My feedback ...

[Scalpel]

To be honest I sit here thinking how many sweeping changes will Skorne see again? I expect none to be the answer. I think we are at the stage where at best we will get a few tweaks to a spell, ability or feat, and nothing more.

This is a list of changes that I feel are needed to make Skorne fun and/or competitive again. Everyone seems to have their own view on what they want, or thinks good/bad ... so these are just mine. Doesn't mean I'm right or wrong, just my views.

I don't think we are going to get the faction as a whole re-looked at, so these are intended as bullet points more than a whole indepth discussion on each model/unit.

- = Reduce Effectiveness
+ = Improve Effectiveness
~ = Same level Effectiveness, just a change.

Morghoul
- Lose Abuse.
+ Gain Incite or Manifest Destiny.

Epic Morghoul
- Lose Flesh Hooks.
+ Gain Shadow Pack (or any other battle group spell that would give him more character than a just a super solo)

Makeda
~ Feat needs reworking, or she needs Stay Death as well.

Epic Makeda
- Leash needs limiting to 4"
- Road to Ward needs limiting to Full Advance or Runs only.
+ Feat needs a major buff/reworking, models need to be able at least attack.

Hexeris
~ Death March is unoriginal ... needs re-working, otherwise we have 2 Warlocks who do the whole vengeance army trick, which means it gets old fast.
+ Ashes to Ashes to be replaced with Eruption of Spines. Fire Attacks have no fluff relevance in Skorne, in addition a Fury 4 Spell on Warcaster with 8+ Focus is fine, but not so great on a 7 Fury one.

Xerxis
- Lose Inhospitable Ground
+ Gain Transference, Tactical Supremacy, Watcher, Deflection, or Crusader's Call.

Zaal
~ Change Last Stand to something better, make it an offensive against enemy units, or change it completely to something that's worth killing my own models, or that doesn't kill them. In addition it should not provide Feat Tokens, as its an easy way to get them when you want them.

Mordikaar
~ Hollow needs reworking. Not sure to what, however something like: Lose Tough, lose the Fury from it, keep fearless, and gain Terror & +1 DEF - no idea TBH just a suggestion. But it needs re-working, because it's a mess of a spell combined with Void Lord
~ Void Lord is fine, when compared to 3 Fury/Focus spells that effect Control Area ... Hollow can only effect a max 2 units per turn.

Krea
- Lose Flank*
+ Gains +1 RAT

Drake
+ Gain Leadership [Krea] Friendly Krea's while in the model command range on this Warbeast gains +2 To Melee Attack and Damage Rolls.*

* This change is to reduce the damage from +1 D6 to just +2 ... to balance that he only needs to be within 6" instead of in melee of target.

Shaman
+ Animus needs to be worth casting more often than 1 in 20 games.

Savage
+ Needs a small buff to make him worth the 5pts.

Molik Kharn
~ Chieftain [Cyclops] - I like Gorshade's idea that its changed to Beast Master, or maybe they can use his MAT instead. THR and CMD is a little pointless, and with the Shaman you get all odd things with him casting other Warbeast Animi's.
+ Still doesn't feel like an 11pts heavy warbeast. Ok he is never going to be a Mulg in wounds, because that would be silly ... but intuition alone isn't enough imho.

Titan Bronzeback
- Leadership [Titans]: Lose the -1 SPD, gain May cast their animus for free instead.

Titan Gladiator
- Loses Follow Up
- Train Wreck is returned the previous version.
+ Gains +1 SPD

Titan Cannoneer
+ Diminish increased to 3"

Rhinodon
- Reduce STR by -1.
+ Change Animus to Furious: SELF, 2 Fury. Boosted melee attack rolls against Warrior models.

Arcuarii
~ Move Weapon Master from the Melee Attack to the Ranged Attack.

Immortals
- Lose Resonance
+ Gain +1 SPD

Ferox
+ Gains Hunter.


I'm still undecided on the Extoller and AG at the moment, and trying to get more games in before giving my final verdict. Mostly everything else is close enough for now.

[Zaqir]

I agree with your Morghoul thoughts.

I agree with your Makeda thoughts.

Hexeris I don't agree, several factions have the same abilities across casters etc.

Also I despise your 4 fury/focus spell argument, several casters have spells that cost 4 focus/fury and don't have 8+ power to spend.

Xerxis: Inhospitable ground is fine but he just can't put it far enough sadly.


Zaal: I know you hate last stand, I agree it needs some sort of change.

Mordikaar: I don't know if getting +1 def for becomming undead is cool, but does undead immediately mean you cause fear? if not what if it did that? So not only do you boost your guys with void lord, but with less access to fearless these days perhaps it might be good in that regard?


Krea and Drake: Bang on, your ideas are right in that area. I like the idea of models boosting other models and sort of charging them for it, but with the krea you might be paying something for an ability to rely on another model etc and that seems so bleh.


Shaman: You are 100% correct.

Savage: Maybe just a PS increase?

Molik: I think just make him 10 pts at this point.

Titan Bronzeback: They wont ever do the free animus, but maybe reduce it by 1 point instead?

Gladiator: its fine right now for 8 points!

Rhinodon: I just think he needs his horn AP attack again.

Arcuraii: I guess this is ok, I know your thoughts on wanting them to be more ranged centric then the Cetratii.

Immortals: Might as well, but I think they should get something else maybe resistance to elemental damages or something.

Ferox: Fine I guess.

[Blasterbonatti]

I can only comment on the stuff I've used, but from what you've said (and I've feedbacked on this):

pMakeda: Would love it if she had "stay death" but I've never had a problem with her feat (yes even against very experienced players)

Zaal: Haven't tried him since the new update so can't comment really but Last Stand seems ok to me, even if it is a big sacrifice for a random bonus. Doubleing ST instead of boosted damge would be much more reliable. The fact it can help out with your feat offsets this though. I likes it. Changing it to an offensive spell would be bent as hell! Especially if the shaman doesn't change again.

Xerxis: His weakness lies in infantry. They can hit his pathetic DEF on average most of the time and just plink him to death so he needs +1 DEF to offset this liklihood a bit. He also doesn't have much in the way of dealing with it when he gets into that situation so I'd like to see smite gone and replaced with thresher. His battle plans are nice, but the 5" RNG means he has to stay up the front and I'm not happy with this due to the other points noted. They can go if need be. I know it's not fair to compare to WM but look at the Butcher, he's Khador's Xerxis and is amazingly better, and cheaper! Full Throttle on Xerxis would KICK *** and make his army less fragile (run lots of beasts but not to full effect, or run a couple and try to keep them alive)

Arcuarii: At the moment I'd much rather just find the extra point and take Cetrati. I don't think simply moving weapon master to their ranged would do it for me. They really need +1 RAT and possibly one of the following:

1) RNG of Arcus extended to 10" (just call it an arcus and not a harpoon)
2) Ability to drag large models with a CRA (min 3 man CRA to work)
3) Defensive Line or Set Defense
4) Assault
5) all of the above :D

and put their cost back up obviously, at the moment they may be cheap but they're pretty dull. CRAing lights is about all they can do well (well, better than Cetrati anyway) and most people won't let you get in a decent position to do that.

Rhinodon: Get rid of that bloody animus! It's nigh on useless. Get the old MK1 amuck back or change sudue to:

"Target friendly skorne model within 6". Enemy models beginning their activations within 3" of target model may not perform a charge during their activation".

Well that might be a bit good, but it needs SOMETHING done to it. I really don't want to have to sacrifice my rhino in order to stop a charge. Besides I can do that anyway but just running him in (which is a very silly thing to do)

Bronzeback: Again not used him since the new update but he changed to pretty much what I wanted (except reach on tusks! GO ON! PLEASE!!!!)

