1 Point per Spray ? Or why our stuff is so expensive

[Garth]

Hi!

Yeah, this is a very simple way to look at things. But look at the following 3 models:

Carnivean 11 points
Typhon 12 points
Nyss Sorceress 4 points

All this models seem quite expensive. Now remove the sprays from them and look in other factions what this model would cost.

Carnivean without spray and assault ? Perhaps 10 points. He has pathfinder, a good speed, good armor and so on. But with 10 points he would still be an expensive, but good warbeast.

Typhon: Well without his sprays he is just a warbeast with 3 pow 17 attacks. Not much armor, no pathfinder, nothing special. Perhaps he would be a bit cheap with 9 points, but 9-10 should be ok.

The Sorceress would be 3 points at most without her spray. She is a solo with much hit points, some abilities that someone at the PP-HQ found useful (otherwise she wouldn't have them...what I think about them you can read in this forum, too *g*) and she is fast. So she would be one of the weaker 3 point solos.


Yeah, of course each model becomes weaker and cheaper if you remove some abilities. But did you get so much use out of sprays ? Some people were talking about "the spray faction". Yes I had some fun with Sprays, but are they really that great ?
They are quite highly priced and I don't think that this will change.

So how are your experiences with Sprays ? And do you think they are really worth the points ?

Edit: Oh I forgot to mention that I think that this could be part of the problem we currently have against jack heavy armies (made out of cheap jacks). We pay for our sprays, but they don't work against heavy Jacks. Against mixed forces I was always was happy with the typhon and the Carnivean (Carni assaults, sprays and then takes out the jack, typhoon decides what he wants to do and everything works great). But if it comes to only heavy targets we pay a high price for the sprays and they don't do something useful any longer.

What I want to change ? Not much. And I don't think that our beasts will become cheaper. We pay for our versatility on them. So the anti-jack solution has to come from somewhere else.

Garth

[RoyalAssassin]

I like sprays. I've had some success with them. They're hard to defend against and kinda fun to throw on the table.

I don't like them as much as Privateer and some of the forum regulars do. Just reading the boards, I'd swear that a POW14 spray was an autowin. I'd swear we could have a model with 10 DEF, 10 ARM, 5 health, and randomized movement and people would treat it like the second coming of the Mage Hunter Assassin - there's actually a thread going on over on the Field Test board with a Retribution player - a RETRIBUTION, "home of the MHA", player - complaining that the Circle Blackclad is too powerful because it's got a POW12 Sp8. I agree that it looks like Privateer prizes sprays, given the point cost that most spray-capable models incur for the capacity.

I like them. I don't love them enough to field a frail flamethrower platform. I don't hate them enough to lobby for removing them and dropping point costs.

Jack-hunting will have to be infantry work (or maybe revised Soldier work) until the Forces books come out; solving that problem for real means adding some cheap, Crusader-class heavies, and I don't think we're going to see any new Hordes models until the Force books start coming out.

[Dromemord]

I agree with you insofar as the cost of these models weighed against their grab bag of abilities does seem disproportionate.

As far as Typhon goes, he appears to be the 'best' of the three models named simply because he can function at a high level with both his anti-infantry ranged abilities and his anti-jack/beast melee abilities. I'd like to see him get reach back, but I'd have to go all the way to hell and blow out the pilot light for that to happen.

The Carnivean is impressive against single targets, though its lack of open fist really limits its utility. I'd gladly trade his spray and assault for Chain Attack: Grab and Smash (Chain Attack: Grab & Smash - If this model hits the same model with both its initial attacks with this weapon, after resolving the attacks it can immediately make a double-hand throw, head-butt, head/weapon/arm lock, push, or throw power attack against that target.) or preferably, Chain Attack: Bloodbath (Chain Attack: Bloodbath - If this model hits the same target with both its initial attacks with this weapon, after resolving the attacks it can immediately make one melee attack with this weapon against each model in its LOS that is in this weaponʼs melee range.) on its Talons.

Lacking experience with the Sorceress and any desire to use the model I'm not sure what to say about it. How about we trade anything at all on her stat card for Ancillary Attack for warbeasts?

