Having a HORRIBLE time with eKreoss.

[tedwin183]

I have been playing against a 35pt Kreoss list that is just BRUTAL on me for some reason. As far as I can remember, it looks like this:

eKreoss
Avatar
Repenter
Revenger
Knights Exemplarx6
Bastionsx6
full Choir
Exemplar Gravus
Vassal

I am running this:

pButcher
Juggernaut
Kodiak
Greylords
Widowmakers
MoW STx3
MoW Drakhun
WG Mortar
WG Mortar

I couldn't manage to do anything to him before he got everything into my lines. Any advise on facing a list like this would help.

[Appolus]

I'm afraid I don't see a lot of viable Exemplar-killing power in your list besides the widowmakers. 2 mortars seems like too many for this point level against that list. Your MoW ST are heavy armor against a list that is made to peel it apart. I don't think they have the brawn to do much back against units that excel at killing them. You might want to stick something more killy in there, and see if that helps. Try Kayazy, or WG+Joe.

[vytzka]

Does anyone want to explain in broad strokes the exact ways this, and by extention any other eKreoss army, picks apart a Khador force? I'm familliar with Choirs and Vassals but not others.

[Avecrien]

Gravus and the repenter ignore shield wall and all the exemplars are weapon masters. And there're a lot of them. Avatar can tie up multiple models. So they're faster, more numerous, and ignoring our shield wall.

I don't believe in minimum units of MoW. Not points efficient and with STs the wall is thin enough to have limited use. I could throw in the Bears and a wardog or a Berserker for those points. I know Butcher needs his front line, but there are ways to bob and weave out of most harm's way if needbe. One less mortar crew would fill up the unit with points to spare.
I'm not a big fan of the mortar crew, I'd rather have my bombard strapped to big jacks. That's my bias though. I think Butcher runs Behemoth beautifully. Combined with Kodiaks chain-attack throwing models and you've got easy targets for bombards after the initial shots as you were advancing.
I think the Drakhun got hit hard by Mk2. He's good for countercharge if you need a bodyguard. Otherwise I'd get Fenris. Fenris is great for clearing clumps of troops and scaring the other player.

Edit: Also, if you've got Greylords fielded, and the defensive line infront of them is tied up in models you deem dangerous, do not hesitate to spray through them if you've got a shot at taking one or two down. A few hit boxes off a MoW isn't a big deal compared to the alternative no-hit-boxes your opponent was going for.

[marskitten]

Another problem I'm seeing is a lack of coverage/field control. You should be taking a unit of something to maximize the amount of ground you can tie up, attacks you can output and fury/if bonuses. I would drop either one of the jacks and take a unit or drop the mortars.

At 35 pts you really don't need to double up on dual mortars + widowmakers. His main problem is he'll be, at max with troopers outputting 13 attacks. If you take a single unit of IFP/KA you can match that, or with WG beat that every turn but his feat turn.

[tedwin183]

I have a full WG squad including 3 rockets, UA and joe coming for christmas...but I don't have them at this time. This list is for a campaign I am playing in. I am thinking of switching my list up to be this:

pButcher
Juggernaut
Kodiak
Wardog

Widowmakers
WG full+UA+3WA+joe

Mortar

eEiryss or pEiryss...can't decide.
Harlan Versh

I have also been considering removing the Mortar and Wardog and replacing them with Aiyanna and Holt. Giving that whole WG squad magic weapons for a turn is HOT. eEiryss is great for removing bad debuffs on my troops and for debuffing my opponent's stuff. pEiryss would be good for disruption and for the insta-kills she can do with phantom-seeker, behind the WG squad. Harlan is for making magic users pay for their indiscretions. Any thoughts?

[AndyFrazer]

I play eKreoss agaisnt pButcher all the time... can I ask a question?

Are you having problems with pButcher vs. eKreoss himself?

My typical tactic against pButcher is to knock him prone (typically by slamming a heavy into him) and then hitting him with eKreoss using Thrust (for AP), even with camped focus, Butcher can rarely survive more than 2 hits.

As has been said above, your opponent is running a lot of Weapon Masters, which help to break Khador's high ARM.

The secret to PoM is their mutual buffs... to beat it you need to prioritize your targets.

Use your Widowmakers to pick off the Choir and Vassal ASAP... you could also try to take them with your mortars... then try to take down the Exemplar

Then use your MoW to tie up the (hopefully reduced) Exemplar unit. That will make for a close fight and if Kreoss arcs spells through the Revenger, before you can get into melee, you are in trouble.