Gladiator: Love him. He's my big snuggly stomp-monster.

Shaman: get rid of the bone grinder abilities and drop him back to 4. I hate this guy being 5pts but he was a very useful 4pt beast. If he must stay at 5 then change his animus to affect enemy models too. At the moment you'll never see him in any list that isn't Zaal or Mordikaar.

Immortals: What's wrong with Resonance? It's fluffy and better (however less reliable) than +1spd.

edit: clarity, spelling, words missed. The usual.

[knightdrake]

Some good ideas and some more shooting in the foot. You have the list but no explaination why on them. What are they lacking or justifies these particular changes.

Like Immortals or Savage, what is your reasoning behind it.

[Zaqir]

Blasterbonatti: No offense but I think your Xerxis thoughts are a bit off base, Although I kind of seeing him have Berserk but in the fluff he is ultra disciplined so that does fit either and he is rather good now.

Knightdrake:

Here are my thoughts I don't know about Scalpel:

I wont try to speak for him. Although one of his arguments (the 4 focus/fury spell one) I do not think has any merit because you are not supposed to be using alot of spells for some casters (look at Vlad for example)

Anyway The Krea/Drake, they are supposed to have some sort of tandem but right now the bonus the krea gets is minimal and relies on the drake. I personally feel the drake should offer a bonus to the krea and it should feel like a bonus.

Right now Flank doesn't really do anything for the Krea to any extent and feels like a sandbag of an ability.


Immortals right now simply do not offer enough bang for the bug considering the other units you can bring to the table and the combo with the AG just doesn't do enough.

I think the AG is fine to some degree but the bonus the Immortals get for them is lackluster and really doesn't make anyone want to bring them.


Arcuraii and Cetratii are a weird thing, I compare them alot to MoW in Khador. Just at this point the Cetratii feel more usefull all around in that the Arcuraii don't bring enough to really ever justify them over the Cetratii.


Shaman's biggest problem is the Animus is as Scalpel says, it is used maybe 1 in 20 games if that, there are not enough debuffs that are placed upon units that make you really go "DAMN I wish i had the shaman now"

Now on the flipside alot of the changes people are asking for are also due to comparisons in other factions and even in my mind Scalpel has been an advocate for balanced change but every now and then there are hints of him trying to get some changes to make things top tier and I don't think that will happen.

Many people go, LOOK AT WHAT X in Circle or Legion can do, we should be able to do X+1 just because.

I do not know if that is the best way to go about things.

1)Pointing to other factions to get change in your own doesn't mean your own stuff is bad, it might be the other stuff is unbalanced.

2)People naturally would rather just have their stuff boosted then have other stuff balanced etc and it is a tricky thing to do combined with the wants and desires of people.

Everyone might want Xerxis to be 19 defense, 25 armor and ps 32 but really that wont happen, some guys try to be clever as well. I have seen posts where people say "Lower the str of cyclops and even Karn but raise the str of their weapons" In fact this is not a nerf because the cyclops might end up the same but its an attempt to be clever and try and boost Molik Karn maybe even in a small manner by improving his combo strike etc"

[Draekon Darkstorm]

Arcuarii getting the bonus damage die on ranged is ok, ONLY if you buff their RAT by at least 1 if not 2. I don't want to waste a weapon master attack on a RAT 5 model.

Draekon

[Cronix]

Zaal
~ Change Last Stand to something better, make it an offensive against enemy units, or change it completely to something that's worth killing my own models, or that doesn't kill them. In addition it should not provide Feat Tokens, as its an easy way to get them when you want them.


Zaal is ok, i am not a big fan of the self offerings that doesn't grand souls, and even if it granted souls the AG are kind of meh....

I think this guy needs Signs & Portents (proper horde name "Ancestors Guidance") and make his Kovaas more killy the template is not that impressive. Remove boddy counts template and give it a melee reach weapon with Killing Spree (that how a Kovaas must look like).

[Hasten]

Arcuarii getting the bonus damage die on ranged is ok, ONLY if you buff their RAT by at least 1 if not 2. I don't want to waste a weapon master attack on a RAT 5 model.

Draekon

If they switched Weapon Master to ranged, why on earth would you ever want to Drag anything closer? Anything they could kill with a weak melee attack is almost assuredly dead from the ranged Weapon Master hit. And if it isn't dead, you certainly don't want your expensive Weapon Master ranged unit tied up in melee!

-H

[Scalpel]

Some good ideas and some more shooting in the foot. You have the list but no explaination why on them.
There are plenty of threads and posts I've made giving the reasons for the list, I didn't want to repeat them all again.

Also ... there are some things that are too good, if we get all the boosts on the other stuff then the few nerf's will overall make the faction balanced. That's totaly different to "shooting ourself in the foot" ....


Xerxis: Inhospitable ground is fine but he just can't put it far enough sadly.
Isn't that a contradiction ? you say its fine but doesn't go far engough ... so therefore its not fine?


If they switched Weapon Master to ranged, why on earth would you ever want to Drag anything closer?
You can use the DRAG for other things other than just to hit them with the Melee unit on the Arcuarii ... You can set up slams, clear charge lanes, or pull something over so your Warlock can beat on it.

I see what you are saying, but there are uses for the DRAG ... however that won't happen if you don't hit or damage the model in the first palce. Even 2-3 on a CRA can atm fail to wound an ARM 18-19 Light Jack on some lowish rolls.

[kantoboy]

I'd be really ticked off if they reduced RTW to advance and runs only. Specially if they aren't giving the pain giver's speed buff back. Titan armies are sooo slow without it, and right now if I want to run a herd, eMakeda is my warlock.

Lots of games I feel the expensive cataphracts and so-so troops are worth it solely because of the skorne's ability to make them speedy. So removing that extra speed on the charge would make eMakeda's spell list feel a little weak, specially if it costs 3 fury.

[Mnkylord]

Morghoul
I agree. I used to love Abuse, but as it stands now, it's a terrible spell. Either put it back, or give us something else that's useful.

Epic Morghoul
Yeah, I agree.

Makeda
I think her feat is mostly ok, but there needs to be a mechanism there to bring back troops even if the unit is destroyed. Stay Death would be fine, I guess, but it does blur the distinction between her and eMakeda.

Epic Makeda
I think limiting leash to 4" defeats the purpose of the spell.

and RtW is one of the scant few things in the army now that grant a bonus to our charge movement. I could not abide taking that away! :P

Agree the Feat needs a little help.

Hexeris
Yeah, not a huge fan of Death March as it is right now.
Agreed on Ashes to Ashes. And personally, I thought Death Knell was a MUCH cooler spell.

Xerxis
Even with his limited control range, I'd prefer Inhospitable Ground to the options you listed here, except maybe Crusader's Call, which is useful, and would be fluffy for Xerxis anyway.

Zaal
Really disagree here. I think the entire *point* of Last Stand is to give the player some control over the number of feat tokens in Zaal's pool.

Mordikaar
Disagree. Hollow + Void Lord is an excellent spell that helps Mordikaar be an effective, top tier caster. And to be honest, I think if Void Lord were able to affect more than 2 units per turn, it would start to be OP.

Krea & Drake
Agreed!

Shaman
Yup. His animus isn't terrible. It's just not very useful very often. If it dispelled upkeeps on an enemy model/unit, now we're talking. I say

- Drop Craft Talisman
- Drop the range of Evil Eye to 8.
~ Different Animus (not sure what)
+ Give him an ability that, when forced, can Channel Spells?

Savage
Yeah, I liked the idea of his animus also granting a +2 (or even just +1) to melee attacks. I think that would be solid.

