Seraph Impressions

[blitzmonkey]

I think +1 Fury would be a good. It is a heavy now and and the extra fury to boost damage would help make up for the loss of 2-7 shots down to 1-6.

The loss of shots isn't the problem. At all. However, I can see where you are coming from to a point from the loss of POW from the original attack.

[Necra-Chi]

I keep trying seraphspam in games and keep trying to find something wrong with the seraphs. But my only complaint is that at the point value you can't fit a lot of stuff in. That's all. Give them a Vayl or E-Thag that can buff their output and do a hit and run feat and they get silly.

After the first few beasts they actually cost 9 or 10 points because you have to take shepherd or forsaken to manage fury.

But if you roll a few shots its bloody dangerous.

Remember there is no more screening. This means two things. Everyone gets crack shot, and if you get on a hill seraphs can shoot ANYTHING in range.

The loss of slams really annoys me, but slipstream is arguably even more powerful in Mk2 because threat ranges went down across the board. I've also found that the ability to move over obstacles has actually been really useful.

The jury is still out. I think you can only spam these things because taking one and having it roll one shot is really really bad.

I killed ARM 20 Reznik tonight with incite and 3 seraphs and a total of 7 shots.

[katadder]

rapid fire would be much better. the dire troll blitzer is 1pt more and so much better its unreal. more range, more powerful attacks, yes its less attacks overall but they dont have to hit targets within 2". its also got more close combat attacks that are more powerful, can use its ranged weapon when in combat, has more damage, can regenerate and eat stuff etc etc.

also as an aside why is the seraph MAT6 whilst the carnie stays MAT5. would prefer the MAT/RAT of seraph to be swapped and the carnie to get MAT6.

[guchi]

Like I said in the strafe thread, my inital feeling is the Seraph would be more interesting with:

Lose Strafe
Gain ROF 3 and Fury 4
Possibly pow 13-14?

Less like a overcosted sentinel, more like a Levithan

[Allan255]

In MKI Seraph was mainly a "range attack beast"
Now it's an heavy warbeast with decent range attack and medium melee attack.
But ALL our over Heavy Warbeast already pay the price for being able to do melee and range.
How about lowering Carnivean and Seraph cost and make one melee only oriented and the over range only ?

[katadder]

hardly a decent range attack. good for taking down infantry in theory but due to the new infantry formations you will be luck to hit more than 1 guy.

[Defenstrator]

I killed ARM 20 Reznik tonight with incite and 3 seraphs and a total of 7 shots.
I think the Seraph and Carnivean both have they stats the do because of Incite and Manifest Destiny, Try it with someone like Thagrosh or Absylonia and tell me if you still think its worth it. Plus, killling a warcaster with 24 points worth of models isn't that impressive. There are lots of heavies that would have killed him with just 8 or 9 points worth of model. One Defender under Temporal Acceleration for example.

[OldOneEye]

I think you (nobody in specific; the general "you") are overestimating the threat of infantry units spreading out now in relation to Strafe and AOE attacks. Yes, units CAN spread out quite a bit thanks to the CMD bubble. Many units will still NEED to stay together, though, either to gain benefits (Defensive Line, Shield Wall) or to be able to be effective as a unit (when the edges of a unit are 16" apart, for example, you've got to do some work to get everyone involved). Experience has shown me that most standard infantry units are still going to be bunched up enough to make Strafe effective.

[alchahest]

I disagree with that - Assault is a huge part of the carnivean. and for the angelius, it gives you something to do (at a fantastic range, mind) if you're just out of charging range. also benefits from feats that, say, let you fire twice. at four extra inches.

come to think of it, that's an unexpected and nice side affect of elyl - angels can be a one-turn gun battery. 16" range, two shots, enough fury to boost attack and damage rolls for both. it's not going to come up often, but it's just another tool in the toolbox, you know?

[The Nightwalker]

Here's an issue I feel may be relevant to our dear seraph. To all of our warbeasts in fact. The argument has come up a few times that "X warbeast is a little lackluster BUT not if you take it with Vayl or Ethag." Yes, PP has given both of those warlocks pretty excellent beast buffing abilities, but I'm not sure that justifies making the beast only so-so for every other caster. What might need to be tweaked are not seraphs but Manifest Destiny (I abhor this new name by the way) and Incite. Tone them down a bit so that our beasts can ALL be effective, not situationally so. Isn't that what this update was supposed to sort of do? Rebalance and actually BALANCE the system? So for example, Manifest destiny is choose one, boosted attack or damage, when you activate the beast. Incite becomes just +1 or the same vein of +2 but choose one attack or damage during beasts activation. The problem I guess is that I feel like PP is constraining our beasts excessively to make up for the awesomeness of our warlocks. I don't really mind the awesomeness but I kinda feel like PP could share the love a bit more evenly.

[Aedric]

New Seraph
8 Points
Spd 6 Str 10 Mat 5 Rat 6 Def 14 Arm 16 Cmd 7 Fur 4 Thr 8

Eyeless Sight
Blood Creation
Flight
Serpentine
Soulless

Blight Strike (Head) Rng: 12 Rof 3 Pow 13

Stinger Pow 3 P+S 13
Poison

I'd be happy with that.

[blitzmonkey]

New Seraph
8 Points
Spd 6 Str 10 Mat 5 Rat 6 Def 14 Arm 16 Cmd 7 Fur 4 Thr 8

Eyeless Sight
Blood Creation
Flight
Serpentine
Soulless

Blight Strike (Head) Rng: 12 Rof 3 Pow 13

Stinger Pow 3 P+S 13
Poison

I'd be happy with that.

Hitpoints the same as well? And I would be happy with that as well.

