Sentry Stone.

[LEJKaya]

Ok, I have been using it for a while...

All my opponents say they much prefer it now as opposed to the old 'put 1 manikin in to play, use one of its sac abilities, wonder wh it comes with 3 models...'

However all agree the only issues are its CMD range and its survivability.
Does anyone else have any problems other than these?

[Blaque]

Manikins not activating when they are amde slows the unit down immensely. As it has to blow Manikins up to do the most useful abilities, it burns through them faster then it can utilize them. Oftentimes I have to keep one inr eserve, meanign I'm paying for models that literally just sit there I guess.

The CMD range thing really is a bother too. I have had it where there was a high-priority target literally an inch away form a spray range and so the Manikin was stuck spraying and missing due to no ability to get the boost. I hoenstly can't fathom why they thought 6" was a good number in this case.

And yeah, surivability is a joke. DEF 5 medium-based models just out and out die to range too easily,r egardless of wounds. Lack of abilty in MkII to heal tiself is also a pain. And the Manikins are even easier to kill, as they lost Camoflouge but gained no personal stat buffs.

So yeah. It has issues. Lots of 'em.

And stuff.

[Zyrael]

Ya my opponents prefer it now too. Then again it had become a sneer-inducing menace in MK I.

Consider momentarily if it worked how it did in MK I (down to even requiring shifting stones to make it move). Consider that rough terrain doesn't stop charges. Then consider AD is shorter. Then consider invisibility would have to become stealth. Then consider it is 50% more expensive proportionally from MK I. When I consider all that... I wonder... why the change?

We currently have the ability to create minimal amounts of terrain only properly utilized to defend the 3 pt investment. It's completely useless. That is without hyperbole... it has NO function.

The Sentry stone is THE pariah of MK II. Circle players loved it, perhaps even reveled in it, players of every other faction hated it.

Now we see it as completely un-fieldable. And players of every other faction can't spare a tissue so-to-speak.

If MK II is about choice ... this things need to be a real choice. It's not even a 1 pt model as of now. It's almost in the "mini-game" niche with the spawning vessel. The options for changing/fixing it are obvious and plentiful. I just hope the devs make time for this one model we ALL forked out money for 2 of.

[YabaBaga]

I used them the other night in a 50 point game and was quite pleased with them. They actually survived for a few turns because I had other threats that required more of my opponent's attention and my opponent was a guy who utterly loathed them in Mark I.

I think they are much more offensive in nature than in Mark I, at least against Hordes. I like how all the abilities are 'once during its activation' so you can Phase and then steal some Fury and then use that Fury as the mannikins attack. It would be much better if the mannikins could activate when they appear but I think that would be too strong and generally units that can create their own troopers have that clause anyway.

Giving it Stealth or Sacrificial Pawn would help it survive against ranged and perhaps making it unable to be charged would keep it alive longer in melee but I think then it would take a hit to its other abilities which would make me sad.

[Voltimor]

why not give sentry "structure" rule need atleast POW 14 ranged attack to damage it and cannot charge or slam the sentry stone ? and maybe prowl.

[Blaque]

why not give sentry "structure" rule need atleast POW 14 ranged attack to damage it and cannot charge or slam the sentry stone ? and maybe prowl.
I'd doubt it would get both, but i will admit, something like either of those (or just stragith-up Stealth) would really help it a lot I think.

And stuff.

[Dantes]

Alright here's my compiled thought on the stone as well as what I think needs to be done to give it a fix.

As it stand the stone is not really worth more then a point against warmachine and only two against hordes. As an auto hit in melee and a DEF so low that even while concealed inside a forests or with cover it can be hit by missile troops. The 18 ARM is no insurance against either as well. A single CRA on a standard POW 10 ranged attacked would only require two guys out of a 6 or ten men unit to drop the stone in a single round of shooting.

Offensively the stone lacks as well. One fury a turn means it either generates a manikin or moves. If you are using the manikins to generate forests to shield the stone then you are gradually going to lose to attrition to keep it alive. This also means that the manikin aren't doing anything other then generating forest and have sacraficed all offensive potential just to keep the stone on the board.

The stone needs a way to keep some of it's offensive ability while not using it's entire unit to keep itself alive. So my proposed changes are thus:

Wellspring - If there are fewer than 3 fury points on the Sentry Stone at the start of its activation, place 1 fury point on it, place an additional fury point if it is completely within a terrain feature. If there
are less than 3 Mannikin Grunts in this unit in play at any time during its unitʼs activation, this model can spend 1 fury point to put
a Mannikin Grunt in play. Place the Mannikin Grunt in formation. Mannikin Grunts cannot activate the activation they are put in
play. If this model is destroyed or removed from play, the Mannikin Grunts in its unit are removed from play.

Phase - This model can spend 1 fury point to use Phase once at any time during its unitʼs activation. When it does, either this model gains Stealth for one round, or place this model anywhere completely within 5˝ of its current location.

Changes are underlined. This gives the stone the abilty to swap movement for protection if it chooses and allows it to generate a little more fury if it says within terrain. As no opponent well genreally put multiple terraint features within 5" of each other the worry of jumping from terrain feature to terrain feature should be minimal. Also Cirlcles terrain generation abilities would have to be focues on the stone if they wanted to maximise it's effects. Meaning the resources spent to do so would not be spent elsewhere.