[Spleen Hammer]

Thus far I've found that sprays equal wins. I've hosed entire lines of troops and caught some beasts in the fray as well. And not only with Legion. Venom was used to great effect back in the day (Cryx, who are they?).

But yeah, sprays are that good. I don't mind paying a premium for the ones that I use, because they are something that you just can't hide from and will bring my enemies demise. Perhaps that was a bit dramatic, but you get the idea...

I say, let's get some more!

[OldOneEye]

I'll gladly play a premium for sprays. They're that good.

Since April, when the WM Field Test rules came out, I've been using the Greylord Ternion nonstop. I started using them because I went, "4 points for 3 single-wound models? They cost too much!" So I playtested them. Time and time again, the difference-making ability of theirs was the spray. I found that their spray attacks easily justified the cost of the unit. Things only got better when the final rules came out and sprays got all their current buffs of ignoring Stealth, concealment, cover, and shooting into melee penalties.

I've not used Typhon, but I have used the Carnivean and Sorceress, and I've used the sprays on both of those models to great effect. On the Sorceress, it's an accurate spray on a highly mobile platform. On the Carnivean, it's a freaking 10" spray that it can do after charging 9". That'll reach out and touch someone.

Sprays won't tear apart warjacks in most cases. What sprays CAN do, however, is kill off all the support models that keep those warjacks going. That they do very well.

[Nargacuga]

I'd say sprays are worth about 0.6

Sprays are good, but not enough to justify a 1 point premium.

[jonconcarne]

[QUOTE=OldOneEye;76191...
I've not used Typhon, but I have used the Carnivean and Sorceress, and I've used the sprays on both of those models to great effect. On the Sorceress, it's an accurate spray on a highly mobile platform. On the Carnivean, it's a freaking 10" spray that it can do after charging 9". That'll reach out and touch someone.
...[/QUOTE]

Yes, the sprays are awesome to have...when they can hit models. i.e. the sprays are awesome on the models when they can get buffed to hit. If you're playing with a caster with no buff to hit, they're fairly lackluster (Typhon being the exception to the rule here, that guy is exceptional all the time).

If I remember rightly, the Greylords are magic ability 7 for their sprays. Just something to keep in mind is all. 1 pt for a spray on a model that can consistently hit things? Sure, 1 pt is reasonable. 1 pt for a model that can sometimes hit the broad side of a barn with the right buffs? No way. Just my take, but that's what I think about it.

[Pantheon]

PP adds a premium for versatility....


Legion beasts are expensive because they are

1) speed 6
2) hard hitting
3) carny and typhon are both durable (in different ways)
4) Combine sprays and high pow attacks.


A single model that has speed, power, the ability to clear troops or take down a heavy?

Yeah that sounds like it should be expensive.


Legion just needs, and I assume will recieve eventually, a more stripped down heavy with less special rules...thus costing less points.


Till then though.....carnies, typhon, and angels are all great

[Nargacuga]

PP adds a premium for versatility....


Legion beasts are expensive because they are

1) speed 6
2) hard hitting
3) carny and typhon are both durable (in different ways)
4) Combine sprays and high pow attacks.


A single model that has speed, power, the ability to clear troops or take down a heavy?

Yeah that sounds like it should be expensive.



If the premium isn't solely due to the spray, would you mind explaining the price of the highly versatile Feral Warpwolf with that logic?

[OldOneEye]

Yes, the sprays are awesome to have...when they can hit models. i.e. the sprays are awesome on the models when they can get buffed to hit. If you're playing with a caster with no buff to hit, they're fairly lackluster (Typhon being the exception to the rule here, that guy is exceptional all the time).

If I remember rightly, the Greylords are magic ability 7 for their sprays. Just something to keep in mind is all. 1 pt for a spray on a model that can consistently hit things? Sure, 1 pt is reasonable. 1 pt for a model that can sometimes hit the broad side of a barn with the right buffs? No way. Just my take, but that's what I think about it.
Greylords can't boost their attack rolls, though, which is something warbeasts such as the Carnivean CAN do. If it does hit, it can then boost its damage roll-- again, something Greylords can't do. That's probably enough of a factor on its own, but when combined with the warlocks that do buff the hit rolls, it has to be balanced pretty carefully.

