Does anyone use the Black 13th anymore?

[Vinter_Loyalist]

I do not see this unit in many lists.

In the revised edition does anyone used them anymore? I love this unit in MkII. Its cheap and is great for solo assassination. Thoughts?

[whitekong]

Every cygnar player I play against uses them.

[Steamsmith]

I do not see this unit in many lists.

In the revised edition does anyone used them anymore? I love this unit in MkII. Its cheap and is great for solo assassination. Thoughts?

I am very surprised that you aren't seeing them. the Broke 13th make it in to most of my Mk2 lists.

There is not really another 4 point option with as much killing potential.

I have also found that their reputation alone has helped me out, by my opponents choosing to avoid the table side where they are at. fear is a great tool.

[Trigger]

I have to agree, i use them in about 60% of my lists due to the fact that I put them on one side and either my opponent avoids that side entirely or they send a vast amount of their army at them to kill them off..either the B13 get in some nice kills..or they are a great distraction while i send the rest of my force to take out the caster

[Techcasualty]

I am going to say this and I know it's going to get some flak, but it needs to be said.

I hope black 13's point cost gets raised to 5 point with the card release.
Black 13 is just too good for its points. It's a buy two get one free deal on the gmca, and that third one is one hell of a doozy.

[Demeritus]

In my mk2 experience, I have yet to NOT see them across the table from me. My opponents tend to use them carefully since the Redeemer is my best friend but damned if these guys aren't annoying.

[Steamsmith]

I am going to say this and I know it's going to get some flak, but it needs to be said.

I hope black 13's point cost gets raised to 5 point with the card release.
Black 13 is just too good for its points. It's a buy two get one free deal on the gmca, and that third one is one hell of a doozy.

i'll stand up with you, Tech. if they were 5 points i would still take them, but they would not be as easy to fit in most lists as they are now.

[TsavongLah]

It's a buy two get one free deal on the gmca, and that third one is one hell of a doozy.

Well, sure, when you put it like that... when compared to the GMCA, just about anything sounds retardedly overpowered. :p

[admanb]

i'll stand up with you, Tech. if they were 5 points i would still take them, but they would not be as easy to fit in most lists as they are now.

*nods*

When I build a list on forward kommander it's caster, Black 13th, and then I start thinking.

[Techcasualty]

Well, sure, when you put it like that... when compared to the GMCA, just about anything sounds retardedly overpowered. :p
unfortunately it's the other way around. When you break it down the gmca is not THAT bad for two points. Would I like to see his anti-stealth be natural rather than having to stay still? Sure

The lynch pin (get it?) to the argument against the GMCA is 'but I can just take b13'

[mydnight]

To be honest i think they should give Lynch arcane precision and the GMCA true sight. That would balance things out.

[ar2]

I am going to say this and I know it's going to get some flak, but it needs to be said.

I hope black 13's point cost gets raised to 5 point with the card release.
Black 13 is just too good for its points. It's a buy two get one free deal on the gmca, and that third one is one hell of a doozy.

I take them in most lists I build and they are really good for 4 points. They would still be good at 5 points, but points being really, really tight they might no make it into as many lists. This would be a shame because they are a solid trouble shooting unit that can't deal out nearly as much punishment as they used to and that are really only taking four power 10 shots a turn with a range of 10". Brutal Shot is powerful but with a range of 10'' the Black 13th are usually quite exposed when they use this bullet and tend to not live past the turn. Most of the early and mid-game they are using Snipe to extend the range on their POW 10 Range 10 shots. Granted, Ryan's special attack is quite powerful but still only has a range of 10". They are now a true support troubleshooting unit and their strength no longer lies in sheer damage output but in other more subtle measures such as dealing with incorporeal models and models with stealth.