Your Juggernaught is pretty redundant, as it has a high chance of getting tied up in melee long enought to make it useless. You would be better with a Destroyer (who might also be able to arc shots at Kreoss... assuming the bastions are acting as a brick around or in front of him) or a Devastator (to shield the Butcher and rain of death any melee resistance).

Use the Drakun to take down the Revenger (to get rid of the arc node) and then try to take the Repenter (to save your MoW from fiery death).

The main thing to do is keep the Butcher on his feet and moving forward. This means preventing Kreoss from getting a knock down on you and getting the Butcher to charge Kreoss first.

Finally, you need to be ever aware of the eKreoss feat turn. +1 melee attacks with auto-hit and weapon master will put any of your models that are engaged into a blender... you need to hit fast and hard... you need to take the PoM out with your intial set of attacks or they will hit you back harder. If you are in any doubt that you will not kill your target with an initial attack, look for another target.

Hope that helps... but be aware... eKreoss was almost designed to put the hurt on the pButcher... so don't feel bad if you lose more times than you win.

[KenshiValion]

As far as I can remember, it looks like this:

eKreoss
Avatar
Repenter
Revenger
Knights Exemplarx6
Bastionsx6
full Choir
Exemplar Gravus
Vassal

I'd like to help out by supplying the actual list he is playing against. That could obviously help him out in the strategy department.

eKreoss
Avatar
Crusader
Dervish
Knights Exemplar x6
Exemplar Bastions x5
Choir of Menoth x6
Covenant of Menoth
Vassal of Menoth

It's kind of my fault for using a bunch of proxies during the battle, but I will be buying the rest of the models I need for this army with Christmas money.

[tedwin183]

Ah ha! I thought it was Gravus who gave that no knockdown, non-stationary thing. Anyways, yeah. I am realizing my list is not the most synergistic with pButcher, so that doesn't help much.

Anyways, yes, the above poster is, indeed, the opponent I faced.

[frostaxe]

I havent tested MK2 much but what about doomereavers here? Their extra speed, dmg, and magic resistance could be helpful?

[stray_bullett]

run dirty meg with a freebooter and a vanguard and use them to protect butch all the way to kreoss's front door.

[lce]

try the draghun vs kreoss

[Redphantasm]

Ah ha! I thought it was Gravus who gave that no knockdown, non-stationary thing. Anyways, yeah. I am realizing my list is not the most synergistic with pButcher, so that doesn't help much.

Anyways, yes, the above poster is, indeed, the opponent I faced.

Gravus does give no knockdown/no stationary, but only on exemplar models.

[tedwin183]

So I played against this very same list again today with the very same pButcher build. I have to say, the results were MUCH different. My deployment ended up being the winning factor. I refused his flank behind a small patch of woods and made him come to me.

Widowmakers RUINED his day. I took out half his Exemplars before they got close, half the choir and one-shotted the Vassal. All-in-all, the Widowmakers had to have taken down close to 10 pts by themselves. After that, I charged, with the Kodiak and Drakhun, forgetting to pop Butcher's feat! I did a bunch of damage, threw the avatar out of combat with the kodiak's chain attack, into charge range of my juggernaut. Had I popped butcher's feat, there would have been no Avatar left standing. The game turned in his favor slightly at that point. I lost my Juggernaut to a beefy set of Avatar hits. Drakhun died and the Kodiak held on for dear life. Bastions came around my right flank, I turned my MoW ST to brace for impact. The accepted the charge decently, losing 1 guy with minimal damage to the other two. The MoW ST retaliated with some good damage and then...

...The Greylords magic sprayed.

All-told, they did something like 30 or so damage with 3 sprays. Bastions shared the damage so as not to lose any models. I then dropped the 2 luckiest mortars I have ever fired in my life DEAD on, killing the remaining 3 Bastions that were left. With that done, my opponent smashed up the Kodiak, but opened a charge lane for Butcher. Butcher camped focus, got in and with 2 hits felled the might eKreoss.

It was a tough game. My opponent had a great gameplan, he just couldn't adjust to my deployment. I had all day to turtle up behind woods, using them to my advantage. The early damage from the Widowmakers was never adjusted for and it was a downhill slide after that. Still a great game though.

Anyways, that's how I took this list and beat the Menoth list posted.