Blackbanes Ghost Raiders

[PiousVanDorn]

Hi Guys,

Got a minimum unit of these for Christmas (thanks to the missus :D) - should i bump them to 10? Any tips for them? Is anyone using them :p

thanks

PvD

[Jyggdrasil]

Oooh! I am interested is tips/tricks as well. I have 10 of these guys in the painting que waiting for me to get over the disappointingly modeled 'flame' effects

[RuneGrey]

Even if you're just planning on running the minimum unit, you should probably have some additional raiders on hand if you want to run Blackbane to his best effect. Because Blackbane himself has reanimate, he effectively adds to his unit every time you cut the enemy to ribbons - so having an additional 2-4 models over the unit size that you are intending on running isn't a bad idea.

Remember that Incorporeal is an excellent way of avoiding attacks, especially if your opponent does not have a lot of magical weapons to throw around at you. They basically require warcaster attention to deal with in some armies, and I suggest running them hard and getting them into a position where you can threaten the enemy even if you're not engaging.

Run them into melee with ranged units to keep them from shooting, get the +4 in melee bonus against ranged and magic attacks, and get the chance to free strike + create more Ghost Raiders if the enemy tries to disengage.

Excellent when run with Pistol Wraiths, which you probably will need when you come up against the Ghost Raider's natural enemy - Arianna and Holt. These two you should try and steer clear of if possible, or go right down their throat if not.

Even if you are going to lose the unit, getting off hits on jacks and solos will always light them on fire in Mk. II, providing an irritating source of continuous damage. Due to not being able to camp focus against fire damage, a burning warcaster is in a bad position - if you can get the charge off and hit with even one raider, you'll be seriously hampering your foe for a turn or two unless you are bad on the fire upkeep rolls. Light jacks and some brands of heavies also take damage every turn from fire, so light stuff up!

Remember to keep Blackbane safe. As long as he's up, you can keep replenishing your raiders via killing enemy warrior models. Blackbane + Tartarus on either flank means that your opponent has nowhere to hide his foot troops - they'll be either Banes or Raiders sooner or later.

[Temoinlanuit]

I've been running these guys a lot. I like em. Not sure if they'll ever be top tier, but we don't even know what SR2010 will look like.

Gonna be quick.. I'll write more tonight if needed.

Incorporeal is much cheaper than it was in Mk. At the very least, we're not paying as much to get it on these guys. Don't overprice the incorporeal factor - that is, don't dedicate too many resources to protecting (or securing) their incorporeal as a defensive mechanism. It's much better as a techy piece - maneuvering, being a nuisance, denying charges, etc.

A magic attack from ATGMs, etc. will scrap pretty much any other unit as well. So try not to think of magic attacks as instant death against these guys.. they're not really using their incorporeal to survive, as much as to force tempo.

[blakeh1]

Even if you're just planning on running the minimum unit, you should probably have some additional raiders on hand if you want to run Blackbane to his best effect. Because Blackbane himself has reanimate, he effectively adds to his unit every time you cut the enemy to ribbons - so having an additional 2-4 models over the unit size that you are intending on running isn't a bad idea.

Blackbane grants it to the unit, so any model in the unit that kills creates a new Ghost Raider. Theoretically with a min unit you could create 6 guys in one turn if they all kill. They can easily do this when running Deneghra or other casters with DEF debuffs.

They are a great anti infantry/harrassment unit. Some lists will have no way outside their caster to deal with them, while other lists (think Black 13th, or Exemplars errants) will have no problem dispatching them

A min unit is ok, but I find it too vulnerable unless you can keep them safe and get off a first charge on enemy infantry to create more. A 10 man unit is much more durable and harder to wipe out.

Another thing to remember is in MKII they don't lose Incoporeal unless they actually make an attack, so you can leave Blackbane incorporeal while the rest of the unit attacks.

[RuneGrey]

Might as well ask : I presume 'Granted' means that the entire unit gains it for the game? Or is that 'tactics'? I know there's one that goes away when the modle that provides the ability goes away, and another that stays all the time, but I can never remember which is which.

[Pseudog]

Granted goes away when the model bites the dust :(

[blakeh1]

Tactics I think remains. Either way the wording of it is "While this model is in play, models in its unit gain Reanimation." so it goes away if Blackbane does

[Rave0183]

Love blackbanes. My vote...upgrade to 10...and buy another couple blisters. I have 14 currently. There have been games where I never exceed my original 10...others when they do extremely well, and I kick myself for not having more models.

Aside from a couple outstanding units. Dealing with this threat will take Warcaster attention, And that's a good thing. They aren't the hardest hitting unit, or the most accurate to hit, so choose targets well. Personally I use them as a buffer for Gaspy surrounding him so people can't get the charge off. No room for a base. I have commonly done the same if I am running only a single heavy jacks I want to protect. Deathjack for example you will commonly find in my lists surrounded by blackbanes.So much fun. Probably run them with gaspy the most, scything touch helps, and I have had them put some pain on a parasited jack when the situation presents itself.