All in all I think it's a fair trade to help the model actually see more table time. As it stands I would take a Blackclad or War Wolf before I'd field a Sentry stone.

[LEJKaya]

I played more today, my groups suggestions (Which I will be submitting as feedback unless someone here brings up a particular point) are:

Increase CMD (Suggest 9 for the manikins to charge with any effect)
Increase phase to 8"
Add either Made of Stone or Stealth. As a lesser alternative Spell Ward or Sacrificial Pawn [Manikin]. It could even be some effect for 1 fury giving it some defense (One suggestion was be immune to non magical effects for 1 fury)

[Dantes]

I played more today, my groups suggestions (Which I will be submitting as feedback unless someone here brings up a particular point) are:

Increase CMD (Suggest 9 for the manikins to charge with any effect)
Increase phase to 8"
Add either Made of Stone or Stealth. As a lesser alternative Spell Ward or Sacrificial Pawn [Manikin]. It could even be some effect for 1 fury giving it some defense (One suggestion was be immune to non magical effects for 1 fury)


A 9 CMD means a 9" Devour Magic. I don't see Manikins being Charge grunts either. I see their two primary purposes being Forest Growth and Splinter burst. Even walking them into melee to provoke free strikes I think is useless with their MAT 5.

The 8" Phase is too much IMO. First it's a place effect and then 8" on top of that. That's almost like 8" MK1 Wings. It's not a good idea. The stone has a good enough time getting around with it's 5" place I think.

Made of Stone is not coming back. It was far too strong. Stealth however I think is a far more reasonable idea.

[YabaBaga]

Yeah, I don't think we'll see the ranges change as it would make it too crazy with its current abilities. It would be nice if it were cheaper but then we'd have to give up something and I don't want that. I honestly think that it just needs some defensive measure and it'll be fine.

It's not for everyone but I still like it.

[bushman101]

The Sentry Stone dies way too quick and isn't very effective.

I used to complain about the Shifting Stones dying too quick. But at least they function from the back lines. The Sentry Stone doesn't really have that luxury if it wants to steal Fury/Focus or generate Manikins that will be useful.

The Sentry Stone, as is, is a large stone target that is hardly useful.

[Macguffin]

The Sentry Stone needs a longer leash, protection from range, and mannikins that can do something the turn they are put in play. I would almost prefer the sentry stone take away friendly fury as opposed to enemy fury/focus and just be a very aggressive unit.

[AtomicNecrotech]

Would it be better instead for Wellspring to generate one Manikin or one fury during the control phase thus allowing the one created to activate while not removing the fury generation ability? Something like this:

Wellspring - At the beginning of your control phase, put one Manikin Grunt into play and in formation if there are fewer than 3 Manikin Grunts in this unit or place 1 Fury on the Sentry Stone if there are fewer than 3 Fury points on the Sentry Stone. If there are less than 3 Manikin Grunts in this unit in play at any time during its unitʼs activation, this model can spend 1 fury point to put a Manikin Grunt in play. Place the Manikin Grunt in formation. Manikin Grunts cannot activate the activation they are put in play. If this model is destroyed or removed from play, the Manikin Grunts in its unit are removed from play.

[Dantes]

I honestly don't see the big deal with them being able to activate the turn they come into play unless you really just to swarm with manikins. That's the only real benefit you gain from activating the turn they arrive. I like how it is. It just needs a little more fury generation IMO and the ability to gain some protection from range.

[Zyrael]

the reason they should activate the turn they spawn is they never survive till the next turn. They are quite literally MANIKINS. Wooden 12/12 decoys waiting for an errant bullet or blast dmg roll. Speaking of blast damage rolls... since you can tag that sentry stone with a Mortar with ease make sure u don't put that mannikin next to it otherwise it'll just get popped...

[Dragonowar]

I have thought about this a bit and I have been using the new woldwarden animus to help protect them as they move up. It feels strange to support a support unit but I have been able to get them in that way. The level of their contribution has still been low though. I submitted feedback suggesting mannikins be allowed to act the turn they are created and to allow the stone to spend 1 fury for stealth for a turn. I toyed with the idea of suggesting that the sentry stone could gain a serenity like effect except it gets to keep the fury it pulls off friendlies. To balance that out, it would be automatic not an option to remove the fury. Just a thought.

[txiab]

Why not just make the stone incorporeal?

[Rosicrucian]

Why not just make the stone incorporeal?

Potentially quite powerful given that the stone never needs to attack and most magical attacks tend to be low in power. It would annoy the hell out of legion for example.

[krom71]

I'm thinking that you could keep the CMD 6, but give it a Long Leash ability, which increases the formation range on the Mannikins to 9". I'd like to see the Mannkins activate when they come into play as well, but I can live without it.

I'd give my left die to get back Made of Stone, but if its not coming back then at least give me Stealth.

[UnderWood]

I stopped fielding them when my opponents realized that if they kill my manikins the sentry stone is useless.

Seriously at least give the unit prowl so people can't just shoot out my manikins.

