MkII Field Test Champions vs MKII Bastions

[Jolly Angus]

So I know that most people haven't had a chance to play with the MKII Field Test Champions yet. Since they are a favorite from MkI I'm sure there will be a lot of heated discussion about them, and being costed at 6/10 for a 3/5 man unit means they are a serious investment in points in our list. So, by way of comparison I took a look as Protectorate of Menoth Exemplar Bastions.

Why Bastions? They are a 5/8 unit compared to our 6/10 Champions. Both are medium based infantry that are both survivable, but also a serious melee threat. Most PoM players will agree that the Bastions are not only worth their points, but an excellent choice in many lists. So, let's see how the Champions stack up.

****Disclaimer. This is entirely based off of comparing stat cards. No actual playtesting went into this, and the stats of the Champions are those of the Field Test . Also, I know that these are units from separate armies, so in some sense we're comparing apples to oranges, but I feel that the comparison is valid on some level. Please keep this in mind when discussing.****

Base Stats: When in B2B the Champions have +1 spd, +1 def and +2 arm over the Bastions (not taking into account any additional buffs). I'd say Champions win this round.

Survivability: Bastions and Champions share the same number of wounds. Bastions have Sanguine Bond, which not only helps keep the entire unit alive but is invaluable is choosing which member stays alive longest to block charge lanes etc. Champions have the added natural defense and arm in addition to tough, which is not as reliable as Sanguine Bond but can be really handy if the dice are simling. I'd call this one a wash

Offensive Punch: Both units are weapon masters. Bastions have reach, an extra point of pow, magical weapons and Blessed. Champions don't have nearly as many bells and whistles, but what they do have is two attacks. So, on a min unit you're looking at either 3 p+s 12 magical, weapon master, reach attacks that ignore arm and def buffs or 6 p+s 11 weapon master attacks? Different strokes for different folks I suppose, but in the majority of cases, I'd say that Champions are going to be bringing the hurt more than the Bastions.

Synergy: Both Trollbloods and Protectorate have incredible amounts of synergy and buffing available to them. I'm not going to go into every possible caster and list combination. My general impression is this. PoM has some really great buffs that increase the survivability of the Bastions (through def/arm buffs and protection from spells) or their offensive punch (ignite, Eye of Menoth...). However, it is very easy (regardless of caster) to get Champions up to arm 20, or to increase their mat, str or prevent knockdown. Again, it all depends on the situation, but I think in faction synergy has to go to the Champions.

So there you have it. And the question I have for you is this. Compared to the Bastions, do you think that Champions are worth an additional 1/2 points at min/max level? In my opinion, yes I think it's a valid point cost for an exceptional unit. Would I mind if they got bumped down to 5/8? Of course not.

[theummhmmguy]

My thoughts exactly sir. Not As Fancy as Bastions, but more than capable of doing better than Bastions can in most cases.

[ozmo]

I think +1 for 3 is fair, +2 for 5 is a bit much.
Maybe champs should be 6/9

Tell me if you think it's a fair comparison, but take a look at 3 man champs vs great bears. Makes me want to cry.

[Redphantasm]

Fair comparison ozmo.

However, comparing a unit of 3 champs to a Khador character unit is not a fair comparison. Simply put: they're characters. They also ace Bastions, Shocktroops, Demo Corpse and anything else in their point bracket. Same way Withershadow blow away comparable points worth of solo spell casters.

[ozmo]

I understand that they are characters and as such they should have some benefit but the difference is HUGE. If the bears are priced appropriately, to even come close 3 champs should cost 4.

Making characters better by vastly undercosting them doesn't do anyone any real favors

[Strange_Eric]

You don't even need to go that far to find that Champions _just_ with Krielstone Bearer are sitting on ARM 20 which is a _huge_ difference compared to Bastions.
Add into the fact that you can Sure Foot the unit with Concealment from a Stonescribe And suddenly DEF16 ARM 20 is a lot more scary.

Champions cost more because they need too. If they were cheaper they'd be in every list as a auto-include for out-performing their point level.

[Strange_Eric]

You don't even need to go that far to find that Champions _just_ with Krielstone Bearer are sitting on ARM 20 which is a _huge_ difference compared to Bastions.
Add into the fact that you can Sure Foot the unit with Concealment from a Stonescribe And suddenly DEF16 ARM 20 is a lot more scary.

