over a little extra strength, personally. As it stands now his animus is a bit too expensive for what it does.

Indeed, if it were lowered to a cost of 1 then perhaps it could be removed as a passive ability on him, thus giving even more wiggle room for potential stat increases. Obviously that is a big change compared to what he is now, so I won't be submitting feedback until thoroughly tested.

[Cronix]

The Savage feels like a bad Axer. The Axer does cost one more point but tends to be more survivable, kills infantry better, has an animus that is awesome so he doesnt need an external speed buff and hits hard without a required buff.

Don't compare the Axer with the Savage both are unique, one is a scapel the other is a troll that is good at killing units.

The only thing i ask for +1 STR and a reduction on its animus. With a animus that cost 1 fury we can turn this faction into a supreme fury management faction.

[Pickles]

This animus is huge on warlocks!
Especially our 5 and 6fury warlocks. It allows them to sling a spell, take a chance on hitting, and then if they miss, boost afterwards.

I dont know how many times ive put it on another beast(rhino w/thresher) or warlock, sent them in for the kill and then destroyed what i wanted because of the fury management that this allows.

My vote is leave it alone!;)

As for a buff, i would take brutal charge. I dont want a axer in my army. Im starting to dislike how all the factions are seeing the same models, with the same abilities, with the same point cost.

Its starting to feel bland.

I never get as much use out of it in practice as I thought I would when I first read it. I would hate to see it go though as it's fluffy. The obvious buff is to make it cost one - not that much use.

As I said I think the cyclops is a bad 5 point beast but still useable, a tiny improvement would be nice.

I agree on the vanilla beasts - everyone has a brute type beast & a 3 point thresher solo (or wants one).

[viperidae99]

I'm not sure the Savage needs a buff. So you can't give him a SPD buff with Paingivers any more, he's still SPD 6 with 2" reach and a really cool animus that comes built in on him. None of these suggestions seem directed toward 'fixing' the lack of Enrage buff, but rather, wishlisting some bonuses for him.

If you depended on Enrage every game, that isn't really the Savage's fault.

Why is he a bad 5 point beast?

[Sevwall]

He's not. He's really not. Its a case of using a synergy nerf as an excuse to buff a perfectly fine model.

[Keegantir]

I agree with what most people have said.

From the games I have played with him, I just feel that 5 points is little too much and 4 is a little too few.

So we are left with 2 options.

A. Buff him a little to make him worth 5 points. I like the idea of +1 Str and -1 Animus cost (future site is a good abilitiy, but it costing 2 on the Animus, makes it rarely get used). These 2 things together put him into a solid 5 points.

B. Nerf him a little to make him worth 4 points. I was thinking a lot about this and there is no real suggestions that I can make here that make any sense.

[Yertle4]

Some suggestions (i.e. one of the following, not all) :-

* +1 POW to his Weapon
* Overtake
* Brutal Charge
* Thresher

Thoughts?

+1 POW is the only thing near reasonable. But compared to the Nephilim Soldier in faction, the Savage looks about right.

I thought about Brutal Charge for a while, but it'd be too much on a model with that speed and Future Sight + all the other damage buffs.

My change would be Prescience costing 1. I think that Prescience is another one of our problem animi - not because it's bad, but because it's not really that fury efficient (for a 'fury efficient' animus).

If you're going to spend 2 fury to "maybe" boost - it's usually better to just boost.
If you're spending that 2 fury from the warlock - your warlock probably gave up something much better to do with that 2 fury.
If you're spending that 2 fury from the Savage himself - you warlock now needs to take that fury off (or paingivers) or else the Savage will likely frenzy on something in your backline.
If you're spending it from a Shaman - not too bad, the Paingivers are usually nearby.

Either way - really depends on paingivers for the animi - which means he's not killing things up front. It makes him a little... schizophrenic in purpose.

[DarkWonderer]

I'm not sure the Savage needs a buff. So you can't give him a SPD buff with Paingivers any more, he's still SPD 6 with 2" reach and a really cool animus that comes built in on him. None of these suggestions seem directed toward 'fixing' the lack of Enrage buff, but rather, wishlisting some bonuses for him.

If you depended on Enrage every game, that isn't really the Savage's fault.

Why is he a bad 5 point beast?


I Think Savage is perfectly fine in a vacuum, but it does not exist in a vacuum. With all the recent influx of power of other cheap meele beasts Savage no longer looks as apealing as it used to. I will still take him because his purpose in the Skorne army is uncontested. I like him for his speed, reach and intuition. His MAT 6 used to be exceptional, but a lot of lights gained MAT 6 lately. Trolls have a lot of MAT 6 PC5 beasts and all of them seem to give more bang for the bucks.


Like I said I will take him as he is, but wouldn't mind some minor tweak. His animus at cost 1 would be a realy welcome addition. I like intuition, but I don't like to spend that much fury on it form my caster, when I ccould cast some more efficient spell. Savage usualy is to busy face smashing to cast it.

[ketsugami]

+1 POW is the only thing near reasonable. But compared to the Nephilim Soldier in faction, the Savage looks about right.

I thought about Brutal Charge for a while, but it'd be too much on a model with that speed and Future Sight + all the other damage buffs.

