Baldur and Earht's Blessing

[AmonadRodrigues]

Hi all,

since i started with circle only a short time ago (Menoth s my 1st faction), this is my first post here, but i was already reading a lot here. Mostly it was helpful!

Back to the issue:

I feedbacked Baldur and told PP that Earth's Blessing is useless atm. I think they knew this, since this was discussed here several times. But i sended a solution i personally like very much and want to promote with this thread. If you like it too, please feedback it to PP.

My suggestion was to simply exchange Pathfinder with Treewalker. I think that would fit perfectly fit into his main theme and away from the style would be much more useful now as unit buff. Even Constructs may profit.

Even with that change it would be far from OP. I think it still would be one of the weaker upkeeps out there. But its atmospheric, adds an imho proper use to the spell and its very easy to implement.

What do you think?

[LEJKaya]

It's been that way a long time, I think we just got used to it.

Right now his feat is the big issue, it really needs attention so we haven't really bothered with a small change to fix EB. Its still good on fuzzy beasts and no KD for units is nice too, so I'm concentrating on getting his feat fixed as its currently in bad shape.

[bushman101]

Earth's Blessing isn't great, but still useful from time to time.

But yeah, the feat needs work

[Achiles]

We don't have to lobby for one single thing. We have known about the worthlessness that is EB for a while. personally I'm sick of having that PoS on Baldur's spell list. Now is our only chance to fix it and we should be lobbying to fix all his issues rather than just concentrating on the feat.

Treewalker is an interesting and fluffy suggestion. I like it a lot. Especially since it encourages him to use something other than Tharn. I've suggested EB grants Steady and +2ARM as a possible fix.

Stone Skin is also a problem spell. In MkI I only ever cast it on Bloodtrackers and Wolf Riders. In the Fieldt Test after the latest changes to Geomancy I have been casting it on Woldwardens or Megalith after charging but before swinging. I also sometimes have them cast it on Baldur before he teleports or walks into combat for a little extra boost that doesn't reduce his available fury. But it should be more broadly useful than those few cornercases. I should want to cast and upkeep it on a variety of units and models. Changing it is simple. SS gives +2ARM & STR and -2DEF.

We need to lobby for changes to these two spells NOW. While we have a hoipe oif having them fixed. Otherwise we may end up stuck with a spell list that half the spells are extremely weak AND the feat in it's present form. There is no reason we can't lobby for both.

[LEJKaya]

Remember now in MkII Earths Blessing is no longer faction only.
Pathfinder Gatormen or Minion warbeasts are not a bad thing to have.

The change to SS may be good though, but the -SPD has been the balancing factor to a buff to two really good stats, STR and ARM.

I get the idea that this is our one chance though, I do feedback everything even if it's not something we need to concentrate on. We do need to concentrate on the feat though. The other things are tweaks that would be better, the feat issues make baldur unplayable, at least at tournament level.

[Zyrael]

I used to be a more ardent Baldur supporter. Once I turned to being a Kromac fan in casual play and a Krueger user for competitive play he kind of fell out of rotation for me. But I can safely say he's a let down as of now.

He has great synergy with wardens and megalith but thats just a bit too limiting. I mean it SEVERELY restricts his list building.

He was never a great warlock, but buoy'd by the strength of the Sentry Stone (MK I) and a superb feat. Losing both of those... we have a better view of what he really is. A limited scope support caster... who could theoretically tangle in melee.

The Feat is the main transgression. As it stands it's one turn of Inhospitable ground and it makes little sense to any of us why baldur is less adept at terrain manipulation than Xerxis and Durgen. We have to generate a few ideas and really throw ALL of our weight behind one.

I'll start by throwing out a couple suggestions for Broken Earth.

Enemy models currently in Baldur's control area suffer -2 Def and Spd.

or

Enemy models that advance and move more than 1" and end that movement in Baldur's control area suffer a pow 14 damage roll.

or

While in Baldur's control area this turn, friendly models are considered to have cover. While within Baldur's control area, enemy models suffer -2 Spd.

As for his spells....

[Zyrael]

Earth's Blessing is a let down... it always has been niche in use, and now that we can't throw warpwolves up the field and have them still walk and kill it's even MORE pointless.

