A Simple Fix for Lylyth2

[Dromemord]

As I understand it, Lylyth2 is meant primarily to supplement ranged warbeasts with her feat and Shadow Pack, secondarily to assassinate single targets with Bullseye, and tertiarily to control the movement of the opposing force with Lock the Target and Pursuit.

She also have several movement augmenting abilities (Pathfinder, Evasive, and Swift Hunter) and function enabling abilities (Eyeless Sight, Arcane Hunter, and Range Amplifier)

Finally, she gives a nod to ranged infantry and solos on her feat turn.

This is all well and good, but it seems to me that she ends up falling short in her primary and tertiary roles. In an effort to make her more functional I suggest the following change:

Remove Lock the Target from her spell list and add Shadow Bind to Whisper. (Shadow Bind: A model hit by this weapon suffers ?3 DEF and when it advances it cannot move except to change facing. Shadow Bind expires after one round.)

Rationale: Lock the Target has an excellent rider effect in that it denies movement and, when coupled with Range Amplifier, has an astounding 15 inch range. However, it is largely useless as a board control mechanism due to the fact that it can not reliably damage high armor targets, even supplemented by Bullseye, without boosting. The result of this shortcoming is that Lylyth can only reliably affect a single high armor model per activation with Lock the Target and even in that event, she's left with only 2 fury at the end of it. With Shadow Bind Lylyth could not only limit the movement of two targets, even if she fails to damage them, but would increase the accuracy of her army when attacking them for the rest of the turn.

Thoughts?

[OldOneEye]

My thought is that putting those effects on a weapon that can shoot up to 16" in the hands of a model with Eyeless Sight and RAT 8 would be entirely too good. Even just one of those would be OP.

Also, Bullseye has nothing to do with Lock the Target. It only adds dice to ranged attack rolls.

The mere fact that Lock the Target can be cast at 15" makes it fine, even if damaging high-armor targets is a bit of a struggle. You can take a shot at those "it'd be nice if this couldn't run or charge, but it's hardly critical" targets from a safe distance.

LTT is fine spell support for a Legion army. Damage something so it can't run or charge. Now, your Striders can move up, CRA, then Bushwhack back to safety on their next turn. The Seraph can move up, Strafe, and not receive a brutal counter-attack for its troubles. That's an extra round of shooting for the Angelius to soften up a target before it finishes with its AP attack.

EDIT: Someone else pointed this out, but if you really, REALLY need Lock the Target to pin something down, take a Nyss Sorceress. Auto-damage FTW!

[alchahest]

I really like LTT. it is especially brutal with a nyss sorc. but the heaviest armored targets are not always the ones you want to lock. it is pretty much exactly what we'd asked for and now we're complaining about it.

Elylyth is fantastic and I've enjoyed success with her prior to lock the target (Bullseye was not a large part of that success) and am looking forward to lock the target.

[Lazlo]

I really like LTT. it is especially brutal with a nyss sorc. but the heaviest armored targets are not always the ones you want to lock. it is pretty much exactly what we'd asked for and now we're complaining about it.

Elylyth is fantastic and I've enjoyed success with her prior to lock the target (Bullseye was not a large part of that success) and am looking forward to lock the target.

What's this "we" crap? I'm not complaining. I like it and I like her. She sucks at most scenarios, but I can live with that. I would have liked a spell that helped her army's damage output (like Pin Cushion did), but this is nice too.

[alchahest]

pardon me. many of us asked for a way to stop models from moving.

[Lazlo]

pardon me. many of us asked for a way to stop models from moving.

I meant the complaining part, not the asking part. I'm all for stopping models when I play eLylyth.

[Soulblighter]

Remove Lock the Target from her spell list and add Shadow Bind to Whisper. (Shadow Bind: A model hit by this weapon suffers –3 DEF and when it advances it cannot move except to change facing. Shadow Bind expires after one round.)

Way too powerful. The vast majority of spells/abilities that stopped models from moving have been removed from the game and have been limited mostly to feats or critical effects. Lock the Target is as good as were going to get when it comes to movement denial.

Lock the Target fits Lylyth2's playstyle perfectly. It keeps the major threats from charging her while she positions herself for the assassination. I still feel Pursuit should be swapped out with a different spell though since it is somewhat redundant with the raek animus. I would very much like her to regain a spell like Pin Cushion to help out our POW10 troops.

[Dromemord]

Alright, if Shadow Bind is considered too powerful because it eliminates movement on a hit how about something like Death Chill that procs on each hit? The Pistol Wraith has it as a Chain Attack (Chain Attack: Death Chill - If this model hits the same model with both its initial attacks with this weapon, after resolving the attacks it can immediately make one additional ranged attack against that model ignoring ROF. If the additional attack hits, it does not inflict damage but the model hit must forfeit either its movement or action on its next activation.) but I don't think it would be so overwhelming on Lylyth since she at least has a chance to miss with it. Sure she'd probably get to use it three times on her feat turn from 16 inches away, but as feats go that's still not exactly awe inspiring.

The big advantage to moving her board manipulation ability to her weapon is that it's much more fury efficient than a spell. Lock the Target, while a fine idea on a seven Fury warlock, is just too taxing for Lylyth. As it stands now she needs to cast Lock the Target for 2 Fury, she practically needs to boost damage to ensure its rider effect for 1 Fury, she needs to upkeep Shadow Pack for 1 Fury, and she needs to buy a second attack with Whisper for 1 Fury. That's her turn. No boosted attack rolls, no boosted damage rolls apart from Lock the Target, which at Pow 10 deals damage roughly comparable to an unboosted shot with Whisper, and no Fury left over for transfers. She's reduced the movement of one target and hit one or two Defense 15 targets for around 19 damage.