[Rave0183]

Ok...im really getting tired of hearing about this nerfed strafe...yes...it got dropped down to 2"...on the other hand...you dont need to hit the target before you find out how many strafe attacks you get...It's no longer dependant on that initial attack hitting. You declare a strafe...roll a d6...now you have that many initial attacks to pop out. You can manage the fury better this way. Honestly I dont thing they got dramatically hit. Plus with all the seraph spam that happened in the competitive scene...did you truly not expect this thing to change a little?

[Aedric]

A little? Its 8 points. The angelious is 1 more point and has a better gun in alot of ways. Its too unreliable.

Its better in almost every other way. If they made it 6 points this conversation wouldn't even happening.

For the point cost this beast is not worth it in my opinion. Giving it a better melee weapon does nothing for me.

Though some people may like it and all the power to them. It'll be sitting on my shelf collecting dust if it stays as is (Which I really doubt).

[alchahest]

8 points almost seems a reaction to the seraph's status as a must-have in MK I, rather than a reflection of it's abilities in MK II.

it's important to remember that we need to balance things based on /what it does now/ you can't make something worse in multiple ways, and then go and make it expensive, too. The seraph will need to change before field test is over, or it'll be relegated to the same status as MK I's raek and teraph.

[Soulblighter]

Ok...im really getting tired of hearing about this nerfed strafe...yes...it got dropped down to 2"...on the other hand...you dont need to hit the target before you find out how many strafe attacks you get...It's no longer dependant on that initial attack hitting. You declare a strafe...roll a d6...now you have that many initial attacks to pop out. You can manage the fury better this way. Honestly I dont thing they got dramatically hit. Plus with all the seraph spam that happened in the competitive scene...did you truly not expect this thing to change a little?

You may be tired of hearing about it but the fact is strafe was nerfed. Not only did it lose 2" of potential range but the new formation rules make strafe largely useless for its intended purpose (mowing down units). Strafe is also only 1-6 attacks now instead of 2-7. Lastly strafe is a *attack so certain casters can completely shut down strafe with spells like rebuke and icy grip.

I dont think anyone expected the Seraph not to change. But youd be crazy to think its actually worth 8 points the way it is now.

[Necra-Chi]

I'm seeing a lot of sentiment for an idea that I've been thinking about and subject to testing I will probabbly be feeding back that:

Incite and manifest destiny need to be toned down, I don't know how, just do it, and more than making them more expensive.
Then the carnivean, aneglius and seraph should all come down by one point. Maybe an extra fury on teh seraph but that's not as important.

I think seraph at 7, angel at 8 and carnivean at 10 is just about right for all warlocks, as long as they aren't getting buffed all to hell with incite and manifest destiny.

This won't only be good for these warbeasts but also be good for our warlocks, and intrafaction balance.

At the moment, particularly with the changes to many feats to talk about battlegroup, I am finding that we only have two types of warlock, the beast warlocks, some of which don't look very good at it, and the infantry warlocks, who benefit from the greater overall damage per point of infantry but suffer from not having a lot of warbeasts to fuel them. And I haven't found a warlock that looks like she lends herself to a mixed arms approach yet.

So toning down the heinous warbeast warlocks, and reducing the cost of those three heavies in parallel, will help us make more balanced mixed lists.

BTW people strafe was never menat to be for mowing down units, its for encouraging teh enmey to spread out, so you can exploit the gaps, and for drilling a single target into teh ground, and for sniping models hiding behind other models.

Don't talk about seraph balance if you haven't got a clue what its job is.

The angel is a better infantry clearer than the seraph.

[Defenstrator]

Incite and manifest destiny need to be toned down,
Do they? Not to put too fine a point on it but Menoth is giving Incite to all their solid jacks and Vlad is giving Manifest Destiny to his entire army. What's so special about our stuff that they don't deserve the same buffs that other armies get?

[Necra-Chi]

I thought I explained that. It's skewing the costs of our warbeasts and creating a divide between our beast warlocks and infantry warlocks. Only the beast warlocks can make the three heavies worth their massive point cost, so the others have to suffer.

I wasn't saying manifest destiny and incite are unfair for their cost, I'm saying that they are creating intra-faction inbalance. they're also making it damned hard to find a way to balance shredderspam.

the thing that is so special about our warbeasts in relation to S+P like effects is VOLUME of attacks. We have the fury mechanic, and beasts that generate craploads of attacks.

[katadder]

better tone down all of khador then in case they get used with Vlad. same effect but not restricted to battlegroup

[Necra-Chi]

Doesn't he pay more? And with focus, not fury?

Khador is very different. Lots or warcasters in khador improve damage output and it is often redundant too. We can't compare our warlocks with their warcasters.

[ShockwaveIIC]

I would have to disagree, if the problem is truly with Incite and MD then Privateer have truly missed the ball.

The only thing I can see it being reliable for (Excluding the Randomness of Strafe) is blowing holes out of tough medium bases.

Another tick for the Angelius is that it has Crit Fire.

[Necra-Chi]

Well I'm telling from experience thus far, either of those two with the old flying circus, still blow away the opposition likethey used to, they just have slightly less points spare for support. The seraph doesn't feel underpowered for its cost at all with them, it just expensive so you can't fit as much stuff in. With others its mediocre AND expensive. The same applies to angel and carnivean except that other warlocks do have single model upkeeps that can make one carnivean better. That's where I see the problem.

[blitzmonkey]

What will the beast casters get then in return? E-Thag for instance. Unnatural Aggression is ok at best. They have to move to nearest enemy model. This has already been exploited a ton by opponents who just run something up near to it so it has to advance to it then gets engaged and Im stuck with killing something it isnt meant to instead of attacking what it is suposed to. It isn't a buff as I see it. Dragon Blood works on beasts, but I feel is better suited for swordsmen, mongers, or legionaries. So then that leaves MD, Scourge, and Flesh Eater. FE isn't bad, but if I am in range to use that, I have the urge to use scourge instead. Scourge isn't bad, but at AOE 3, I am not hitting much. It is nice to take down stuff like champions or ceratti. MD is the go to spell for beasts buffs. IF they compensate and still make it buff, that would be fine. I do think that comparing Vlad and EThags is a bit wonky, but the fact that he still has it and we are suggesting Thags losses it is a bit worrisome for me.

