Blighted Swordsmen Idea

[Warcaster Kirin Folken]

Blighted Nyss Swordsmen
SPD STR MAT RAT DEF ARM CMD
--[6]---[6]----[7]----[4]---[14]--[13]---[8]

Point Cost: Leader & 5 Grunts: 5
Leader & 9 Grunts: 8

LEADER & GRUNTS
Fearless
Parry - This model cannot be targeted by Free Strikes.

WEAPONS [LEADER & GRUNTS]
Nyss Claymore [1x] (None) POW: 4 P+S: 10
Weapon Master
Cleave

Blighted Nyss Swordsman Abbot & Champion

ABBOT
SPD STR MAT RAT DEF ARM CMD
--[6]---[6]----[8]----[4]---[14]--[13]---[9]
CHAMPION
SPD STR MAT RAT DEF ARM CMD
--[6]---[6]----[8]----[4]---[14]--[13]---[8]

Point Cost: 3

Abbot Damage: 5
Champion's Damage: 5

Attachment [Blighted Nyss Swordsmen] - This attachment can be added to a Blighted Nyss Swordsmen unit.

ABBOT
Fearless
Officer
Parry - This model cannot be targeted by Free Strikes

Granted: Magical Weapons - While this model is in play, the melee weapons of models in this unit gain Magical Weapon ICON.

Tactics: Duelist - Models in this unit gain +2 DEF against melee attack rolls.

WEAPONS [ABBOT]
Nyss Claymore [1x] (None) POW: 4 P+S: 10
Weapon Master
Riposte - When this model is missed by an enemy melee attack, immediately after the attack is resolved it can make one normal melee attack against the attacking model.

CHAMPION
Fearless
Parry - This model cannot be targeted by Free Strikes
Defensive Strike - Once per turn, when an enemy model advances into and ends its movement in this model's melee range, this model can immediately make one normal melee attack against it.

WEAPONS [CHAMPION]
Nyss Claymore [2x] (None) POW: 4 P+S: 10
Weapon Master
Combo Strike (��Attack) - Make a melee attack. Instead of making a normal damage roll, the POW of the damage roll is equal to this model's STR plus twice the POW of this weapon.



Thoughts?

[alchahest]

parry makes them ridiculously over the top

[Lazlo]

parry makes them ridiculously over the top

I'm not sure that it does, only because I probably wouldn't use it very often. Chances are, if there's something close enough to cause freestrikes then I just want to hit it with my sword, not run away.

[Warcaster Kirin Folken]

parry makes them ridiculously over the top


So your saying Kayazy assassin are broken in mk 2 then? :D

They have....

Stealth
Backstab
Gang
Parry

With MAT 7, POW 10s, DEF 14 ARM 12

and thier 5/8 just like blighted swordsmen.


I'm not seeing much of a difference here. :p

I argee with Lazlo, 9/10 times your going to just hack what ever is around them. Parry just gives them a option, something they were lacking in FT.

and more to the point adding parry makes them worth thier 5/8 pt cost.

[alchahest]

weapon master is a huge bonus, as is fearless. there's /nothing/ that swordsmen can't charge for 10+4d6, and adding parry makes it so they can charge right by defenders.

[Warcaster Kirin Folken]

weapon master is a huge bonus, as is fearless. there's /nothing/ that swordsmen can't charge for 10+4d6, and adding parry makes it so they can charge right by defenders.


Again.. I point you to Kayazy assassins.

MAT 9 POW 12 +3d6 on charge (4d6 if they get a backstrike which with parry is easy to do).

They also have Stealth so you can't shot them up on the way to you. Same point cost.

[Lazlo]

Again.. I point you to Kayazy assassins.

MAT 9 POW 12 +3d6 on charge (4d6 if they get a backstrike which with parry is easy to do).

They also have Stealth so you can't shot them up on the way to you. Same point cost.

Yeah, but it's not like they get access to buffs like Iron Flesh, Signs and Portents, or Primed. Oh wait...

[Zerosoul]

Swordsmen definitely need something. I've been pretty disappointed with them so far. Part of that is the lack of dedicated infantry support spells outside of Breath Stealer, but part of it is just feeling that they're lacking something. I personally blame the UA. Cleave is practically worthless on a model without Reach, and while magical weapons are certainly nice, I'm not sure they're 3 points nice, even when you take the Champion into account. I don't think they need to be immune to free strikes (in fact, I'm sure they don't), but they need to do something.

Overtake. Ugh. I hate how it's the solution to -everything- when it comes to melee units, but I really think that overtake would be handy on them, especially if they can keep Cleave. Maybe give them Overtake only on the charge or something, but I think it'll help.

[alchahest]

hm. perhaps you have a point. fearless is valuable, though, definitely.

[Zazoo]

I was taking a look at the models the other night and thier swords are exactly the same size as the Legionnaires swords, so I suggested they have reach in my feedback.

That would make them too good tho for the 5/8 but hey at least it would sort out the UA at the same time, since cleave then becomes great with reach.