If it granted Pathfinder and Tree Walker to a model / unit, it would be a pretty solid upkeep, not great but good. (Remember Tree Walker does not make models ignore rough terrain). It's an ok idea.

Personally I always preferred the idea of just giving him Solid Ground in it's place.

Stone Skin... well if we want to broaden Baldur's beast selection the flex is gonna have to happen here. Keeping +2 to both Str and Arm and losing the -Spd seems unlikely. However, +2 Str / +1 Arm and coupling that with -1 Def seems like it could function AND be balanced. It lends Circle another option for powering up our beasts, which is sorely lacking and also lends a hand to troops. Overall a more flexible greater utility spell.

Alternatively +1 Str / +1 Arm and NOT an upkeep for 1 fury is an idea.

Earth Spikes... it does what it does. Leave it and rapid growth as be I think.

[Rosicrucian]

I don't think Baldur's feat is necessarily that bad. I've gotten some good mileage out of the cover aspect. However, if we're brainstorming, what if Baldur's feat was his control area becomes a forest? It would be a lot more powerful due to the LOS blocking characteristics preventing most charges and ranged attacks but it still wouldn't have the scenario breaking aspects of his old feat. If it was too powerful of an assassination tactic you could simply have Forest Walk specify "different forest" for his placement destination. That would prevent Baldur from using it on this feat turn.

Just an idle thought.

[bushman101]

my suggestions for Broken Earth:

* Enemy models in Baulder's control have their base speed reduced to 1.

* Enemy models in Baulder's control suffer Weight of Stone

[Pantheon]

My issue with his mki feat is that it simply dominated scenario play. I he got first turn it was really hard to avoid a turn three victory condition.

So what if his feat was this

Models that advance and end their movments in baldur's control area are knocked down.

Way stronger defensively than the current form....and can still be bypassed (at a cost) to get around auto lose scenarios

[Bakemono]

My suggestion was simple. It should stay exactly as they have created it thus far, EXCEPT that models who begin their activation within his control area must sacrifice either movement or action. That would be Feat worthy. I wouldn't give him auto-wins on the scenarios as they can still run and get where they need to be or fight if they are already engaged.

[paulj1096]

Baldur was my first ever caster and will always be one of my favorites. I play him often and I think his MK2 form is actually a lot of fun and definitely a step up in melee prowess (reach is invaluable).

He does love Wardens and Megalith, and I pretty much exclusively run constructs with him. It doesn't bother me too much, but I can understand when people complain that he's a bit too one-dimensional in the beast aspect. What he does with constructs, however, cannot be ignored. He has arguably the best spell in circle for geomancy (earth spikes) and he turns them into fury-efficient wrecking machines.

All that outta the way, I would love to see something change with Earth's Blessing. I really think he deserves Inhospitable Ground as a spell. It fits him perfectly, and it makes no sense (as stated earlier) that other casters are better at generating rough terrain than him. His feat is tough to reconcile. Everyone with a feat similar typically has a 14" control (Old Witch, Zerkova, eIrusk). If he got Inhospitable Ground, I'd say that his feat should force everything currently w/i to sacrifice movement or action. This gets around junk like ghostly, it defies shake-off, and it doesn't guarantee scenario wins.

Stoneskin is okay. Other armies have similar spells that have zero drawback, so it's a bit flustering that we have to suffer for it. I wouldn't mind losing the armor aspect if it and having a boost to strength and zero drawbacks.

[LEJKaya]

The feat needs at the very least to make all models move half speed, simply ignoring his feat by being legion and all flying or whatever isn't good for a feat.

Earth spikes is poor but its not bad so sure.

I wouldn't be too unhappy if Stone Skin stayed as is, but changing it would help with list building, I can see that. Why does he not have Strength of Granite?

So, Earth's Blessing... it could give treewalker, but who would that help so much?

[txiab]

I loved Baldur pre-MKII. I am surprised that no one is bothered by the fact that they cut back Rapid Growth to a four inch AOE. His feat is weak, but so are many of the Circle feats (it was one of the better feats in the game before, but problematic for scenario play and probably needed to be changed). To be totally honest, I think Baldur has sort of lost his way in MKII. Thank goodness he is still excellent with constructs. Reach is huge, and the tweaks to his forest walk will upgrade it to a useable ability as opposed to the waste of space it was pre-MKII. Earth's Blessing is nice since you ignore being knocked down, although pathfinder isn't nearly as good as it once was. Stone Skin is a mixed bag, but all of his spells arguably fall into the mixed bag category. I would argue that Rapid Growth and Earth Spikes are both good spells, it is clear that others disagree with Earth Spikes as a "good" spell. It seems that each of his spells except for Rapid Growth have a group of players that think they are junk.