So what I think should happen IF they are going to nerf it: Turn it into a feat instead of a spell. Dragon Storm would make a good 4 point spell. Manifest Destiny would be a better feat. Dragon Storm as a spell would give us move options to move and attack without boosting. With our abysmal mats and rats, it shouldnt be bad. Itll bring more use out of scourge. So that will be all of our fury. Risky, but fun.

Then on feat turn, we get 1 round of BOOOOOM!

[Necra-Chi]

I'm not suggesting they lose their signature spell, I'm suggesting make it so its less of a no brainer, even making it weaker but affect non warbeasts too, would be very good, but also encourage mixed armies. Maybe one of them remains the warbeast warlock and their spell only affects beasts, but I'm pretty sure (subject to more testing of course) that Carnivean, Seraph and Angel are paying an approximate 1 point tax for Manifest Destiny and Incite, and its making shredderspam more complicated to balance.

[blitzmonkey]

I would be happy with Incite being just a straight up +2 to hit instead of being +2 to both hit and dmg.

As for Manifest Destiny, it hasn't been as much of a no brainer to me than you might imply. I think upping the cost to 4 would be nice considering he is only a 7 fury caster. With him being a large base, it makes those last 3 fury very precious. I know you said simply upping the price is out, but I disagree as of right now.

[Mezzanine]

My personal opinion on what should change with the Seraph:

Blight Strike ROF 2. The doomsday scenario for a Seraph is when it rolls a one on Strafe. By making the standard gun ROF 2, you can spend a precious Fury to buy another attack to help avoid a mostly wasted turn for your Seraph. It also gives it some options against Rebukes.

-1 STR. When it comes to dealing with heavies, it either needs to step up or get out of the way. I say it should just get out of the way and save that role for the other heavy beasts so that it'll give people initiative to take other beasts and not spam.

-1 Point Cost. We shouldn't be paying a ridiculous cost for our ranged beast in the faction whose strength is ranged attack and warbeast synergies. Mk2 Seraphs seem just as silly as Mk1 Doom Reavers. At its current point cost, its really hard to justify in many lists when the Angelius is just 1 point more and far more reliable.

What it shouldn't get: +1 Fury. All that will do is encourage spam lists while making the single Seraph seem even more bipolar.

[Necra-Chi]

How does more fury encourage spam?

[W0lf]

Guys im 100% with Necra on this one.

You cant balance a warbeast so its good with any caster but not a lil OTT with eThags/vayl.

I think the change is simpler though,

Drop all 3 of our heavys by 1 pt. Give Vayl and eThags -2 beast points. OR make incite +1/+1 and upkeep and mainfest 4 fury spell.

Job done.


Ofc i cant ever see this happening.

[Mezzanine]

How does more fury encourage spam?

Its another boost that you can save for your Seraphs that roll high on their Strafe attack. Or if you dont really care about the next turn, its another boost on each Seraph which should lead to more impressive results while doing nothing but make you look silly if you just roll a 1 on your Strafe attacks and have nothing to spend the other 2 Fury on.

[Necra-Chi]

I really like Wolf's suggestions, either way.

[blitzmonkey]

Footclan, is spamming more than 1 or 2 for you?

[W0lf]

I really like Wolf's suggestions, either way.

Thanks.

Im not sure which one i prefer. probs the beast points as it keeps the spell feeling powerful, nerfs smaller point shredder spam+eThags (10+him at 15pts)

[Mezzanine]

3+ is spamming, imo.

Maybe EThagrosh should just have Signs and Portents. People should already be taking beasts with him anyways because of his feat and that gives him some troop support while upping the cost so that its riskier to cast it. Not sure about Incite.

[blitzmonkey]

Thanks.

Im not sure which one i prefer. probs the beast points as it keeps the spell feeling powerful, nerfs smaller point shredder spam+eThags (10+him at 15pts)

I misread your suggestion at first. Yeah, a drop in beast points for both would be my preference as well.

[W0lf]

Its an easy way to buff the beasts with everyone outside eThags+Vayl who frankly dont need it.

[oninofro]

Let's not focus on what it lost. Focus on what it has. Would you pay 8 points for a heavy that can only headbutt and only has 3 fury? Probably not, unless it could do something really amazing in return.

And the really amazing thing the Seraph can do is.....

And that's why I don't think it's worth 8 points.

"And the really amazing thing the Seraph can do is..."
... cost 8 points. That's that it does REALLY well. So well, in fact, that it doesn't do much else because that 8 is so overwhelming.

[Styvis]

How about lowering Incite to +2 att and +1 dmg rolls?

[Mezzanine]

They could always just remove Incite and give Vayl Temporal Barrier.

I kid, i kid.

Seriously, though, nerfing Incite to anything worse than what it was in mk1 would make Vayl look really weak in comparison to our other warlocks.

[Soulblighter]

Incite/Manifest Destiny could also be changed to buff only melee attack/damage rolls. Then thered be no excuse for the Seraph costing 8 points and its point cost can drop down to 6 points (or 7 points if it gets +1 FURY). I mean the Seraph is the real issue here. The Carnivean would be perfectly fine at 10 points even with Incite and Manifest Destiny the way they are now.

[Necra-Chi]

That's a great idea for lowering the scariness of seraphs and typhon and carnivean's sprays, to justify their costs going down, but it doesn't help the shredderspam problem.

[Soulblighter]

well the general consensus seems to be that shredderspam doesnt work. if thats true then is it really a concern that needs to be addressed?

[Necra-Chi]

That is in no way the consensus yet. Where did you get that idea?

[Soulblighter]

In other threads discussing the point cost of the shredder. I suggested that shredders be buffed a little and recosted to 3 points. But everyone else seemed opposed to that idea because they felt 20+ shredders in a list was perfectly acceptable.