My change would be Prescience costing 1. I think that Prescience is another one of our problem animi - not because it's bad, but because it's not really that fury efficient (for a 'fury efficient' animus).

If you're going to spend 2 fury to "maybe" boost - it's usually better to just boost.
If you're spending that 2 fury from the warlock - your warlock probably gave up something much better to do with that 2 fury.
If you're spending that 2 fury from the Savage himself - you warlock now needs to take that fury off (or paingivers) or else the Savage will likely frenzy on something in your backline.
If you're spending it from a Shaman - not too bad, the Paingivers are usually nearby.

Either way - really depends on paingivers for the animi - which means he's not killing things up front. It makes him a little... schizophrenic in purpose.

My experience is usually either the savage isn't fighting yet, in which case I spend his Fury to use it on the warlock or another beast, or else the warlock casts it on a beast. (Or Shaman, which is probably the best way.)

It's also one of the handiest animi to use via Farrow Bone Grinders. (Indeed, given the awesomeness of the BB's animus, I'm putting FBG in lists again.)

[Deathraven]

I think prescience should go down to one. Then I would actually use it on someone other than eMorghoul.

[Amon]

Another vote for prescience going down to 1 in cost. +1 str or brutal charge would also be pretty cool, but I really would like the cheaper animus best.

[Earthcrosser599]

I think it works just fine as it is. It's one of the few mk2 Skorne models that has always seemed perfect.

[Pantheon]

I think he's is 4.5 point beast.

Great animus and fast with reach. All a big plus.

I just wish he popped a bit more....

If they made him more in line with the axer in power and made him 6 points I would be happy.

However would he be undercosted with ps 14....no he wouldn't. Granted we could get him to be crazy with ps 16 and +2inch move....but since that now takes 12 points invested just for the combo pieces I don't think that's crazy

[Earthcrosser599]

I don't want him going up to 6 points. It hurt having the Shaman go from 4 to 5, and having the Cyclops go from 5 to 6 would suck.

[Deathraven]

If the savage goes up to 6 he'd better be as broken as the axer! I want rush and a power 15 thresher for 6pts too. :p

[cunningweasel]

He's not. He's really not. Its a case of using a synergy nerf as an excuse to buff a perfectly fine model.

I agree with this. The Savage looks perfectly fine to me, and I see no reason to fix him. Everyone is just getting greedy now due to the fix to the stuff that did blow.

[Hollywoodxxl]

Im starting to dislike how all the factions are seeing the same models, with the same abilities, with the same point cost.

Its starting to feel bland.

Interesting. I never thought of that. Its super late (for me) and I cant think clearly. Without de-railing the thread can you post some cross faction examples. Again...this is an interesting point

[Hollywoodxxl]

I vote keep him at 5 and PLEASE dont change the animus!

Just a question here...why is the shaman at 5 so bad? I still think he serves his purpose quite well

[Mnkylord]

I tend to agree that the Savage feels like a 4.5 point beast... But I really don't know what I'd do to make him just better enough that he isn't broken, or doesn't feel like my trusty Savage of old, either.

His animus is excellent... If that ever changed, I would cry myself to sleep at night.

But I am definitely going to miss the Savage Missile. The change to the Beast Handler's Enrage really chaps my ***. :| Maybe give him the ability to charge at SPD + 5"?

[lord tyrant watt]

Interesting. I never thought of that. Its super late (for me) and I cant think clearly. Without de-railing the thread can you post some cross faction examples. Again...this is an interesting point

just a couple of quick things that i can blow off the top of my head are..

Grab and smash is on a lot of beasts and jacks
The Brute/devout/nef soldier/bokur/bouncer all the same roll
A ton of cross faction spells and abilities

Now i know things have to be streamlined and its got to be damn hard to make each faction unique in its own way. I dont have a solution, I just wish things were not so streamlined.

[Z]

How about giving him Defensive Strike? He sees the ebb and flow of battle, why not give him an extra out of turn attack? That'd keep from making him too strong/weak, and leave him at his current PC.

[lord tyrant watt]

How about giving him Defensive Strike? He sees the ebb and flow of battle, why not give him an extra out of turn attack? That'd keep from making him too strong/weak, and leave him at his current PC.

Not a bad idea Z. I kind of like it!:D

FLUFFY!!!

[Verjigorm]

So, let me see this: Mark 1, the Cyclops was used to occasionally spam-off intuition, but most often people enraged him and sent him hurtling off at something to smack it a few times. The "cruise missile". That was the Savage's role in mk1. And it was useful, but not that great.

The comes MK2, and skorne players are up in arms about why their faction sucks so much, it's terrible and they have no option's, and need buffs. Meanwhile, those of us who are sitting across the table, watching P+S 15 cyclops come screaming at us from 13-15" away, depending on the caster. And skorne infantry are charging/advancing 11" or so under most casters. Those long threat ranges are amazing against armies that lack potent long-ranged firepower. And that's where the problem started emerging: skorne casters were devoid of buff spells and abilities, because those things do too much for them.