The thing that has always surprised me is that in the pre-MKII world people didn't complain about his reliance on upkeeps. In many ways he suffers just as much as Morv to anti-upkeep effects. The only difference is that his ability to support constructs is not tied to upkeeps, and this is his biggest strength. Otherwise, his spell list has always been decent, but not great. I think they need to return Rapid Growth to a five inch AOE, and drop upkeep on it.

I haven't been able to play any games, so these are just some quick thoughts without any play experience. I suspect that Baldur will likely remain as he is, which is too bad as he could use a couple of small tweaks. However, I think eKrueger and Morv need more attention. i have actually been a little disappointed by how much attention Kromac has received, as I think he has probably been a distraction from our other warlocks.

[LEJKaya]

The change to 4" rapid growth is ok... I can't see why it was needed but it hasn't changed the spell much TBH.
And since Primal MkI where it and watchers was the only forest generation we had we now have wardens and sentry stones (Lol).

[txiab]

Sentry Stones, is anyone still taking them? lol

[Bakemono]

The change to 4" rapid growth is ok... I can't see why it was needed but it hasn't changed the spell much TBH.
And since Primal MkI where it and watchers was the only forest generation we had we now have wardens and sentry stones (Lol).


They changed it because they increased the power of the spell a great deal when they took away the limitations. YOu can now drop those forests on other models and terrain features. In MKI you could not do that. Now you can swamp someone in a forest, not just throw it in their path.

[havukwrecka]

^^ what he said, the change to Rapid Growth is great for assassinations, a 1 inch nerf is worth it

[Zyrael]

Without singling anyone out, I want to say... I see some people getting greedy in here.

Lets be realistic. Lets get a simple list of requests, and get firmly behind them.

Should we start a new topic or consolidate here.

But seriously. People start making real, realistic, sound suggestions and using appropriate wording so we can thoughtfully read over them and get behind the chosen ones.

[txiab]

I think this is a good place to consolidate. People just need to list their suggestions in brief bullet points, and then it will be easy to quickly put together a solid list of recommendations.

[LEJKaya]

Ok, so

Feat: At least make it "move at half speed" so it affects flying/incorporial/ghostly.

Spells:
Rapid Growth: Fine
Earth Spikes: Fine
Stone Skin: I'm personally ok with this, but I'd like to see suggestions for losing the SPD.
Earths Blessing: Gain Forestwalk, Lose...what?

Pretty sure everything else is ok.

[UnderWood]

Just to be in the minority I actually like baldurs new feat far far more than his old feat.

Before all popping your feat did was make your opponent move back take defensive positions and generally just shuffle around. Your opponent would shoot into your feat so if you did run things up to take advantage it would most likely get shot in the face (I do play in a very gun heavy meta though)

Now we have a feat that tempts your opponent to move into it so we can bait our opponent in with sacrificial models and defends against shooting. So his new feat actually solves both of the problems I had with his old feat which i really like.

The main problems I'm having with baldur are

Earth blessing was useful for 2 things
giving pathfinder to a furry warbeast and throwing your warbeasts at your opponent.
In all honesty the way i was winning with baldur at the end was pretty much just by throwing megalith at people.

Now we can't throw our warbeasts and we have several options for giving our living models pathfinder in the argus and ghostly. Although this is a bit irrelivent with the new power of the warden charge and stoneskin.

Stoneskin give you -1PSD

Seriously how many spells in the circle do we have that increse out infantrys damage output the answer is one and its stoneskin we lost the other. now the problem with stoneskin is you cant charge with it up so our factions advantage our long charges and threat range is entierly neutered by the -1SPD.

We can walk things into melee with it which is now good with ravagers with UA and we can do the warden charge and stoneskin. Apart from that its a really iffy spell to use you can use it for defense and then sometimes use it for attacking.