[Dantes]

the reason they should activate the turn they spawn is they never survive till the next turn. They are quite literally MANIKINS. Wooden 12/12 decoys waiting for an errant bullet or blast dmg roll. Speaking of blast damage rolls... since you can tag that sentry stone with a Mortar with ease make sure u don't put that mannikin next to it otherwise it'll just get popped...
I'm going to hope that you just don't see how potentially wrong allowing them to activate the turn they are generated is. Otherwise it looks like you are attempting to pull a fast one.

Under your propsed change you could:

Spray with the three starting manikins.
Generate, from your obligatory 1 fury, a minikin, have it move and spray.
Devour Magic for 5.
Generate three more manikins. Have them move and spray.
Generate two more manikins and have them move and spray.

That is potentially 9x RNG 8 POW 12 sprays in a single turn.

No. Just no.

The stone needs something to make it useful but not the change you are suggesting.

[LEJKaya]

The stone could have to devour magic, spawn manikins and then activate the manikins with no further manikins allowed to be made after they activate.

Wellspring - If there are fewer than 3 fury points on the Sentry Stone at the start of its activation, place 1 fury point on it. If there are less than 3 Mannikin Grunts in this unit in play at at the start of its activation, this model can spend up to 3 fury points to put one Mannikin Grunt in play per fury point spent. Place the Mannikin Grunt in formation. Mannikin Grunts activate as normal the activation they are put in play. If this model is destroyed or removed from play, the Mannikin Grunts in its unit are removed from play.

[otakud00d]

Its defenses are crap and its mannikins are shut down when it's put into play. It has to spend its own limited resources to protect itself rather than the army it's deployed with.

What's the point?

[LEJKaya]

Yeah, we know the problems... need solutions.

[otakud00d]

Letting that one slide.

Stealth goes a long way to bringing its staying power back. Made of Stone is iffy, considering there aren't that many high-powered shots outside of Legion that ignore Stealth.

Mannikins being able to activate the turn they're out, limited to being deployed one turn at a time after you run low on them.

Finally, increase the CMD to 8 and I think it'll work.

[Faradon]

Very surprised we didn't see an update to this model for the holiday update...

[Dantes]

Very surprised we didn't see an update to this model for the holiday update...
This either means they think it's fine as is or that they haven't decided how to fix it yet.

[Zyrael]

I had an idea for shifting stones, maybe it could have application here as well...

Ok so shifting stones are squishy cause low pow pew-pew's build up. A single pow 23 kills them outright. So how bout make shifting stones 1 wound models with arm 22. That way pow 10's straight can't kill them, and it's unlikely for anything lower than pow 15 to do it. It succeeds in the point of Made of Stone without having to write out a new rule. Simple and good. Also less health boxes to have to keep track of.

Now for the Sentry Stone (not fixing the greater problem of it's true purpose) we can fix it's survivability by combining stealth (no words required, it's an icon) and ARM 22 and lower it's wounds to 5.

[Bluedog]

Personally, they still find their way into the vast majority of my lists. However, there is still one thing which seriously annoys me every single game CMD 6!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If I spread out my mannikins so they aren't standing on top of the stone, they can't even even make a full advance....

Although the main reason I field them is to get in the way and make forests. In one game which I did end up losing recently my opponent actually found them one of the most frustrating parts of my army due to his lack of forest negating effects.

So, I will keep fielding my one unit to get me an expensive bunch of trees. But I would appreciate some freedom in maneuvering.

[countbrass]

I sent in feedback asking if it could be given a fury vault like ability. If a warlock could charge it up would it feel like a solid 3 point solo to you circle players?

[Bakemono]

They need either Stealth or an immunity to CRAs at the very minimum. A rewrite of "Made of Stone" would be that the bonus to damage from CRAs and CMAs is lost.

[paulj1096]

I keep looking at the Menoth's covenant solo and what it brings for 2 points. It brings offensive and defensive utility to an army while being very hard to drag down.

My proposal is to give the sentry stone 5 hp and ancient shroud. No stealth, no made of stone, merely force the opponent to strike it 5 times in order to kill it. That makes it quite an investment for the enemy.

As with everyone else, mannikins should be one-per-turn but activate when summoned. I also am in favor of loading up on fury from friendly warbeasts.

[LEJKaya]

I had an idea for shifting stones, maybe it could have application here as well...

Ok so shifting stones are squishy cause low pow pew-pew's build up. A single pow 23 kills them outright. So how bout make shifting stones 1 wound models with arm 22. That way pow 10's straight can't kill them, and it's unlikely for anything lower than pow 15 to do it. It succeeds in the point of Made of Stone without having to write out a new rule. Simple and good. Also less health boxes to have to keep track of.

Now for the Sentry Stone (not fixing the greater problem of it's true purpose) we can fix it's survivability by combining stealth (no words required, it's an icon) and ARM 22 and lower it's wounds to 5.

Everybody try this! It works.
There are other issues with the manikins but stone survivability is by far the top problem and ARM 22, 5 health makes the stone ok (Especially the shifting stones which become survivable enough to try to figure a teleport into a plan!).

I was using sentrys with just this (No stealth) and they were doing alright for a 3 point unit.

[Zyrael]

Everybody try this! It works.
There are other issues with the manikins but stone survivability is by far the top problem and ARM 22, 5 health makes the stone ok (Especially the shifting stones which become survivable enough to try to figure a teleport into a plan!).