[blitzmonkey]

well the general consensus seems to be that shredderspam doesnt work. if thats true then is it really a concern that needs to be addressed?


Just because a number of people say it isn't viable doesn't make it that way. Personally, it seems like it won't work, but the test has only been out two days. It is a bit TOO early to say if it works or not.

[Sabin]

Well, its certainly is different now, thats for sure.

Will this proposed change drastically affect how you use them? As in, not bringing more than a single seraph, or forgoing it all together for an angelius instead?

I like the new take on it, being a heavy beast and all, it just seems to be lacking something though I'm not sure what, it's too expensive for what it does.

[Defenstrator]

I'm still confused as to why poeple think some buffs on the Seraph and Carnivean are going to make them OP.

The consensus so far is that the other beasts are generally ok. The Teraph is kind of weak, the Raek is also weak but it's only 4 points, and I haven't seen any or made any complaints about the rest except that the Angelius still has a crap animus.

The Seraph is too expensive for what you get. How does making it a point or two cheaper make it OP? The Carnivean needs +1 MAT and RAT. Again, how does this make an 11 point beast OP? If he's not supposed to kick *** then make him less points. Because I really don't see the difference between the Carnivean coming in to savage me under Incite than the Avatar coming in to savage me under Infuse. Especially since we don't have a 2 point solo that can buy the Carnivean extra attacks or have him hop out of combat if he gets hit by something.

[Mobile]

The seraph is all over the place. I still dig it, but 8 points does feel steep for what it's done for me in game so far.
It's softer than any heavy, even ranged ones, but harder to hit than most. That is negated against most jacks.
It's faster than most heavies with guns, but its range is shorter and its less accurate.
It's got a solid mat, but its melee weapon is weaker than any other combo ranged/melee heavy that i recall.
Despite being able to generate alot of attacks, the low pow, for a heavy mind you, on its ranged weapon means the only models it threatens are either higher def than it can hit, or have arm 18, significantly limiting damage.

And, best of all, it pays a premium for having eyeless sight and wings, but the mobility is only so useful, and the eyeless sight is useless against targets charging across the open, making it sort of a confusing 'boost' to accuracy...

+1 rat, +1 fury, d3+3 strafe and I'm on board for 8 points. as it stands, I want it for 6-7.

[Necra-Chi]

Maybe if we had a way to fill the board with forests it would make more sense. :D

I think its funny that circle now has ways to fill the board with forest AND give phantom seeker to stuff.

[Lazlo]

Maybe if we had a way to fill the board with forests it would make more sense. :D

I think its funny that circle now has ways to fill the board with forest AND give phantom seeker to stuff.

Yeah, I offered to trade my Legion to a friend for his Circle, but he wasn't having any of it, so I guess I need to stick it out. The Warpwolves (both) are amazing beasts now, and there's mention of a Warpwolf Warrior in the book, which sounds interesting.

[Neutralyze]

both are fine how they are. you guys say we cant compare apples to oranges but indeed we can.

we pay for those beasts to use and also have lower beasts points from out warlocks due to it. we have the biggest drop in threshold across teh board as well.

if we are spamming seraphs we dont have a lot of support as already stated while other armies could.

get it out of your mind that it needs to be toned down. i just dont see it.

[blitzmonkey]

Edit: Nevermind

[Necra-Chi]

Neutralyse my argument is that we are paying too much for those beasts because those spells are too good.

[Neutralyze]

those two are costed down in beasts points for that reason. i do not believe that they are overcosted just because of a combination with only 2 warlocks out of 7.

legion warbeasts other than lessers have typically been on the expensive end even in the MK1 environment. so it translate into this format. 80 pts for a seraph is 8 mk2 pts or what not.

they did this for our feedback. i am sure its not going to stay this way. it will either get a small buf or go down in pts but Vayl will not have icnite changed.

[Defenstrator]

Neutralyse my argument is that we are paying too much for those beasts because those spells are too good.
And my argument is that those spells aren't too good because their equivalents exist in other factions, not to mention that both those casters are expensive at 3 and 4 beast points respectively. Cygnar doesn't even have a caster more expensive than 5 points. I really think that the Seraph is just over costed and the C-Rex needs his MAT and RAT boost. Then they'll kick *** with the beast locks like they're supposed to and be decent with the rest of the warlocks.

[Necra-Chi]

No that isn't right.

The seraph was in the same price range as lights that are now 6 points or less. Its a heavy now with more ARM and hit points and so MAYBE its worth 7.

The carnivean and angel were in the same price range as heavies that now cost 8/9.

All I can advise is actually play some beast heavy games with Vayl and E-Thags and then reconsider what I've been saying. Its an eye opener. When I'm playing that I'm constantly thinking to myself "but the seraph costs too much, why am I kicking so much arse?"

My position (subject to much more testing) is that if you give those beasts a cost reduction or a buff without toning down MD and Incite (or giving those guys even less warbeast points), then those warcasters will be too good compared with our other warlocks. If you leave it as is, those beasts are just too expensive for most of our other warlocks, for what they do.

[DevonV]

The problem I guess is that I feel like PP is constraining our beasts excessively to make up for the awesomeness of our warlocks. I don't really mind the awesomeness but I kinda feel like PP could share the love a bit more evenly.

This may be a reflection of fluff = rules. The warlocks are the brains of the operation, and the beasts are just blighted meat without them. I do agree that some tweaking is needed to find a good balance here.



legion warbeasts other than lessers have typically been on the expensive end even in the MK1 environment. so it translate into this format. 80 pts for a seraph is 8 mk2 pts or what not.

But my 110 point Mule is 8 MK II points. The Nomad cost close to the Seraph in MK I, and it's 6 points now. The Seraph, like Bonejacks, got more expensive in the transition.