Lately I've been having to drop a lot of support elements, such as Rhupert and Eiryss and even... gasp!..Jr.!, from my lists at 35 points because the points are just not there. Making the Black 13th cost even just one more point would make list building an even tougher proposition than it is now. Even though they would still be worth their raised cost it would mean that most lists would lack even more support elements. I usually take support elements not for tangible damage output but to keep my army functioning and lately I have been really feeling the strain of these elements being just out of points reach. I would hate to also lose the Black 13th, the one reliable support element that does usually make my lists, because of an increase in points cost.

My reluctance to support such an increase comes from real tabletop experience, not theorymachine. As such it is valid, if somewhat inconclusive. It is a genuine concern that leads me to defend the Black 13th point cost as it stands and to press for it to remain the same.

Thanks for your understanding, for your patience, and your time.

[PBear]

I take them in most lists I build and they are really good for 4 points. They would still be good at 5 points, but points being really, really tight they might no make it into as many lists.
The point of proper balance is that the decision whether or not to take a model should be a dilemma. If it's an easy decision to include it just about every time, then you know the cost is off.

[TsavongLah]

If it's an easy decision to include it just about every time, then you know the cost is off.

Not necessarily. Should the Squire be 3 points?

[whats82]

I take them in virtually all lists.

[Techcasualty]

Not necessarily. Should the Squire be 3 points?
squire does not have an actual combat ability, does not have competition for its slot, and it is something you have to think about. Darius, for example, has a much smaller use for squire than say ehaley. Regular caine has little use for squire. Kraye and stryker same story. Can they use the squire? Yes. Can they use an extra focus now and again? Sure. Do they need it bad enough to cost 2 points? Questionable.

Black 13, is it going to own face no matter the circumstances? Absolutely. (Okay, maybe not in a karchev army)

[Killionaire]

I don't take the squire in half my lists. Why? Because yes, the Squire is a great model. But it doesn't actually contribute to the 'winning the game' play aside from with Seige and the Haleys. EStryker doesn't necessarily need it for example. It'd be nice, but I think Ryssyl or Rhupert would be more vital, just in case. eNemo would prefer Arlan almost every time too.

[gunnerjack]

I play B13th often, almost every time i build a 35 list i find that they are the best support unit i can afford to buy in Jack-heavy list.

Now are really a great unit that is not over the top as in MKI but still have a great toolbox to solve many problems that may arise during the game:

- Anti-Stealth Ability
- Good AoE attack
- 4 pow 10 and 3 dices attacks

Only for these 3 they are 4 well spent points!

My 2 cents

[Safim]

I'm against nerfing them or upping their price. Every faction has stuff that is just a little too cheap and right now, Cygnar needs the Black 13th. They niceley balance out all those over the top solos other factions can put on the table, like the magehunter assassin.
And for the recrod... for the love of god don't give lynch arcane precision. Just give the GMCA true sight and it is all good.
Sure it would be better if everything was balanced, but imperfections happen.

[masleth]

I have to force myself not to play them (gain one fury). They are a point investment with almost no downside. Fantastic utility and a tough enough target, that even if they do go down quickly, it should cost your opponent at least an equal amount of points to take them, probably 3x their points if they're played right.

[Dino-Czar]

I hope the B-13 get taken to five points and/or arcane precision gets swapped from the GMCA to Lynch.

I'm not going to cry if neither happens, but I personally feel that both could occur without shelving the unit.

[Toturi]

With the shift from emphasis on infantry models to warjacks, the B13 is good as a support piece at its present points. The problem lies not with the B13 but the GMCA - if the GMCA did more for its 2 points, then it would have been a toss up to bring the B13 or the GMCA + some other model.

[Bobby Hostile]

Were I to wish anything on the B13th, it would be a re-sculpt.

[leo_neil316]

unfortunately it's the other way around. When you break it down the gmca is not THAT bad for two points. Would I like to see his anti-stealth be natural rather than having to stay still? Sure

The lynch pin (get it?) to the argument against the GMCA is 'but I can just take b13'

No it's 'but I can take two stormsmith's and they're more accurate and longer ranged anti-stealth that can't be taken out in one shot'.

