Skorne Heavy Warbeasts and Animi

[tensteam]

When suggesting and making changes we should take account all models currently available to ensure everything is both worth to use and fun. Currently we have a single heavy warbeast (Gladiator) that is very well worth the points, but the other ones (BB, Rhinodon) are lacking. This has much to do with the animi our warbeasts have.

So my proposal is to switch animi one more time to get three warbeasts that are worth using.

* Titan Gladiator gets Train Wreck as the previous version had
* Titan Bronzeback keeps Amuck, but it is reworded so that affected model can move 1" every time it kills a model and not limited to having enemies in its melee range
* Titan Bronzeback gets Leadership: +1 SPD for Titans back
* Rhinodon gets Rush animus
(* Rhinodon gets Horn attack back, but Tail attack is worded so that it cannot be used on a turn Rhinodon charges or slams)

With these changes I could see three warbeasts all worth using. By giving Rush to Rhinodon means that to get the longest threat ranges on Gladiator you'd need to field all three heavies, but every one of those would be still solid on his own. Also any combination of two would work well.

The last suggestion is to limit the threat range of Rhino a bit and also to give it more flavour with the Horn. Actually its threat range wouldn't be at all higher than in MkI anyway, but the change would put Rhino on the line with other heavies.

Your thoughts?

[Indragnir]

When suggesting and making changes we should take account all models currently available to ensure everything is both worth to use and fun. Currently we have a single heavy warbeast (Gladiator) that is very well worth the points, but the other ones (BB, Rhinodon) are lacking. This has much to do with the animi our warbeasts have.

So my proposal is to switch animi one more time to get three warbeasts that are worth using.

* Titan Gladiator gets Train Wreck as the previous version had
* Titan Bronzeback keeps Amuck, but it is reworded so that affected model can move 1" every time it kills a model and not limited to having enemies in its melee range
* Titan Bronzeback gets Leadership: +1 SPD for Titans back
* Rhinodon gets Rush animus
(* Rhinodon gets Horn attack back, but Tail attack is worded so that it cannot be used on a turn Rhinodon charges or slams)

With these changes I could see three warbeasts all worth using. By giving Rush to Rhinodon means that to get the longest threat ranges on Gladiator you'd need to field all three heavies, but every one of those would be still solid on his own. Also any combination of two would work well.

The last suggestion is to limit the threat range of Rhino a bit and also to give it more flavour with the Horn. Actually its threat range wouldn't be at all higher than in MkI anyway, but the change would put Rhino on the line with other heavies.

Your thoughts?

That's the perfect solution.Truly.

[Razhem]

I don't think the horn and tail not being used on charge is coming back simply because it was clunky before.

[Solarhaphaeriom]

Not bad. Though I kind of hate losing even more of our denial abilities.

[dboeren]

Not bad. Though I kind of hate losing even more of our denial abilities.

If you're speaking of Subdue, I think it was already greatly lowered in utility once it was changed from model/unit to model. You used to be able to catch 1-2 guys in a unit to affect them all. Now you cannot, plus it has the problem it has always had of 5" being a rather short range for the purpose of stopping charges from units. You could do it though if you were able to get at least part of the unit in range. Now that this is gone, I don't mind replacing the rest of the even more situational current version of the animus.

[Pantheon]

If you're speaking of Subdue, I think it was already greatly lowered in utility once it was changed from model/unit to model. You used to be able to catch 1-2 guys in a unit to affect them all. Now you cannot, plus it has the problem it has always had of 5" being a rather short range for the purpose of stopping charges from units. You could do it though if you were able to get at least part of the unit in range. Now that this is gone, I don't mind replacing the rest of the even more situational current version of the animus.

Indeed

The animus was tough to use in mk i and in mk II it has become an afterthought.



Give the rhinodon a one cost animus that gives him a horn charge attack. Fun animus!

[tensteam]

I don't think the horn and tail not being used on charge is coming back simply because it was clunky before.
My suggestion was that you couldn't use the tail at all during the turn you are charging/slamming. That should make it a bit more clear. But if it isn't possible, I wouldn't mind if Rhino got the horn attack (usable only when charging as a charge attack) and went up to 9 points either.

Anyway that last part was just a little flavour fix for the Rhino and can be ignored. The other part (animi) is the most important. One of the main ideas behind the idea is to get rid of Subdue which in MkII isn't any kind of functional denial tool at all. It wasn't that great in MkI either, but the current wording just sucks. Those changes and all three of our melee heavies would have a good animus and be worth using.

And oh. Cannoneer could have 3" radius with Subdue and then our heavies would be about as good as possible regarding animi. Molik Karn might need something on other department though.

[Solarhaphaeriom]

If you're speaking of Subdue, I think it was already greatly lowered in utility once it was changed from model/unit to model. You used to be able to catch 1-2 guys in a unit to affect them all. Now you cannot, plus it has the problem it has always had of 5" being a rather short range for the purpose of stopping charges from units. You could do it though if you were able to get at least part of the unit in range. Now that this is gone, I don't mind replacing the rest of the even more situational current version of the animus.

True enough. Easy way to fix that though...

[tensteam]

After some thinking I tweaked my proposal a bit. This should tackle the most potential problems.

* Titan Gladiator gets Train Wreck as the previous version had but free slam is replaced with Pathfinder during slamming (Stampede)
* Titan Bronzeback keeps Amuck, but it is reworded so that affected model can move 1" every time it kills a model and not limited to having enemies in its melee range
* Titan Bronzeback gets Leadership: +1 SPD for Titans back
* Rhinodon gets Rush animus

Now Gladiator would have direct access to Pathfinder so it has at least a moderate threat range also in terrain. All three beasts would be even better balanced and have good synergy if used together in any combination.