[SteakAndSpirits]

+1 rat, +1 fury, d3+3 strafe and I'm on board for 8 points. as it stands, I want it for 6-7.

That's about where I'm sitting -- As it stands right now, I'm still so love-struck with the new Raek that passing up a brace of them by sinking 8 points into a Seraph almost feels like sacrilege.

I could probably find a place for it in a list at 6 points. At seven points I'd start sizing up the cost to just upgrade to a full unit of Raptors which seem to be competing for that similar hybrid range/melee role.

And as mentioned earlier, it'll probably be few and far between when a Seraph as is isn't just bumped into an Angelius.

-s&s

[Killionaire]

The Seraph is fine at 7/8 points. It suffers all the problems of strafe, yes. But it's other features (POW12, Eyeless Sight, Flight) make it extremely capable of doing a lot of damage. Especially against a Warcaster/Lock or Shield Wall unit, where a hail of POW12s kill. Slipstream is still a fantastic animus that should be used practically every turn, being a measly 1 focus for a lot of threat amplification.

The only problem with it really is Strafe's unreliability. 1-6 is just not acceptable. d3+3 strafe would be damned good. It's doubtful that this will change however, since the Sentinel, TCC and Cyclone are both in print.

[ArchonXVI]

The problem is that two of your casters make Seraphs ~RAT 7 POW 14, with 1d6 attacks. There isn't anything else in the game putting out that much firepower.

Let's be honest; assuming an average of only 3 attacks each, they can break anything below 19-20 armor. And that is at a reasonable range with an excellent threat. The fact that you very nearly can't stop it doesn't help.

Of course, with the other casters it isn't so good. Perhaps making incite cmd range, or only effect melee attacks? Not entirely sure what to do w/ eThagrosh, other than the same options as above.

[Soulblighter]

The problem is that two of your casters make Seraphs ~RAT 7 POW 14, with 1d6 attacks. There isn't anything else in the game putting out that much firepower.

Obviously youve never seen a Leviathan with eSkarre. In actuality there are quite a few models/units/spellcombos in the game that put out that kind of firepower.

The problem is that Strafe/Incite/Manifest Destiny becomes exponentially more powerful when you have multiple Seraphs. So to prevent us from fielding multiple Seraphs they made their cost extremely prohibitive. Which is fine but they also need to make the Seraph fully worth 8 points. Or they need to change Incite/Manifest Destiny to affect melee only so the cost of the Seraph can be lowered. Either solution would be acceptable and make the Seraph worth using I think.

[Sevwall]

I say reach and +1 Fury. That would make it more of a threat in melee, especially agaisnt casters.

[ArchonXVI]

Obviously youve never seen a Leviathan with eSkarre. In actuality there are quite a few models/units/spellcombos in the game that put out that kind of firepower.

As much as I hate to say it, not even close.

Leviathan: rat 5, pow 15 (on a good day.) Can get 3 focus.
Seraph: rat 7, pow 14. Can be forced three times.

Leviathan can fire twice with boosted damage.
Seraph will fire on average three times, and can boost damage on each.

Taking into account the increased RAT, the seraph should be putting out more than 50% more damage. That is a very, very significant value. (It should be noted that this is a comparison only of ranged firepower)



The problem is that Strafe/Incite/Manifest Destiny becomes exponentially more powerful when you have multiple Seraphs. So to prevent us from fielding multiple Seraphs they made their cost extremely prohibitive. Which is fine but they also need to make the Seraph fully worth 8 points. Or they need to change Incite/Manifest Destiny to affect melee only so the cost of the Seraph can be lowered. Either solution would be acceptable and make the Seraph worth using I think.
Exactly.

[blitzmonkey]

As much as I hate to say it, not even close.

Leviathan: rat 5, pow 15 (on a good day.) Can get 3 focus.
Seraph: rat 7, pow 14. Can be forced three times.

Leviathan can fire twice with boosted damage.
Seraph will fire on average three times, and can boost damage on each.

Taking into account the increased RAT, the seraph should be putting out more than 50% more damage. That is a very, very significant value. (It should be noted that this is a comparison only of ranged firepower)


Exactly.

Strafe is random. Levi's ranged attacks are not. You can CHOOSE how many up to 3 u want. Seraph cannot.

[Soulblighter]

As much as I hate to say it, not even close.

Leviathan: rat 5, pow 15 (on a good day.) Can get 3 focus.
Seraph: rat 7, pow 14. Can be forced three times.

Leviathan can fire twice with boosted damage.
Seraph will fire on average three times, and can boost damage on each.

Taking into account the increased RAT, the seraph should be putting out more than 50% more damage. That is a very, very significant value. (It should be noted that this is a comparison only of ranged firepower)


Black Spot. Target unit gets -2 DEF and when you kill a model you get an additional ranged attack. Leviathan can put out upto six attacks at effective RAT7 POW13. Since eSkarre gets to see the attack rolls before deciding whether or not to boost RAT7 isnt so bad.

Theres also Longunners/Invictors/etc... that put out comparable firepower through various combinations of CRA. The Seraph is hardly the only ranged model/unit that gets that kind of damage output. Thats just a failed exaggeration of its capabilities.

[chrsjxn]

As much as I hate to say it, not even close.

Leviathan: rat 5, pow 15 (on a good day.) Can get 3 focus.
Seraph: rat 7, pow 14. Can be forced three times.

Leviathan can fire twice with boosted damage.
Seraph will fire on average three times, and can boost damage on each.

Taking into account the increased RAT, the seraph should be putting out more than 50% more damage. That is a very, very significant value. (It should be noted that this is a comparison only of ranged firepower)

You're ignoring both Seas of Fate and Black Spot.

I also think "exponentially" is overdoing it a lot on the powerup you gain from adding an extra Seraph.

If it's okay for me to pay 8 for the potential six Rat 7 Pow 14 shots, why is it not okay to pay 16 for up to 12?