Molik Kharn
Yup, I really like the Chieftain [Cyclops] idea.
I dunno... He's really fast, really good in combat, and with Chieftain[Cyclopse], I think would be worth the 11 point price tag. Maybe a light 11 points, but certainly too heavy for 10.

Titan Bronzeback
Eh, I dunno. I like his leadership ability as is.

Titan Gladiator
No, I like the TG as is. Especially Follow Up as an innate ability. But I really would like to see the Beast Handlers given the ability to up charge speeds again.

Titan Cannoneer
Yes. Would definitely prefer to see a better range on Diminish. I still haven't ever used his animus.

Rhinodon
Auto boosting attacks on his Thresher tail attacks would be a little over the top. I'd rather see him get Armor Piercing for his horn again, perhaps limited to charge attacks.

EDIT: Actually, in hindsight, autoboosting the thresher tail attacks isn't so bad, really. I think my concern would be when his animus is used by someone else, like Morghoul or Xerxis. Then it might get a little out of hand. I'll need to think about that some more...

Arcuarii
Disagree. Otherwise, why bother dragging? They just become Ballistas with legs. I say:
~ +1 RAT, -1 MAT
~ Return some variation Hog Tie that requires 2 or 3 additional models to participate in a CRA to work. (requiring three models to hit and damage is too much against most large based, heavy models)

Immortals
Eh, I'd rather they maintain some level synergy with the AG. Perhaps those abilities should move to the AG, though. I would like them to have Tough, though. Even if it does hinder Vengeance somewhat.

Ferox
Not too shabby, I could certainly deal with that.

[Deathraven]

@Scalpel:

Morghoul
I like your idea (incite would be better as the name is more appropriate). I'd also like to swap torment for occultation as offensive spells on fury5=bad.

Epic Morghoul
Agreed.

Makeda
I'm fine with her as is but I have no problem with your idea.

Epic Makeda
I'm not sure if BOTH her movement spells need a nerf but one does. Agreed on the feat.

Hexeris
Agreed on ashes to ashes but I like the current deathmarch.

Xerxis
I'm fine with how he is but your idea is good too.

Zaal
Have not tested him much so I won't comment

Mordikaar
I think void lord is a good ability and I like it's interaction with hollow, but I think it needs to be restricted in some way to prevent people cycling hollow and getting the benefit on two units.

Krea
I agree

Drake
I'd rather forget about trying to turn the Basalisks into some sort of faux melee combo. He's already great value with it.

Shaman
I think it's fine as is.

Savage
Agreed but it's hard to find an appropriate buff.

Molik Kharn
I'm fine with cyclops chieftain but this I agree with: "Still doesn't feel like an 11pts heavy warbeast. Ok he is never going to be a Mulg in wounds, because that would be silly ... but intuition alone isn't enough imho."

Titan Bronzeback
Fine as is.

Titan Gladiator
Fine as is, or lose grand slam for slams at +2" movement.

Titan Cannoneer
I'd like the diminsh range back but he is already worth 9 so fine either way.

Rhinodon
Really not keen on seeing his damage output go below an axer. I like your animus though.

Arcuarii
Fine as is. No point having drag if you either kill on the shot or drag in something you can't hurt in melee.

Immortals
Fine as is.

Ferox
Fine as is.

Extoller
Eyeless sight effecting units.

AG
Not sure he's quite there but needs more testing.

[Scalpel]

I'd be really ticked off if they reduced RTW to advance and runs only ... So removing that extra speed on the charge would make eMakeda's spell list feel a little weak, specially if it costs 3 fury.
You do realise it was Advance or Run only in Mk1 and it was still cast almost every turn ? ... ofc then it effected eMakeda too ... so that would need to be fixed back.

The reason I feel it should not be on charges is that it really does make her one of the most powerfull casters we have. +2" on every move, including charges, slam's, and Tramples is totally awesome.

Combined with Leash you can get crazy distances on Molik ... it was worse when you could Enrage him.

We can't have a better feat and a better abilties for her ... AND keep RtW the same as it is now.

IMHO she now has 2 of the best spells (both singular and in combination) in the game ... well at least Hordes. If we want a better feat (or one that actaully feels like it's game winning) then something will need to give.

Feel free to disagree and discuss ... but I can feel it in my bones when a nerf is incoming (see Molik), and I'm again trying to head it off so it get's changed to something we can live with, and not something we can't (again see Molik) ... ofc I'll just get all the blame again :p

[Scalpel]

Titan Bronzeback
Eh, I dunno. I like his leadership ability as is.

Titan Gladiator
No, I like the TG as is. Especially Follow Up as an innate ability. But I really would like to see the Beast Handlers given the ability to up charge speeds again.
If we get +2" on Charge/Slams back on the Paingivers, you will lose the BB leadership, and his SPD 5 will go back to 4 ... and most probably the TG will change downwards again.

It seems obvious PP thought the Titans were balanced and perfectly pointed before the change, so to gain A we had to lose B.

So asking to keep all the changes AND get back the old Enrage isn't going to happen, hence why I'm was suggesting these changes so that both Warbeasts are viable on their own ... or still in a pair ... and not just BB or the pair.

[OmegaLolrus]

You know, I love the idea of Molik Karn getting Beast Mastery as part of Chieftan. I feel like he's lacking a little bit...and I love the idea of better synergy with the other Cyclops.

[planescapedm]

Why would you submit any feedback for the gladiator? Gladiator is perfect as is. Giant Elephants, that only walk on 2 feet, not 4, and are wearing full platemail .... move at speed 4.

[Deathraven]

I notice this list does not include feedback on the paingivers. I thought you'd be asking for the old enrage back Scalpel?

[Draekon Darkstorm]

Arcuarii - The best fix I can find is to give them, +1RAT and Defensive Line. That would at least make them a little more survivable, and allow them to do something different than the Cetrati.

Draekon

[Draekon Darkstorm]

I still think we need to try and get some improvement done on Venators as well. Compared to the Mage Hunter Strike Force, I know which I would rather have for a full squad.

Draekon

[Donesh]

Instead of making a new thread I am going to post the feedback I intend to leave here. It doesnt have a the +/- but is more of a bulleted list. Its also been kicking around for a while, but I think I updated everything.

Master Tormentor Morghoul
*As a Master Tormentor he should be good with beasts. Gaining Pack
Hunter would help him tremendously with Beasts.
*He is not a very effective assassin. His schtick requires far too
many attack rolls to be very effective. Would recommend he lose
arcane assassin.
*Abuses compares poorly to other offensive beast buffs such as forced
evolution. Its drawback is very restrictive. This
drawback should simply be dropped.

Lord Assassin Morghoul
*He should be an effective Assassin. He has Vanish to set up a two
turn high risk assassination move. Currently he can also rush + press forward to try to walk up to a enemy warlock. Neither feel as effective as movement tricks that non-assassins have to kill casters, and tend to have more focus/fury to work with when they do so. I would like Pounce back but there are issues with the interaction with Rush/Press Forward.
*His spell list is somewhat of a mess. Without the Krea's debuff
applying the classic Death Warrant is both costly in fury, risky, and
far too likely to fail against high DEF models. The current Death Warrant is of little use except against camped/buffed casters. Death Warrant should
be reverted to its old form but simply not made an offensive spell.
Flesh Hooks should be dropped for Ghost Walk which is a replacement
for his Mk1 Shadow Walk.

Archdomina Makeda
*The potential to pop this feat and have it act only as a detriment is
crippling. Remove the restriction on body tokens and soul tokens.
*Inspiration is a poor ability, and few things are fearless in Mk2.
Should help her troops out in a another way.
*Melee potential is poor for a melee warlock.

