Cataphract Arcuarii

[planescapedm]

Are people happy with the Arcuarii now? Point reduction is nice but I still wonder if they're worth the points. I admit that I am a fairly new Skorne player but thus far I have not been able to use them effectively.

I'd like to hear what everyone elses experiences and thoughts are.

[DarkWonderer]

They feel a lot more apeapling at thier new cost, but I'm still partial on them. Their awesome with Mordikaar's Void Lord/Hollow combo, but I'm not too happy about them without it. Is sense some potwntial with Hexeris Death March, but need to test it. If you take them you need Krea. With ARM 15 they're a bullet magnet.

[ketsugami]

I haven't experimented too much, but they feel cheap enough now to actually take. I only wish you could use them to drag large-based models somehow, like using CRA as has been suggested. (Fighting Circle Druids has traumatized me.)

[Scalpel]

Are people happy with the Arcuarii now? Point reduction is nice but I still wonder if they're worth the points
They could be a 5/8 unit and they still to me are nothing more but a cheaper Cetrati unit with a situational ranged attack.

IMHO they need redsigning from the ground up, not just tweaked.

[Deathraven]

I think they are worth it with the right warlocks. Mordikaar, the Makedas, Hexeris and Xerxis look like they'll all work well though I havn't had chance to test them all yet.

[KaalTheWanderer]

With the point reduction I consider them worth taking. They could almost be considered 'budget cetrati'.

In my field test games, I've been blitzing them forward trying to spread them out as far as I can while remaining in formation. If (and only if) I present my opponent with at least 2-3 other serious threats, 2 or 3 Arcuarri will then be left alive to deliver a punchy counter strike.

[Cronix]

How to fix their ranged attack:

There was always the dilemma with this ranged attack it was MKI and it is still there in MKII, if this unit wants aiming bonus this units become accurate (effective RAT 7) but range was not that impressive. If they move they can drag something in from a greater distance if they can hit that is. So charging was the only solution to make them effective, but they paid for their ranged attack that did nothing.

In the Primal fluff mentioned that this weapon is based on a crossbow, in real life if you take the time for a steady shot you can shoot further and more accurate.


- Page 139 Arcus - ....construction of small but extremely strong crossbow mechanisms....
Steady Shot [or an other proper name] - This model can forfeit its movement to give this weapon +4 RNG this activation and gain the aiming bonus.

With this ruling they become supreme with their ranged attack:
- Charge 5 + 3 = 8” + 2” reach that is 10" threat range / steady shot that is 12” threat range (but you lose the weapon master die and charged boost but seems like a decent trade-off)
- Move and fire 5” + 8” = 13” treat range / steady shot that is 12” threat range (ok, here wins the move and fire by a inch, but loses the aiming bonus).


How to make them unique:

By returning Hog Tie, it will make them unique, and will fix the lost of the SPD buff that the Beast Handlers gave. Drag-in a heavy and let heavy warbeast charged it, if you can imagine it, its full of win :D.

Hog Tie (order) – When two or more models participate in a combined ranged attack these models can drag a larger based model. [correct this text with correct english]

So with these rules the unit will look like this:


Cataphract Arcuarii

SPD 5 STR 7 MAT 7 RAT 5 DEF 12 ARM 15 CMD 9

FA: 2
Point Cost: Leader & 3 Grunts: 6 ~ 7
Leader & 5 Grunts: 9 ~ 10
Base Size: Medium
Damage: 8

Leader & Grunts
Combined Ranged Attack
Fearless
Hog Tie (order) – When two or more models participate in a combined ranged attack these models can drag a larger based model.

Weapons
Harpoon [1x] RNG: 8 ROF: 1 AOE: - POW: 12
Drag - If this weapon damages an enemy model with an equal or smaller base, immediately after the attack is resolved the damaged model can be pushed any distance directly toward this model. After the damaged model is moved, this model can make one normal melee attack against the model pushed. After resolving this melee attack, this model can make additional melee attacks during its combat action.
Steady Shot [or an other proper name] - This model can forfeit its movement to give this weapon +4 RNG this activation and gain the aiming bonus

Arcus [1x] POW: 5 P+S: 12
Reach
Weapon Master

[Scalpel]

I still think Weapon Master should be on the Ranged Attack not the Melee Attack ... then they become a ranged unit ... and not cheaper Cetrati.