In my opinion, not so great.

Honestly, I'm still backing Shadow Bind. It debuffs Defense for the rest of her army and actually stops the target from moving at all, which is immensely preferably to forcing a normal advance on one model. If adding that cost her Lock the Target and even Brutal Damage I wouldn't complain.

[Soulblighter]

Honestly, I'm still backing Shadow Bind.

You could maybe make a case for Critical Shadow Bind. But automatic Shadow Bind on a ranged attack will never happen. Even Cryx doesnt have a spell or ranged attack with automatic Shadow Bind.

[OldOneEye]

The big advantage to moving her board manipulation ability to her weapon is that it's much more fury efficient than a spell. Lock the Target, while a fine idea on a seven Fury warlock, is just too taxing for Lylyth. As it stands now she needs to cast Lock the Target for 2 Fury, she practically needs to boost damage to ensure its rider effect for 1 Fury, she needs to upkeep Shadow Pack for 1 Fury, and she needs to buy a second attack with Whisper for 1 Fury. That's her turn. No boosted attack rolls, no boosted damage rolls apart from Lock the Target, which at Pow 10 deals damage roughly comparable to an unboosted shot with Whisper, and no Fury left over for transfers. She's reduced the movement of one target and hit one or two Defense 15 targets for around 19 damage.

In my opinion, not so great.

You're pushing her way too hard if that's what you try and do in a typical turn. Why is she even buying attacks with her bow? LTT can be fired at something 15" away; I'm not going to be getting close enough to USE her bow if I'm looking to cast LTT. Even if you are, then you've got to make a decision about what's more important that turn: shooting with her bow, or doing damage with that spell.

Pick a target of opportunity. Don't try to cast LTT if spending the fury for that is going to put her in a bad spot. Hide behind some trees and harass with it.


Honestly, I'm still backing Shadow Bind. It debuffs Defense for the rest of her army and actually stops the target from moving at all, which is immensely preferably to forcing a normal advance on one model. If adding that cost her Lock the Target and even Brutal Damage I wouldn't complain.
I would. Bullseye is a great ability, and it's unique among our choices. You may not get excited about it, but I love that I've got a model that can command such a huge area of the board with the threat of the amount of damage she can dish out when she wants.

Shadow Bind exists on three models in either game-- both Deneghras and the Witch Coven. It shows up on a melee weapon, as a feat, and as a critical effect for a spell. Yet you want to put it on a ranged weapon that can be fired twice every turn, three times on the feat turn, with a threat range of anywhere from 19- 23". Hitting at no less than RAT 8. That's too good.

[Malkav13]

I really like is as a spell. I think that it really helps add an element of control to Lylth that she really needs.

[IronChefZod]

I think Lock the Target is a bad match for eLylyth. She doesn't have enough fury to do much aside from pop off a couple bow shots and maybe upkeep 1 or 2 spells. Also what real board control does it give you exactly? It only stops runs/charges. Boohoo I'll just advance or trample at SPD+3. It also stops place effects, but how often is that going to be useful?

The spell would be decent on a higher fury caster that doesn't already have a fury efficient way of dealing damage. As it stands, very very rarely am I going to cast this over just popping off bow shots. I'd much rather have Death Sentence back, but I doubt that is going to happen.

[RoyalAssassin]

I agree that her limited Fury makes Lock the Target a little tough to deploy - boosted damage puts it right at 20 damage, enough to get a point on most things but certainly not all. The Hellion goes a long way towards getting LtT stuck on a victim, if you can keep the Hellion itself alive (a different discussion entirely).

Outside of the difficulties with deploying it, I like it as an effect. Sure, you can advance - probably 4" or 5" on the targets I really care about Locking. You can trample and give up all your initial attacks and a point of fury/focus. You can still do things with the Locked target, but Lock has screwed up its choices pretty solidly and certainly reduced its meaningful threat range.

I don't miss Death Sentence. I never used it. Now, at least, her spell list is solidly geared towards establishing position - Stealth to protect her beasts while they set up, Pursuit to punish a unit for moving, Lock to retard a problematic jack. With the mandatory Shadow Stalk, she's got a good mix of moving on the opponent's turn and preventing counter-charges with Lock.

I've only got two problems with current eLylyth. Purification; anyone with access to that effect trashes her. When she loses her Shadow Stalks, she's a second-rate eCaine. Her feat feels like it's still suffering from the Mk1 Strider Legion. That was hosed when Rapid Shot fell off of Striders. I've run Mk2 eLylyth with Mk1 Decimation and haven't gotten a word of complaint from opponents. It's feat-level strong and something to fear, but it's not the first-turn win it used to be.

[ShockwaveIIC]

I maybe missing something, but if something stops you charging does it not stop you trampling and slamming as well?

[OldOneEye]

I maybe missing something, but if something stops you charging does it not stop you trampling and slamming as well?
Nope, you're right.

[Soulblighter]

I think Lock the Target is a bad match for eLylyth. She doesn't have enough fury to do much aside from pop off a couple bow shots and maybe upkeep 1 or 2 spells. Also what real board control does it give you exactly? It only stops runs/charges. Boohoo I'll just advance or trample at SPD+3. It also stops place effects, but how often is that going to be useful?

Its a great match for eLylyth actually. If youre not able to use Lock the Target effectively with a 15" range youre simply not being creative. Ive had amazing success with Lock the Target shutting down enemy warbeasts.

EDIT: Also you cant trample if you cant charge so im not sure what youre talking about.

[IronChefZod]

You're right, you can't trample if you can't charge. Sorry old Mk1 pre-clarification holdover.

Since Lock the Target does keep you from trampling, it is a lot better than I thought. It will actually stop a beast/jack from being able to engage my Seraphs.