I've used the black 13th a couple of times, and they work well.

Every list? Hell no! What do I need them for in a storm-heavy list (where I'm better of taking lightning immune stormsmiths instead).

Does kraye benefit from them? Don't think so.

Hell half the time with the black 13th I go 'I could just spend four more points and take ATGM and U.A, and they don't have a big irrational target painted on their faces.'

Incidentally, taking a GMCA simply because of how much people hated him in mark 1 and knowing they'll all go after him despite him being mostly useless? Hilarious.

[Reemule]

I played them till November but have sence shelved them. My opponets made them the primary target right after Arlan, and they are not that difficult to kill.

[Sevwall]

I haven't taken a list without them. They are way too good for 4 points. They will be 5 points in the faction deck, mark my words.

[Dino-Czar]

Does kraye benefit from them? Don't think so.




Quick minor point: If you bring the B-13 Lynch can save Kraye the need to cast Mage Sight. Save some focus for the focus battery.

[DarkWonderer]

People who want B13 cost 5 or exchange True Sight for Arcane Precision amaze me to no end. I bet if any of these happens all of you will be screaming faul and complainging "why couldn't B13 be left alone, look at all those ungodly solos other factions have..." .

I will say it loud. I hate Arcane Precision! It's one of those abilities, when you have to count on your opponent to walk in your treat range to use it. Not something I enjoy, not something I want to see more of. Quite the contrary.

[Negative9]

I hope the B-13 get taken to five points and/or arcane precision gets swapped from the GMCA to Lynch.

I'm not going to cry if neither happens, but I personally feel that both could occur without shelving the unit.

Swapping arcane precision is probably the worse thing you could do Lynch as it would make fire beacon again just about useless.

4 points is about right for a support unit with moderate offensive capabilities and terrain contingent defensive mechanic and a character unit to boot.

[Gramut]

I squeeze the Black-13th into any list 25pts and over and if I can manage it, I put them in the 15 point lists as well. Just too good not to include.

[Dino-Czar]

People who want B13 cost 5 or exchange True Sight for Arcane Precision amaze me to no end. I bet if any of these happens all of you will be screaming faul and complainging "why couldn't B13 be left alone, look at all those ungodly solos other factions have..." .


I'm sorry, have we met? I don't recall anyone I know being from Poland, but it seems you must know me better than I know myself.

Either that or you are blowing smoke because you haven't got the chops to make an argument with out some made up "prediction".

@Neg9. I see your point, but I think the B-13 can stand to be a situational ant-stealth and still be perfectly functional.

[Negative9]

@Neg9. I see your point, but I think the B-13 can stand to be a situational ant-stealth and still be perfectly functional.

We have already tried that and it didn't work. Thread after thread on how lynch needed true sight to function properly. A full field test etc. The unit is solid as is.

[Professor Lust]

Yes, lynch needs true sight because Fire beacon does not deviate or at least it didn't in mk1.

as I read the mk2 version, I am still not sure if it deviates.


•Fire Beacon - This attack becomes AOE 5 and POW – for this attack. While a model is within the AOE, it loses Camouflage and Stealth, and othermodels can ignore cloud effects when determining LOS to it. The AOE lasts for one turn.

[Dino-Czar]

We have already tried that and it didn't work. Thread after thread on how lynch needed true sight to function properly. A full field test etc. The unit is solid as is.

Arcane Precision didn't exist until after the field test, so I certainly didn't test it on Lynch. Hell, I seem to recall general shock at the post-fieldtest price drip. And you've seen the parade of people stating that 4 points is low. It happens every time the B-13 are mentioned. I, for one, think there might be something to that.


edit:

Yes, lynch needs true sight because Fire beacon does not deviate or at least it didn't in mk1.

as I read the mk2 version, I am still not sure if it deviates.