Another idea that might be nice is give them reposte as a standard skill.
It would not come into play often but it would be enough to make them worth thier 5/8.

[CorporateSellout]

I'd like it if they separated the UA making the Deacon a UA and the Champion a weapon attachment since he really plays like one. That way I can take the Champion for his great defensive strike and combo strike for half the points, but leave the useless effects of the deacon behind. It makes logical sense, at least to me, but there of course isn't any precedent for splitting a UA in two so I doubt something like that would happen.

[amphoterik]

I agree that the ability to ignore freestrikes is nice, but something we would hardly ever use. I would much prefer to see a more toned down ability that we would use all of the time on the swordmen.

[Hjelmen0]

I would just like to see something that makes Cleave worthwhile ... maybe a minifeat that grants Overtake? They only get one good turn anyways, and with Cleave and Overtake they could really do what their fluff describes. Charge into the fray and hack up a unit, and then die miserably :P

[Karam]

I first I thought. Holy S*** What the? But As I looked I think parry and the point drop would make these guys viable. And after kicking around what I could do with swordsmen with parry. (The best I thought of was run around a khador jack list) I don't think its over powered. It would give the swordsmen some identity. And I would bring them sometimes, but I would probably stick with my legionnaires. I dont think they should have cleave. Its not that useful and is a little much. Fearless is premium now remember? I like the Idea with the UA giving them some survivability, I would have to playtest it to know what the impact of it is though. I do like granted:riposte but I would fear them eclipsing the legionnaires in retaliatory ability.

[Loveless]

Do they need parry?

Are your swordsmen taking a lot of free strikes in testing? I admit they need something, but I'm not sure if parry solves the problem. Even Duellist seems odd. Both suggestions encourage you to get your Swordsmen "stuck-in." But I don't see that as being what Swordsmen are for - we have Legionnaires if we want someone to get stuck in, and Legionnaires benefit from dying in melee.

Swordsmen feel more like the unit you take when you want to demolish things in melee. Their answer to survivability in melee should be to remove as many opposing combatants as possible - arguably shown by the granted Magic Weapons and Cleave ability of their overpriced UA.

The problem isn't - or shouldn't be - surviving in melee. The answer should come in the form of getting to melee. Be it defense against shooting, ways to use terrain to our advantage, or something of that sort if we're looking for stat/ability buffs.

The other way to do this would be to give them a way to further demolish combatants - playing on the glass hammer role. Overtake meshes well with Cleave, though - as has been mentioned - Overtake seems to be the flavor of the month for Infantry unit fixes. Side Step would likely produce a similar effect, though this just makes them better at getting out of LOS if they whiff their initial attack.

[Garth]

I don't need parry on swordsmen. This would make Rhyas even more unplayable :-). Why would need Dash if you have swordsmen with parry ?

No, I think I want the ability from Satyxis with +2 defense against ranged and spells and no blast damage. That would make the UA good. Add reach to them and they are worth their points.

[Karam]

I don't need parry on swordsmen. This would make Rhyas even more unplayable :-). Why would need Dash if you have swordsmen with parry ?

No, I think I want the ability from Satyxis with +2 defense against ranged and spells and no blast damage. That would make the UA good. Add reach to them and they are worth their points.

I understand the Ryas problem, but I don't really play her and I would like a good reason to bring swordsmen.

I also like Overtake + Cleave and Force Barrier on them. But I'd like those on ANY melee unit espescially those with weapon master. It seems like they are the special of the day, so no one looks at the menu. Force Barrier fluffwise doesn't make sense. At the least the above OP's ideas make sense and give a nice fluffy identity and role to the swordsmen. We still have 2 other good melee units that could make use of Ryas's dash, though it doesn't look that useful to begin with or rather its just as situational as parry on now you pay fury on a lowish fury warlock to do it. But all this means if it were done, Is Ryas's spells need another look at, maybe.

[amphoterik]

I don't need parry on swordsmen. This would make Rhyas even more unplayable :-). Why would need Dash if you have swordsmen with parry ?

No, I think I want the ability from Satyxis with +2 defense against ranged and spells and no blast damage. That would make the UA good. Add reach to them and they are worth their points.

I think that might be asking a bit much. I think a mini feat on the UA (either a withdrawl or a 2nd attack) would make the UA shine. As far as the swordsmen themselves, not too sure.

[alchahest]

I don't need parry on swordsmen. This would make Rhyas even more unplayable :-). Why would need Dash if you have swordsmen with parry ?

No, I think I want the ability from Satyxis with +2 defense against ranged and spells and no blast damage. That would make the UA good. Add reach to them and they are worth their points.

are you taking swordsmen with Rhyas? it's almost always better to take legionnaires.

[Lazlo]

Force Barrier from the UA would be much preferable to Parry, as it seems the difficulty is getting the swordsmen to their target.

I'd also like to add Granted: Blessed to the Granted: Magical Weapon.