[jonconcarne]

Greylords can't boost their attack rolls, though, which is something warbeasts such as the Carnivean CAN do. If it does hit, it can then boost its damage roll-- again, something Greylords can't do. That's probably enough of a factor on its own, but when combined with the warlocks that do buff the hit rolls, it has to be balanced pretty carefully.

True, but usually it's much more worthwhile to spend that fury on the Carni's animus or on an extra melee attack. The one time that I actually attempted to use the Carni's spray as anything other than a slim possibility for damage, I was going for a 3rd and final attempt at killing Grim (who had already passed a tough roll). Other than that, I can't really think of a time where the Carni was worth boosting the attack or damage on the spray since he'll likely only hit the model you're boosting against (and even then, will very often miss). The circumstances change drastically under Incite or Manifest Destiny, but I tend to treat the Carni's spray as a second thought since it is much more capable in melee. Not to say that the spray should be ignored in the point cost, but in general not as effective as the Greylords' sprays. It is significantly less effective than one of Typhon's sprays due to Typhon's much higher rat, but that is to be expected since that's kind of Typhon's schtick now.

[grottoknight]

I was going for a 3rd and final attempt at killing Grim (who had already passed a tough roll).
Ya, that was for the win. How is that bad? Knockdowns and stationary are a bit more abundant now as they are easier to shake off in that players own turn.


Other than that, I can't really think of a time where the Carni was worth boosting the attack or damage
I turn 2'd a very good player with the Carny. I assault charged a model in front of Haley, boosted attack hit exactly them boosted damaged and Trip 6'd it. Well worth the shock and awe from my opponent. It was great. Still look for the assault whenever possible.


The circumstances change drastically under Incite or Manifest Destiny
Of course, they are even worse. With assault his threat range is now 19" and ignore cover and models in melee are all hit now. bye bye swordsmen, damage to lock/caster, and hello incubi.

Sprays are wowee wowee better especially since many have more range, all ignore cover and melee, and from what I hear shhhh the new templates are wider and will be rounded at the end.

[Soulblighter]

I love sprays. except when theyre RAT4. In the case of the Carnivean, Id rather have a 10 point Carnivean without a spray.

[alchahest]

rat4 is overcome with spells, buffs, or boosting. if your strategy relies on that 10" P14 spray, you're going to want to boost to hit. anyways

[OldOneEye]

True, but usually it's much more worthwhile to spend that fury on the Carni's animus or on an extra melee attack.

Since it has Fury 4 and three initial melee attacks, all at pretty high P+S, I find a lot of flexibility in how I use that fury. Two or three POW 18s and two POW 16s (assuming forcing once for the charge and buying one or two more bite attacks) is going to do the job in most cases. With the Carnivean being MAT 6 now, you can often forgo boosting attack rolls against models that you'd send a Carnivean after.


The one time that I actually attempted to use the Carni's spray as anything other than a slim possibility for damage, I was going for a 3rd and final attempt at killing Grim (who had already passed a tough roll). Other than that, I can't really think of a time where the Carni was worth boosting the attack or damage on the spray since he'll likely only hit the model you're boosting against (and even then, will very often miss).

That's the beauty of the fury/forcing system. You boost on the one important spray attack roll. If it misses, you go on about your business with all its other attacks. If it hits, though, you then have the flexibility of boosting damage if needed. Against a warlock or warcaster, it's probably worth forcing again. Against other stuff, boost at your discretion. You don't have to commit to boosting the damage until you know the spray has hit.

It's also a 10" spray. Even if you miss the boosted roll against the important target, chances are pretty good that your template is overlapping other models. Just roll on two dice for them and see what happens. You can still do a lot of collateral damage unintentionally.