Supreme Archdomina Makeda
*As a Cryx player Sudden Death is a bad spell. As an added bonus, Skorne have less viable targets for it. Makeda suffers heavily from a spell list that helps her army across
the field but doesnt do much for them once they get there. Replace Sudden Death with something that will actually help her army.
*Inspiration is a poor ability, and few things are fearless in Mk2.
Should help her troops out in a another way.
*Melee potential is poor for a melee warlock.

Lord Tyrant Hexeris
*Change Ashes to Ashes to Eruption of Spines. Eruption of Spines is far more appropriate for a warlock.
*Hollow should turn into a soul collection method for extra fury on the warlocks next turn. This
can be capped at a set amount if it proves to be too powerful. The extra fury from it have been worthless in games so far.

Tyrant Xerxis
*Defenders Ward pushes Xerxes farther from wanting to field
warbeasts. Armor of Karrak was also interesting as it gave Xerxis a
reason to field the Bronzeback over Molik Karn, at least before all the recent crazyness. Recommend bringing
this back but changing it to Target warbeast in this model's
battlegroup gains ARM equal to its FUR. This could also be replaced
with Batten down the Hatches.
*Much like Grissel as a master fell caller, as a master Tyrant Xerxis
should have better/different commands then the regular Tyrant
Commander.

Zaal
*Zaal depends heavily on AG's being worth their points. They arent.
*Last Stand is a bad spell. It comes at far too high a cost, and
denies soul tokens to the AG. Would recommend a DEF drop instead of
self destruction. It should boost the damage and add brutal charge instead of an extra die
to limit the potential with the feat. It would also synergize well
with Immortals.
*Sunder Spirit should allow the casting of the animus on hit not
damage.

Mordikaar
*Eldolon lost ability to steal STR. This has been a real loss of flavor.
*Hollow should turn into a soul collection method for extra fury on the warlocks next turn. This
can be capped at a set amount if it proves to be too powerful. The extra fury from it have been worthless in games so far.
*Lamentation is an annoying spell, and is not much fun in actual play
for either party. Swap this for Blight Field. This is a nerf, but
should allow buffs in other areas while still creating a positive game
experience.

Basilisk Drake:
*Animus is rarely used. Needs to be replaced.

Basilisk Krea:
*The Krea's animus used to be one of the cornerstones for Skorne.
There are several potential ways to bring back this debuff:
1.Change the Krea's current animus from targeting itself to targeting
a friendly faction model within 6?
2.Like an elemental troll have its ranged buff always on. Then change
its animus to a reduced Megaliths..

Cyclops Brute
*To make the animus usable in more situations remove the slam
reduction and add a 1 DEF buff to the animus. Still prevents
knockdown. This synergizes well with intuition, and adds potential
for more then just Morghoul lists.
*+1 MAT at the very least. Feels lackluster as a 5 point beast.

Cyclops Savage
*As the offensive Cyclops it is rather lacking in comparison to the
Brute. Increase its P+S to 14. It should gain Side Step. Karn
learned it from somewhere.
*The Savage animus is ineffective. Add a +1 to hit bonus on the animus as well.


Cyclops Shaman
*Spirit Blade is a rather limited animus. It requires an enemy upkeep
spell/animi be cast on a friendly target which is somewhat of a
rarity. The target then needs to be in a condition where expending
the resources to remove the upkeep spell is still worthwhile as well.
I would recommend this be replaced with Unbinding
*Drop the cost back down to 4. This may require the loss of Craft
Talisman.
*A potential buff would also be to have the Shaman increase the control area of the warlock in its battlegroup.

Bronzeback Titan
*Amuck on the Bronzeback is solid but really belongs on the Rhinodon.
*Berserk without amuck or reach on a beast with 3 base attacks is
really of questionable worth. Giving the Tusks reach allows Berserk
to work without increasing his threat range for heavier targets.
*With the switch of Rush now we need an 8 point beast to make the 10 point beast worthwhile instead of vice versa. Not really an improvement.
*Leadership giving +1 THR is bad.

Rhinodon
*Replace Subdue with Amuck. Subdue, especially in its current form is
a poor animus and doesnt match the theme of the Rhinodon. Amuck works
well with the Thresher attack and its 3 base attacks.
*Give the Rhino back its horn. Let it work only on charges as a
special action. P+S 10 Armor Piercing

Titan Cannoneer
*The animus now will effectively only help itself. This is another
part of the debuff abilities Skorne had that are now neutered.
Recommend increasing its range to 3? or 4?.

Titan Gladiator
*Rush is a fine animus but is a poor replacement for the paingiver nerf that has not netted positive change elsewhere.

Molik Karn
*Mk1 Karn was potent both offensively and defensively. He now feels
like a mess.
*+1 DEF, -1 Armor and drop Intuition for being able to be forced for
Star Crossed. Intuition is poor in how well it protects Karn, its
interference in fury leaching, and its reduction in his offensive
potential.
*Side Step has shown potential in games played. It shouldn't trigger on friendly models killed as this allows him to easily bounce into position for a caster kill.

Cataphrasct Arcuarii
*Overcosted even at 6/9. As a drilled Military Unit in heavy armor
Defensive Line is appropriate. They should also be experts with their
weapons, so a RAT increase to 6 is in order.

Cataphract Cetrati
*I find games without Cetrati to end poorly for Skorne. At their
current cost they are a worse version of Trollkin Champions. They
don't have two weapon master attacks, don't have tough and are
required to have the shieldwall order to maintain armor 20.
*As a drilled military unit they should know how to hold their spears
for a set defense.

Immortals
*SPD 4 is far too slow, even if it can be boosted with an Ancestral
Guardian. Recommend bumping this to 5. They would move as fast as
other heavy armor small based infantry.
*As an elite unit which is made up of mini-Ancestral Guardians they
should have a better MAT then 6. Recommend bumping this to 7.
*For a unit with Vengeance they are far too easy to kill. Defensive
Line feels appropriate here as well.

Paingiver Bloodrunners
*With the nerf to the Tyrant Commander bump their SPD back up to 7.

Paingiver Beast Handlers
*Return the SPD boost to enrage. Don't let it stack with other SPD
boosts. Skorne melee beasts are just designed to work with this, and havent changed enough to reflects its loss.
*Potentially allow multiple Medicates to work. There is a huge
discrepancy between jack repairing capabilities and beast healing
capabilities.

Praetorian Ferox
*As an elite Praetorian unit MAT 6 doesn't cut it. Recommend bumping
the MAT to 7. Even this doesn't feel like enough as cheaper Circle
Wolf Riders simply outperform this heavy cav.

Praetorian Karax
*As Praetorians they should have SPD6, DEF 13, and MAT 6. Because
they are carrying a shield they should have one higher armor then
other Praetorians.
*They are a unit with spears in a trained military but don't know how
to set them. They should have set defense.
*Girded is of questionable worth. It can be dropped.
*As a comparison the min unit of Houseguard Halberdiers cost the same
amount. In comparison to the Karax they have +1 Def, +1 MAT, Brutal
Charge, and Set Defense. They dont have Girded. There armor stat even
makes sense as they have one higher armor then houseguard without
shields.

Praetorian Swordsmen
*fine

[Donesh]

Had to split this up into 2 posts...

Praetorian Swordsman Officer & Standard
*Ranked Attack is of questionable worth. It also overlaps with the
Karax specialty. Recommend switching it for something else.

Tyrant Command & Standard Bearer
*Currently its Battle Plans are lack luster. Reveille is particularly
bad in a faction which doesn't have tough built in. Replace reveille
with Hero's Tragedy. This is a strong control ability and is sorely
lacking in Mk2 Skorne. Hero's Tragedy should only effect non-warlock/
warcaster warrior models.