The unit suffers from the same issue the Revenant crew does, just a little worse. Blackbane NEEDS to be protected. Rarely will I ever get him into melee unless it's a higher priority solo I am running him into melee range with, for his higher Mat.

Get more, they're great. Not a single caster they don't work well with...they are a general nuisance..not too expensive...and if that attention is on them, then your trusty banes (either flavor) will live longer.

I ha

[Tuckers]

I just ordered a full unit myself. I think the models look not bad, and with some epoxy work could be really really awesome. Not to mention, the fact they are incorp with magic weapon, continual fire, and make more makes them sweet in my book. I am just thinking of them with termy...Mmm tough rolls...

[sharktooth]

Hey. I know it's an old thread, but I want to post about a recent success with my favorite fiery friends. I ran them along side some Nyss Hunters, and whatever I couldn't kill with the ghosties the Nyss took care of. They are a great support unit, and quite frankly a good unit to be supported!

[Sanctjud]

3 Years, I applaud your Necromancy skills.
What do you mean by Nyss taking care of what BB don't kill?
Remember, you can't CRA into a combat.

[sharktooth]

I mean, the Blackbane's walk into back arc of target unit. The Nyss Run or charge and weapon master katana their faces. New blackbanes: check. Dead enemies: check. It works like a charm.

[Zizzlebit]

I've been running a max with a wraith engine. Picked up this tactic in a no quarter (can't remember the issue) where my BB stand in front of the wraith engine so he can't be charged, and than by turn two engage anything without magic attack so that they are forced to give me freestrikes or let me dictate who the wraith engine attacks. And don't forget they stay un incomp for one turn so if you free strike you can attack on your turn knowing that they will be incomp again on your opponents. It's an amazing tactic and only falls apart against magic weapon heavy armies.

On another note I have kicked myself for only buying 1 extra blister of these guys. One game I went over max twice. Could have had around 18 of them running around the field swarming my opponent like Return of the King. Need to buy two more Blisters just for this.

[Sanctjud]

I mean, the Blackbane's walk into back arc of target unit. The Nyss Run or charge and weapon master katana their faces. New blackbanes: check. Dead enemies: check. It works like a charm.

So you are spending 19 points to kill what though, and over 2 turns?
I can see it working, but I think it takes too long.

[Happy Scrappy Hero Pup]

I've been running a max with a wraith engine. .

thanks for bringing this up! I was planning to try it with 2 WEs :)

Also, it seems to me if you can stealth the BBs they effectively become immune to many spells as well - being immune to blast and automatically missed by direct damage.

[blakeh1]

A great jamming unit, but they do have other uses as well

I like them the most with Skarre. They can walk (or charge f you can get LOS) through most armies to get at the caster on her feat turn, Dark Guidance helps them hit and the +5 STR makes their hits hurt more, plus you set the caster on fire. Doesn't work as well against armies with tons of magic weapons like the protectorate

For a similar reason with Deneghra as well with her feat and debuffs. plus she has ghost walk so they won't take free strikes from those that do have magic weapons

I wouldn't rely too much on reanimation. Its nice, but in case you lose Blackbane, or run into soul denial like self sacrifice you shouldn;t count on it swelling your ranks. Plus they do their job just running and engaging anyway to jam things up

And of course the Bile Thrall tactic where you run up and engage with Blackbanes, then bile come up and purge next turn without harming any that survived the round

[sharktooth]

So you are spending 19 points to kill what though, and over 2 turns?
I can see it working, but I think it takes too long.

No, see, I only use 6 of each. That totals at 13 models, including the pistol wraith I run with them. They can kill in one turn, too. Raider run up, wham, and I put a few arrows/ katana holes in my targets' front arcs.

[JinMoonlight]

Blackbane's are one of my favorite units for a number of reasons.

- EDenny's tier list is excellent for scenario play, and they are a big part of it.

- They are fast, move though everything, and some armies simply can't handle them.

- Even in a jack/beast heavy army where they aren't going to do much in the way of damage, just running them into opposing army is psychological impediment. I've had them completely neuter a group of kayazy assassins without even attacking.

I've never regretted having them on the table and they almost always make one of my lists in a two list tournament.

[leeoaks]

They have been a valuable asset and a pain in the *** for my opponent, I play them with Denny and they always seem to get my opponent to scratch their head.

The combination of appearing crap and being able to go where they please, seems to be a winning combo.

They zip around forcing the opponent to make a decision, hopefully there wrong one :-)

[Sanctjud]

No, see, I only use 6 of each. That totals at 13 models, including the pistol wraith I run with them. They can kill in one turn, too. Raider run up, wham, and I put a few arrows/ katana holes in my targets' front arcs.