[Cronix]

I still think Weapon Master should be on the Ranged Attack not the Melee Attack ... then they become a ranged unit ... and not cheaper Cetrati.

Seems like a good idea, but what do you think of my version?

[Skeenip]

I like them at their new pt cost and have been having a good measure of success with them so far. With TC they can open up some interesting drags with a 15" threat, good counters to other medium infantry or light beasts/jacks on the ranged and hit hard as nails in melee. They still need some babysitting though, but at least at this point cost it's more reasonable.

[Moonblade]

I've been using them in every game since the last update, and I could say they're doing quite well. For 2 points less than Cetratis they're really appealing. Usually I use them in 2-men CRA for some accurate shooting, and most of the time it works beautifully.

The best targets for them are medium-based beefy units (Exemplar Bastions, Trollkin Champions, Warmongers, etc.). They have advantage in threat range (5" movement + 8" harpoon shot) and even more with the TC.

I actually like them as they are now, but a point cost reduction would be appropriate.

[Skeenip]

A point cost reduction would put them in the realm of immortals, I think they're sitting at the right cost now. Whether or not they need more adjustment probably needs more testing, but they're feeling just about right now.

[Earthcrosser599]

I actually like them as they are now, but a point cost reduction would be appropriate.

Another point reduction? Do they really need to be 5 points for a minimum squad?

[Earthcrosser599]

Are people happy with the Arcuarii now? Point reduction is nice but I still wonder if they're worth the points. I admit that I am a fairly new Skorne player but thus far I have not been able to use them effectively.

I'd like to hear what everyone elses experiences and thoughts are.

I think they are excellent the way they are now. They hit hard, can shoot, can CRA, and can take a hit or two before dying.

[Moonblade]

Maybe I was saying about the point cost reduction due to the synergy I don't have from my usual warlock. I don't know, but most of the time they don't kill their points. Although so, I like them being able to shoot and drag, and usually getting the first shot. For their points I'll still take them, especially when they're fighting for a place in the list with.. Venators..

With Mordikaar they're really doing their job well.

[planescapedm]

I mentioned giving them assault before. That would increase their threat range. But I still think they need a higher RAT. They should have a higher RAT than the venators.

[werecat]

I think they either need +1 arm or defensive line. But even without, they're ALOT more appealing with the lower points cost.

[Yertle4]

6/9 they seem ok to me.

I would like a CRA vs large bases for additional utility but I don't see it happening unless they go back to 7/10. The range is an issue but I find them to be pretty useful regardless.

[Mnkylord]

My 2 cents:

I think they're sitting at the right points cost now as it is.

However, I think Weapon Master on ranged shots is probably not the way to go. Otherwise, why bother dragging a model into melee? Just shoot to kill. And I think that undermines what makes them cool and unique: the ability to pull an enemy model out of position, and make them pay dearly for their insolence. :) I'd prefer they maintain that, instead of being little more than walking ballistas.

But I do agree they need a something more to distinguish them from the Cetrati.

- I'd give them +1 RAT, maybe -1 MAT?
- Give models that contribute to the CRA the ability to also make a melee attack after the drag?
- Give them Hog Tie again. Or perhaps the ability to drag a large based model if at least 3 models inflict damage?

[NaCl Catapulto]

At +1 rat, I'd put them back up at 7/10. I still like them, and I find their added durability has helped them alot in the game's I've done. As always, they shine against multi-wound medium-based models, particularly ranged beast/'jacks and Arc nodes. Still our #1 boys for sheer damage, and CRA + drag allows you to screw with your opponent in some pretty crucial ways. Remember, in their fluff they're the hunters of the cataphract caste - remember to use them as such. Pick and choose.

Now that the Tyrant Commander no longer grants extra move on the charge, that bonus becomes all the more meaningful for ranged/hybrid troops that can use that +2 in an offensive fashion.

[Joroth]

Perhaps I'm just not thinking straight, but now after reading the drag rules, please someone tell me if I'm reading this right.

1. shoot something and drag it in
2. make a melee attack on what was dragged in
3. make additional melee attacks if desired

So... this means three attacks, one ranged and two melee?