Venator Reivers
*Overcosted with a full unit. Drop their Cost to 5/8.
*They wear heavier armor then a Praetorian but have a significantly
lower armor. Up armor to at least 14 preferably 15.
*Add Covering Fire as an order. They are a drilled military and
should know how to protect their fellows as they advance.

Venator Catapult Crew
*They wear heavier armor then a Praetorian but have a significantly
lower armor. Up armor to at least 14 preferably 15.
*Give them the Venator Guns.

Agonizer
*Maddening is of little value. Recommend replacing it with an anti-
infantry ability.

Ancestral Guardian
*This doesn't perform at the level of a 3 point solo even when it is
full of souls. Either buff its damage output, have it provide a buff
for troopers in its CMD, or lower its cost. This is even after the boost to P+S13. A AG with 3 souls on the charge should be able to kill a single Champ.
*For buffing its damage give it auto-boosted damage and drop Brutal
Charge. This prevents 4 dice of damage on the charge like weapon
master.
*Currently don't serve any niche in the skorne forces. They can't
damage heavy infantry or beasts/jacks. The Totem Hunter is a better
solo hunter. The Master Tormentor is a better single wound killer.

Extoller Soulward
*Currently the gun on the Soulward outshines both of its magical
abilities. Its a buffer which should use its gun only if forced to. This was only made worse in the recent update.

Paingiver Bloodrunner Master Tormentor
*Increase SPD back to 7. With the nerf of the Tyrant Commander there
is no reason this shouldnt happen.

Void Spirit
*If the Void Spirit fails to kill its target it suffers heavily. This
sadly happens far too often. A second attack would help this.
*Prowl would work well with its ability to make clouds so it may survive a turn after attacking.
*The armor debuff is missing from Skorne. Dropping the P+S to
10 for Dark Shroud.

Tyrant Rhadeim
*Veteran leader is an annoying finicky ability.

[Earthcrosser599]

Archdomina Makeda
*Melee potential is poor for a melee warlock.

Supreme Archdomina Makeda
*Melee potential is poor for a melee warlock.


Melee potential is nonexistent for a melee warlock.

[Citizen_Nutter]

Bravo! Nice ideas Donesh.

Only things I'd question are bringing back Enrage in its original form. I'd hate to think I could never consider dropping them so our beasts should simply enjoy self buffs to avoid the future problem of "well, they rock with handlers therefore they should suffer this and that". We risk never ever receieving a fast beast because of the cheap cost of Paingivers.

And can we keep Lamentation...at least for anther week? I havent had time to make my friends cry in frustration yet /sad face.

[Solarhaphaeriom]

I agree with most of the ideas in Donesh's second post, except that Reveille is nice with Hollow, and Venators don't need ARM15.

First post more mixed.
I don't think our warlocks need the help suggested, except Zaal and that eMorghoul's spell list needs looking at.

Agree with Krea suggestion, would also help with her lousy RAT. Agree that Savage could use +1 STR. BB needs a little work to be worth +2 points vs Gladiator. Shaman's animus should be Offensive as well; it is hard enough to hit with. Diminish should be 3". Otherwise beasts are fine.

Arcuarii need +1 RAT, maybe +1 ARM. Immortals need either MAT7 or a tad more survivability. Paingivers NO NOT need speed buff back, that's what handicapped our heavies. Bloodrunners +1 SPD. Karax need SPD6, MAT6 OR DEF13; all three would make them too good at the same cost as Swordsmen, but currently they're a bit too gimped. Otherwise units are fine.

[planescapedm]

Titan Bronzeback
- Leadership [Titans]: Lose the -1 SPD, gain May cast their animus for free instead.




GJ on losing us the SPD. Giving you credit for this one, but I'm sure there were others who helped you.

[AlGouhti]

GJ on losing us the SPD. Giving you credit for this one, but I'm sure there were others who helped you.

Not gonna come up with any explanation other than it felt wrong having to take the BB every time you wanted to play with the Gladiator.
However what we got in exchange feels even more outlandish on the BB.

[Scalpel]

GJ on losing us the SPD. Giving you credit for this one, but I'm sure there were others who helped you.
Yeah no worries ... anything else you want to take out of context?

If you read the WHOLE post you see I wanted to give the TG +1 SPD which balances out the need to take the BB.

Get a life.

[Zaqir]

I still think we need to try and get some improvement done on Venators as well. Compared to the Mage Hunter Strike Force, I know which I would rather have for a full squad.

Draekon


You are doing the thing that everyone does, they take a totally favorable comparison to their argument.

OF COURSE you would take the mage hunter strike force! Do you not think there are things the Retribution players would take from you.

I think the Venators high end cost should be 8 not 9 to be honest.

Look at Venators vs Long Gunners! Straight up they are a decent comparison etc. Now the flipside is that Cygnar can help those long gunners a bit more but you don't know what Skorne might get later on etc.

Part of the balance issue is that folks are so focussed on trying to make direct comparisons and not leaving room for things to improve in future releases with weapon attachments and uas etc.

[kantoboy]

Part of the balance issue is that folks are so focussed on trying to make direct comparisons and not leaving room for things to improve in future releases with weapon attachments and uas etc.

Eh? Isnt that what balanced is about? compare similarly priced units and they should roughly approximate each other in power vis a vis the point cost. Give or take the faction strengths and weaknesses?

[Zaqir]

This is Part 1 to my response to Donesh


A few things. (Once again I am being devils advocate but my arguments are really towards balance considerations and to point out the fact that some people are not looking at the big overall picture in terms of the game, IE not everything should be cut and dried, choices/risk etc should be a part of the game to avoid it being stale)

1)Assassinations should not be "SURE THINGS", Also I hate how everyone HATES Arcane Assassin when it was a very in demand power a few weeks back.

Just because Abuse is not the best buff doesn't mean it should automatically be changed, not everyone can have the best buff.

2)Makeda: Would like to hear some ideas you have for her because all you said was "Her ability is poor improve it" so some suggestions would be nice.

3)The Ashes to Ashes comment you make bothers me because it just isn't honest. What does far more appropriate mean? Just come out and say Eruption of spines is a BETTER SPELL! It costs less, has more range and does the same thing except it might kill your own troops where Ashes to Ashes wont. Just be honest instead of trying to find a round about way.

4)Defender's Ward on Xerxis is nice lol, leave it alone. I agree about his orders, they should be different.

5)The whole AG not being worth the points thing is silly for Zaal. Compared to all the 3 point solos in WM/H he is middle of the pack in effectiveness but goes up when considering synergy with things like Immortals and Zaal.

6)You are somewhat correct on Mordikaar losting the Eidolon STR thing is a bit bleh.

The comments about Lamentation are true but its almost a spell you hate to use but can't deny that it can be a help in the right situations. Lamentation right now for instance can totally screw Vlad.

7) I agree with the Drake, and the Krea having Target 6inches would be good also.

8)The Brute for what it does is great, people forget how good Shield Guard can be.

9)Your Savage argument doesn't hold water, I might agree with PS 14, but the whole Karn must have learned sidestep from them is bunk. Maybe he is the chieftain because he can do what others cannot, maybe he developped it on his own which makes him better then a savage, not the other way around.

10)Shaman arguements are bang on.

11)Your BB comments make no sense, he has amuch now and he has berserk he is rather good. Rush is a bonus and I think after testing you will find that rush being on the Gladiator is great.

Once again the whole THR boost being bad thing is a joke. At the start of the field test people would argue that this kind of boost would be amazing cause of the lower THR, once again people don't even care about the weaker frenzy cause its too easy to mitigate things now but it lets you run extra hot if you so choose to benefit from it with less risk that is not a BAD thing, that just isn't as good as what you want it to be.