It becomes an attack with an AoE, why wouldn't it deviate?

[whats82]

Fire beacon always deviated, that was apparently their design philosophy that you get 50% chance to negate stealth (distance 1-3) on a chosen target. True sight is just elegant.

[Techcasualty]

Anyone mind listing these amazing solos that the rest of the armies get?
I see the combine for 5
I see the bears for 5
i see paladin for 3

the protectorate's 3 man is 4, but they are also a close combat unit that's not that strong. a ps12 with continuous fire (lolwut?) and two ps11 weapon masters. They are also speed 5.

manhunter is pretty good for 2, but gets knocked the fsck out pretty quick.
yuris 3
pistol wraths 3
tartarsauce is 4

[Typhael]

Anyone mind listing these amazing solos that the rest of the armies get?
I see the combine for 5
I see the bears for 5
i see paladin for 3

the protectorate's 3 man is 4, but they are also a close combat unit that's not that strong. a ps12 with continuous fire (lolwut?) and two ps11 weapon masters. They are also speed 5.

manhunter is pretty good for 2, but gets knocked the fsck out pretty quick.
yuris 3
pistol wraths 3
tartarsauce is 4

Indeed, I read this and wondered the same thing (besides the fact that B13, Combine, Bears aren't solos...). Where are these "amazing too-good-for-their-points solos"?

[Malaziel]

Good for their points? Absolutely. Too good? Not against competent opponent on a table that has average terrain (think of tournament setting for instance)

Its not an issue of B13 being too good, it's an issue of not enough quality support in Cygnar. Of course 5'' of no stealth is gonna get fielded in shooty army like Cygnar, and i would gladly fit just that for 2 points - heck, you could rework his gun to be standard gunmage with crit extra dice , no gunfighter and it would be an excelent piece still; 2 extra bodies for 2 extra points are handy but unnecesarry. Thing is, untill these newsolos we can field dont get released, i dont see any support piece worth fielding at 35 other than squire and B13. So yes, they are autoiclude in that sense :)

Oh, and speaking of solos i would alvays field given the choice(proper faction that is ;p)
-Mage Hunter Assasin
-Vassal of Menoth
-Shepherd in Legion
-Manhunter
.
.
.
Probably 10 more. Simply avesome points investment for support piece of that caliber.

[Techcasualty]

two of those are buffer units

I mean vassal can technically fight, but he's not in the same catagory.
MHA is nice, sure. but suffers the same thing as the manhunter. Melee only so you know the threats coming and can eliminate it properly.

[ar2]

The point of proper balance is that the decision whether or not to take a model should be a dilemma. If it's an easy decision to include it just about every time, then you know the cost is off.

I happen to disagree. Just because you take a particular unit almost everytime does not indicate that the cost is off. It could indicate a plethora of other things. I also believe you missed my point because you did nothing to counter my arguement but rehash a fallacious statement that gets thrown around a lot on these forums. My arguement, which you did not even touch on, is that we lack good support elements and that we usually have to go out of faction and include very pricey models to keep our army functioning. The Black 13th are our one reliable support element and I will agree with you that yes, for 4 points they are good. If we can both agree that they are good for 4 points what then is the problem? And let's not compare them to cross faction support elements because that type of arguement always falls flat when you take a look at individual models outside the context of their own faction.

[PBear]

I happen to disagree. Just because you take a particular unit almost everytime does not indicate that the cost is off. It could indicate a plethora of other things. I also believe you missed my point because you did nothing to counter my arguement but rehash a fallacious statement that gets thrown around a lot on these forums. My arguement, which you did not even touch on, is that we lack good support elements and that we usually have to go out of faction and include very pricey models to keep our army functioning. The Black 13th are our one reliable support element and I will agree with you that yes, for 4 points they are good. If we can both agree that they are good for 4 points what then is the problem? And let's not compare them to cross faction support elements because that type of arguement always falls flat when you take a look at individual models outside the context of their own faction.
Most of your argument is devoted to how good the B13 are and the important role they play in your army. I agree -- they are good. You even concede that they would be worthwhile at 5 points (just not in as many lists). If the unit is worthwhile at 5 points, that's a pretty good indication that it shouldn't be 4 points.