The circumstances change drastically under Incite or Manifest Destiny, but I tend to treat the Carni's spray as a second thought since it is much more capable in melee. Not to say that the spray should be ignored in the point cost, but in general not as effective as the Greylords' sprays. It is significantly less effective than one of Typhon's sprays due to Typhon's much higher rat, but that is to be expected since that's kind of Typhon's schtick now.
As much as I like the Carnivean, I have yet to see it make a melee attack at a model that's 19" away. :cool: The spray may not be as effective as a Greylord's individual spray (though I disagree, given its range, higher POW, and the ability to boost its rolls), but it's also mounted on a warbeast with 30 damage boxes as opposed to a 13/13 single-wound model.

[Captain_Obvious]

I agree that our beasts dont really have the facilities to take out heavy Jacks on their own...p'raps we can rely on our infantry units to take care of that?
It may be hard to get them into combat, but a unit like Swordsmen could take down a Jack pretty quickly I think. I used to play Khador and got my jacks torn down pretty quickly by infantry units, so in theory this could work well.
Im a relatively new player though, so I could be completely off base here.

[RoyalAssassin]

I agree that our beasts dont really have the facilities to take out heavy Jacks on their own...p'raps we can rely on our infantry units to take care of that?

It's not unrealistic to use infantry to tie up jacks, if not kill them. Infantrylegion is starting to become The Way, outside of Vayl and eThags (and maybe Abs, but even Abs is well stocked at a couple of heavies to keep upkeeps on and a Shredder/Harrier for the free animus). To paraphrase Necra-Chi (paraphrasing because I can't find the quote), we're countering the "more for less" of warjacks with "even more for even less" of infantry. The downside is that it's encouraging Infantrymachine, and one of the PPS guys said that discouraging beasts was not one of the design goals for Mk2. Plus, very few of us got in Legion to push little toy soldiers around the board. Most of us got into it to push big toy monsters around the table. Not being able to do so competitively may not be game-breaking, but it's heart-breaking.

Again, it's not that I find that heavy jacks hold up well to being ripped on by a Carn; he does the job reasonably well unless dice just screw him. The Angel is, with moderately good luck, capable of crippling if not killing an enemy heavy. I'm not having a problem with damage output. What I'm having a problem with is point efficiency; my Carn can erase a jack, but will then be charged and killed or crippled by another heavy. That'd be great, except that there are 3 enemy heavies for every two I have on the table, and a good number of those are also stacked up with special rules for which I have no analog.

[Malkav13]

With Typhon and the Carnivean, and even the Nyss Sorceress, it isn't just the spray that you are paying for. It is the range and mobility that they have too. Typhon can charge something, and then make up to two more sprays against other targets. The carnivean has assualt, allowing him to effectively charge and spray as well.
The Nyss Sorceress is fast, and can do a ride by spray, allowing her to reposition after her attack.
So, it isn't just a spray, but the abiltiy to move far, and then spray that we are paying for I think.

[belotelov]

If only shredders cost 3 and have spray :) Mmm...tasty.

[Lazlo]

If only shredders cost 3 and have spray :) Mmm...tasty.

So, like a 3 point beast with
SPD 5, STr 6, MAT 5, RAT 6, DEF 12, ARM 18

18 health

A SP 8, ROF 1, POW 10 attack with Powerful Attack

Something like that?

[Aedric]

Ya, that was for the win. How is that bad? Knockdowns and stationary are a bit more abundant now as they are easier to shake off in that players own turn.


I turn 2'd a very good player with the Carny. I assault charged a model in front of Haley, boosted attack hit exactly them boosted damaged and Trip 6'd it. Well worth the shock and awe from my opponent. It was great. Still look for the assault whenever possible.


Of course, they are even worse. With assault his threat range is now 19" and ignore cover and models in melee are all hit now. bye bye swordsmen, damage to lock/caster, and hello incubi.

Sprays are wowee wowee better especially since many have more range, all ignore cover and melee, and from what I hear shhhh the new templates are wider and will be rounded at the end.

There not really rounded.

http://www.privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?t=4348

Very nice templates for under 10$ though.