The problem was that it meant that outside of eMakeda and Xerxis, Skorne wasn't really doing anything. Well, pMakeda was ok, but the other casters were struggling with troops and beasts that could get there quick, but especially in the troops, can't really fight anybetter once they get there. And that sucked. So Privateer Press jerked away the long-threat-ranges and changed things a bit, and what happened?

People are asking for the crutches they used before. But here's the thing: Skorne's legs are mostly functional now. You don't need the crutches. You get a cheap, tough and capable reach beast for 5pts. He's solid, and he doesn't need the buff.

Again, he's fine where he is. The over-head to get the 13" charge is more expensive, but he's still a great, solid beast.

[NaCl Catapulto]

Verjigorm - Hit the nail on the head. Savage is still a 5-pt CC beast par excellence for Skorne, and the animus can be gold when you need to seal the deal and fury is tight for the model is question. Sure, I'd love to see it at 1 - and I can see a case made (I'm not sure how) now that the Shaman doesn't get his discount.

Nonetheless, he's an efficient, nasty beatstick. If he's in the fray, he earns his 5, I find. Or you can keep him back if things are too hot - until late game, keep him back near your caster/pg's as a transfer target, using his animus to allow you frontline beasts optimum usage of fury.

Presience is still gold - but it's primariy a PLANNING tool that's difficult to attach a value to when compared to something much direct, like Rush or Diminish. It allows for flexibilty in execution, and better coping strategies when the odds are, well.... odd.

[werecat]

See, sometimes I think that the savage is fine for 5 points. Then I realize that the Nomad is 6 points... I really think that ALOT of melee light warbeasts should be cheaper. If not the savage, then the Nephilim soldier really should be 4. Especially if that damnable buccaneer can be 3.

[kantoboy]

People are asking for the crutches they used before.

Skorne had crutches? :rolleyes: You mean like Alten? oh wait...

The problem with the savage right now is he is a little lacking outside of makeda / xerxis. Yes, he is stupid good with Makeda / xerxis though. Believe me I dont want to be on the PP rules designers shoes right now. However, if I dont take Makeda / xerxis, the cyclops usefulness drops considerably. His lack of range and pathfinder, makes him a little tricky to use properly. His low threshold doesn't help either.

[NaCl Catapulto]

Addition to the post: The Savage tended to find his way into my lists with Hexeris, Zaal, and Mordikaar - high-fury 'locks that had a good spell/ranged attacks that I wanted to maximize each turn. Now with the Shaman's Craft Talisman *Action, I see keeping him around as an early-game fury/animi battery & late-game cleaner as an even more appealing option.

[Verjigorm]

The nomad is undercosted. He's one of three models that provides high P+S for the Mercenaries as a faction, and he's still not that good at it. But he's better than a Crusader, for dang sure. But again, when it comes to putting down damage with a Merc army, the Nomad, Mangler and Mariner have the highest P+S outside of the rhulic jacks(who in turn limit your jack selection to three heavies and two lights) available to mercs. And since that's P+S 17, which is low for a heavy jack, he needs to be cheap or we couldn't afford to spam nomads to take down enemy heavies. Notice I said Nomads, because I find I need to use two heavies to take down an enemy heavy, and it's usually a Nomad and Mangler, or twin Nomads.

Keep in mind that the mercenaries also have no ability to buff their jacks outside of casters, that isn't available to most of the factions in the game. Sure, i can use Gorman, Eiryss, Aiyana and all kinds of others to tweak out damage buffs or armor de-buffs, but so can a cygnar player, or a menoth player, or even a Khador player. In addition, as a side bonus: mercs don't have access to too many high strength weapon master units.

It's little things like that, which shave off the points cost of the Nomad to managable levels. But how does the Cyclops measure to other lights, and especially fighty combat lights. And he comes out quite nice, maybe he's not on par with the axer, impaler or bouncer(so you always take him), but you do get returns in his speed and defence. Those little one point differences may not sound like much, but they add up.

Remember, a Savage can still be enraged, he can now be Rushed by a bronze back, so he can retain that potential long range threat, but only in particular builds. Which should be par for the course. As far as light beasts go, he's quite good. And the low cost of a pair of savages can work well with more troop heavy casters(like Xerxis!): for a little more than a heavy, you've got two good reach beasts to hang out beside xerxis and bodyguard him. Savages are harder than Cetrati to kill, so it makes for a better ablative guard for Xerxis. Since they're all the same size, you don't have to worry about your gladiator getting slammed back through the cetrati and Xerxis now.

I think it's an ok beast. I still use them when i occasionally play skorne, and I'd take one in the place of my bouncer or impaler in some of my lists. He's a solid working beast, and I think if anything he suffers from a feeling of just right. Sure, he seems kinda plain, but he didn't really lose anything. If you were running a Bronzeback and Savage before the update to skorne, then you've still get the same trick, but with a better angel: pathfinder. It's tidy and nicely wrapped up.

Now comparing him to the Buccaneer, that makes me start smiling. The buc has less armor, but more hit boxes. It has a pow 10 melee weapon, and a ranged KD weapon that does no damage. It's not a combat jack by any means. And the Savage will trash him, even if he has to shake effects to get the charge(which he doesn't need because he can advance and swing). Buccaneer's melt to POW 10s quickly, let alone anything boosted or high in POW than 12. The savage is a bit more durable, and he definitely hits harder in melee. They don't even have the same role in their respective armies. The Cyclops is closer in role to the Talon, and he's clearly better than the talon.