I was using sentrys with just this (No stealth) and they were doing alright for a 3 point unit.

Glad to hear. I haven't got to test it yet myself. Have a tournament tomorrow... so we're using official rules. Maybe I'll test it after the tournie.

[ahroun5]

a few easy ways that this could be helped is this

1) increase cmd to 8-9
2) have devour magic at a set range of 6inches
3) stealth on the sentry stone it self

these things would make it more worth while with out really adding too many rules

[Amarel]

Everybody try this! It works.
There are other issues with the manikins but stone survivability is by far the top problem and ARM 22, 5 health makes the stone ok (Especially the shifting stones which become survivable enough to try to figure a teleport into a plan!).

I was using sentrys with just this (No stealth) and they were doing alright for a 3 point unit.
I've only tried one game like this (vs Cygnar), but without Stealth it was still taken out too quickly. The whole proposal of Arm 22, 5 Wounds & Stealth will work though, I think (I'll try it with Stealth today vs the same Cygnar army).

[Drillermaniac]

I have an idea. I'm not sure if it works, but what the hell.

First, give the Sentry stone sacrificial Pawn, so it can kill a grunt when damaged. Then, give it 1 fury whenever a manakin is killed within its command area.

[Amarel]

I have an idea. I'm not sure if it works, but what the hell.

First, give the Sentry stone sacrificial Pawn, so it can kill a grunt when damaged. Then, give it 1 fury whenever a manakin is killed within its command area.
That's a very interesting...

Although PP have been removing the damned if you do / damned if you don't gameplay from Skorne, so something that does that might not be what they're looking for (but I'm just hypothesizing).

[LEJKaya]

The only issue with the ARM 22 idea is snipers.

Gaining a fury when a manikin sacrifices itself may work too...

[krom71]

I'll play test the higher ARM thing, but I think PP is set on Stone being ARM 18. Stone Structures are ARM 18 still.

Here's the changes I'd like to see:
Bring back Made of Stone. If not, give it Stealth.
Extend Mannikins range out to 8 or 9" either by increasing CMD or giving it some kind of Long Leash ability.
I can see allowing Mannikins to move but not make actions or attacks on the turn they come into play. I don't think they're going to let us pop something into play for a spray attack when all other 'come into play' abilities are limited.

[havukwrecka]

8 CMD
Mannikins activate the turn they come into play.

I can deal with the squishiness if the darn unit will at least do something.

[LEJKaya]

Manikins activating the turn they come into play would be ok but it'd have to be able to make them only at the start of its activation.

[Zyrael]

Manikins activating the turn they come into play would be ok but it'd have to be able to make them only at the start of its activation.

Another problem solved by separating the Model back into a solo that generates solo's INSTEAD Of a unit.

Honestly, people think about this. What problems wouldn't be solved if we started with the old sentry stone and tweaked it a bit for MK II considerations. Examine this layout.

Sentry Stone
Circle Orboros Solo

Stats:
SPD | STR | MAT | RAT | DEF | ARM | CMD
-0-----0-----0-----0-----5-----20----8

Health: 8 Boxes.
FA: 2
Point Cost: 3

Advantages:
Construct
Advance Deployment
Stealth

Fury Vault: capped at 3 tho.

Devour Magic: Same wording but require a cmd check again.

Phase: Same.

Immobile: Same.

Wellspring: During the Maintenance Phase if there are less than 3 mannikin's anchored to this model, create one within 3" of the Sentry Stone. The Sentry Stone may spend 1 fury each to create additional Mannikins, but cannot have any more than 3 anchored to it at one time.

Forest Growth (* Action) - This model may spend a fury to place a 3" template that is considered a forest completely within it's CMD range.


Mannikin
Circle Orboros Anchored Solo

Stats:
SPD | STR | MAT | RAT | DEF | ARM | CMD
-6-----7-----5-----4-----12----12----

Advantages:
Construct
Prowl
Pathfinder

Anchored - If this model leaves the CMD range of the model that created it, it is immediately removed from play.

Splinter Burst (* Attack) - Splinter Burst is a magical ranged attack with base RNG 10 and POW 12. Immediately after the Splinter Burst attack is resolved, remove this model from play.

Root (* Attack) - Root is a melee attack targeting an enemy warbeast or warjack. Target model hit by Root suffers -2 Def and Spd for one round. Immediately after the Root attack is resolved, remove this model from play.

WEAPONS (Mannikin)
Claw [2x] (None) POW: 4 --- P+S: 11
Magical Weapon

WHEW....

[Zyrael]

So why is this balanced?

1. It's a fury burden on the warlock.
2. Mannikins cannot be chain created throughout the turn.
3. Max of one forest, at a fury cost to the caster.
4. No more spray attack. Sprays have got better, and it's unreasonable on a free model. One pow 12 shot is plenty fine.
5. Mannikin's operate like disposable so-so solo's not unstoppable templates of forests and sprays.
6. The Sentry Stone is Vulnerable to charges from moderate power infantry. Dice minus 10 on pow 10s is to discourage piling in low pow shots. But pow 12s will kill it in short order.

Comments? Plz? I spent a lot of time working on this.

[LEJKaya]

I could do without the spray if we got root.