It's not a valid argument to say that a unit should be cheaper because if it's more expensive I won't include them in as many armies and army design becomes more challenging. Undercosted stuff always makes army design easier ("auto-include" or near to it) and makes your army better.

[wckdhunter]

the only reason i don't take them all the time is because the models are stupid tiny

[ar2]

Most of your argument is devoted to how good the B13 are and the important role they play in your army. I agree -- they are good. You even concede that they would be worthwhile at 5 points (just not in as many lists). If the unit is worthwhile at 5 points, that's a pretty good indication that it shouldn't be 4 points.

It's not a valid argument to say that a unit should be cheaper because if it's more expensive I won't include them in as many armies and army design becomes more challenging. Undercosted stuff always makes army design easier ("auto-include" or near to it) and makes your army better.

I agree that they are good at 4 points and that they are worthwhile at 5 points but not that they are undercosted or an auto-inlude. My arguement as that in most lists I've built lately, especially at 35 points, they are the only really good support element and that if they were to cost more even they might not make the cut in what is already an incredibly competitive points slot.

[tensteam]

I do once in a while get a feeling that B13th are just too cheap for what they'll do. But then I'll go and play against Retribution and Mage Hunter Assault Squad with UA...

[whats82]

the only reason i don't take them all the time is because the models are stupid tiny

I don't feel bad once I actually painted them.

[Appolus]

Oh, and speaking of solos i would alvays field given the choice(proper faction that is ;p)
-Mage Hunter Assasin
-Vassal of Menoth
-Shepherd in Legion
-Manhunter
.
.
.
Probably 10 more. Simply avesome points investment for support piece of that caliber.

What, exactly, makes the manhunter so auto-include to you? Most of us reds like him, but not THAT much. He is a handy little missile, but most of us would rather use the 2 points elsewhere unless there is a niche for him.

Manhunter is a model to use with definite purpose, not just because he costs 2 points.

[Killionaire]

The Manhunter isn't the crazy thing about Khador these days. Not by a long shot. If ever.

No, it's Kovnik Joe and Crew :P

[Higgen]

Indeed, I read this and wondered the same thing (besides the fact that B13, Combine, Bears aren't solos...). Where are these "amazing too-good-for-their-points solos"?
In the Retribution. ;)

[Arkady]

Are you kidding?! Black 13th are awesome. So awesome, in fact, I fear they may become 5 points in the final product.

As for solos, there are lots of great ones (particularly ones that cost 1 or 2... at 3 points it becomes a weighted decision), but none are exactly auto-include. The best point-for-point solo is probably the Skorne Master Tormentor. Kovnik Josef is also amazing and is autoinclude if you have any Winterguard on the table. I wish other boosting solos (Finn, Rengrave) were half as good.

[Broken_shards]

lol i think i must be the only person that does not use them, every list ive seen on here has had the 13th in it

[knight_actual]

People react over much to this unit. I take it not to take down opponent forces but for their anti stealth magical weapon abilities. At 4 points, this is half of the next best thing, which is the ATGM+UA. Also, at double the cost of GMCA they are worth more than double his abilities.

Although for 4 points, ppl complain over much compared to the other character units.

pow10 x4 at 14" is hardly powerful compared to the other ones. if anything it highlights the deficiencies in our other choices.

[69Lazarus]

Were I to wish anything on the B13th, it would be a re-sculpt.


QFT.

I'd pay triple $$ for it.