I would rather have -4DEF and no speed loss with it or something equally horrible instead of losing our ablity to play as the circle.

[LEJKaya]

Just to be in the minority I actually like baldurs new feat far far more than his old feat.

Indeed, I really like the cover too tbh, but it needs the fix to stop people with flight and whatnot just ignoring the main part of the feat.

[paulj1096]

I can get behind that. Halved speed and cover is a good fix.

We still seem to be up in the air on what to do with EB though. Is it a spell that's fixable or should it be replaced? I don't see treewalker making it much more castable than how it stands now.

In my last two field test reports I asked that the speed loss component of stone skin be dropped. I don't even mind if the buffs drop to +2/+1 or +1/+1, I hate the loss of speed. It makes the strength bonus negligible save for bloodtrackers, LoTF, and wolf riders.

[Pseudog]

Indeed, I really like the cover too tbh, but it needs the fix to stop people with flight and whatnot just ignoring the main part of the feat.

Heya.
Baldur's feat - Legion.
Morvahna's feat - Cryx.
Mohsar's feat - Khador

See a pattern? :P

Though, Baldur may have some hope of getting his feat fixed. Because it was not always so vulnerable to certain faction, so they might change it more likely than Morvahna's "theme" and Mohsar's "tradition".

[ImpactVector]

Heya.
Baldur's feat - Legion.
Morvahna's feat - Cryx.
Mohsar's feat - Khador

See a pattern? :P

You forgot:

pKrueger's feat - Cygnar (though this is new in MK 2... but so is Baldur's feat problem)

Edit:

I suppose I should contribute something here, since I'm such a construct fanboy.

Yeah, I think it's kind of unfortunate that his feat can be easily negated by a faction. But Baldur has always had problem with Legion (eyeless sight).

I've railed against Stone Skin countless times, but if they're keeping geomancy in its current form then I can forgive it since I can cast it mid-charge for 1 fury. And it still synergizes fairly well with bloodtrackers like it always did. Strength of Granite would remove that option since it's a single model in battlegroup spell.

Earth's Blessing is a lame spell. No question. But I'm having a hard time coming up with something that would be useful yet still fitting his theme. I'd be completely cool with ditching it completely for pretty much anything else though.

[txiab]

I still think the no knock down on Earth's Blessing is good. What if it gave a boost to ARM, like +2 or something instead of pathfinder. Then, change Stone Skin?

Does anyone know why Baldur only has +5 beast points? How do they decide how many beast points a warlock will receive?

[LEJKaya]

How do they decide how many beast points a warlock will receive?

Roll D6? ;)

[Drillermaniac]

Using the old feat of Calandra?

[Blaque]

Baldur boosts an entire class of warbeasts to become fairly fury-efficient and also removes their primary weakness while they're in his battlegroup. So only 5 warbeast points makes sense, as 6 seems to b ethe "base" and the shift from there I find (7s are reaaaally rare.)

On spells, I kind of like Earth's Blessing myself, so I don't see the issues with it most games. Its great on Ferals and Satyrs, it has the nice way to stop bullcrap like Kreoss and Bart's feats and so on.

My only suggestion for the feat would be just halve movement, but that gets odd in interactionw with rough terrain. Does this mean that they move 1/4 movement through the forests and things you can easily put on the table? It may be easier to just say it stops Pathfinder and Flight, or that models in the zone also suffer Weight of Stone, although in that case would be a pulse and something most feats seem to just not have anymore.

With Geomancy as it is, I don't mind Stone Skin right now myself. As noted above, it lets WOldwardens wallup pretty nicely, Baldur himself uses it and he has some other good targets like the Lord of the Feast, Bloodtrackers and in some cases just stuff he wants to make tougher like stones or Woldwatchers (if they ever get fixed.)

To be honest, I am using him more and more as an assasination caster instead of a control one. It may be harder when we see the final Steamroller 2010 rules, but that's what I ahve found gets the job done and 12" zone of mostly un-ignorable terrain is pretty rough for most people.

And stuff.