I was looking at making devour magic measured from manikins so the stone didn't have to be too close. If the stone is to be immobile, I doubt it'd get much use out of it at 8" with new Advance Deploy.

I'm not sure about the forest, you'll have to give me time on that.

[Dantes]

Magical sprays is the only thing that keeps me taking this unit. Without that I see no reason to bother. Terrain generation is moot IMO, I can plan and work around not having it.

Losing the spray is a deal breaker IMO.

[Teleologica]

I'm new to Hordes in general, so I don't know why the Stones were considered such a pain in Mk 1 (and I guess that doesn't matter now anyway). One question though - what is the Sentry Stone actually for?

That's not a rhetorical question. Most of the other models in the faction which generated negative feedback had an obvious role or roles. People on these forums were posting that x model wasn't very good as eg an offensive heavy, or an infantry support warlock or whatever, and made suggestions how it could better do its job.

I have been following the debate on Sentry Stones, and I am still entirely unclear as to what they are in the list for. When you are thinking about putting this model in your list for a game or tourny, what is it in there for? A terrain-generator; a damage-dealing model generator; a fury management aid; is it the offensive support unit counterpart to shifting stones' defensive support unit? I'm not saying that every unit ought to be pigeon-holed into one role (because every faction needs its basic infantry, reach infantry, heavy infantry, cavalry, fury management unit etc ;)) I do wonder though, whether we might have a better time of trying to decide how to improve it, if we actually had a coherent and faction-wide consensus* on what those improvements are aimed at achieving.

* And yeah, I know we won't get faction-wide consensus, I just mean at least some general agreement as to where we're going.

[Zyrael]

The "purpose" of the Sentry Stone was ostensibly to put a cheap and reliable forest into play.

After awhile what it did was to spray the heck out of everything within 11" of itself every turn. The sprays became problematic and broken. Because you could create a mannikin and let it get the aiming bonus to really nuke the board. Now that sprays are stronger it's even HARDER to balance that aspect.

If we want reliable forest generation, we have to know stupid easy sprays are gonna go.

[Dantes]

The "purpose" of the Sentry Stone was ostensibly to put down cheap POW 12 magic sprays. It is our artillery piece after all.

Once in a while what it did was to generate a forest or two to help block some LOS to our squishy non-stealthed models the turn before they charged. The forests became problematic and broken. Because you could create a manikin and let it generate a forest allowing Baldur to teleport around and granting Ravagers and Reavers the ability to use thier abilities almost anywhere on the board.

If we want reliable magical sprays, we have to know stupid easy forest generation is gonna go.

See what I did there?

[LEJKaya]

What if fury on the stone added to its ARM?

[Dantes]

What if fury on the stone added to its ARM?
Interesting. Though I think it would be better as +1 ARM and +1 CMD for each fury point. I've got to try a few games with some of the idea's I've got and see how they work. I'll post the ones that don't suck here.

[Zyrael]

The "purpose" of the Sentry Stone was ostensibly to put down cheap POW 12 magic sprays. It is our artillery piece after all.

Once in a while what it did was to generate a forest or two to help block some LOS to our squishy non-stealthed models the turn before they charged. The forests became problematic and broken. Because you could create a manikin and let it generate a forest allowing Baldur to teleport around and granting Ravagers and Reavers the ability to use thier abilities almost anywhere on the board.

If we want reliable magical sprays, we have to know stupid easy forest generation is gonna go.

See what I did there?

successfully said nothing?

The Sentry putting out 12" threat range rat 6 sprays with complete impunity was ludicrous.

A forest was more annoying MK I as it could completely stop charges even if a model was only 1/4" in it. That obviously doesn't work in MK II.

What hasn't changed is a Spray from a free model realistically kill 4 models at a time. In fact with the improvements to sprays it's more powerful. Now in the case of the Sentry stone being completely nonfunctional the spray doesn't matter. But trying to make that work is trying to balance something borken.

The Sentry Stone was designed as an ALTERNATIVE to artillery. It was deliberately not artillery. IF we were intended to have one, it'd be a big ballista instead of a magic stone.

[Dantes]

The spray's weren't bad. It's not that strong and is really short range.

The ability to have complete control over charge lanes, LOS and such is what was overpowered. With how many of our models have stealth along with forest generation? Stupid strong. In MK1 I would run 2 Sentry stones just to piss off and annoy my opponents with the fact they couldn't see my army until I decided to let them.

Any tactical leader of ANY age will tell you that a battle is won and lost on the ability to choose where to fight. The MK1 Sentry stone gave us that. The MK2 stone is almost worse because it starts with all three AND can move on it's own. The only thing keeping it in check is it's lack of survivability. The changes to the stone that need to be made are not to make it's forest generation asshatery better but to make it more of the offensive weapon that it should be as our artillery piece.

But I can see that we are only going to disagree over this and that was the point I was trying to make. Offensive sprays and fury manipulation that is what the stone is to me.

[UnderWood]

What the sentry stone is lacking is longevity.

I don't mean the length of time it lives for I mean the length of time it is actually useful in a game.

With phasing and spending fury on manikins and manikins not being able to activate the turn there made your sentry stone just runs out of guff.