12)Agree on the horn, the rhinodon getting amuck would piss off folks at this point I think.

13) Gladiator is amazing, don't touch. Your Cannoneer thoughts make sense.

14)In MK1 Molik Karn wasn't "Potent" he was simple OVER POWERED. Is he top tier for 11 pts? NOPE, but is he damn usefull, ya he is and the attempts to just make him this unhittable killing machine make no sense to me.

15) Arcuarii at Rat 6 doesn't seem so bad.

16) Cetratii may be a worse unit then trollkin champions but they are a better unit then many things. Its also debatable how much worse off they are, you might like the more offensive nature of the Champs with 2 attacks but the Cetratii have the CMA and Reach and thats not a bad thing.

17) The immortals is a tricky thing, I think they should get Touch or resistance to various damage types.

18)Bloodrunners at 7 is ok also in my book.

19) Beast handlers, the +2 spd on enrage made it so they just didn't have SLOW beasts and guess what, that doesn't fly, Sure khador can boost up their spd 4 jacks with boundless charge but guess what, that cost focus and you couldn't do it to 3 or 4 beasts for FREE without using all of your magic ability. Also all their other abilities and the fact that beasts can just be healed by warlocks as well and you want them to heal as well as mechaniks especially since Beast Handlers don't have to even make CHECKS etc. Tell you what, let the beast handlers potential fail their checks then boost their healing, until then, think of balance.

20)Ferox are fine as they are and if you want to make sure to hit take Rhadiem who gives them a boost and frankly he is awesome anyway so I don't think you would complain.

21)The karax and your arguments that everything with spears should have set defense combined with your ability to look at a situation and pick the most favorable comparison for your argument makes for good debate but does little else since other comparisons could be made.

This concludes Part 1 of my response to Donesh.

[Zaqir]

Eh? Isnt that what balanced is about? compare similarly priced units and they should roughly approximate each other in power vis a vis the point cost. Give or take the faction strengths and weaknesses?

Except for the fact that for a game to have some variety somethings in some areas are better then some things in other areas.

To take a small sample and just say my X unit is weaker then the best unit of this type is not valid because there could be another example in the army where situations are reversed etc.

So saying Venators are worse then Mage Hunters etc is just not valid because something in Retribution elsewhere is most likely worse then something in skorne or in other armies.

[XerxisLord]

Master Tormentor Morghoul - Seems solid now and I like the fact that abuse was change back to its prevous form. The only think he need is a good battle group spell. while arcane assassin is good I don't think he really needs it, I would prefer if he had Admonition as a passive ability that can be used once per turn instead of a spell, and give him a spell like havoc or a better upkeep warbeast spell.

Lord Assassin Morghoul - I think he should lose flesh hook and gain a ranged weapon like a throwing knife that is a magical weapon and give him a upkeep spell like Mirage 3 6 ? ? Yes No
Target friendly Faction model/unit gains Apparition. (During your Control Phase, place models with Apparition anywhere completely within 2˝ of their current locations. If Mirage affects a unit, only models in formation can be placed.)
This will give him more stuff to use with units. Replace flash blade with a hordes version of wind rush and call it shadow step.This would make him feel like a true assassin caster imagine face an army the vanishs right in front of your eye . (And these changes won't make him OTT)

Archdomina Makeda - Solid i won't change a thing on her

Supreme Archdomina Makeda - Solid spell list finally the only think I would change is give her parry and make Stay Death a free once per turn ability then she is good to go
P.S I love her new feat

Lord Tyrant Hexeris - he's cool but needs a few changes Death march still just does not seem to fit him now I would say change it to this
Death March 2 6 ? ? Yes No
Target friendly model/unit gains + 2 STR, ARM, and Vengeance but suffers -2 DEF. (During your Maintenance Phase, if one or more models in a unit with Vengeance were destroyed or removed from play by enemy attacks during your opponent's last turn, each model in the unit can advance 3˝ and
make one normal melee attack.)
This would make death march is signature spell. Next change ash to ash to a hordes version either Eruption of spine since its the same thing with 1 less cost, or make a unique version for him.

Tyrant Xerxis - Not much to say here very solid nothing to really complain about except the fact that IHG cost 3 on a fury 5 warlock and his 10" control area does not do justice for him either but this can be worked out since everything else on him is solid.

Supreme Aptimus Zaal - dont know what to say here he still up for debate but has some solid parts to him so he might need the most test out of any of our casters right now, but his spell list is rather solid. I think he's mostly lacking on the ability side of things.

Void Seer Mordikaar - This guy is solid and very fun to play the change to hollow was the right way to go for balance reasons. Void lord make him solid but not OP. so I think he should stay as is till the end of the FT. He is the one caster that make our ranged unit a solid fighting force and worth playing.

Basilisk Drake - solid for his point cost

Basilisk Krea - solid ( and im not sure but did her range attack just get better)?

Cyclops Brute - Solid no changes needed he does what hes supposed to do.

Cyclops Savage - solid but may need a STR buff of +1 and have Prescience cost 1 less or change it to Grant +1 STR and MT to 1 model and cost 1 ( basically a reverse Tenacity).

Cyclops Shaman - I would say keep him as is but give him a something like a ability to channel or force warbeast in his command range.

Bronzeback Titan - Give him Hyper Aggressive and Overtake then he will be solid.

Rhinodon - give him his crit AP horn back and change subdue and he will also be very solid then after that.

Titan Cannoneer - solid but Diminish has definely been diminished increase its range to 3 or 4" then I think that would be good.

Titan Gladiator - solid does not need any more changes love this guy now.

Molik Karn - Just does not scream character beast any more and is not worth his points. I would say give him something like set defense and reversal and he would be good as the grappler of the charater models.

Cataphract Arcuarii - finally worth there points these guy are solid with mordikaar and thats all that matters.

Cataphract Cetrati - solid as always

Immortals - just make these guy ARM 17 and we have a deal. Their made of stone so why not.

Paingiver Bloodrunners - Solid

Paingiver Beast Handlers - still solid since we have other ways to speed up beasts now.

Praetorian Ferox - love these guys the solid

Praetorian Karax - cheap and effective these guys are solid for how little they cost.

Praetorian Swordsmen - same as karax cheap and effective.

Praetorian Swordsman Officer & Standard - solid

Tyrant Commander & Standard Bearer - Still good solid and playable

Venator Reivers - good for their point cost but their arm should go back up to 13.

Venator Catapult Crew - need some ability so that its not just a weak Khador Mortar. I would say give the grunts the reiver ranged gun then we have a deal.

Agonizer - Solid

Ancestral Guardian - just give him a P+S 15 weapon and leave every thing else the same. Ancestral guardian's should repesent the finest of our lost warriors.

Extoller Soulward - good but she needs a ROF 2 whey have soul that you can spend to make extra attacks if you have a ROF 1.

Paingiver Bloodrunner Master Tormentor - Solid our version of the MHA except for troops.

Void Spirit - I would say give him 2 attack, and a 3" place version of void leap.

Tyrant Rhadeim - solid

These is how I see our model should be to make all of them fun and usable.

[tensteam]

So saying Venators are worse then Mage Hunters etc is just not valid because something in Retribution elsewhere is most likely worse then something in skorne or in other armies.
I don't think anyone is asking Venators to be as good as Mage Hunters, but instead saying that those aren't strong enough as they are now. BTW wasn't it your point that there are no units in the game that share the same range and pow and still cost less than 1 point per model? At least you could admit that there are and those units have also other abilities to make those a lot over the top.