[planescapedm]

One of the officials, I believe it was DC, said that the last sentence of drag was in case
there was a buff in the future that would allow a unit with drag a second attack. For
instance, if Xerxis still had Merciless Assault. The unit does not get 3 attacks on its own.

Remember that abilities are worded for any model now. So the last sentence of drag on
the Cryx Reaper Helljack makes a lot more sense.

[Mutton]

It's for the Reaper; he can spend focus to buy attacks.

[alexandyr]

5 points for 4x 8 wound models seems a bit crazy. I think they are pretty solid in their current form and price, especially with a TC or any movement boosting spell to back them up.

Being able to combine to drag large based models would be great though, as right now they are situationally great against heavy infantry only.

[Moonblade]

And warbeasts.

Clarify this again for me, please, can an Arcuarius shoot and drag a model then the rest does melee attack?

[Skeenip]

@Moonblade: Yes, combat actions are done on an individual model basis. One guy can shoot for the drag and if you position right the rest can just beat on him. Or you can play soccer with shoot drag + beat semi circle.

[Scalpel]

5 points for 4x 8 wound models seems a bit crazy.
You have seen the Cryx Black Ogrun Boarding Party right?

+1 SPD, everything else the same. 4/6 points for 3/5 models.

+1 POW on Melee, -No Weapon Master.

4/3 = 1.33 per model for BOBP.
6/5 = 1.2 per model for BOBP.

6/4 = 1.5pts per model for Arcuarri.
9/6 = 1.5pts per model for Arcuarri.


So roughy we are paying 0.3 pts more per model for Weapon Master, and we don't get a discout for taking a max unit, like most other units.

It's why I hate WM on the damm melee weapon ... I feel we are paying a premiumn for a ranged unit.

[KaalTheWanderer]

Just logged in my first caster kill with an Arcuarus.

- E Sorsha chases void spirit, slightly too close to the Skorne lines. Pops feat, winter guard army destroys almost everything around. Leaves 1 Arcuarus alive. Mordikaar revives Arcuarus, placing him into striking distance.Mordikaar casts hollow on Arcuarii. Charge ESorscha with boosted attack, hits, almost kills her....

Cyclops slams Arcuarrus, killing Sorscha with the collateral damage. Maybe didn't 'technically' kill her with the cataphract but it was close enough :P

[Mnkylord]

I had a great game with the Arcuarii last night. Used them to track down, and punish mercilessly a Cygnar Hunter that had been brutalizing my poor Canonneer. After that, they took an opportunity to decimate the Black 13th (my god, those guys are vile, btw).

Now, that said, they were Hollowed with Mordikaar, which makes their ranged attack sooo much more worth taking, because you don't have to use the CRA to pull enemy models in for a beating.

On their own, the RAT 5 just kind sucks on two fronts:
1.) Very difficult to hit models with even a modest defense on one's own.
2.) But then, if you use your CRA, you're very likely to give up the melee attacks that make the drag such a great ability.

So, right now, I'm on the fence as to whether I would field them in a non-Mordikaar list. They function reasonably well as light-Cetrati even if I never used their Harpoon, which is nice, I suppose. But I do wish their ranged attack had a little more oomph without needing Mordi to make them really functional.

[Donesh]

Or you can play soccer with shoot drag + beat semi circle.

After the first drag how are you hitting the target now that its in melee?

[Skeenip]

I only try that with mordikaar, it was fun but not super reliable.

[kantoboy]

+1 SPD, everything else the same. 4/6 points for 3/5 models.

+1 POW on Melee, -No Weapon Master.


I was wondering the same thing. Why is the arcuari so expensive?

[werecat]

So roughy we are paying 0.3 pts more per model for Weapon Master, and we don't get a discout for taking a max unit, like most other units.



Weaponmaster AND reach. I think .3 points more a model is fair for that.

[hooksy67]

champs dont get a discount for taking a min unit (and i know you said most but they are the same category)

[Pantheon]

I think they are fine...

With both e morg (feat turn) and morkidaar they are just great. With others they are solid. Not every model needs to excell with eery caster and list. The fact that they are amazing with 2 casters and solid all around is more than enough for me.