If your playing a game against an opponent with long range shooting (which is every opponent I face recently) you have to start making forests almost from turn one. Yet if you want your sentry stone to be able to get fury you have to move it forwards. So every turn your losing a manikin and not getting it back and if your playing very defensibly and put down more than one forest a turn your going to run out of manikins on turn 2 or 3.

Your only option at this point is to either stand still or hope you have fury or focus in 6" of you. So your either playing a hyper aggressive opponent or you stop moving on turn 2 or 3 since when you use your last manikin you have to make a new manikin that turn or you can't place forests or make attacks next turn.

Now you can do the trick of moving your sentry stone with shifting stones but if you move the full 8" you run a very high risk of putting your own manikins out of unit formation. Which then means they cant spray or make forests.

So basicly the sentry stone just runs out of steam on about the third turn if you try and make defensive forests and gets shot to death if you don't play it defensively. With a 5" move and a 6" control your not going to start getting multiple models you can leach fury off until the third turn you can get one on the second turn if your lucky but then your sentry stone is 6" from a warbeast and you have to use your manikins to block LOS.

As it stands the only time I had my sentry stone do anything effective was when my opponent literally ignored the entire unit all game. Otherwise its just run out of steam on turn three or been killed on turn 2 or three.

[havukwrecka]

^^^

Thank you UnderWood the game was changed to move faster and so far in my MK2 games it is doing just that. My Sentry Stone just can't keep up in his current incarnation and it is useless to me.

As for the conversation about what a Sentry Stone did in MK1. It did all that good stuff that was mentioned but I think the main point of the nerf is that it was such a cheap way to tie up your opponents models. Pop mannikin, run up to engage, now your opponent is forced to spend an attack to get rid of it or take a free strike. :) Attacks being spent not killing my models is a great defense.

Then you throw in these combos.....
Morv + Regrowth unit + Mannikins = me winning with a LOT of my army still on the table.
Pillars of Salt with Mohsar starts adding up to a lot of attacks not hurting your models.

It is not an easy unit to balance but the nerf is too hard core, they need to fix it.

[txiab]

Ancient Shroud is an interesting suggestion.

[Dantes]

Ancient Shroud is an interesting suggestion.
They'd have to drop the ARM to 13 at a minimum. It's too strong on the book IMO, adding it to the stone is perpetuating a flaw. There are better solutions then Ancient Shroud.

[Critical]

10 wounds, stealth and tough and it might be worth 3 points.

Cheers!
Critical

[Zyrael]

Critical: Getting it to survive is only half the problem. Opponents have actually figured out they don't have to kill it.... it won't do anything.

The step that is even more important is making it actually do SOMETHING.

[wvieira422]

I've gotten to hate the new sentry stones completely and have stopped fielding them totally. to fix them for their ROLE! they need to be effective as an artillery piece, that is what they are first and foremost. in MK1 they did their job pretty well which was great. In MK2 they don't do well at all.

Problems:
1. CMD range is so short that they almost never get to devour fury and the stone ends so close to the enemy it dies.
2. Manikins can be created but cannot activate so are useless and usually get shot before they can do anything. their sprays can't hit the boadside of a barn with RAT4 unless you boost with a fury which you probably need to either move or create a new manikin.
3. The stone dies really easily to just about anything. and the 5" phase helps but is not really far and it sometimes is hard to have it keep up to the manikins.

Fixes:
1. Increase CMD range back to 10" for balancing make devour a skill check again. Let the stone be able to devour from friendly models. (this would increase it's potential against Warmachine.)
2. During the units activation the stone may spend a fury to create a manikin if it has less than three on the table, The manikins may activate on the turn it's created. With the ability to devour fury from friendly models you should have the fury available to boost when needed. could drop the POW of the spray down to like 10 for further balancing.
3. As long as the stone has one fury on it, it gains Incorporeal bring back the stones ability to heal itself by using one fury for 1 point. a 5" phase would be fine for the unit if the CMD was 10".

These changes would keep this unit as good and effective artillery piece.

If you noticed most artillery pieces have a crew of 3 (manikins) and the machine (Stone). they gain +2 to hit if the models are in b2b with the machine. (Manikins gain +2 if they aim) most have a long range and are high in power. (Manikins have a long range, move and shoot, and average damage with the ability to boost, balances since manikins won't receive the aim bonus if they move.). Most artillery do large amounts of dmg especially to units (that is what manikins do)

The one thing that we have different from other artillery is manikins can create a forest instead of attacking or spraying. This does no damage but can foil many plans, good trade off kinda like firing artillery with different ammunition, useful for sure.

[Calmrod]

The "purpose" of the Sentry Stone was ostensibly to put down cheap POW 12 magic sprays. It is our artillery piece after all.

Once in a while what it did was to generate a forest or two to help block some LOS to our squishy non-stealthed models the turn before they charged. The forests became problematic and broken. Because you could create a manikin and let it generate a forest allowing Baldur to teleport around and granting Ravagers and Reavers the ability to use thier abilities almost anywhere on the board.

If we want reliable magical sprays, we have to know stupid easy forest generation is gonna go.

See what I did there?

Changed spray to forest and made yourself seem ignorant??

[Bakemono]

I've pretty much written them off. With the news that we won't see another update until after the field test, i.e. the final one, I certainly can't get excited about continuing to talk about it or test them. It doesn't work. They will either fix it or they won't. At the moment I'm just assuming I won't be using them again.