So the point is that it is acceptable that some units aren't as good as the best ones in the game, but those should still be at least roughly at competitive level. Otherwise you'll never see those units in competitive play and then what's the point to even make those models? This is about Karax as Swordsmen are clearly superior in almost anything.

I'd like to know which Skorne models you are thinking are the absolute top. You seem to be content with our key models like AG to stay mediocre or weak so there has to be something clearly over the top we have?

[Zaqir]

Had to split this up into 2 posts...

Praetorian Swordsman Officer & Standard
*Ranked Attack is of questionable worth. It also overlaps with the
Karax specialty. Recommend switching it for something else.

Tyrant Command & Standard Bearer
*Currently its Battle Plans are lack luster. Reveille is particularly
bad in a faction which doesn't have tough built in. Replace reveille
with Hero's Tragedy. This is a strong control ability and is sorely
lacking in Mk2 Skorne. Hero's Tragedy should only effect non-warlock/
warcaster warrior models.

Venator Reivers
*Overcosted with a full unit. Drop their Cost to 5/8.
*They wear heavier armor then a Praetorian but have a significantly
lower armor. Up armor to at least 14 preferably 15.
*Add Covering Fire as an order. They are a drilled military and
should know how to protect their fellows as they advance.

Venator Catapult Crew
*They wear heavier armor then a Praetorian but have a significantly
lower armor. Up armor to at least 14 preferably 15.
*Give them the Venator Guns.

Agonizer
*Maddening is of little value. Recommend replacing it with an anti-
infantry ability.

Ancestral Guardian
*This doesn't perform at the level of a 3 point solo even when it is
full of souls. Either buff its damage output, have it provide a buff
for troopers in its CMD, or lower its cost. This is even after the boost to P+S13. A AG with 3 souls on the charge should be able to kill a single Champ.
*For buffing its damage give it auto-boosted damage and drop Brutal
Charge. This prevents 4 dice of damage on the charge like weapon
master.
*Currently don't serve any niche in the skorne forces. They can't
damage heavy infantry or beasts/jacks. The Totem Hunter is a better
solo hunter. The Master Tormentor is a better single wound killer.

Extoller Soulward
*Currently the gun on the Soulward outshines both of its magical
abilities. Its a buffer which should use its gun only if forced to. This was only made worse in the recent update.

Paingiver Bloodrunner Master Tormentor
*Increase SPD back to 7. With the nerf of the Tyrant Commander there
is no reason this shouldnt happen.

Void Spirit
*If the Void Spirit fails to kill its target it suffers heavily. This
sadly happens far too often. A second attack would help this.
*Prowl would work well with its ability to make clouds so it may survive a turn after attacking.
*The armor debuff is missing from Skorne. Dropping the P+S to
10 for Dark Shroud.

Tyrant Rhadeim
*Veteran leader is an annoying finicky ability.

This is Part 2 to my Donesh reply.

1)Praetorian Swordsman UA, I agree.

2)Tyrant Commander, Reveille is a bit lackluster even though it is usefull in certain situations.

3)Venators should be 5/8 I agree, if they get covering fire (which is fine) they might lose burst fire, I am guessing most people wont mind that too much.

4)You are 100% correct on the Catapult Crew, my khador mortar crew has their blunderbuss's, they should have their guns as well.

5)We discussed this in another thread, Maddening is ok and can work with other things in the army to screw beasts

6)The AG argument is a tough one, its not that it underperforms, it is just that its synergies are stretched all over the place. Your example makes little sense. Compare vs other 3 point solos, can they kill champs?

The Trollkin Champ Hero might be able to on the dot.

The AG on the charge does 13 + 3d6 = 23-24 damage. 1 more swing can kill it. If the troll dies then the one next to it with 1 more soul and boosted damage can potentially kill it as well. it really isn't that far off.

The Ogrun Warchief can't kill a champ on the charge either. PS 14 + 3d6 vs armor 18 isn't enough. So once again don't compare vs just the Trollkin Hero.

Lord of the Feast can't do it either.

Yuri can but he has far less hp and armor and will die where the others might live from an attack back.

People are so ready to accept the AG as being weak when they fail to see that is has the most armor and hp as well. Once again people only look at one side of the angle to suit their argument.

7)Extoller, i think its buffing abilities need a boost, they got a slight one but who knows if its enough.

8)Master Tormenter at spd 7, I agree.

9)Void Spirit, alot of things suffer greatly if they fail to kill a target. The void spirit really isn't bad but it should get 2 claw attacks atleast.

[Zaqir]

I don't think anyone is asking Venators to be as good as Mage Hunters, but instead saying that those aren't strong enough as they are now. BTW wasn't it your point that there are no units in the game that share the same range and pow and still cost less than 1 point per model? At least you could admit that there are and those units have also other abilities to make those a lot over the top.

So the point is that it is acceptable that some units aren't as good as the best ones in the game, but those should still be at least roughly at competitive level. Otherwise you'll never see those units in competitive play and then what's the point to even make those models? This is about Karax as Swordsmen are clearly superior in almost anything.

I'd like to know which Skorne models you are thinking are the absolute top. You seem to be content with our key models like AG to stay mediocre or weak so there has to be something clearly over the top we have?


Skorne Models that in my mind are TOP by themselves? Not counting Warlocks

Blood Runners.
Master Tormentor
Beast Handlers
Rhadiem
Bronze Back (as a mostly Khador player, oh how I would kill for a model that can berserk and just keep moving through enemies and fight jacks/beasts at the same time while being spd 5 def 12/arm 19)
Brute (I personally think its a great defensive beast/bodyguard)
Tyrant Commander
Gladiator

Skorne Models that are good and are great with just a few buffs readily available to them from other models or Warlocks.

Canonneer
Cetrati
Swordsmen
Void Spirit
Molik Karn

Models that are ok in my book.
Savage
Krea
AG
Ferox
Agonizer
Catapult
Extoller Soulward


Models that need help:
Swordsmen UA (doesn't offer enough to the unit)
Immortals (needs more synergy with AG or a buff to it like tough or something)
Karax (I personally like them but they are too NICHE)
Venators (should be 5/8)
Arcuraii (Maybe a point of Rat)
Drake (It should offer the buff to the KREA rather then the krea get the buff from it)
Rhinodon (Needs ap back on the horn charge)
Shaman (Animus is the most situational thing ever)

[knightdrake]

So Ferox are fine if you bring Rhadiem, good counter arguement there. Bring 5 extra points to make the 7/11 unit work as they should. Ferox shouldn't need Veteran leader from Rhadiem to be effective. At this point you are throwing away points to use as is. Would rather pay an extra point and use Cetrati. Sad that light cav in other faction can outperform drilled heavy cav.

Settle for marginal stuff and Skorne sits on the shelf collecting dust as they will lose all sense of fun to play.

[Zaqir]

So Ferox are fine if you bring Rhadiem, good counter arguement there. Bring 5 extra points to make the 7/11 unit work as they should. Ferox shouldn't need Veteran leader from Rhadiem to be effective. At this point you are throwing away points to use as is. Would rather pay an extra point and use Cetrati. Sad that light cav in other faction can outperform drilled heavy cav.

Settle for marginal stuff and Skorne sits on the shelf collecting dust as they will lose all sense of fun to play.

Ferox are ok and if you decide to bring Rhadiem (Admittedly usually its the other way around since you bring Rhadiem and maybe decide to bring Ferox) they are better.

I think with the Troll Cav getting a bit of a buff that the Ferox getting maybe +1 mat isn't a bad thing don't get me wrong I just don't think they are crap is all i am saying

[knightdrake]

Hey, its your faction, want the worst faction in Hordes they keep with the settling. Time for some honesty here with these updates as they are still far off base and not representing what this faction is and about.