In addition one idea was that Rush animus could be reworded to NOT grant Pathfinder. That would reduce its effectiveness a bit, but it would still be a superb animus. It would have an effect on Trolls too, but Axer would still be a great warbeast and they could get Pathfinder access from some other source if necessary.


Lastly Rhinodon could get Horn attack (usable only when charging) back if the changes make it look like almost 9 point beast. That would be a good addition then.

[Hasten]

* Titan Gladiator gets Train Wreck as the previous version had but free slam is replaced with Pathfinder during slamming (Stampede)

Did you mean your previous version (i.e. boosted slam attack roll and +2" movement when slamming) or the last update's version (i.e. boosted collateral, etc)?


* Titan Bronzeback keeps Amuck, but it is reworded so that affected model can move 1" every time it kills a model and not limited to having enemies in its melee range

You know, I wonder how useful having Overtake instead of Amuck would be on a non-reach model like the Bronzeback. It seems like you're not usually going to want to move much if you still have models engaging you, since you'll likely be taking Free Strikes. How do you see having Overtake over the current Amuck will increase his utility?

For what it's worth, I really like your proposed changes overall. In particular the Subdue->Rush swap on the Rhino, and the Gladiator getting a version of Train Wreck that gives him enough range to be usable on his own, as well as helping other models slam better.

-H

[lawyerpants]

Why don't they stay with subdue and just have it be "This model can not be charged for one round" and cost like 3 fury (Or 4).

[Higgen]

I'm confused as to why you want to put the Speed enhancing animus on the heavy that needs it least. If you do that you're limiting the Gladiator to his measly 7" threat range unless you're playing certain Warlocks or include the Rhinodon as well. It's a natural fit on the Gladiator because he's the one who needs it most (Along with Cannoneer and BB).

[gaminguy]

Why don't they stay with subdue and just have it be "This model can not be charged for one round" and cost like 3 fury (Or 4).

I like that idea. I'm not sure it's worth 3 fury since it can't help anyone but the Rhino and the 'lock (and the Shaman if you have one) but it fits nicely with the look of the model itself. He does have those great big back fins to flare to make himself look bigger and scarier, why not have an animus to match? "You weren't seriously going to attack me, now were you?"


I'm confused as to why you want to put the Speed enhancing animus on the heavy that needs it least. If you do that you're limiting the Gladiator to his measly 7" threat range unless you're playing certain Warlocks or include the Rhinodon as well. It's a natural fit on the Gladiator because he's the one who needs it most (Along with Cannoneer and BB).

Isn't the BB speed 5? Did they change it again while I wasn't looking?

[alexandyr]

Really like the idea of Subdue as polarity field - but that might be a bit too powerful for any of our warlocks to be able to cast.

Subdue COST 3 RNG SELF This model cannot be targeted by a charge made by a model in its front arc. Subdue lasts for one round.

Pretty awesome.

[alexandyr]

I had seen some people suggest subdue as an offensive animus that prevented charges and power attacks from target model/unit - pretty limited on a FURY 4 warbeast though, so it would have to be 2 points, which might be too good on a warlock.

[ArchonXVI]

Whatever happened to Skorne being the faction that had lots of really, really /hard/ models?

How about one of those three having an arcane-shield equivalent- +3 armor for one round on one model. Fits the Skorne theme pretty damn well, and mirrors the Mauler.

[alexandyr]

After reading some other threads, here's my animus mashup suggestion:

Gladiator: Keep Rush. It is great on him.
Bronzeback: Subdue - Range 6 - Offensive - cost 2 - target model/unit cannot charge or make special attacks for one round.
Rhinodon: Amuck - Range Self - cost 2 - immediately perform *Attack thresher
Canonneer: Keep Diminish.

With FURY 5 the Bronzeback might actually be able to hit with an offensive animus from time to time. The limited range keeps it from being totally unreasonable on a warlock (but still good in an emergency)

[tensteam]

The only way I'd see Subdue to stay is making it offensive so I could agree with the previous post. Fixed Amuck would be good too, because even if not moving out of melee range to avoid free strikes, the move while staying in would help to catch more enemies after the one is killed.

[tensteam]

I'm confused as to why you want to put the Speed enhancing animus on the heavy that needs it least. If you do that you're limiting the Gladiator to his measly 7" threat range unless you're playing certain Warlocks or include the Rhinodon as well. It's a natural fit on the Gladiator because he's the one who needs it most (Along with Cannoneer and BB).
I don't think we should have all warbeasts with very similar threat ranges. Rhinodon might well be the one that is faster and Gladiator the one that is durable. Also when including other warbeasts and/or warlocks it would make also Gladiator faster.

The point is to have three warbeasts that all are attractive choices. Currenty Gladiator is way above others so some changes are needed. If some other way would make Rhino and BB usable I'm all for it too.

[Rynth]

Bronzeback: Subdue - Range 6 - Offensive - cost 2 - target model/unit cannot charge or make special attacks for one round.


Mini-Rebuke? Skorne would have no problem w/ that but all the other factions might.

[alexandyr]

Yes hence the 6" range so that it would mostly be used to prevent things from charging you that could probably just walk up and hit you anyways. Otherwise it would be far too good on warlocks (might still be).