Trenchers and Sentinel

[Virgil38]

So I just wanted to establish that I am very happy with these two minor yet important changes ( point drop and shield guard). They don't make either awesome, but they make them competative with other models. Do I take a Charger for harder hits, or the Sentinel for Shield Guard? Do I take Long Gunners or Trenchers? I didn't want an auto-include, and these changes make it a tough choice, which I like in army building. And with only the GMCA being a bench warmer (I'll bring him only if I can't fit the B13), I'm one happy Cygnaran.

Thanks!

[LemmingStampede]

The Sentinel change is great for Kraye with his large base. Move out, shoot with boosted attack rolls, move back to Shield Guard him.

[admanb]

The Sentinel is now a 4-pt piece with a unique role, which is quite nice. I can't see it showing up in a ton of <35pt lists, but at 50 or more it starts to look great.

[CeltKhan]

I'm glad for the Sentinel, as now Haley can get both bodyguard and anti-light infantry in one warjack. It benefits from factional bonuses and provides protection from Eiryss, which is an especial worry for Haley.

[Professor Lust]

I'm glad for the Sentinel, as now Haley can get both bodyguard and anti-light infantry in one warjack. It benefits from factional bonuses and provides protection from Eiryss, which is an especial worry for Haley.

Yeah I see the sent with shield guard helping Haley and Nemo the most.

Shield guard really only helps those casters who are more spellslingers than fighters.

[Amarel]

Yeah I see the sent with shield guard helping Haley and Nemo the most.

Shield guard really only helps those casters who are more spellslingers than fighters.
Gives pCaine a safer place to Flash to, and also Jr. another worthwhile option. I'm really happy with it now (as happy as I was when I saw the Hunter had gained Parry, in fact).

[sniggles]

I disagree, I see nemo and Haley liking the sent for stationary zone coverage, but I think that the only models this shield guard ability helps are our melée heavy caster, eStryker

sure shield guard could (sigh......does) bring back a turtlesque list, but nobody wants that.

Nope, I think I'll field the senty w/ marshalls, junior or Stryker. I mean the sent is just about the best ranged defence we've got right

[Creaux]

I also agree that shield guard has a place with our fellows who are gonna take a punch or two. Either Darius or eStryker could certainly use a shot or two, here or there, deflected. With eStryker, it does sort of rub the deflection "warrior only" in your face, but ARM 18 taking the hit ain't shabby.

Also, I really like trenchers and longgunners being equivalent, both with the 6/10 and the RAT 5. Good stuff.

I still marvel how small brush strokes mean so much in this game. Surely, it makes sense, but the psychological impact far exceeds the in-a-vacuum bonus from the rules difference.

[sniggles]

The trenchers at 6/10 neato too, I've never really been able to play them to their full potential, just a smoke wall that eventually gets the charge and does something, fires a volley or two, or tarpits and gets mauled.

Less points is good, but I'm still gonna wait to field them regularly until I see the rules/stats for the commandos. But at the same time you can still get alot utility out of a nine pt unit (min+ua).

All in all I'm pleasently pleased by the edit

[Arkady]

I'm really happy with it now (as happy as I was when I saw the Hunter had gained Parry, in fact).
At the very least, it has a unique role now. The gun is still a joke (I was hoping it'd get suppressive fire), but shield guard is good enough. As for the hunter, parry is nice, but it still doesn't do anything to mitigate the cost/sucky gun imbalance.

[admanb]

At the very least, it has a unique roll now. The gun is still a joke (I was hoping it'd get suppressive fire), but shield guard is good enough. As for the hunter, parry is nice, but it still doesn't do anything to mitigate the cost/sucky gun imbalance.

Suppressive fire would be bad, because it would completely overlap with the TCG.

[Arkady]

Suppressive fire would be bad, because it would completely overlap with the TCG.
TCG sucks, who cares?

It's more of an overlap with the Cyclone, and in light of that I'm glad we got shield guard instead. Still not going to make me field it a lot, but at least it's not a never-include model anymore. It has its niche and I'm happy for it. Now let's hope GMCA, TCG and TCC get the same treatment, and Kraye gets arcane barrage back.


edit: Thanks tech, I did mean GMCA. :o

[Defenstrator]

Ok the TCG and TCC I can see, but what's wrong with the ATGM?

[Techcasualty]

i think he intended to say GMCA

[Virgil38]

I don't think you're going to see a change with the TCG and the TCC. The TCG is not amazing by any stretch of the imagination, but at 2 points it serves its purpose and especially in pairs. Same with the TCC. I personally don't feel it is worth the 3 points, but they do get rifle shots with the cannon fire, and the argument for "3 points for 3 trenchers" is one that I see PP holding their ground on. At best it'll get another point of POW, but I doubt it.