Yea, 13 models, but I'm talking about points.
You are using 13 models to deal with how many enemy models?
Why are we not talking about a Raider...and what about running up leads to the "wham"?
What is the reason for mentioning front arcs?



- EDenny's tier list is excellent for scenario play, and they are a big part of it.
- They are fast, move though everything, and some armies simply can't handle them.

They do not move through everything unless they have ghostwalk (with respect to magical weapons and the Kriel Stone like stuff).
It is true, some armies can't 'handle' them, but any counters are HARD counters.
As to eDenny's tier...... she's good at scenario regardless, her theme list doesn't really give them any real benefit besides +2" deployment, and you need to invest in options you may not want to to reach tier 4.

[sharktooth]

Dude. Incorporeal, run through enemy lines. Hit them in back arc, and run Nyss up and hit them in face. If they have magical weapon's, use Nyss first. No offense, why do you hate them? Privateer Press isn't going to make a bad unit.

[Sanctjud]

Dude. Read the whole post, I said that they do NOT want to run past magical weapons. Also, 'hitting them in the back arc' is a WHOLE TURN away. You 'may' create headaches and are relying on a delayed return, but personally, I value results upfront in the here and now.

Finally, "Nyss first," is what I wanted to hear from you. You had originally presented your opinion pretty broadly, as if Magical weapons are not a consideration... nor that there doesn't exist spells and affects that 'strip' incorporeal from a model.

When have I said I hated Blackbanes? I mean, they are indirectly associated with my signature...my line of questioning is primarily focused on the efficiency of the role given to them.

19 points or 13 models is a significant portion of any force and I just want to know what they are accomplishing and if it's 'worth' it. Now 'worthiness' is different for everyone... but just cause it can 'work' (where 'work' could even mean winning games) doesn't mean it was cost effective.



Privateer Press isn't going to make a bad unit.

Seriously? I think Kossites are pretty bad...

[sharktooth]

Ah. Apologies. I get your opinion, I just disagree. Truce? :P

[Sanctjud]

:p :p Repeat after me: Kossites. Are. Bad. :p :p

Unless they give us Soul and Corpse tokens by the truckload, then they are OP!

On topic:
@OP: Blackbanes are a specialized first wave unit that generally have two results. Super Effective or Super Disappointing, mainly due to them being a 'trick' unit. You run them into the enemy and HOPE they don't have a counter for them... then they have options available to them.

[sharktooth]

LOL kossites are bad. (I think they count as food more than as a unit.)

[Neldar]

I've been using Blackbane as a Kraken escort. Sure, you can send those small bases to charge my colossal, but I get a free strike each time you try it. Those medium bases probably won't fit in the gaps and won't reach past my screen to hit it either.

Usually, what happens is the Satyxis Raiders bog down my opponent's front lines long enough for the Kraken to charge over the Blackbane's and destroy a few models before the Blackbane's leap past to tie things up or go for the reanimation.

Units with magical weapons and Aiyana & Holt ruin their day, but careful application of pistol wraiths, Satyxis, and Cankerworm is usually enough to keep them at bay.

[Purplecow]

Yeah, I've been doing the same thing as Neldar, though I often switch between Blackbane and blood witches for that role. Really, I've found using the ghosts to clog up lanes against other colossals to be most useful.

[Kuwanger23]

Sanctjud would like the ghost raiders more if they had banes in their title instead of revenent :p

[Sheer_Falacy]

Sanctjud would like the ghost raiders more if they had banes in their title instead of revenent :p

I think pretty much everyone would - Tartarus is a lot better than Rengrave.

Veteran leader is a dumb ability for melee infantry.

[Kuwanger23]

Or the fact that Tartarus has I think 11 rules all which can come into play in a single turn lol.

Stealth, reach, commander, undead, terror, weapon master, thresher, dark shroud, ghostly, curse, make moar banes, I think that is it. Besides his ridiculous stat line.

Ok enough loling about Tartarus. Back on topic. I was just picking on Sanctjud because it is fun. I personally love the black banes when I go against a force that lacks magic weapons. Nowadays that is tougher and tougher to come by. A lot of troll lists have the stones. Skorne players have the extoller. And with the new SR format you can have a side board to throw models like that in when you see units like black banes.

[Lamoron]

Blackbane's Ghost Raiders that worked with Tartarus... sweet Jesus...

They do seem to have taken a hit the last year, and they're getting harder and harder to justify.

[Sanctjud]

Sanctjud would like the ghost raiders more if they had banes in their title instead of revenent :p

Ummm

BlackBANES Ghost Raiders.

The 52 'Bane' list I have in my sig counts the 10 Blackbanes in the list.

The more you know! :p

[Kuwanger23]

Love it Sanct, Love it!