[Ergonus]

I personally really like the idea of Earth's Blessing granting treewalker instead of pathfinder. A lot of times i find my self putting a unit in a forest for protection to keep them from getting shot up by the opposing army. Then the 3" LOS rule for the terrain gimps my charge on half the unit because they cannot see through the forest and I don't want to spam Tracker on a whole unit. So treewalker would be awesome to help you utilize the forest for defense and offense more effeciently, don't have to worry about placement of other models like stones or warbeast's due to the fact you can move through them. Also if your unit gets charged/engaged there more survivable with the +2 def vs melee.

This would really make me want to actually cast it on a unit vs casting on just a fuzzy. With Baldur if I bring a fuzzy I will usually just bring an Argus to handle the pathfinder problem with them because he is so cheap and he benefits my caster as well with being able to see through the forest for spell slinging from saftey most of the time for only 1 fury.

As for stone skin, I've always wondered why Circle gets all the spells with decidedly bad drawbacks. Stone Skin really takes the cake in that we are an "alpha strike faction" but this spell alone is counter intuitive to that theme by negating any chance to charge and thus gain the most benefit out of the +2 STR. As circle I always find that being the "alpha strike faction" that were supposed to be, we lack the POW to make it really count and will get creamed on the retaliation more often than not, unless we put all our eggs in one basket so to speak. -2 DEF would work I think, but seems steep because most of our units are def 13, and we barely skirt by now at def 14 on our feral with the mat increase across the board on most jacks. I don't know what would make it work, but we should come up with something and get behind it soon.

[Bakemono]

I tend to cast it ONLY on units now, because I don't usually care about "knockdown" on my Warbeasts. I agree, however, that with the loss of value of the spell in MKII that changing it to "target model/unit cannot be knocked down and gains Treewalker" would make it a much better spell.

[LEJKaya]

Again I have to ask. Exactly who is going to benefit so much from treewalker?

[Ergonus]

Every unit we have except for the Ravagers, because it would still grant steady to the unit, so even then could be useful for the Ravagers. Especially considering baldur makes his own 4" aoe forest on the table, and you are probably taking a warden so it would synergize well with his animus wildgrowth, and possibly the sentry stone if it ever gets fixed.

[Bakemono]

Again I have to ask. Exactly who is going to benefit so much from treewalker?

<laughs> More than benefit from "Pathfinder," since the vast majority of what we field already has Pathfinder, or can get the same from Argus or Pureblood without tapping Baldur's Fury. I didn't say I loved Treewalker. I just said it would give a bigger benefit than the Pathfinder. Personally, I think Earth's Blessing lost most of its utility when they decided that you STILL PAID THE PRICE for being knocked down in your own turn even when you aren't. It eliminated the "cannonball special" which was the only value I ever saw in the spell.

[LEJKaya]

<laughs> More than benefit from "Pathfinder," since the vast majority of what we field already has Pathfinder, or can get the same from Argus or Pureblood without tapping Baldur's Fury. I didn't say I loved Treewalker.

I know what you're saying, pathfinder is largely pointless (Except to minions... well gatormen) my point is if treewalker isn't going to help us either then maybe we can do better?
Also remember the argus also gives Hunter so we have access to ignoring trees for LOS.
Treewalker sounds good, I'm going to look through our stuff make sure it has viable targets too before I feedback Baldur recommending it.

[Bakemono]

I know what you're saying, pathfinder is largely pointless (Except to minions... well gatormen) my point is if treewalker isn't going to help us either then maybe we can do better?
Also remember the argus also gives Hunter so we have access to ignoring trees for LOS.
Treewalker sounds good, I'm going to look through our stuff make sure it has viable targets too before I feedback Baldur recommending it.

Treewalker still gives the +2 DEF in Melee combat right? That is why I see it as a potential fix (I haven't recommended it yet either) since it would have synergy with Baldur and his dropping forests out or his Wardens doing it.

[Bakemono]

Yep. Treewalkers still get that +2 DEF while in the forest versus melee. Interestingly enough it means that if they were behind a Woldwarden who dropped a forest, they could then advance right through him. Also, if Baldur dropped a forest on some models that were blocking access to a choice target.... models/units with this power could pass right through them. I think the spell, in that light, would benefit a great deal. It would provide a option (with work) to bypass models.

[LEJKaya]

Yeah, it is a potential fix (And the comments weren't aimed btw, I said earlier that we should make sure its a good spell with it) but some seem to be jumping on it and I want to make sure Baldur gets some good testing and a workable spell rather than jumping on the first suggestion.