And as for the GMCA... well... give him back true sight as arcane precision just adds another random ability that they were trying to avoid having a glut of in the game anyway. That and he actually can stay competative.

[n00buaddib]

Once again, I'm new to Cygnar but I've played Menoth (and owned Khador) for some time now. And I can't tell you how drastically my win/lose ratio improved when I got my first Devout. In another week, I got me another to field with pFeora and it was even more awesome. In mk II it got nerfed a bit (the -2 mat is a big deal, but I think it's more fair now) but one is still an autoinclude with any caster. 2..probably never again.

And now, Cygnar gets a jack, that can actually support 'stand back and shoot/cast' casters in more ways then just shielding him from incoming ranged attacks (which is huge btw. If your weak 'behind the lines' caster is taking more then 1 solid hit each round, you're probably doing something wrong but that one shot often happens to land, due to your sloppiness or opponent commiting quite some resources to it. Haley, Nemo, Caine (which I don't like), Siege,.... God damn, this is a dream come true. A devout that doesn't have spell barier (I forgot to use it most of the time anyway, and it rarely mattered), that is shooty oriented instead of cc?! For one point cheaper then Devout?! That's crazy and a total autoinclude for me. :D

Merry christmas indeed ^^

[mrhuettel]

i used to bring sentinels to most games in mk.1 - especially with the atgm ua. it has only seen one fielding in mk.2 but now: that is completely different. the one thing we needed was a bodyguard other than a bokur - ideally a bodyguard with ranged attack abilities. and: we got it!
i'll be fielding one tomorrow to protect either brisbane or haley or even strangewayes.
has anyone thought about putting one into a unit of gun mages just to protect them (especially the ua) on their way to the enemy warcaster? or is that just too much - a hunter and a sentinel on the argm :) ?

[Virgil38]

I wouldn't waste the Sentinel on the ATGM UA. The beauty of Shield Guard is that it works on any friendly, thus you don't have to assign it to the person you are defending. A major plus for me. Put something that'll benifit from the UA on him, like two Defenders (which is insanely fun btw).

[knight_actual]

Our UAs in units are not all that tough.

This guy's rng 10 gun allow it to work along side or just behind our main line combat units to protect the officers.... Stormblade, trenchers, finn, Swordknight, black 13th.

beautiful.

[phreaker187]

6/9 for trenchers is still meh to me. It's only 1 pt cheaper than before, now add in UA, porters, and all the bells and whistles you're STILL only 1 point cheaper than before. I'd say you can bring a min unit now and be okay, but a maxed out unit is still out of the question.

[Professor Lust]

6/9 for trenchers is still meh to me. It's only 1 pt cheaper than before, now add in UA, porters, and all the bells and whistles you're STILL only 1 point cheaper than before. I'd say you can bring a min unit now and be okay, but a maxed out unit is still out of the question.

I would say that that is all a matter of what else you have in your force and what size of a game you are playing and whether you are playing scenario or just caster kill.

[Techcasualty]

6/9 for trenchers is still meh to me. It's only 1 pt cheaper than before, now add in UA, porters, and all the bells and whistles you're STILL only 1 point cheaper than before. I'd say you can bring a min unit now and be okay, but a maxed out unit is still out of the question.

lets put it this way

1 point is the difference between my opponents jack getting to charge or not. 1 point is the difference between my opponents jack destroying my jack. 1 point can be the difference between the manhunter living or not

[knight_actual]

1 point is not an insignificant discount.

However, it is still non-expendable unit that will be called upon to sacrefice quite often.

[Marius]

I see the new Sentinel as a Devout with a gun. To me, that sounds pretty awesome. I'd be taking him for his defensive capabilities to keep other models safe by putting his ARM 18 *** in the way. The fact that he can also put some shots out is a bonus. Sure, it's a complete design philosophy change for the Sentinel, but given that he did what he was meant to do badly and now the Cyclone does it a lot better (albeit for more points), i think giving the Sentinel this new role is awesome. Also, Cygnar now rivals Mercs for access to Shield Guard models. Variety is always good :).

[Virgil38]

Agreed. The Sentinel is now a really nice support jack that can fire a few shots to help soften up the enemy, but really is there to act as a shield. For me it'll be an auto-include on 50+ lists.

Trenchers are now a specialty list me for, though I can see more general use with a 6 man unit +UA with porters if I want to up the points a bit.

[Kenjiro]

I applaud PP for the changes but even at 6/10 they wont leave the shelf.

The sentinel I'll have to play with as it might be useful now. It's not the changes I wanted for the model but might just make it worth 4pts.

[Lucas~]

I guess I'm just another Protectorate player totally jealous of the Sentinel. I'm inclined to take a Devout in just about any army so I can play the caster more agressively. He does a great job protecting me from eyriss and whatnot, but he often spends the whole game standing there taking shots. The loss of the Spell Shield is big but being able to effectively guard the caster and still put out damage is pretty awesome.