[phreaker187]

I use them in almost every army. Let's not forget PP thought they were too expensive at 5 points and lowered them to 4. They are really good for a 4 point unit, but they die to any thing with "AOE" on it's card description. That was probably taken into account when the cost was set. One mortar crew can can kill them all from nearly across the whole board.

[thesavage]

Not if they are stealthed. Use them with trenchers or Gorman Di Wulfe.

Well, I suppose they could still get hit if the template doesn't deviate far enough.

[69Lazarus]

4" mortar templates are pretty big....

[Amarel]

Were I to wish anything on the B13th, it would be a re-sculpt.

GMCA, Draegyn the Bastard & Valeria Alvaro are my B13.

[Arkady]

GMCA, Draegyn the Bastard & Valeria Alvaro are my B13.

Good substitutions, but sadly not allowed in any sort of Steamroller event, and going by the recent trend, Draegyn and Valeria will get their own rules soon enough.

[hammy44]

B13 are very good almost auto but not quite. They die easily if playing skilled opponents. At a cost of 5 they would likely see serious reduction in there play/use. AOE's hose them big time.... I think it would be a major mistake to up there point total. Just my 2 cents....

[Agamemnon]

I am intrested to see what happens overall in the next 6 to 10 months after all the models see plenty of table time. I think the overall picture will be more clear after a larger sample of list have had both sets of units swapped out for eachother.

[Arkady]

I would be annoyed if the B13 became 5 points (then they aren't so much 50% of ATGM for 50% of the cost, so most often I'd probably spend a few extra points to get the bigger unit), but I can live with it as long as they fix all the crap that slipped through the FT.

[DonJean]

Yeah I have to say that the B13 sees far too much table time. I'm with the group that thinks they should be 5pts. I still don't know why they came down to 4pt.

My stance is they should be a choice not a definate. I mean compared to our other range options at 4pts it's a no brainer. Like people have said at 5 points they become harder to fit and you have to think about your choice.

As to the OP once again I see the B13 far too much these days.

[phreaker187]

B13 are not OP in any way. They are good, but like I stated before ANYTHING with AOE kills them instantly. Even an AOE 3 still hits them on a 1-2 drift, and kills them on average rolls.

If you really think they should be 5 points then you aren't a Cygnar player and you have no idea how fragile they are. All gun mages are fragile, that's their gimmick.

[Higgen]

I am a Cygnar player, I use the B13th in just about every list, and I play opponents with AoEs. I don't think the fragility argument works for the Mage Hunter Assassin, and I don't think it works here. You keep them spread out enough that a single AoE is only ever going to kill one of them and you've still got a lot of utility in the unit. So often I lose one here, one there, and yet they still keep on trucking. They are too good for their points cost and are next to a no-brainer when selecting your army.

However, they do tend to be my only answer to things like the Mage Hunter Strike Force, so take that for what you will.

[Techcasualty]

Hi, cygnar player here

gun mage player infact. Love my gunmage army

b13 is too good for its points.
spread out and the pow 6 aoe is not going to do enough damage. Even if the enemy kills 1 or 2, not only have you drawn fire, but you still have a friggin GMCA running around.

[Arkady]

What are you talking about? Even POW6 AOEs stand a decent chance to kill them, and the only place where you really see tons of POW6 AOEs is in Cygnar... everyone else has far more potent blasts. And "draw fire"? Really? What else in the army cares about POW6 AOEs? And what does a GMCA (the worst solo in the game) have to do with anything? Can I have some of whatever you're smoking, because it's obviously the bombdiggidy chronic. :D

The B13 are about half as potent as the ATGM, and so cost half the points. They were 5 in the field test, and obviously PP received enough feedback to convince them to drop the cost of the unit to 4. Cygnar has enough stuff that's over-pointed, let's not add another to the list.

[Cervantes690]

Question, Has PP said that they might change stuff before the cards are released, or is people just hoping? With the time schedule, I think the rules was sent to the printers shortly after the FT was finished. Just a thought for ya all.