I also liked it granting Camouflage btw. And are we suggesting adding Treewalker or swapping it for pathfinder since we can make some use of it on occasion?

[Bakemono]

Yeah, it is a potential fix (And the comments weren't aimed btw, I said earlier that we should make sure its a good spell with it) but some seem to be jumping on it and I want to make sure Baldur gets some good testing and a workable spell rather than jumping on the first suggestion.

I also liked it granting Camouflage btw. And are we suggesting adding Treewalker or swapping it for pathfinder since we can make some use of it on occasion?


Good point. I will test it tonight and tomorrow as I plan to get a good 3-5 games in. I think the spell would certainly benefit a Baldur player with that change. Of course, now that we discussed it... I'm rethinking using Ravagers with Baldur (I rarely use a lot of infantry period) but in talking about this, it struck me that I can now phase my Ravagers at will through other models to charge Warlocks and Warcasters. :) I dont' know why it didn't strike me before. Toss 4" AOE forest on screening models... CHARGE Ravagers at desired target.

Hrm. Of course it doesn't immunize them to the free strikes so still some kinks in that plan. Still a viable spell correction (once I test it) but not over powered. A Feral or a Pureblood with this spell sitting on them that warps for Ghostly ignores the rough terrain and can now pass through (well over) the models in his/her way and gets to ignore free strikes.

*Of course the Tharn charging by/through the people to get to the real target will have gained +2 DEF against Melee to offset the +2 they get from free strikes. Hrm.

[LEJKaya]

Tharn Ravagers: Obviously no benefit
Blood Weavers: Allows for charges from safety, combined with baldurs terrain generation could be nice. Also gain the Def bonus if caught in assault.
Blood Trackers: Again with baldurs terrain generation it could allow them to give a shooting strike with no retaliation. Low range may hamper this though.
Wolf Riders: Similar to Blood Weavers, though often out of control, they can still make good use of terrain on the table.
Druids: Not too much help, safer in trees with the DEF bonus and they could do some bolts at stuff through trees.
Woldstalkers: Again low range may stop great use of it but yeah, shoot through forests...
Shifting Stones: Umm, no.
Sentry Stones: Probably not either tbh.. sprays through a forest?
WoO: Charges through forests and models in the forest, like Bloodweavers basically.
RoO: Have hunter already. Movement through other models isn't needed much for them.

So, red is no use, yellow is minimal, green is good use.
So, certainly compared to pathfinder it's great!

[Bakemono]

You left off all the Warbeasts it could be put on. :) That is what kind of got me drooling. Protecting my Feral by increasing its DEF while sitting in woods. Or using woods to phase my Warpwolf through to a tasty target.

[LEJKaya]

Well, yeah but they are all the same!
Living beasts have either the +2 DEF or maybe seeing through forests (Which they can get from the argus or pureblood).

Similarly Solos, LotF is your man, though the DEF can help the wayfarer... Actually thinking of the wayfarer I suppose druids could get LOS to him easier if they could see through forests...
But anyway solos can have the DEF or see through forests but its basically all the same effect.

[AmonadRodrigues]

Yeah, it is a potential fix (And the comments weren't aimed btw, I said earlier that we should make sure its a good spell with it) but some seem to be jumping on it and I want to make sure Baldur gets some good testing and a workable spell rather than jumping on the first suggestion.

I also liked it granting Camouflage btw. And are we suggesting adding Treewalker or swapping it for pathfinder since we can make some use of it on occasion?

My suggestion was to swap it for pathfinder, but of course i wouldn't mind to simply add it. I'm just thinking PP wants this upkeep spells to usually have two positive effects, cause almost all upkeeps are like this.



Thanks for the usefull list LEJKaya. I agree with your appraisement in general, maybe seeing Druids near to green since they've a considerable charge option in addition to the listed benefits.

I'd also add a "all beasts (except woldwyrd)" with green. I see the priority to have EB work for units, but we should consider our beasts benefits as well. Especially I see potential their for some surprising assassination-attempts: Drop forest on Models covering enemy caster, cast EB on threatening Beast (Heavy prefered!) and charge through the models... I know thats theorymachine, but theorymachine with a potential

(edit: Bakemono was faster...)