Champions cost more because they need too. If they were cheaper they'd be in every list as a auto-include for out-performing their point level.

As it is, comparing Bastions to any trollblood model is unadvised. There are so many effects that layer in a trollblood army that its nigh uncomparable.

In short: Test them first. Weapon master is a _huge_ deal.

[Redphantasm]

I understand that they are characters and as such they should have some benefit but the difference is HUGE. If the bears are priced appropriately, to even come close 3 champs should cost 4.

Making characters better by vastly undercosting them doesn't do anyone any real favors

Just took a look at the great bears again and I'm not really seeing this vast gulf of difference.

They are the same number of attacks, but the bears have a bit more MAT, POW and reach.

Champs have more armor and more damage boxes.

The great bears have precision strike, which is ok, but nothing ground breaking.

The great bears have 3 abilities (relentless charge, circular vision, and steady) each of these are ok abilities. But remember each one disappears when the corresponding bear dies. Pop Kolsk and you can knock the other 2 down to your heart's content.

There is a gap, but a gap explainable by the fact that you are comparing a character unit to an FA 2 line unit. Great Bears are that good because there are only ever 3 of them, and their performance degrades as each one dies. Champs are good throughout, and outnumber the great bears 3-1.

But again, this is not a fair comparison of units. The bastions (or shocktroops) to champs is a better one to make, and that indicates the champs are strong, it possibly overcosted.

[ozmo]

Point well taken but the same argument made for menoth jacks that support has to be paid for stands here.
Sure champs can get scary with surefoot,gobbers and KSB but once again, this is only good in the Madrak brick, I'd hope that troll champs wouldn't need support to perform.

[theummhmmguy]

We already know from the Cryx Arc-Node cost discussion thread that they balance point costs in faction. They don't care much if comparable units in different armies vary point cost wise, they care what you can do to them to make them better and cost them accordingly. In short, Yes we pay for our buffs in the cost of our guys.

[ozmo]

Can I compare gatormen to champs then? :p
Definitely better threat range :rolleyes:

[mongre36]

While comparing abilities to other wound 8 models is probably not unreasonable I would not expect much to come from comparing the champs to the great bears. After all the MoW DC did not get dropped to 5/8 despite 3 MoW DC being a lot less flexible at 6 points compared to the 3 bears.

What is curious to me is why 5/8 and 6/10, in WM the 8 wound troops are 5/8 and 6/9, why are the warspears and champs 6/10, seems like an odd spread.

[i_like_tool]

You don't even need to go that far to find that Champions _just_ with Krielstone Bearer are sitting on ARM 20 which is a _huge_ difference compared to Bastions.


If we're going to add Buffs than lets add Menoth's buffs too. I play both afterall and contemplate these things lol

Toss on Defender's Ward and I'm rocking Defense 13 Arm 16 which is comparable to non b2b Champions who have KSB on them. Sure B2B Champions are Arm 20 but they don't have Reach nor Sanguine Bond.
Or if eKreoss you kill one of us your Knocked down and not getting your 2nd attack
God Forbid Sevvy is around casting Influence and making your Champions kill one another

Lets not also forget the auto-include Covenant, in some list, can grant there attacks the Fire effect or no knockdown.

Just saying.....if you want to look at Buffs, look at the whole pic here

[Strange_Eric]

I am looking at the whole pic. You can't start throwing around spells here like that because you can't be sure they'll go off.

Simply go on what static buffs that don't require a dice roll.

Bastions are limited, as the synergy that Menoth has is tiny and incrimental. It doesn't even begin to touch the amount of layering a Trollblood player can bring to the table.

Champs Fully decked out

Mat 7
+2 Fell Caller
+2 Carnage
+2 Chronicler

POW
+3 Rage
+1 KSB UA
+2 Chronicler

DEF
+2 Sure Foot (can't be knocked down)

ARM
+2 Defensive Line
+2 KSB

So in Short: MAT 13 POW 17+4d6 DEF14 ARM 20
You can't get near that with menoth. If you're worried about adding more defense, throw a Swamp Gobber template on top for another +2 DEF to put em at 16. All this and I haven't thrown a single D6 yet.

This is why im saying you can't compare them. Bastions are like little old ladies next to champions. Sure they may be fierce angry old ladies but frail as heck in comparison.