I feel pretty much the same about Autumnblade and the Woldwatcher. It would be nice if they were competitive but our faction can function without them entirely; so all is well. I just wonder what the estimate of when the final FT stats will post. There is a tournament toward the end of January and it would be awesome to be using the what passes as the the final FT rules.

[Zyrael]

Sentry Stone problematically good in MK I.... essentially removed form MK II. How do you remove a model from a faction when people paid money for it? You just make it so bad they never want to take it again.

We really shouldn't be surprised. It was a lot to deal with, making the Sentry Stone perform it's old functions and be balanced. And odds are even if it was balanced we'd have 8 factions and mercs complaining about it anyway. Yet another one of those times we'd all rather not be in MrSoles' shoes.



Lets look on the bright side. Least our faction works on the whole, even 2 casters, 1 unit, and 1 warbeast down. AND 2 Stones and 6 mannikins worth of foam space just got freed up permanently.

[Bakemono]

Heh. Pie in the sky stuff, I'd love to see the Sentry Stone neutralize "Eyeless Sight." :D Since there isn't any point in trying to test it now, we might as well just toss out wish lists.

[Zyrael]

Ok so at our LGS worthless models have been ritualistically destroyed in many ways in the past. The best one was an Amon literally crushed by spiking a CANON BALL on it on concrete.

What are some fun ways to destroy Sentry Stones and Mannikins?

[Amarel]

Lets look on the bright side. Least our faction works on the whole, even 2 casters, 1 unit, and 1 warbeast down. AND 2 Stones and 6 mannikins worth of foam space just got freed up permanently.
If only I didn't own those casters and two of the unit - I could have got both Satyrs for that cost :p.

[Zyrael]

If only I didn't own those casters and two of the unit - I could have got both Satyrs for that cost :p.

Truer words were never said.

[Rosicrucian]

Keep in mind that here are at least two maybe three more updates (End of Field Test, Final Rules Preview, Printed Final Rules) where we might see changes so destroying models at this point is a bit premature.

[Zyrael]

oh certainly. But when they are finally done, and the Sentry is still the same... I'm thinking of melting mine down to make hand sculpted bits for a forthcoming warpwolf conversion. That way the distinguished service of the Stones from the past will at least be part of the future on the table!

[UnderWood]

Man I just had the sweetest game ever with the new sentry stone

My opponent had first turn

I deployed my sentry stone 6" forwards with the manikins close to it.

My opponent shot a mortar at my bloodtrackers it fell short and deviated onto two of my manikins killing them.

My sentry stone was rendered useless before I even had a turn.

If they don't fix it I plan to double sided sticky tape my sentry stones to my nipples and then wear my shirt over them so I have giant spikey nipples.

I will then hug people they will actually be more useful doing this than they have been in the entirety of the MKII field test.

[Zyrael]

*sprayed coke out of nose*

wow... i might have to change my plans and instead copy underwood.

[DudeOfOrboros]

Ow does killing two Manikins render the Sentry Stone useless, other than not getting two forests that you were counting on?

[UnderWood]

Ow does killing two Manikins render the Sentry Stone useless, other than not getting two forests that you were counting on?

Ok it works like this for the sentry stone to get a forest where I need it I have to move it forwards for at least two turns.

My opponent is playing warmachine so the sentry stones only use is making forests it will not survive to leach focus off a warcaster.

My opponent is fielding mortars so I need to start putting down forests from turn one.

Problem

I only have one manikin I can make one forest but then cannot move my sentry stone if I want to make more it has to stand still which will mean its behind my army. I can move my sentry stone but if I make a forest I cannot produce any more manikins while im moving.

So my choices are to not move my sentry stone and make more manikins leaving it behind my army or to move it forwards but never make a defensive forest with my last manikin.

Now the scary thing is that if you deploy your manikin and stone as far forwards as you can then move your sentry stone 5" forwards you cannot move your manikin far enough forwards on the first turn to block LOS to your own sentry stone.

The entire unit is a ****fest it does not work properly it doesn't support itself it doesn't protect itself it does not gain enough resources to make itself work.

[Dragonowar]

The entire unit is a ****fest it does not work properly it doesn't support itself it doesn't protect itself it does not gain enough resources to make itself work.


This sums up my experiences with it as well.

[CyberKnight]

What are some fun ways to destroy Sentry Stones and Mannikins?

I don't think they should be destroyed, even assuming they're left in their current useless state. I think a more fitting end for them would be to grow them into one of those woven trees you see for sale at the big hardware stores. I have a great mental image of the sentry stone and it's manikins slowly being absorbed and surrounded by the merging tree branches.

[bushman101]

oh certainly. But when they are finally done, and the Sentry is still the same... I'm thinking of melting mine down to make hand sculpted bits for a forthcoming warpwolf conversion. That way the distinguished service of the Stones from the past will at least be part of the future on the table!

making a 'epic' base may be better or at least less work.
My eKaya is standing on a downed Shifting Stone (similar to the book art)

[Bakemono]

All humor aside (and a lot of this is very funny) I remain optimistic that Mr. Soles & Co. will provide us with a Sentry Stone that is functional at the end. I suspect the forest generating abilities might go away, largely because the Woldwarden does that now. I recall Mr. Soles even commenting on that overlap and how if the Woldwarden got forests rather than just rough terrain that the Sentry Stone might/would lose it. I won't speculate on what they are doing with their internal testing but I doubt (with all the chatter about this model) that they are simply ignoring it.