[Cronix]

Lets compare the other 3 light melee warbeasts:

Gorax 4 pts, amazing warbeast, 2 initial melee attacks, good synergy with most warlocks/solos.
SPD 5 STR 9 MAT 6 RAT 3 DEF 13 ARM 16 CMD 5 FUR 4 THR 8
Pain Response, fury 4!!
Primal +2 MAT/STR auto frenzy, small price if you want to kill something tough.
<off topic: we could give the pain givers something like this, replace MAT with SPD>

Nephilim Soldier 5pts, has good synergy with most legion warlocks (Vayl, Saeryn, Abby, eThagrosh and maybe some other)
SPD 6 STR 9 MAT 6 RAT 3 DEF 13 ARM 16 CMD 8 FUR 3 THR 9
Reach, Relentless Charge + Eyeless sight can charge model beyond forest or smoke.
Massacre, free charge, and if you kill the target you gain a followup 1” + free attack.

Troll Axer 6pts, the axer is pretty amazing. Has a decent stat line a great animus, powerful (*attack) with reach.
SPD 5 STR 9 MAT 6 RAT 4 DEF 12 ARM 18 CMD 6 FUR 3 THR8
POW 15, (Thresher), Reach, Regeneration.
Rush +2” movement, pathfinder

Savage 5pts ok statline, good animus but is not selfpowerd like the warbeast above. In some ways this beast needs some love!! Don't know what.
SPD 6 STR 8 MAT 6 RAT 3 DEF 13 ARM 17 CMD 6 FUR 3 THR 8
Prescience boost after roling, reach
Future Sight, is amazing animus, but its not that fury efficient you pay 2 fury to activate it :P.

[viperidae99]

Paying 2 fury to allow a 5 Fury Bronzeback, or better, a 7 Fury Warlock, to boost attack and/or damage rolls for all their attacks (including melee, ranged, spells etc.),
AFTER seeing the rolls, and then using Paingivers to make it cost 0...

That isn't fury efficient? Really? :confused:

It was labelled one of, if not the, best animi in the game in Mk1. It's exactly the same in Mk2, what's the issue?

[Cronix]

It was labelled one of, if not the, best animi in the game in Mk1. It's exactly the same in Mk2, what's the issue?

< Savage belongs in melee and not for casting this animus >

Back to the roots, in MKI the Skorne where the best of the best with fury management. In MKII all the other faction received ways handle fury management better.

With reducing the animus by -1 we get edge over the other faction, by spamming a cheap fury management animus.

[Yertle4]

It was labelled one of, if not the, best animi in the game in Mk1. It's exactly the same in Mk2, what's the issue?

It was? Never seen anyone cast it outside of eMorg assassination runs.

[goreshde]

Paying 2 fury to allow a 5 Fury Bronzeback, or better, a 7 Fury Warlock, to boost attack and/or damage rolls for all their attacks (including melee, ranged, spells etc.),
AFTER seeing the rolls, and then using Paingivers to make it cost 0...

That isn't fury efficient? Really? :confused:

It was labelled one of, if not the, best animi in the game in Mk1. It's exactly the same in Mk2, what's the issue?


Who said that? Name names so i can berate them.

I said this before, but I will say it again. Playing epic Skarre and Skorne I can tell you his animus is rarely focus efficient.

On epic Skarre it happens all the time on all of her battle group for free. You never know when you will need this ability and often times you wont. It is just in that rare case where it pays off, but those rare cases can come anywhere from any model and is too hard to predict.

With the Savage his animus requires this front line caster to either stay back and cast or force the warlock to cast it. Either way I have found not casting it and being awesome elsewhere is a much better use of fury. Change this to the harrier's animus.

I know, I know the harrier's animus is good and we as Skorne should not expect an animus as effective as legion, but I have seen the promise land. I have played with Rush. And while I think Rush should be replaced with the old style pain givers I am not willing to go back to terrible animi after playing with a good one. Fight for the Harrier's animus and come to grips with this is a terrible ability that I will gladly change for someone useful... anything useful.

[Arlaharen]

You could probably give him a little something for his five points. I'd love it if the animus went down to one but I suspect it's going to keep its price. He's still a very good beatstick for his five points.

[planescapedm]

I think dropping his animus to 1 fury cost would be fair. Especially since the Shaman doesn't reduce fury cost anymore.

[Rynth]

What about *Attack Backswing?

[chrsjxn]

Who said that? Name names so i can berate them.

I said this before, but I will say it again. Playing epic Skarre and Skorne I can tell you his animus is rarely focus efficient.

On epic Skarre it happens all the time on all of her battle group for free. You never know when you will need this ability and often times you wont. It is just in that rare case where it pays off, but those rare cases can come anywhere from any model and is too hard to predict.

With the Savage his animus requires this front line caster to either stay back and cast or force the warlock to cast it. Either way I have found not casting it and being awesome elsewhere is a much better use of fury. Change this to the harrier's animus.