[joedj]

I find in my Trolls that my RAT 4-5 sprays (Scattergunners, Borka, Winter Troll) all rely on some type of knockdown or stationary effect on the enemy first in order to be even remotely good. When I do get a bunch of models kd-ed or frozen the sprays are amazing.

My Legion army has far fewer knockdown/stationary options, so my Carnivean's/Hellion's low RAT 4 suffers even greater. I'd even consider, maybe? paying 3 pts each for either my Shredders or my Harriers if they could power attack slam small/medium bases (Rabid slams or Auto-hit slams, yeah! Especially after the Seraph-slam loss). Though this would be rules-adjusting them to too much like my Trolls?

side note: My Soldier needs something 'Glide'-like, otherwise he needs to lose the model wings.

[alchahest]

I don't want shredders to be any better/more expensive. they are perfect as they are :(

[YabaBaga]

If the premium isn't solely due to the spray, would you mind explaining the price of the highly versatile Feral Warpwolf with that logic?

Because without that versatility you're left with a SPD 6 heavy with ARM 16 and attacks with P+S of 15, 14, 14. How much would you pay for that? :)

[UBomb]

Cygnar player here.

I was playing a LOE player who was using pThag. His battle group was Reak, Seraph and Typhon.

I have been hearing from LOE players that Typhon is ether overcost or needs more Health/Armor and to this point have not really paid it much mind.

With a Single Timebomb from eHaley I was able to take it and seraph down with three Precursor knights a piece under the ua.

I think it needs 1 more armor and 4-5 more heath boxes.

[ArtificialDecaySynthesis]

Cygnar player here.

I was playing a LOE player who was using pThag. His battle group was Reak, Seraph and Typhon.

I have been hearing from LOE players that Typhon is ether overcost or needs more Health/Armor and to this point have not really paid it much mind.

With a Single Timebomb from eHaley I was able to take it and seraph down with three Precursor knights a piece under the ua.

I think it needs 1 more armor and 4-5 more heath boxes.
you're a true bro for admitting that that.

[Neutralyze]

Cygnar player here.

I was playing a LOE player who was using pThag. His battle group was Reak, Seraph and Typhon.

I have been hearing from LOE players that Typhon is ether overcost or needs more Health/Armor and to this point have not really paid it much mind.

With a Single Timebomb from eHaley I was able to take it and seraph down with three Precursor knights a piece under the ua.

I think it needs 1 more armor and 4-5 more heath boxes.

props to you for coming out and showing people that we dont need just nerfs

[Necra-Chi]

On topic, assault kommandos now get to pay 1 pt for an extra dude with a flamethrower. And can have 3, putting them at 13 man unit with 11 pts. Even better still, their flamers don't hurt their own unit, and they blow up if killed, which also doesn't hurt their own unit. So maybe a spray attack DOES cost 1 point?

[ArtificialDecaySynthesis]

if anything it's less, because those sprays are a point for a guy whose spray doesn't backfire on his bros.

[Necra-Chi]

I thought it was comparable because a spray on a legion beast cannot backfire on itself either. :)

But now I wish Typhon exploded in a 5" AOE of fire when destroyed.

[Galitlan]

While I am shure we are paying a premium for sprays with fury. It has been worth it every time I have played. The fact that my opponates caster has to stay that much farther back because of spray assasination runs is nice. Charging up and killing the support behind the jack/beasts while still ripping up my targets is amazing.

Honestly lately I have really wished Typhon had pathfinder. So many games I have been able to hide him in forest spraying out at targets with little or no way for them to get him. Was able to get Mulg the other day to come after Typhon in a forest. I spent two turns moving in the forest spraying Mulg almost dead before a shredder went rabid killing Mulg.

[Soulblighter]

The spray never seems to do anything when I use the Carnivean. Its only RAT4 so it misses more often than it hits. Yes we can buff its RAT but the Carnivean should not have the cost of our buffs included in his own cost. All that does is make the Carnivean unappealing with any warlock that cant buff his RAT. I would be perfectly happy with the Carnivean if it just received a RAT boost.