[Chadwick]

I was fortunate enough to play a game this evening with the new Champions.

The two main units I fielded were Kriel Warriors, and Champions, in an eMadrak list. The Kriel Warriors were the stars of the show, surprisingly, but the Champions were the real lurking threat.

Unless you're playing against an army that can specialize into very very high POW melee attacks, your champions will not die. ARM 20 and 8 wounds is very very good, and I held onto all 5 champs til the very end of the game.

The champs still perform GREAT at wrecking large targets. In one turn I had merely 2 champs completely wreck a light warjack, and in another turn I had 3 champs do massive damage to a heavy. They had Stone Strength both turns, but I never got in place to give them Rage. If I had given Rage to 2 champs, as well as activated Stone Strength, I really think just 2 of them could have wrecked a heavy jack in one turn. This is huge, because my biggest gripe about champs in MK1 was that they became increasingly less potent as they died, or were unable to make attacks to really get a good concert buff rolling. That problem is simply gone now. They hit like trucks, first champ to last. With Stone Strength, they can wreck pretty much anything, and with Rage they will absolutely wreck everything.

The real surprise to me, though, came from how completely useful the Hero's tactics were to the unit. The ability to move and draw LOS through your own units is something I've always known was very powerful, but never really realized exactly HOW powerful until I had my models on the board and started realizing the possibilities in front of me. I was getting crazy charges off, engaging tons of models that it seemed like I would have to trip over myself to get to, and getting every single champ into the fray with ease. I don't even feel like I was on top of my game with positioning them, but it was just so easy to do whatever I wanted with them.

All in all, I think they faired amazingly well, considering how hard everyone expected them to be nerfed. I might even PREFER the new champs to the old champs, but I feel like saying that around here could get me lynched... also, I need a lot more than just one game to make that call.

[Writer@Large]

I might even PREFER the new champs to the old champs, but I feel like saying that around here could get me lynched...

Get a rope ... ;)

Actually, thanks for the report. I think we TBs need a few battle reports around here. The first-reaction theorymachining is getting dreary.

--W@L

[Waaargh]

Yeah, thanks. I too consider the Hero's tactic unimportant, but good to hear from you that it worked really well.

[Bearded Dragon]

I too was wondering why they were 6/10 instead of 6/9 like the ManO'War. Still, I think they are a nice unit.

[Darloc]

When I read their stat I compared them to our DC, and I think in that respect they are well priced.
DC get reach, backswing or ice braker, -1 DEF and SPD compare to the champion. Champion got though, defensive line and weapon master. I think they are worth the point.
Comparing them to the great bears is a moot point, sure the great bear are good but you can only take one unit of them and you get 3, that's it. You need to compare them to things that are similar, heavy inf that smash face.
Given the boost you can get in arm (arm 20 champions, that's scary) and punching power (heroic ballad/calamity anyone?) on them, I think they are still the treat they were in markI.
Sure they lost some of their abilities but all you casters are way better now.

[Patuljak]

Thanks for the comparison and the battle report. I was about to knee-jerk without any playtesting about their point cost which I thought was too high but this reminded me that it's not what is needed. I look forward to trying them out myself.

[thesama]

I have to say after soem thought I like the new champs a bit better than the old. Weapon master . Concert for one reason. The champions really had a diminishing returns problem as members of the units got eliminated they were highly effective the turn they reached engagement but quickly wne downhill. now even a single champion remaining is a threat that has to be considered. Compare a single Champion to a Manhunter and you'll get the idea (ok, no pathfinding, but whatever). I also like having the option to only field 3 for a reduced point cost.

[MenothJohn]

I really think the Champs and the Bastions do a great job fulfilling their role in both armies. These two units are the elite beat stick of their faction. Time was, before 6 - 8 months ago, before the Bastions were released, Knights Exemplar were the go to beat stick of choice. The brother hood buffs made them very tough...once all their buddies were dead.

I almost never run an army without Bastions anymore. They are a touch on the slow side, but my play style is NOT a run across the table and kill you sort of style. I rarely if ever see a troll army without at least 1 unit of Champs. I think the added point cost in the troll army is acceptable given the increase in speed, two attacks, etc...

I really think PP did an amazing job with this play test. I always new that Hordes would be a less dramatic change than the WM test was...and PP has taken a great system and made it just that much better.