[Fryerdan]

I do like what this could do for pstryker or jr. You could send jr to a flank with a sent and be a pretty effective blocker with arcane shield on him.

Using him to bodyguard pstryker on feat turn with arcane shield could allow you to get much more into the fray in order to toss down equake for your assault and then not be too worried about getting sniped on the counter strike.

[Arkady]

Arcane Shield on a sentinel? What an utter waste of points. A savvy opponent would simply ignore those 7 points of flankers because they have such pitiful offensive output it's not worth the effort to destroy them. He would just laugh, own you with his superior forces, and then ask if you want to play another game without a 7 point handicap this time around.

[Techcasualty]

indeed. why would you do that. If you really wanted to waste that kind of point value, atleast make it a GMCA

[DragonWolf]

. Do I take a Charger for harder hits, or the Sentinel for Shield Guard? Do I take Long Gunners or Trenchers?
:confused: I don't know, to me these questions are still no brainers. Charger everytime and Nyss everytime. I'll even take Boomhowler instead of Trenchers.

4pts for a small def buff with no damage output is still weak and 6/10 is no better than 7/11 for what the unit brings.

[Dino-Czar]

:confused: I don't know, to me these questions are still no brainers. Charger everytime and Nyss everytime. I'll even take Boomhowler instead of Trenchers.

4pts for a small def buff with no damage output is still weak and 6/10 is no better than 7/11 for what the unit brings.

Small def buff? I'd much rather take a CRA to the Sentinel than my warcaster. Hell, I'd rather force my opponent to split up his CRA into two groups than take it all in one, and thats ignoring things like That Elf or re-centering AoEs off target.

I have to say that the Sentinel is a perfectly viable option now. I'm very pleased with it.

[Fryerdan]

I didn't mean to use the sent with jr to assault a flank I meant to use it to shore up a flank of your own. Even without high damage output these two could stymie an otherwise nasty attack targetted at your squishies. The fact that an arm 21 light jack that can charge slam and headbutt is in the way will serve to deter or delay many common flanking attacks

[Professor Lust]

:confused: I don't know, to me these questions are still no brainers. Charger everytime and Nyss everytime. I'll even take Boomhowler instead of Trenchers.

4pts for a small def buff with no damage output is still weak and 6/10 is no better than 7/11 for what the unit brings.

I don't agree with you completely. Only time that is a truism (if ever) is if you are running Caine1 or Stryker1 and maybe siege. Those casters are the most merc friendly in Cygnar.

Nyss and Boomhowler don't ever get in faction buffs, so they don't work with faction feats. Are Nyss and boomhowler good units? yes.

BUT.....

The Nyss don't really scare me, as a Chain lightning from Haley1 or Nemo1 eats them, the B13 eats them, ATGMs etc eat the Nyss. The nyss' only real benefit is hunter. Moreover, once cylena is dead they lose CRA and with screening gone its a lot easier to kill characters.

As to the trollkins, Other than Boomhowler, his buddies die to Rat 5 pow 10s let alone pow 12s. Yes they make great tar pits with a 50/50 tough but no, I am not going to always take them.

As to the sentinel vs charger, they serve completely different roles. If you want damage take a charger. If you want protection, take a sent.

Honestly the more I think about it, a sent works really well with Stryker, especially stryker2 who wants to be up at the front lines and now they don't have fear Pistol wraiths, Widowmakers etc.

[Reemule]

For me the sentinel just became a auto include for eCaine and for Kraye.

eCaine never really worked out for me as he had the 5 jack points, but a charger he always had with him was only 4 points. In my mind, he now buys a Sent for 3 points. And it can guard him, the Squire, and the gobo.

And Kraye always seemed to go down in a barrage of fire. He needed to push his focus out to have his jack perform, he was too protected to justify AS all the time. Now he need not fear getting shot as much.

[knight_actual]

urr... sent is 4 points?

[Arkady]

urr... sent is 4 points?

Read his post again. 5 jack points - 4 for charger - 4 for sentinel = you're paying 3 points for the Sentinel.

[TsavongLah]

I think he meant that after he buys his obligatory Charger he still has a 'jack point left over, which effectively makes the Sentinel a 3pt 'jack.

EDIT: Beaten to the punch.

[Blaque]

I thought it was okay just to take an effect PC 4 Defender and be done with it myself, but I guess preference on that. I'm only talking on theorymachine here.

By the way, apparently I got a hold of a bunch of Cygnar stuff recently. So umm, yeah. Hi.

And stuff.

[Falcon42]

Sorry, where's the link to the updates?

[Amarel]

Sorry, where's the link to the updates?
No link - the updates are in the new Prime (that some people got early due to Gencon pre-ordering).

Hi Blaque, welcome to the Swans :p.