I know, I know the harrier's animus is good and we as Skorne should not expect an animus as effective as legion, but I have seen the promise land. I have played with Rush. And while I think Rush should be replaced with the old style pain givers I am not willing to go back to terrible animi after playing with a good one. Fight for the Harrier's animus and come to grips with this is a terrible ability that I will gladly change for someone useful... anything useful.

Future Sight is a really nice innate ability for Hordes. Though I agree it's not often a very efficient Animus.

As for the Harrier, the Harrier's animus is actually a little weird in Legion. It works well for the Harrier itself, because the Harrier is usually going after high DEF, low ARM solos/troopers. But it's not particularly useful on just about any of our warlocks, except maybe pThagrosh.

I suspect you might find it similarly useful in Skorne.

[Donesh]

Thinking about this adding a slight buff would make the Savage's animus worthwhile. +1 to Attack Roles and Future Sight would greatly improve the animus. The Brute's could be changed in a similar manner too. +1 DEF and Steady.

[planescapedm]

Thinking about this adding a slight buff would make the Savage's animus worthwhile. +1 to Attack Roles and Future Sight would greatly improve the animus. The Brute's could be changed in a similar manner too. +1 DEF and Steady.

I like it!!

[goreshde]

I like it!!

Second!!!!!!!

[Mutton]

BREAK OUT THE CHAMPAGNE, WE HAVE A WINNER!
.
.
.
Will we be needing the midget butlers as well?

[Scalpel]

Thinking about this adding a slight buff would make the Savage's animus worthwhile. +1 to Attack Roles and Future Sight would greatly improve the animus. The Brute's could be changed in a similar manner too. +1 DEF and Steady.


Second!!!!!!!
Third vote !!!

[planescapedm]

Thinking about this adding a slight buff would make the Savage's animus worthwhile. +1 to Attack Roles and Future Sight would greatly improve the animus. The Brute's could be changed in a similar manner too. +1 DEF and Steady.

So we're all going to go submit this in feedback now right? :D:D:D:D

[Deathraven]

Nice one Donesh, you've got my vote!

[AlGouhti]

would a cost of 4 point be to low, on the curent incarnation?

[Deathraven]

would a cost of 4 point be to low, on the curent incarnation?

I'd say yes. He'd have to lose quite a bit to get that cheap, seen as he's fast, has reach and a reasonable hitting power. Though with the argus being 4pts anything is possible.:rolleyes:

[planescapedm]

I'd say yes. He'd have to lose quite a bit to get that cheap, seen as he's fast, has reach and a reasonable hitting power. Though with the argus being 4pts anything is possible.:rolleyes:

Don't talk about the argus, you'll just make me sad :(

Things like the argus make me wonder how PP decides what a models value is.

[Skeenip]

With the old paingivers he was pretty spot on for cost. With the current version of paingivers the Savage could use a slight boost somewhere, I like the idea of a cheaper animus (now that the shaman has changed) I also wouldn't mind brutal charge (although that might be a bit much). I think he just needs a "little" buff of some sort though to bring him to par with other faction 5 pointer lights though.

[Moonblade]

Thinking about this adding a slight buff would make the Savage's animus worthwhile. +1 to Attack Roles and Future Sight would greatly improve the animus. The Brute's could be changed in a similar manner too. +1 DEF and Steady.

Nice one, Donesh. Do we all agree on this?

[Junn Khan]

BREAK OUT THE CHAMPAGNE, WE HAVE A WINNER!
.
.
.
Will we be needing the midget butlers as well?


The employees of searforge might be up for this but sadly they do not buttle. Not even one bit.

[NaCl Catapulto]

Second on the "cheaper prescience" idea. It's still a good animus, on a good beast - and now that the Shaman doesn't get a discount, it's not exactly spamming material.

I think the +1 to hit addition is asking for a bit much, and would see him up in the 6-point range, wherein everyone would complain he needs more to be competitive.

[DarkWonderer]

Second on the "cheaper prescience" idea. It's still a good animus, on a good beast - and now that the Shaman doesn't get a discount, it's not exactly spamming material.

I think the +1 to hit addition is asking for a bit much, and would see him up in the 6-point range, wherein everyone would complain he needs more to be competitive.


As much as I like Donesh's idea, I must agree. Templating is sketchy and it might be a little too much. I want Savage to stay at 5 so lowering Prescience cost to 1 fury looks like a winner to me.

[Deathraven]

To be honest I'd be happy with either idea.

[Earthcrosser599]

If all this crap gets him pushed up to 6 points I will be so sad.

[Helion]

Don't know if anyone suggested this, that is a lot to read, but why not give him something akin to sidestep? Sidestep would suck given that he has only 1 base attack, but given that Molik got that sort of ability, and he's basically a grown up Savage, the savage should follow suit. Maybe Overtake?

[cunningweasel]

I think you're all dreaming, and that PP are going to keep the Savage as is. He seems pretty okay to me for a 5 point beast.

[Helion]

Correction. He was pretty good with Pain givers giving him a 13" threat range with POW 15. Now he has 11" threat. A slight buff is in order. And it would be great if he had a movement ability akin to Molik's sidestep. Why not?