Especially as the biggest benefit of running multiple Seraphs is that the number of shots you get in total is more likely to be average, and less likely to be toward either extreme.

Which is good, because you're less likely to get 2 shots from a pair than you are to get 1 shot from a single Seraph.

And which is bad, because the elusive 12 shots from a pair is much less likely than getting 6 shots from a single Seraph.

[W0lf]

My position (subject to much more testing) is that if you give those beasts a cost reduction or a buff without toning down MD and Incite (or giving those guys even less warbeast points), then those warcasters will be too good compared with our other warlocks. If you leave it as is, those beasts are just too expensive for most of our other warlocks, for what they do.


Signed.

Oh and their cut in beast points inst enough, EThags was already more expnensive then other locks in MK1. Simply put seraph with Vayl is worth 8 pts. Seraph with Rhyas is not.

Now if we change the seraph then we need to make sure its good with rhyas but not too good with Vayl. Easiest fix is to change Vayl.

Because RAT 7, POW14's is amazing and worth 8 pts.

[Necra-Chi]

I have to say it is amazing how much of difference it makes when you've actually played a number of games when reading these boards. You can see the people that haven't tested what they're talking about.

I just read someone saying that spamming seraphs is dead because of the high points cost of seraphs. Ha!

[DevonV]

Seraph will fire on average three times, and can boost damage on each.


Just wanted to point out that the Seraph rolls d6, thus it has no average number of shots. It is completely random.

[Neutralyze]

they are good with beasts? even in the MK1 they both were. now they translate over and you want them toned down because you think they are the reason for higher pt cost? thats outrageous.

the 2 games i played with her were the creation of my old 500 pt list

35 pts

vayl
angel
seraphx3
shredder
forsakenx2

it did work wonder and was just like it use to be just without having to be within 8" and having the needed threat range of leash.

top of turn two much like you i was able to kill the opponent because he thought he was safe.

we do still pay for what we have but just because they are good with 2 warlocks doesnt mean all warbeasts are overcosted because of it.

[Rave0183]

Oh i dunno. A seraph laying in a potential 6 pow 15 attacks with lylyth and parasite..or 14's with vayl doesnt seem OP for 8pts AT ALL! I know comparing things to warmachine jacks isnt fair. But just put into perspective to get even 3 pow 15's against a heavy target...I have to pay 11pts for a jack that doesnt move as fast, does not ignore LoS, has the same rat, and if i'm boosting i'm not getting all3 of my shots. Yes...I have heavier armor...but trade that for dmg output... Seraph is fine...learn to use it differently...that's what Mk2 change is all about.

[SteakAndSpirits]

If generating 6 attacks is what's holding the Seraph back, then let's lose it's ability to generate 6 attacks. I'd be much closer to paying 6 points for a D3 Strafe Seraph, than 8 for a d6.

D3 + 1 on the 8 point build would probably be easier to swallow as well.

-s&s

[damnbobert]

I've seen a few people talking about Seraphs and strafe, saying things along the lines of "the old way, if you boosted, your first shot hit and you got your extra attacks."

As someone who has had 2 boosted Seraphs fail to hit DEF 13 models I take exception to assumptions like these. Dice are fickle things.

I like that your d6 no longer depends on one shot hitting.

[blitzmonkey]

Oh i dunno. A seraph laying in a potential 6 pow 15 attacks with lylyth and parasite..or 14's with vayl doesnt seem OP for 8pts AT ALL!

You have JUST as much of a chance to get one attack as you do 6.

[ShockwaveIIC]

Oh i dunno. A seraph laying in a potential 6 pow 15 attacks with lylyth and parasite..or 14's with vayl doesnt seem OP for 8pts AT ALL! But four Bane Thralls + Parasite on the charge totalling a Khador Jack (not a Berserker) is okay?

If, IF, your point is true, then mine is in major need of addressing.

[ArchonXVI]

Strafe is random. Levi's ranged attacks are not. You can CHOOSE how many up to 3 u want. Seraph cannot.
You also have to pay for it. Strafe is free.


Black Spot. Target unit gets -2 DEF and when you kill a model you get an additional ranged attack. Leviathan can put out upto six attacks at effective RAT7 POW13. Since eSkarre gets to see the attack rolls before deciding whether or not to boost RAT7 isnt so bad.

Theres also Longunners/Invictors/etc... that put out comparable firepower through various combinations of CRA. The Seraph is hardly the only ranged model/unit that gets that kind of damage output. Thats just a failed exaggeration of its capabilities.
Sure, but there are much better ways of dealing with infantry; we're talking more about the ability to lay down a significant amount of fire on a single target.

And with the exception of double-tapping longgunners, they don't put out near the same amount of damage. 1 pow 20 doesn't do even close to the damage of 3 boosted 14s, at any armor level.

You're ignoring both Seas of Fate and Black Spot.

I also think "exponentially" is overdoing it a lot on the powerup you gain from adding an extra Seraph.

If it's okay for me to pay 8 for the potential six Rat 7 Pow 14 shots, why is it not okay to pay 16 for up to 12?

Because those attacks /must/ each be on a different target with a medium base. Against that very, very specific army, the Levi is superior, I do agree. Again though, we're talking about damage on a single target. Infantry clearing is better done by other models.



Especially as the biggest benefit of running multiple Seraphs is that the number of shots you get in total is more likely to be average, and less likely to be toward either extreme.

Which is good, because you're less likely to get 2 shots from a pair than you are to get 1 shot from a single Seraph.

And which is bad, because the elusive 12 shots from a pair is much less likely than getting 6 shots from a single Seraph.The biggest benefit of multiple Seraphs is that you get twice as many shots, on average. And I'm not talking about rolling the max; I only speak of the averages.



Just wanted to point out that the Seraph rolls d6, thus it has no average number of shots. It is completely random.
That is insane. The average is 3.5 shots/strafe. This can not be debated.


But four Bane Thralls + Parasite on the charge totalling a Khador Jack (not a Berserker) is okay?