+ krea debuff followed by arcurai is sooo funny. If you space them right you can even drag a model out of combat due to def 7 + 4 for in combat is still only 11!

[Earthcrosser599]

They've worked well for me under Xerxis. Defender's Ward can help offset not taking Cetrati and dragging things into Xerxis' charge range can help offset his slightly slower speed.

[Scalpel]

Weaponmaster AND reach. I think .3 points more a model is fair for that.
Sorry that came out wrong, I didn't mean 0.3pt extra was bad ... I actaully meant it as a good!

My problem with them, and will always be with them unless they change, is that they are a situational ranged unit, but an awesome melee unit. So why not take these instead of Cetrati?

Please don't ask for the Cetrati to lose WM etc... they are actaully fine in the role they play.

The problem is this unit doesn't know what it wants to be ... so needs focus. Imho that's make them a better ranged unit and less of a melee unit.

[NaCl Catapulto]

Drag is awesome, and has always been central to the arcuarii. + 1 rat, I can agree with (though it is pretty ambitious)... but not the weaponmaster swap. You throw it on the ranged attack, and why would you ever want to drag, given you'll be doing more damage at a range? You turn what is a situational (and still extremely useful ability) into something excessively cornercase... and once they've dragged something towards them, they can't finish it quickly, as they would no longer have the extra dice on melee.

I'll chime in with some other and say as is, they're really cheap for what you're getting. Arcuarii have worked much as they do now since their inception in Primal; campaigning to completely change their role/focus is a big thing.

We've actually seen alot of that lately - Paingivers being the far-reaching one. Collectively, we traded off most of our easy-access abilities that allowed us to overcome our slow speed and get a charge of first now and then; in return we've gotten a re-work of most of the faction to reflect that. Right now it seems like the forums are organized around setting up Faustian bargains, giving up a leg for an extra hand; our opinions reinforced by "strategic voting". PP is listening, and Skorne is changing.

Long a "synergy" faction, now it seems most who played Skorne disliked that aspect - or at least wanted the synergy to be OMGAMAZING, or nothing at all. Units and beasts were costed & designed based in part by how well they were supported by auxillary pieces like the TC and PG's, AG's (still) give bumps to immortals, Bronzebacks augmented Titans... and still do. Perhaps I'm putting emphasis on the wrong posts, but it seems like many are pushing to remove many of these small interactions between models in order to make them more powerful individually.

Well, that became a big rant. Summing it up, wasn't synergy one of our central themes? Do(did) many proposed changes aim to significantly lessen that, for minor bumps to individual models? Arcuarii seem fine, and cheap. Better damage, ranged ability, and reach, vs staying power. Sounds like a different role to me. Want to kill something dead from afar? Start talking about the Venators.

[AlGouhti]

Im not that keen on them getting weapon master on there ranged attack. I would much rather see the Harpoon get pushed up to POW 14 and the POW on the Arcus lowered to POW 3 or 4.

My Ideal Arcuarii would look something like this:

Cataphract Arcuarii

SPD 5 STR 7 MAT 6 RAT 6 DEF 12 ARM 15 CMD 9

FA: 2
Point Cost: Leader & 3 Grunts: 6
Leader & 5 Grunts: 9
Base Size: Medium
Damage: 8

Leader & Grunts
Combined Ranged Attack
Fearless
Hog Tie (order) – When two or more models participate in a combined ranged attack these models can drag a larger based model.

Weapons
Harpoon [1x] RNG: 8 ROF: 1 AOE: - POW: 14
Drag - If this weapon damages an enemy model with an equal or smaller base, immediately after the attack is resolved the damaged model can be pushed any distance directly toward this model. After the damaged model is moved, this model can make one normal melee attack against the model pushed. After resolving this melee attack, this model can make additional melee attacks during its combat action.

Arcus [1x] POW: 3 ~ 4 P+S: 10 ~ 11
Reach
Weapon Master

[Kommissar Golovko]

How about giving Arcuarii Armor Piercing on the harpoon? Would make them jack/beast hunters of Skorne.

[droffset]

I got a box of Arcuarii for the holiday, yay!

@NaCl Catapulto (http://privateerpressforums.com/member.php?u=14452), I agree.