[hackrune]

They changed the final rules for the Sentinel and the final cost for Trenchers. I wouldn't put it past them to sneak a few more changes into the official cards.

[GunMageinTraining]

I'd rather they not change too many things from the Mk2 Prime book. I don't expect I'll be getting all of the decks, so I need to be able to at least have some reference. Errata will happen though, and I'm glad they did make the Trencher and Sentinel change, even if I'm still unlikely to take a sentinel much.

[Ysthrall]

I don't use the Black 13th. I don't own the models, don't want them, and have never really looked at their rules.

I'm sure they're very good, but I just dislike character models/units.

The Great Bears seem to have a high speed rail network to endable them to get to every tiny skirmish involving Khador, while A+H have apparently cloned themselves a dozen times. I've played at my LGS, where my opponent was using them, and on the board next to us, both players were also using A+H....

This is, I am aware, a subjective and irrational rant. But fluff wise, a small strike force? Of three individuals? That turns up at every tiny battle...?
(yes, impersonators, copycats, wannabes, etc. Don't care).

In terms of characters, the game requires you field one at least. In which case, it's not unreasonable they'd bring their retinue occasionally (Irusk and the Khador dragoon, Styker and Ol' Rowdy). It's fair enough that where there's lots of a unit, there's be their character solo (If I field a full unit of Storm Lances, Kat might come along too). In a large game of 1500pts+ or equivalent, special forces would be included, requisitions made, and everything thrown into the major battle.

But every game? Every list down to a dozen models? I realise I'm exagerrating, but thats what it feels like. B13 and other character units? No thank you.

On a marginally more reasonable response, my LGS isn't using Mk2 yet, theres only me and one other Cygnar player, neither of us uses B13th, and I doubt we're going to.

[PrudentMantis]

The Hunter may change, though - it's not in Prime, and we haven't seen the card decks yet, so there's still time (metaphorically speaking, I know the decks have already been printed, etc., I just mean there's still time until we know)

I still think think the Hunter should have either the Hunter or, preferably, the Sniper special rule, so you could choose the column/branch you're hitting/reliably kill one single-wound infantry model a turn. That, I think, would mean that his sub-par damage output went precisely where you wanted it.

Just a thought.

[GunMageinTraining]

I could do evil things with a hunter like that with eHaley and some ATGM+UA marshaling...

[AxeHappy!!]

The Black 13th were a killer unit in MKI which is why I picked them up on the day that they came out! In MKII they are a strong unit, but aren't the killers that everybody seems to make them out to be. With the changes they don't have Magekiller rounds, I DO like the bump to Lynch with Magesight. As it is they are one of the few things that I do own and are likely to see a large amount of play time due to the fact I own a grand total of 60 some odd points according to the new rules. I think that at 4 points yes they are a heck of a deal, but they aren't quite as potent as the Great Bears or the Menites, I definately don't think that they are as buffed as the WitherShadow, but the ghost raiders are gonna get smoked if they show up with the 13th on the table.

[Lexington]

This is, I am aware, a subjective and irrational rant. But fluff wise, a small strike force? Of three individuals? That turns up at every tiny battle...?
While I sympathize with the idea of wanting battles to reflect a somewhat-realistic matching of forces in the Iron Kingdoms, the fact is, it's an inherent part of the game since Epics came out - you have a whole bunch of warcasters battling others who they don't temporally exist with all the damn time.

[Griffin839]

I pair my Blk 13 with a base unit of 6 Long Gunners. This way the Blk 13 can light up whatever stealthy thing needs to be shot and the long gunners with their repeating rifles and combine range attacks can make sure they are dead. Its only 2 more points than a full ATGM +UA unit but that two points is more than worth all the extra versatility provided by the Blk 13/LG combination.

[ricefrisbeetreats]

I don't really see them needing a point increase. I don't think I've taken them in 1 MK2 game yet. Ok, I think once.