[Citizen_Nutter]

Maybe something more subtle added. After all, they are trained to compliment the army

Martial discipline: Model may charge and attack through models up to a medium base.

Just had this thought of Praetorians rushing up against enemy formations with a Cyclops grinning as his massive blade flickered above and around them (with his spider senses it would explain him never hitting a friendly).

[Scalpel]

If all this crap gets him pushed up to 6 points I will be so sad.
He isn't worth 5pts ATM ... hence the discussion.

Either make him 4pts (imho a touch too cheap), or improve him a little to make hime worth the 5pts.

No one here want him at 6pts, and unless he got +2 POW and Rush as animus he shouldn't be 6pts!

[Sevwall]

I really, reaqlly don't get it. He has really good threat range, nice power, and amazing Fury efficiency. Also great Defensive stats at 13/17. I really, really don't get the issue. The Paingivers were OP. They were reduced. This doesn't give you the right to make all your beasts OP to balance it out.

[planescapedm]

Thinking about this adding a slight buff would make the Savage's animus worthwhile. +1 to Attack Roles and Future Sight would greatly improve the animus. The Brute's could be changed in a similar manner too. +1 DEF and Steady.

I'm going to submit feedback for this animus idea. I might submit feedback for the brute idea too but I find that his animus is already pretty useful as is.

Nice job Donesh!

[Scalpel]

I really, reaqlly don't get it. ... This doesn't give you the right to make all your beasts OP to balance it out.
No you don't get it, probably because you don't play Skorne.

Firstly paingivers were no OP ... I assume you mean Over Powered and not just Old People. There was nothing wrong with them in MK1 or MK2 ... only when we got SPD 6 Heavies did things get a little out of hand.


We are not asking for ALL our Warbeasts to be OP ... just the one's that used Enrage a lolt previously. Are we asking that ALL warbeasts get +1 SPD/POW etc.. to make up for the lose ? No.

So don't please don't insinuate otherwise.

Molik doesn't need the speed, he's a damm heavy. Titan's ... no mater how bonkers I think the synergy is ... don't need it either at the moment.

This one Light does ... becasue out of ALL the warbeasts he was hit the hardest with the change.

Mostly because he was only barely worth th 5pts before the update.

But hay lets look at something here :-

Was the Savage + Paingivers broken in MK1?
Were they broken in MK2 pre-patch?
Were they say like Calandra and Pygs?

If NO to all those, then maybe you can see we had some nice synergy taken away from him, and now we want something to replace it.

If PP reduced the +2 ARM from the KSA to just +1 ARM ... wouldn't you be asking on the forums for all models to get +1 ARM to make up for it?

[Donesh]

I'm going to submit feedback for this animus idea. I might submit feedback for the brute idea too but I find that his animus is already pretty useful as is.


I submitted feedback on both already, but more certainly helps! Skorne has a lot of animi that are corner cases. Giving some form of minor buff pushes them beyond that. I would love to see how this change on the Brute because its animus would then work well on itself. I kinda wish the Savages animus would do this too.

[Verjigorm]

If PP reduced the +2 ARM from the KSA to just +1 ARM ... wouldn't you be asking on the forums for all models to get +1 ARM to make up for it?

I wouldn't care, because I barely use the thing, and when I do take it it's for the ancillary benefits of the UA, rather than the +2 ARM(which is handy).

As regards the rest: meh. The Savage is a perfectly fine beast. If you compare him to other 5pt beasts, he's doing just fine. Compare him to the Nephilim soldier, who has 1 more STR, but 1 less ARM. The Neffie has relentless charge, which is nice, while the Savage has future sight.

The only thing the Savage lost is the +2spd buff from the Paingivers, and honestly: that stuff was annoying, both for skorne and against skorne. Against skorne you had to deal with 13" charges from P+S 15 light beasts, that were obscenely accurate and focus efficient. From the skorne perspective we we're saddled with slow beasts that floundered in rough terrain, and few enough ways to get around it. Why, because the paingive buff made all skorne bests obscenely fast. And you're right, it wasn't an over-the top problem untill you got SPD 6 heavies, but now the rubicon has been crossed and we have to deal with it.

Now, if you can explain to me why the Savage sucks, without using the paingivers in the arguement, maybe I will listen to you. Because currently, he's still a good beast.

[Mutton]

The Neph Soldier also needs some tweaks IMO. Right now the savage feels like a 4.5 beast; just needs a little more.

[Sevwall]

The Savage + Paingiver combo was very, very good. It is now only good.

Still good! People are clamoring to get 'very good' again. Thats not the way to balance a faction.

[Mutton]

I don't think they are clamoring to make it superspecialawesome again; it was a nice combo, but right now the Savage is a sad panda. The Axer, for example, is way more than 1pt better than him. He just needs a slight buff to make me want to take him again.

[Verjigorm]

What specific buffs would you be looking at? Any thing you've come across in your playtesting?

[Sevwall]

The Axer loses 1 DEF, 1 SPD, Future Sight over the Savage, and gains 1 ARM, 2 POW, Thresher

That sounds like a point to me.

The Nephalim loses 1 ARM and Future Sight, and gains 1 POW, 1 THR, Eyeless sight and Relentless Charge. Accounting for faction differences, this sounds like I'm comparing two beasts of the same point value.