[alchahest]

howabout, magic weapons as standard on the swordsmen, and the abbot adds grievous wounds?

that way we have a (relatively) cheap way to deal with menoth superjack walls and incorp. things, without having the "lose this single model and it's done" liability.

[CorporateSellout]

As to the swordsmen; I think they need to be left alone. They've been cherished in their simplicity since Primal, and I don't expect that to change; however, their cost should be adjusted to a level similar to the previous format. Particularly, the swordsmen used to be costed similar to the base unit of winterguard (also a unit with a similar amount of simplicity) who now cost 4/6 pts. My thoughts: just cost them appropriately; no frills.

As to the UA, I wonder, Would the UA's cost change with a mini-feat such as:
Shift - Once per game before using their movement, members of the swordsmen unit may each be placed within 2" of their current location. Knocked down models do not benefit from Shift. The Swordsmen's controller chooses the order of placement.

I think this idea lends itself well to the Legion's theme of flexibility and mobility (actually inspired by the Legion's own seraph). It would give the swordsmen a significant new dimension as they'd then be able to be used to bypass a front-line if done inappropriately (2" isn't too far to be blocked by a smart opponent), make a lengthy charge, or regroup for a redirected blitz.

Does it fit?

[Lazlo]

Something like that would almost certainly be worded "completely within" as all other 2" placements that I can think of. That wouldn't be enough to get past a defensive line.

[Warcaster Kirin Folken]

Sorry im keeping Parry and Dualist, the rest of you guys can keep what ever you want :D

Legionarries use to be a so so unit, now they seem to be everyones answer to everything. Thiers dirty cheap and fullfill so many rolls.
That to me says, thier to good.. then again they left Iron Fang pikemen exzactly as they were so who knows what PP is thinking. The lastest Nerf to warmongers who were already hurting really makes me wonder what PP is thinking.



Parry and Dualist allows Swordsmen to get themselves stuck in the enemys own models for protection while hacking them up. Dont brush off parry just because Rhyas can give free strike immunity.. "iF' She can cast a spell... and "if" thier in range.

Try some games with parry first and see how you like it, i think it really fits master swordsmen to have parry and Dualist, and it gives the swordsmen thier own idenity in legions forces.

[CorporateSellout]

... then again they left Iron Fang pikemen exactly as they were, so who knows what PP is thinking.
At least the IFP saw a comparative price hike that nobody really denied was appropriate. How can the legionnaires be the least expensive combat unit when they have the potential for the highest armor, CMA w/ reach, and the mighty vengeance. It just makes no sense when compared to the more expensive swords with simple rules and no other tactics than advance and swing.

[Garth]

At least the IFP saw a comparative price hike that nobody really denied was appropriate. How can the legionnaires be the least expensive combat unit when they have the potential for the highest armor, CMA w/ reach, and the mighty vengeance. It just makes no sense when compared to the more expensive swords with simple rules and no other tactics than advance and swing.

Legionnaries are a good (a very good) unit. They aren't overpowered if you compare them to other good units from other factions, but they are still very good.
Swordsmen are underpowered. They cost 8 points. For that points the other factions get their elite units. All swordsmen have is pow 10 weaponmaster. Not really great.And the UA for 3 points is the worst in the game.

If you compare this 2 units swordsmen seem really underpowered and Legionnaries great. In the end legionnaries are one of the best units you get for 6 points and swordsmen of the worst units you get for 8 points.

[nanozach]

I may be a sheep straying from the flock here... but I like the swordsmen about where they are. The things I like are the 14 def, the 7 mat, and the high damage output. I DO like the added flexibility of cleave from the ua. I see the argument that without reach this is not as great, but I see so many models that need to be b2b to get benefits like higher armor, so those are ideal targets for 1/2" melee cleavers with high dmg output. The magical weapons have also come in handy, not OFTEN, but its nice against certain armies.

Things I find more "meh" are having 5 hp on an armor 13 model... (or an armor 11 model like the shepherd). The hp are really only good at mitigating auto 1 or 3 points of damage, any real hit and there is no difference between these "more survivable" units and a grunt. I think if they got a "fix" it should be something that enhanced their defense, either vs melee or range, preferably range. I could see them deflecting arrows with those big swords.

I also think riposte would be incredible (and incredibly fitting) on them, simply because of their already fairly high defense. I could see a trade between tactics cleave and tactics riposte fitting nicely, but would miss tactics cleave, maybe give it as a tactics to the Champion, this way they have it, but your opponent can still strip it away. I don't think anyone would complain about three points for them this way, and i don't think it would push them towards being overpowered.

edit: I meant give tactics: cleave to the abbot and tactics: riposte to the champion, i think that read unclearly, but honestly it would work either way.

[saintdave22]

Is the problem swordsman?

Is the problem the UA?

Personally I think swordsman are okay for what they do. Yes, I would like for them to be better but if we do that I think we take a hit with the legion tax thats going around (see warmongers) and our legionaires might be jacked up.

I think everyone wants something more out of the Abbot and Deacon. Why not give back the chants they had in MK I?