[blitzmonkey]

The spray never seems to do anything when I use the Carnivean. Its only RAT4 so it misses more often than it hits. Yes we can buff its RAT but the Carnivean should not have the cost of our buffs included in his own cost. All that does is make the Carnivean unappealing with any warlock that cant buff his RAT. I would be perfectly happy with the Carnivean if it just received a RAT boost.

I've gotten 3 assassinations with the Carni's spray thus far. Not to mention a bit of damage on models here and there with him.

[Galitlan]

the carni's spray is just an extra attack on the charge and a way to pick up a few more infantry kills.

I haven't had many caster kills with sprays but nice to have the threat.

[alchahest]

I've picked up a few caster kills with the spray. 10" Pow14, ignoring intervening models and obstacles, and it's boostable. it is a wonderful tool.

[psychichobo]

I've never really found the spray useful in Mk1 with the Niv, and tbh I probably won't in Mk2 either. Having said that, being able to actually use it every time I charge instead of having to choose between it and the infinitely better Toothy Maw is definitely a good thing. So we're getting a fourth attack with our big guy which can hit stuff behind whatever you charge, so it's reasonably useful. And overall, the Niv's big thing is that he's really 'ard. I've only ever seen one thing survive a Niv charge, and that was when I charged a Woldwarden and then missed with 2 of my attacks. Overconfidence eh? (Amusing, the Woldwarden proceeded to then miss with his, and we then got hit by Baldur and both knocked down. Depressing).

Also, I'm a little irked that it no longer causes a command check. Before, if you knew you couldn't get to a unit with charging, you could move your full distance, flame 'em, and make them panic. Bit situational, but at least it was there.



As for Typhon, he's a whole new kettle 'o fish. Basically, there are three reasons I take Typhon:
1. Big hard warbeast that actually knows how to hit stuff in combat and does very good damage.
2. Flinging people about is fun! Much harder to do in Mk2 though, but it's there for when you won't be able to finish off a target and thus can throw them aside for the shredders to mop up.
3. 3 spray attacks at P+S 14!? Juicy. And now he's Rat 6!

Rat 6 is pretty good odds for hitting most things. Most infantry cannot stand up to even one template with those stats, let alone 3. And he's still a big guy, takes a bit to finish him off (Though I do recognise the Advice given by the Cygnar player on how killable Typhon is, I've found that any warbeast dies with enough dedication. My Carnivean has frequently died from a single round's worth of damage. So I don't really feel he should be any more defensive, he does enough as it is).

I do feel at times we pay a lot of points for our beasts, but one-on-one ours tend to come out on top rather easily. Nothing survives a Niv charge, and Typhon's expense comes with quite frankly some of the best versatility ever.

(Although, to be fair, I use regular Lylyth as my Warlock, so her feat does mean I can leggit up to an enemy caster with Typhon and then flame the poor bugger to death rather easily^^).

[alchahest]

"probably won't in Mk2 either"

I suggest trying it out. it's responsible for a fair few caster kills already. the spray is an integral and awesome part of the carnivean.

[Neutralyze]

typhon is easy to kill. we just need to keep him safe is all.

he now hides behidn the front line just a little to hit after they have hit.

[unbanned]

props to you for coming out and showing people that we dont need just nerfs

Field Gun and 1 BL geat bear took down full Typhon. I know your sick of hearing about daaaaa bears. LOL, Khador and Skorne player hear I vote for +1 armor for Typhon

[Captain_Obvious]

I was simply amazed when I watched the Typhon single-handedly take out 9/12 Dawnguard Sentinels that were in tight formation without breaking a sweat. 12 points for the ultimate anti-infantry weapon, plus a lucky shot at a caster if your opponent gets careless...worth it imo.
However, against opponents who know what the Typhon can do, it withers quickly under concentrated ranged attacks. He got his face eaten by one shot from a Sunburst cannon and one from a Reckoner. That was very disappointing.

[Neutralyze]

Field Gun and 1 BL geat bear took down full Typhon. I know your sick of hearing about daaaaa bears. LOL, Khador and Skorne player hear I vote for +1 armor for Typhon

well to be fair thats about the average you need to kill typhon will bloodluster bears :p.