If, IF, your point is true, then mine is in major need of addressing.
Yup! There's a bit of a difference between getting charged by for models with an 8.5" threat and getting shot at from 10" away by a beast with SPD 6. Of course, that doesn't even mention the fact that parasite was required, which is an offensive debuff; slightly harder to use than incite.

And that doesn't even go over the comparative cost of incite fury cost and parasite focus cost.

[kakita]

i think that's why forumites have been suggesting multiple seraphs; to rolls more dice and normalize the number of shots to abt 3.5 shots per seraph.

Would changing the Seraph to ROF 3 FUR 3 be huge? He's now guaranteed 2 boosted attack/damage roles which is a lot more dependable than strafe D6.

[Arkady]

There is only one thing certain... Strafe sucks, as demonstrated quite thoroughly by the Cygnar forums. The random number of shots, the tight leash on spreading the shots around, the low RAT all being aside, a range 10" attack leaves you wide open to counter charges. The new Seraph is much more a close combat beast than a ranged one, but its performance in that role is limited by A) ridiculow fury stat, and B) the angelius is better at that role for only 1 point more.

[Talking Head]

The 'problem' with the Seraph in MK I was that it could put all of its strafe shots into a single target, and that it wasn't overly expensive and that meant you could take many Seraph and all have them focus fire on a target. Then you had Warlocks that provide buffs on an unlimited number of attacks in a turn.

It seems their fix to the 'focus fire' problem (and it WAS a problem), was to simply bump their points up so they cost too many points to spam.

Personally, I would have rather seen them break the 'focus fire' problem by forcing the Seraphs to spread out their spots, or more realistically, make their ranged attack a spray attack. Having several Seraph fly up and unleash a bunch of sprays would be nasty, but it would have been another kind of nasty that was spread across your army instead of putting an unreasonably amount of firepower onto a single target.

[Necra-Chi]

I played 3 games today with seraphs and Saeryn and E-lylyth. They can indirectly increase the ability to hit of the seraph, biut not the damage, and it showed. In the Lylyth game it was really nice to have a stealthed army of seraphs, but putting my whole army into not even destroying one vanquisher and a revnger really showed the damage gap between seraphs and vanquishers. The seraphs are more capable in melee now. In the saeryn games I had a way to extract them from combat and slipstream played a major role in one of my wins.

But I also had first hand experience of how crap they can be too. In one turn I had two seraphs with 1 fury on them each, they both frenzied, ruining my turn.

SO MANY times i rolled a 1 for strafe and then still had to boost to hit so that I didn't totally waste the seraph's turn.

Frustrating.

There's a lot of potential with saeryn making them melee assassins alongside the angels with her feat. With their melee they hit harder, have better MAT than RAT, and you can always get more than one attack if you need it.

[Arkady]

SO MANY times i rolled a 1 for strafe and then still had to boost to hit so that I didn't totally waste the seraph's turn.

Frustrating.

There's a lot of potential with saeryn making them melee assassins alongside the angels with her feat. With their melee they hit harder, have better MAT than RAT, and you can always get more than one attack if you need it.
Right, but if you're going to use it as a close combat beast, why not just bring an Angelius for 1 extra point. If the ranged attack is merely a back-up, the Flame Jet is not much worse (and hey, critical fire and +2" range is nice :P).

[Necra-Chi]

For slipstream and because I already had two angels and am not buying more just because I can have more now. 2 is enough. There's typically always a turn that you can shoot before you can charge too. Might as well use it.

[SteakAndSpirits]

All this talk about Seraphs is really beginning to convince me that Typhon and two Angels is the ideal load-out for just about everyone. There's five ranged attacks between them, two heavy-wrecking armor-piercers, and then three P+S: 17 bites.

Seraphs were great when they operated like slamming, mobile gunships.

They're a thing of the past, now. There's nothing a Seraph can do that another combination of beasts isn't optimized for.

-s&s

[Aedric]

For the field test maybe but I can't see the seraph not changing at least a bit.

Otherwise it'll be collecting too much dust.

[seraphsong]

I think the solution to the Seraph problem is ROF (3). POW - 10.

Strafe as a star action that ends your activation after. That way we can take the option for up to three shots, or strafe if we're feeling lucky.

Just my two cents. I don't think there are nearly enough ranged beasts in Hordes with ROF higher than 1. i think it would help the teraph as well....

[SteakAndSpirits]

My alternate faction has an excellent little Hybrid Heavy weighing in at 8 points: The Manticore - Range 12, ROF: 3. It wrecks house. Maybe Legion could go into open negotiations w/ the Iossans, apologize for past transgressions, and stencil 'S.E.R.A.P.H.' on the side of those bad-boys? :)

-s&s

[ArchonXVI]

i think that's why forumites have been suggesting multiple seraphs; to rolls more dice and normalize the number of shots to abt 3.5 shots per seraph.

Would changing the Seraph to ROF 3 FUR 3 be huge? He's now guaranteed 2 boosted attack/damage roles which is a lot more dependable than strafe D6.
Well, that'd give two boosted attacks rather than three. I think a 50% nerf to their damage output would be a very, very significant change.

It'd certainly make them worth only 6/7 points, I'd think.

[coopernicus]

Ok, was going to argue against the whole "reduce something on our beast locks" but then Defenstrator just said THIS
And my argument is that those spells aren't too good because their equivalents exist in other factions, not to mention that both those casters are expensive at 3 and 4 beast points respectively. Cygnar doesn't even have a caster more expensive than 5 points. I really think that the Seraph is just over costed and the C-Rex needs his MAT and RAT boost. Then they'll kick *** with the beast locks like they're supposed to and be decent with the rest of the warlocks.Purely taking into account the game effects, how can we justify nerfing the potential of our "beast spells" against something like Vlad's S&P, or Sevvy's EoM?
YES the spells we have make the beasts really powerful; YES not all beasts work with all locks. What's the problem? I don't want to take lots of beasts with Rhyas, I want to take a Carni +1 other then troops.
Abby notwithstanding (ugh), it's ok for us to have powerful beast-centric casters. Saeryn is still hot stuff and just because there's eThag and Vayl it doesn't make me want to bring her any less.