Either way, they don't usually provide much more than an anti-stealth capabilities that is easily done by the Gunmage unit. And, they give me my favorite Defender/Gunmage combo of long range death.

If the black 13th go up to 5 points, I'd like to see them get some sort of drive. I'm going purely on memory, but they are still jack marshals, right?

[ar2]

I don't really see them needing a point increase. I don't think I've taken them in 1 MK2 game yet. Ok, I think once.

Either way, they don't usually provide much more than an anti-stealth capabilities that is easily done by the Gunmage unit. And, they give me my favorite Defender/Gunmage combo of long range death.

If the black 13th go up to 5 points, I'd like to see them get some sort of drive. I'm going purely on memory, but they are still jack marshals, right?

They were never 'jack marshalls. Sorry!

[ricefrisbeetreats]

Curses! See how much I used them?

I must have mixed up icons at some point. Curse icons too!

[halffiend]

They are great at filling the last few points in a list and they usually kill more than thier points worth

[Vash1313]

Card in hand - still 4 pts.

[tensteam]

Card in hand - still 4 pts.
Any changes in other cards?

GMCA?

[Aries37]

Card in hand - still 4 pts.
Can anyone confirm? I wasn't even aware that the deck was out.

[Killionaire]

If they're still 4 points, I'd be absolutely shocked. Or rather, if nothing on their abilities changed. They're so very good, it's really foolish to make a (competitive) list that doesn't feature them.

[GunMageinTraining]

I've made a few, but I agree they are excellent. The only lists I tend to not use them in are ones with the ATGM+UA+Jack module.

[Arkady]

They are unchanged and still 4 points.

[Scalpel]

Every cygnar player I play against uses them.
QFT ... maybe that's just local meta ... but I see B13 everywhere!

[pureblood]

I for one don't use them!!!!!!

[admanb]

I for one don't use them!!!!!!

I think we still would've gotten your point if you had used fewer exclamation points. Like, say, one.

[Griffin745]

Any more than 3 exclamation marks is a sure sign of madness...

[pureblood]

I think we still would've gotten your point if you had used fewer exclamation points. Like, say, one.

Really! But then you didn't type it! I did! ;)


Any more than 3 exclamation marks is a sure sign of madness...

Hence why I don't use the Black XII........;)

[CT GAMER]

Were I to wish anything on the B13th, it would be a re-sculpt.

Maybe that is why they are only four points.

bad/out of scale sculpts +five points= less sales???

I'm just sayin.

[CT GAMER]

I think we still would've gotten your point if you had used fewer exclamation points. Like, say, one.


He should have used 13 of them for proper emphasis!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[raincaller]

any more than 3 exclamation marks is a sure sign of madness...


madness?!!!!!????11/!??
:d

[oninofro]

Maybe I'm a freak because I didn't field them that much in the previous ruleset and consider the Black 13th in MKII to be a viable alternative to 2 GMCAs.

[admanb]

Maybe that is why they are only four points.

bad/out of scale sculpts +five points= less sales???

I'm just sayin.

Given how powerful they were in MKI I think everyone who's ever played Cygnar already owns them. :P

Plus, they're cheap as ****, dollarwise. Hardly worth fudging balance for.

[lastspartacus]

They definately make dannon and bull weep tears of blood ^^

[whats82]

Now the question is, how many cygnar players have them painted ?

[mrhuettel]

Now the question is, how many cygnar players have them painted ?

do you mean the b13 or blythe and bull? i have both painted and use at least the b13 regularly, although they look like underfed hobbits in napoleonic garments.

well, they are the best hobbit assault squad i have ever seen.

[Dyoria]

I have them painted.

[Griffin745]

Now the question is, how many cygnar players have them painted ?

I have them painted, and painting is always at the bottom of my to do list. I think the fact they were smaller persuaded me to bother. :)

[Sideshow Lucifer]

Never bothered with them myself.