He is good now. Calling for buffs (not lateral shifts, straight up buffs) to a good model is not the point of this field test.

[Scalpel]

As regards the rest: meh. The Savage is a perfectly fine beast..
I don't cross faction compare ... because there are too many faction synergies that effect its points.

Was there call from other players/factions to NERF the Savage pre-paingiver change? No? Then I rest my case.

[Pickles]

The Axer loses 1 DEF, 1 SPD, Future Sight over the Savage, and gains 1 ARM, 2 POW, Thresher

That sounds like a point to me.

The Nephalim loses 1 ARM and Future Sight, and gains 1 POW, 1 THR, Eyeless sight and Relentless Charge. Accounting for faction differences, this sounds like I'm comparing two beasts of the same point value.

He is good now. Calling for buffs (not lateral shifts, straight up buffs) to a good model is not the point of this field test.

Would you care to swap animi than if they are otherwise a point apart?

[Sevwall]

So, if the chronicler or the fellcaller gets worse, by extension every single infantry unit that is okay now should get buffed?

Your reasoning is .... unreasonable.

[planescapedm]

I really do not understand why people troll faction forums they don't play. We, as a community, feel that the Savage lost a lot of power from the massive update and synergy change that happened. We are discussing how to make up for it. Do you guys some how think you have more play experience with the savage than the Skorne community?

I view the savage as a very good, albeit expensive, missal. And as all missals, their power is extremely dependent on their threat range. Since the cyclops now only has an 11" threat range, with no movement abilities such as pathfinder, I see this expensive missal as much more situational than I'd like a 5 point beast to be. Also, with such an expensive missal I need to make sure what I aim it at is worth it, lower threat range means fewer targets, and it also means the worth while targets are more easily defended.

Please post some examples, from games you've played since the update that support your claims.



The Axer loses 1 DEF, 1 SPD, Future Sight over the Savage, and gains 1 ARM, 2 POW, Thresher

That sounds like a point to me.

AHAHAHAHA, 1 less Speed. Nevermind the fact that he can give himself +2 SPD and pathfinder for an even greater threat range than our cyclops. The Savage's animus does NOTHING for him. Also with thresher you want to target units that are probably going to be upfront an accessible, not important beasts/solos. Also, the Axer has the ability to heal himself if an aspect drops. Our paingivers are not going to be able to get up to the savage to heal him if he charged 11". Your Animus is also much much more useful for your entire army. Casting Future Sight on something for 2 Fury can often prove inefficient. Lets also keep in mind that I am comparing a Savage and a PG Unit for a total of 7 points versus your 1 6-point Axer with NO buffs.

Since you said that the differences you stated sound like a fair 1 point to you... by pointing out all of these other differences which you overlooked, you must now agree that the Savage is underpowered... right?

[Scalpel]

Now, if you can explain to me why the Savage sucks, without using the paingivers in the arguement, maybe I will listen to you. Because currently, he's still a good beast.
OK ...

Shaman costs the same, has a ranged attack and melee attack, can cast any animus, and buffs our warlocks. Ok it's -1 MAT and -2 POW but it's more versatile.

Drake costs 4pts, has -1 MAT and POW and has a Ranged Attack.

Brute, costs 5pts as well, has 2 attacks and -1 MAT.

So apart form furture site, which he may use a fair bit ... the animus hardly get's cast now with the MAT 6 Heavies running about.

Ofc this is a pointless debate, as you won't see things from our point of view, and just think the grass is greeneron ths side of the fence.

[Pickles]

I thought he was a bit meh without the paingiver change & do not see it making that much difference. He is a 5 point beast but would be one if he was a bit better (but not if he was a bit worse). He is very dull in terms of abilities - he is like a car with good fuel economy - not as exciting as going faster or being a convertible.

Improving his animus is the only thing I can see that would not make him a borderline too good 5 point beast (+1 MAT or P&S are on the cusp IMO). Reducing its cost to 1 is the obvious change that does not push him too far. TBH I am not sure it really does much as his animus is far less use than I thought it would when I first saw Primal - it's no rush :rolleyes:

Imaginative game designers may come up with better tweaks.

I am really not asking to make him OP just cos the paingivers changed. (Though he no longer out threats charging reach infantry so it may be a big deal)

[planescapedm]

I thought he was a bit meh without the paingiver change & do not see it making that much difference. He is a 5 point beast but would be one if he was a bit better (but not if he was a bit worse). He is very dull in terms of abilities - he is like a car with good fuel economy - not as exciting as going faster or being a convertible.

Improving his animus is the only thing I can see that would not make him a borderline too good 5 point beast (+1 MAT or P&S are on the cusp IMO). Reducing its cost to 1 is the obvious change that does not push him too far. TBH I am not sure it really does much as his animus is far less use than I thought it would when I first saw Primal - it's no rush :rolleyes:

Imaginative game designers may come up with better tweaks.

I am really not asking to make him OP just cos the paingivers changed. (Though he no longer out threats charging reach infantry so it may be a big deal)

Grats on your 1000th post Pickles! :p

[planescapedm]

This may seem like a cheap way out but it also fits the fluff really well ... what about ...