No, I haven't played any games with them yet (cheers), but as said sometimes they're hot and sometimes they're cold, even with Manifest Destiny or Incite, and that's the way it's always been with strafe.
Seraph in their current incarnation WILL change, of that I have no doubt. This FT is IMO giving us a very toned down Seraph so we can see how far we need to go up from here, which has a better effect on the psychology of the player.

I will not compare the Seraph to it's Mk1 incarnation, that's just wrong. I would like to look at it on it's own though, and just see what we get for those 8 points. Will write after testing.

[Necra-Chi]

The idea that you can't compare it to its old Mk1 self is really starting to annoy me.

YES YOU CAN.

Its not that different, its still flies around the table shooting stuff, but now it just does LESS. No slam, D6 instead of 1+D6, and more expensive so you can fit less of them, or less in the rest of your list. Its all LESS. For relatively more points.

Seriously. I've played it a lot now.

Same beast. Does less. Costs more.

I'm not saying that has to be bad thing. Not at all. But you CAN compare them. They didn't change role.

[otakud00d]

Oh, I see. Gotcha. It says 'the faction model's current location', not 'the Seraph's current location. Bloody hell, a Legion Player did that wrong today.
Heh. It took a vassal game to figure that out too. Friendly Faction model being placed within 2" of friendly faction model was what tricked us.

[Primus]

The idea that you can't compare it to its old Mk1 self is really starting to annoy me.


It's not a matter of you can't compare it to MkI. It's that you shouldn't and expect things to be changed accordingly.

Framing the argument as "The MkII Seraph is now not as good as the MkI Seraph, and here's why", will fall on deaf ears. The argument should be framed as "The MkII Seraph has problems with its new role, and here's why". You and others here have collected lots of great play data on the MkII Seraph. Don't let that go to waste by framing the argument in a way that'll make PP just throw it out.

[oninofro]

Disclaimer: I am insane and/or sleep deprived.

Solution to keep it @ 8 points: +1 Rat, +1 Def OR Arm, +1 Fury... give it Eruption of Ash or Scather on one of its ranged attacks once per turn.
EoA is no longer the trademark of Thags and it would fit that a flying space/time warping beast would spit a blight cloud.

AND/OR
Make Slipstream a 2 fury animus:
Option 1. Friendly faction models (not just one) it passes within 2 inches of are moved two inches. must maintain cohesion. +1 Rat, +1 Def OR Arm, +1 Fury

Option 2. Turn Slipstream into an offensive animus (Roll CMD or THR?). Seraph ends movement within 2 inches of enemy models, place enemy models within that range 2 inches directly away from previous position. +1 Rat, +1 Def OR Arm, +1 Fury

Any of these would make it an 8 point model. My preference being the first.

Yup. I'm insane but I'm trying to justify an 8 point, not slamming, not trampling, fragile heavy with ranged attacks in flux.

And now, because what I suggested is crazy, you may all mock me (in an entertaining fashion) to reduce the stress of Hordes MKII FieldTest potentially leading Hordes MKII being InfantryHordes.

[Lazlo]

Make Slipstream a 2 fury animus:


The wierd thing is, I ALWAYS thought Slipstream was a 2 fury animus. It wasn't until I was reading the Mk II Seraph and went, "What, they reduced the cost of Slipstream?" that I went back to the Mk I rules and realized what a dolt I'd been all this time. Even at 2 fury I used the crap out of it and never thought twice about it.

[ShockwaveIIC]

You also have to pay for it. Strafe is free.
Yup! There's a bit of a difference between getting charged by for models with an 8.5" threat and getting shot at from 10" away by a beast with SPD 6. Of course, that doesn't even mention the fact that parasite was required, which is an offensive debuff; slightly harder to use than incite.

And that doesn't even go over the comparative cost of incite fury cost and parasite focus cost.I'm sorry, for some reason I thought you had mentioned Lylyth and Parasite yourself. My bad.

[Blighted Messiah]

you know, i was pretty sure the sereph would be bumped to heavy in mkii because of the large base and it's similaarities to the angelius. I think our 3rd heavy in our 1st plastic kit will be the hellion.

[Nargacuga]

Instead of comparing the Seraph to its MKI version, compare it to other 8 cost beasts/jacks;

Gnarlhorn Satyr
Rhinodon
Titan Gladiator
Castigator
Reckoner
Vanquisher
Kodiak
Drago
Thorn
Hammersmith
Mangler
Mule
Mariner
Wroghthammer Rockram


I don't know about you, but to me, the Seraph is not nearly good enough to be a member of this club.

[Aedric]

I somehow don't see that happening. The hellion is completely different and they would need to add a figure to each kit on the off chance your using it.

<Shrug>

[IronChefZod]

Here is what I would like assuming no other changes-

Drop Seraph to 7, increase Fury and Threshold by +1
Lower Vayl's warbeast points by 2 points.
Leave eThag alone.

[Neutralyze]

Here is what I would like assuming no other changes-

Drop Seraph to 7, increase Fury and Threshold by +1
Lower Vayl's warbeast points by 2 points.
Leave eThag alone.

drop seraph to 7 and increase threshold by 1

keep vayl the same, she is currently fine

ethags is different than vayl but they are nearly they same. he has an offensive feat and hers is defensive.

vayl does not need a drop in beast points.

[Nargacuga]

My fix:

Drop Points to 7 or make it a 4 Fury Beast
Blight Strike = ROF:2


If you roll real bad on your *Strafe attack, you could buy an additional ranged attack..its a good fix and makes the seraph much less of a coin toss in critical fights.