My guess is the Sentry Stone in the final mix will remain a unit but gain a larger command range. I think the ability to generate forests will likely swap for something else, although what that will be is hard to say. The Root attack might be back. I expect something like an auto-hit debuff where the target's DEF and SPD drop by -2 for a turn. The Manniken is destroyed as normal. My guess is the Stone might gain Stealth (as they are unlikely to put Made of Stone back no matter how much I think it is appropriate). I think "Made of Stone" should be rewritten to make the model immune to the damage bonuses from CRA and CMA. This alone would solve the problem but I'm not holding my breath. I think the Sentry Stone will just gain Stealth.

[Zyrael]

Even in that form Bakemono the Sentry would have to be 1 pt... to HOPE to get taken. Cause it would have less uses than even the shifting stones, and be more on part with swamp gobbers. A def debuff isn't all that impressive with the MAT's our faction boasts.... and the MAT 5 mannikin still having to hit.

I have every faith in the world in DC and Soles. They are brilliant. Look at how awesome the final Kromac is! But they haven't even winked toward the sentry stone. Maintaining full faith in their creative talents, I know that sometimes it's easier just to "be rid of" a model or ability that created too many groans.

[Bakemono]

Even in that form Bakemono the Sentry would have to be 1 pt... to HOPE to get taken. Cause it would have less uses than even the shifting stones, and be more on part with swamp gobbers. A def debuff isn't all that impressive with the MAT's our faction boasts.... and the MAT 5 mannikin still having to hit.

Oh I don't know. I tested it with the things I'm guessing above and I was able to make ample use of it. I would pay 3pts. With Stealth I was able to keep it alive and use it as a proper artillery unit and the debuff (Root attack as I wrote it) was useful enough in stalling approaching threats that I could intercept them prior to impact. Bear in mind, the way I wrote it the Debuff goes off automatically against models it is in base to base with when it destroys itself. That includes hard to hit Warcasters/Warlocks.


I have every faith in the world in DC and Soles. They are brilliant. Look at how awesome the final Kromac is! But they haven't even winked toward the sentry stone. Maintaining full faith in their creative talents, I know that sometimes it's easier just to "be rid of" a model or ability that created too many groans.

I disagree here. I think they did wink at it. If you go back to the threads and discussion on the Woldwarden when all that was hot and active, Mr. Soles personally took part and engaged us on the notion of having them create forest. He was talking about the Sentry Stone at that time too. It wasn't forgotten. I think it is clear we havent' heard a thing about it because they are doing internal testing after rewriting the thing from the ground up. The shift in Woldwardens has in turn caused a massive change in the Sentry Stone, not a minor tweak. That is why it hasn't popped up in the updates. This is my guess, however, as I am not privy to any inside information. I am basing it on educated guesses from the context of posts by Mr. Soles and the volume of posts from we, the players.

[Dragonowar]

I really hope they improve it in some fashion. I have already submitted feedback on it and my opinion hasn't changed since I last feedbacked it. Neither has my experience with it.

[Dantes]

Starting to get very frustrated with this. 4 updates and not a single word about this unit from PP. There have been a slew of decent ideas on how to fix and still nothing.

I can't help but get the feeling it's gone the way of "We've already got your money from this model so why do we need to make it good?"

I've already taken them out of my case at this point and am wary of making any other purchases. It just eats at me to think about buying something that in a few weeks could be rendered a paper weight.

[bushman101]

PP has already said there isn't going to be anymore updates.

All we can do is test and give feedback

[pinkpantie]

Sorry guys but I have heard that PP simply lost the original casting mold and is to ashamed to admit it, so now they are just trying to let the Stones be forgotten and get away with it, they are even sponsoring events at which you secretly destroy you Stones, so no evidence will remain.
I will never forget you beloved Stones!! PP I know what you did last summer!

[Thracy11]

Bakemono: VERY interesting idea. Take away it's forest generation ability, give it back some form of debuff and it's survivability.

After all, why should EVERY circle army be given the ability to create forests anywhere they want? We already do that with Baldur and the Woldwarden / lolWatcher.

If you want forests on demand, you're going to have to take either of those choices. Interesting. I like it.

Would anyone object to his, I wonder? If the stone was made into a spray/debuff machine at the cost of its forests.


Even in that form Bakemono the Sentry would have to be 1 pt... to HOPE to get taken. Cause it would have less uses than even the shifting stones, and be more on part with swamp gobbers. A def debuff isn't all that impressive with the MAT's our faction boasts.... and the MAT 5 mannikin still having to hit.
Zyrael: What if it were an armour debuff? One of the aspects of nature is it's ability to "corrode" (breakdown) anything it wants. Or even just the speed debuff would be good enough, dont you think? Makes grunts for free, keeps the same command range, gains a bit more toughness (whatever form this needs to be in), loses forests but gains grunt activation on creation?

[Zyrael]

if a root like effect from the mannikins made an armor debuff... then yes it would get taken. No doubt, that fills in a faction wide weakness.