Born In Captivity: When a Paingiver Beast Handler uses the Enrage Beast Manipulation on this model, it gains +2" of movement when making a charge, slam, or trample power attack.

I know the cyclops can't trample but I just added it to keep the ability in the spirit of being non model specific. Hm, but this would also mean that we're looking at a ridiculous 15" threat range if we bring in the BB's animus, so nvm I guess. :(

[viperidae99]

I'm going to have to go against the fold, and maintain the view that the Savage is fine as is.

We aren't the alpha strike faction. We had a few tricks in Mk1 and we still have some tricks in Mk2 so far,
they just aren't based on an individual unit. We have locks that speed up beasts, and we have a good animus
to throw around on an expensive beast (probably why he's expensive).

The Savage seems fine to me. The Titans can get some speed going if you have a Bronzeback for 10pts + another one.
Then they average SPD 5-7. Or for 5 pts, you can get a SPD 6 light. With reach...what's wrong with an 11" threat range?
Does 13" really make that much difference?

The Savage is fast, he's tough, he hits hard with the slightest of buffs, and he's got a great animus that is
built into him. What's not to like? So you don't get +2 from the Paingivers any more. Big deal. If you need
it that badly, take a Bronzeback or a mobility warlock.

He used to have synergy with the Paingivers. So did every beast. I used to love Death March on my Ferox.
The lack of Death March doesn't mean the Ferox need a buff now.

The biggest thing with this is I worry when people start complaining about stuff that works. Pretty soon,
its stats are going up and down, its points are up and down, and we're left with something that looks
nothing like what we used to play and love (see Molik Karn for what can be done to something that's fine to begin with).

The Savage is a 5pt beast that hasn't changed from Mk1. I think that alone should indicate how balanced he is.

[Scalpel]

Does 13" really make that much difference?

If you need it that badly, take a Bronzeback or a mobility warlock.

The Savage is a 5pt beast that hasn't changed from Mk1. I think that alone should indicate how balanced he is.
1. If you have to ask that then imho you don't get the issue.

2. So your solution to replace a 2pt unit is to take 10pts warbeast?

3. He hasn't changed ... things around him have which have an impact on how he plays now.

[viperidae99]

1. I guess I don't get the issue. A Savage has more uses than alpha strike when I play, and I can match the exact speed he used to have if I want to.

2. My solution was you don't need a solution. If you miss the +2 movement of that 2-3 point unit so much, then change your FREE caster, or take a 10pt beast that's worth every point. Those are the options made available to us so far. I feel they're good enough.

3. Many things have changed. Every time something changes, we don't change everything they used to have an effect on.

If the Savage gets better in some way, I'll be cheering, I just don't find he needs anything,
and I worry that tinkering with him will cause us to lose some of the good parts he has,
in exchange for extras we don't really need.

[cunningweasel]

Correction. He was pretty good with Pain givers giving him a 13" threat range with POW 15. Now he has 11" threat. A slight buff is in order. And it would be great if he had a movement ability akin to Molik's sidestep. Why not?

The Paingivers still kept their 3 inch range to affect a beast as opposed to the MK1 base to base. I think this was taken into account when the 2 inches on Enrage was dropped. PP obviously thought that you were still actually gaining an inch due to the new rules.
Also, an eleven inch threat range is still extremely good, especially with such a fury efficient beast.

Of course a buff would be nice, but I don't see it happening or think it's needed.

[Scalpel]

1. I guess I don't get the issue. A Savage has more uses than alpha strike when I play, and I can match the exact speed he used to have if I want to.
I never said it didn't have other roles, I'm saying we lost a role for it.


3. Many things have changed. Every time something changes, we don't change everything they used to have an effect on.
True, but when something directly effects something you need still look at it ask "do the things it effects need adjusting" ... sometimes the answer is no ... othertimes it's yes. Imho this is one of those times.

[planescapedm]

The Paingivers still kept their 3 inch range to affect a beast as opposed to the MK1 base to base. I think this was taken into account when the 2 inches on Enrage was dropped. PP obviously thought that you were still actually gaining an inch due to the new rules.


What? How does the PGs being able to affect my beast from 3" away give my Savage a 12" threat range? Or are you saying it was a 10" threat range before when the PGs had to be in base to base? I do not understand what you are trying to say at all. Sorry. :(

[cunningweasel]

What? How does the PGs being able to affect my beast from 3" away give my Savage a 12" threat range? Or are you saying it was a 10" threat range before when the PGs had to be in base to base? I do not understand what you are trying to say at all. Sorry. :(

Yeah after re-reading it neither do I. It sounded correct in my head with all the calculations but when applied to the tabletop it doesn't matter.
Am on not much sleep and need to go bloody Christmas shopping.

[viperidae99]

I think you meant, because the beast can be 3" further ahead when you enrage it, you're actually gaining an inch over the +2 you used to get.
Doesn't follow perfectly, but lack of sleep and Christmas will do that.

I've found the 3" reach awesome for conditioning, as it always drove me nuts when I thought I was in 6" for emergency conditioning,
and then find out I'm just out and have suicided my Paingiver on a frenzying beast :(