Flame me all you want but I'll at least voice an honest opinion here and not roll over and say thank you PP. An awesome job has been done with the other faction and then you look at Skorne, the army that wished they could. They perform like a freaking third world army. Keep settling for a shiny turd.

[Zaqir]

Hey, its your faction, want the worst faction in Hordes they keep with the settling. Time for some honesty here with these updates as they are still far off base and not representing what this faction is and about.

Flame me all you want but I'll at least voice an honest opinion here and not roll over and say thank you PP. An awesome job has been done with the other faction and then you look at Skorne, the army that wished they could. They perform like a freaking third world army. Keep settling for a shiny turd.

Your right, from now on I wont stop until all Skorne models are 2 points cheaper and ahve 10+ more hp and do 15 more damage a hit.

Actually this a ploy, I play Khador 99.5% of the time. I am just trying to ruin a faction.

I don't think anyone should settle either in all seriousness but I think you can't just demand buffs and use the argument "We need to have all our models as good as the top models in the comparison" because frankly you know that wont work. I think with good arguments, examples and discussion you can effect change instead of using the "I am jealous of them, gimme gimme gimme"

[Solarhaphaeriom]

I don't think anyone should settle either in all seriousness but I think you can't just demand buffs and use the argument "We need to have all our models as good as the top models in the comparison" because frankly you know that wont work. I think with good arguments, examples and discussion you can effect change instead of using the "I am jealous of them, gimme gimme gimme"

Mmmm. Sometimes it seems that as soon as some of our models get buffed, we move on to the next thing on the Xmas list. Keep in mind that all the factions lost tricks, Mk2 power level isn't as high as fin-de-siecle Mk1.

[tensteam]

Skorne Models that in my mind are TOP by themselves? Not counting Warlocks

Blood Runners.
Master Tormentor
Beast Handlers
Rhadiem
Bronze Back (as a mostly Khador player, oh how I would kill for a model that can berserk and just keep moving through enemies and fight jacks/beasts at the same time while being spd 5 def 12/arm 19)
Brute (I personally think its a great defensive beast/bodyguard)
Tyrant Commander
Gladiator

Skorne Models that are good and are great with just a few buffs readily available to them from other models or Warlocks.

Canonneer
Cetrati
Swordsmen
Void Spirit
Molik Karn

Models that are ok in my book.
Savage
Krea
AG
Ferox
Agonizer
Catapult
Extoller Soulward


Models that need help:
Swordsmen UA (doesn't offer enough to the unit)
Immortals (needs more synergy with AG or a buff to it like tough or something)
Karax (I personally like them but they are too NICHE)
Venators (should be 5/8)
Arcuraii (Maybe a point of Rat)
Drake (It should offer the buff to the KREA rather then the krea get the buff from it)
Rhinodon (Needs ap back on the horn charge)
Shaman (Animus is the most situational thing ever)

Actually I'll agree with most of your list (most notable differences being Bronzeback and current version of Tyrant commander being too high and Cannoneer and Arcuarii being too down on the list). The difference seems to be that while for you the third group is ok, for me those are in need of minor buffs. So I'm not asking for the moon, but to make those worth their points... also in tournament play.

I probably did misinterpet your comments as you where saying for example 'no' to all suggested Karax changes. Those guys are really a problem, because swordsmen - while not super units of any kind - are just so much better choice in faction.

[Zaqir]

The problem I see for units like the Karax is that they are already cheap and in my mind they do what they should do for cheap units.

If they had a UA for instance, I think that would be a way to buff them via that route.

[Scalpel]

The main problem with the Karax is SPD 5.

PP made the Blood Runners SPD 6 from 7 because they wanted to "Standardise" the stat's of our models. Just like all Cav are 5 Wounds (unless you are Trolls and cry enough), and all Med Base Infatry are now 8 Wounds.

Therefore there is no reason these should not be SPD 6. In addition they are Pratorians with Sheilds .... so should be ARM 15.

However, these increases may make them go from a 4/6 to a 5/7-8 unit. Which then means really they need Set Defence to make them worth it (or something similar).

So now we have at least 2 buffs, maybe 3 ... to make them make sense ... but also PP will hike the points up on them.

So ... do they really need to be better ... and if so at what cost will we pay for it ?

Asking PP for Skorne Changes is like making wishes on a Cursed Magical Monkey Hand.

[werecat]

Asking PP for Skorne Changes is like making wishes on a Cursed Magical Monkey Hand.

Ha ha, yeah, so true.

[Rosicrucian]

What if the Bronzeback got reach on his tusks? That would make Amuck and berserk significantly nicer wouldn't it? I realize this would non-standardize the Titans, but he is the Alpha, just call them "Great Tusks" a la Skarre. *begins handwaving* Anticipating PP trickery would it still be desirable if he also had to get -1 spd, sort of the reverse of the Typhon change?

[Earthcrosser599]

Asking PP for Skorne Changes is like making wishes on a Cursed Magical Monkey Hand.

It's never too late to start Menoth...

[Mutton]

What if the Bronzeback got reach on his tusks? That would make Amuck and berserk significantly nicer wouldn't it? I realize this would non-standardize the Titans, but he is the Alpha, just call them "Great Tusks" a la Skarre. *begins handwaving* Anticipating PP trickery would it still be desirable if he also had to get -1 spd, sort of the reverse of the Typhon change?

Then you have Reach + Berserk + Overtake via the Animus. That's a goddamn Holy Grail when it comes to a model, then you throw in 5 fury and holy crap, Gerlak on Titan Growth Hormone.

[werecat]

What if the Bronzeback got reach on his tusks?

Pu-LEASE. This is the silliest suggestion of the entire FT, and it keeps coming up. If the Titans get reach on their tusks, I'll eat my hat.


Then you have Reach + Berserk + Overtake via the Animus. That's a goddamn Holy Grail when it comes to a model, then you throw in 5 fury and holy crap, Gerlak on Titan Growth Hormone.

Oh, so like Mulg with Madrak's feat? Except Mulg gets two inches of movement? :)

[Mutton]

Pu-LEASE. This is the silliest suggestion of the entire FT, and it keeps coming up. If the Titans get reach on their tusks, I'll eat my hat.



Oh, so like Mulg with Madrak's feat? Except Mulg gets two inches of movement? :)

On one hand, that's a feat. On the other, it is insane and really should be intensely tested; a few troll friends of mine think it's overpowered.

[Rosicrucian]

Having played with the Whitemane, who has reach, overtake and heart eater (functionally berserk in this case) built in I've found it quite good but not amazing. If your opponent bunches up their infantry? Good night. However, the new formation rules mean that with only a 1" move he often just gets a few kills and runs out of targets.

And come on man, no need to crucify me for suggesting reach. I don't read every post on the Skorne forum and I'm just trying to brainstorm how to turn his berserk+animus into something worthy of a 10 point beast. Reach does that and he happens to have these long pointy things sticking out of his face.

[Mutton]

*slowly puts down the nails and planks*
Nah, I'm a Circle player as well, so I know how good the Whitemane is. The fact that the bback can buy attacks though would be what would make it nuts, so if you miss or they tough you can buy and continue the beatdown.

[werecat]

Ugh, lets not talk about the whitemane... Makes me want to throw my ancestral guardian at the wall.

[Rosicrucian]

Ugh, lets not talk about the whitemane... Makes me want to throw my ancestral guardian at the wall.

FWIW with a P+S 13 AG I think these guys are more comparable than you think. Without overtake I'd think the White Mane was significantly worse. But I digress.

[werecat]

This is true. I haven't had a chance to see how the additional Power has affected things.