Kraye and the Cyclone

[Steamsmith]

I just wanted to throw this out there because i know i am going to abuse the hell out of it and i wanted to hear what you guys think.

For me the best thing that the Cyclone brings to the table for a Kraye list (besides the obvious synergy with guided fire and ride by attack) is two-handed throw.

Kraye is unique in that he has a very reliable way to stand up your own jacks even if they have been knocked down on your turn. The Thunderhead can two-handed throw, but is far too expensive for that ability alone and i don't see a good fit for the Thead with Kraye otherwise.

I have gotten some pretty nice caster kills, by slamming my own jacks forward to get more threat range an better charge angles during Kraye's feat turn, because i can stand them up so they can still activate normally. I once even pulled off a 6" slam with a hunter on Thorn to get a 23" total threat to win the game.

The Cyclone is a great fit because he can net you between 2.75" and 8.25" additional inches out of Stormclad or other large based melee 'jack. the two handed through is needed so that you have less of a chance of failure in the opposed strength check. This can also be a reliable 5.5" inches if you setup to target one of your own models in the back (a stormblade perhaps, DEF 10)

That is getting a Stormclad under full tilt and Kraye's feat threatening an incredible distance. (5" move + 5" full-tilt + 3" charge + 2" feat + 5.5" throw + 2" reach, so 22.5" with a bend.

He is showing up with 3 focus for
1 boosted MAT 9, boosted PS 19 charge attack
3 boosted MAT 7, PS 19 additional attacks
you also get the shield attack if you get close enough.

I think Kraye's jack bullet just went plaid. Hopefully you get the reference.

[bushi]

My problem with this tactic has been the use of heavy warjacks as the jack bullet. If you need a dependable assassination run, flat 1d6 vs. 2d6 is not odds I would like to play on a critical turn. In a similar vein, I have had quite a bit of success, relatively speaking, using Thorn as the bullet. Prior to the Cyclone, Thorn could still reach the opponent's deployment zone with relative certainty under Kraye's command through a combination of light warjack pushes, a bokur slam, and being thrown by the Thunderhead. While this doesn't really work to kill someone turn one, it does demonstrate the extreme distance Thorn can cover. If you can bullet with Thorn, even PS 13 on a charge is going to hurt warcasters that haven't been sapped by Eiryss. Repeated strikes help cause a little more. It isn't a finishing blow, but it is a threat they must/should deal with while your favorite Stormclad approaches with less opposition. That said, I think the Cyclone has a much more reliable use if you want to use heavy 'jacks, and that is one or two of them linked to the ATGM officer. They can use the push rounds for an unlikely maximum of 12d3" of movement. If they knock it prone, oh well, but you at least got something out of it.

[ar2]

I think Kraye's jack bullet just went plaid. Hopefully you get the reference.

"Wee're gooing too faast!"

[Sevwall]

This tactic would be okay. Usually, I just watch the video of the match to see what was going to happen, so that I can counter it before it happens.

[Arkady]

Ride by attack is of very marginal use when you are SPD5 and have 10" guns.

[Steamsmith]

Ride by attack is of very marginal use when you are SPD5 and have 10" guns.

i find it to more useful as a defensive ability. Shooting and then backing up.

[Broken_shards]

ive had some fun with a hammersmith under kraye +2mat (effective) from ironhorse and using full throttle to get round its lack of speed makes it very effective for going out there and removing problems

[trencher7]

I have gotten some pretty nice caster kills, by slamming my own jacks forward to get more threat range an better charge angles during Kraye's feat turn, because i can stand them up so they can still activate normally. I once even pulled off a 6" slam with a hunter on Thorn to get a 23" total threat to win the game.



Hmmm, as far as I know you may stand up when being knocked down in your own turn, but Kraye´s feat doesn`t say anything about activating normally as Darius´crane for instance says.
And shaking off the knock down effect has to take place at the beginning of your turn, I guess (I have to admit I do not have the rules here right now)
So I think you still have to forfeit movement or action to get up, haven´t you? I think the throw might not help you...

[hammy44]

As I understand it being thrown causes you to lose movement or activation NOT being knocked down. If this is the case, what?s being proposed would be illegal because even if you throw the Jax and then stand it back up, it still has the penalty of losing movement or activation. I admit I am at work and do not have my rules with me and am not 100% sure about this, but a similar question came up while I was using my dawgs Darius and THead and I am fairly sure this wont work. Can any one clarify as I am not 100% and would love to know???

[Steamsmith]

As I understand it being thrown causes you to lose movement or activation NOT being knocked down. If this is the case, what?s being proposed would be illegal because even if you throw the Jax and then stand it back up, it still has the penalty of losing movement or activation. I admit I am at work and do not have my rules with me and am not 100% sure about this, but a similar question came up while I was using my dawgs Darius and THead and I am fairly sure this wont work. Can any one clarify as I am not 100% and would love to know???

Thanks for assuming i don't know what i am talking about and then admitting you don't know what your talking about. perfect post.

The rules for throw cause a model that could not normally be knocked down (as a result of "steady" for example) to have to still sacrifice its move or action if it later activates that turn. this was to stop the flying drakun and hawk, and a host of other things like that.

There is no rule that says that if you throw your model and it CAN be knocked down, but if you have a way to stand it up before it activates, that it has to sacrifice it's move or action.

[Agamemnon]

I vote this one....nicely....



The rules for throw cause a model that could not normally be knocked down (as a result of "steady" for example) to have to still sacrifice its move or action if it later activates that turn. this was to stop the flying drakun and hawk, and a host of other things like that.

There is no rule that says that if you throw your model and it CAN be knocked down, but if you have a way to stand it up before it activates, that it has to sacrifice it's move or action.

That is a lot of effort to get somewhere. How often do you pull stuff like this in a game?

[hammy44]

Thanks for assuming i don't know what i am talking about and then admitting you don't know what your talking about. perfect post.

The rules for throw cause a model that could not normally be knocked down (as a result of "steady" for example) to have to still sacrifice its move or action if it later activates that turn. this was to stop the flying drakun and hawk, and a host of other things like that.

There is no rule that says that if you throw your model and it CAN be knocked down, but if you have a way to stand it up before it activates, that it has to sacrifice it's move or action.


Well again I do not have my book with me. That sounds correct... My question now is, is, does Kray's spell specifically state you get up and can act as normally? Because when you get tossed, you still suffer a KD effect from the toss. IF that?s the case, then it would work. Although I am not so sure PP will let that float for very long. It seems to be somewhat of a loophole but that?s just MHO....

[hackrune]

Kraye's feat reads 'Friendly knocked down Faction warjacks currently in Kraye's control area immediately stand up."
There's nothing in the rules that indicate a knocked-down warjack would still lose its activation for the turn. The key is that it IS knocked down, but Kraye immediately stands it up again, for no loss of activation/movement.

This is how I interpret it, anyway.

[hammy44]

Kraye's feat reads 'Friendly knocked down Faction warjacks currently in Kraye's control area immediately stand up."
There's nothing in the rules that indicate a knocked-down warjack would still lose its activation for the turn. The key is that it IS knocked down, but Kraye immediately stands it up again, for no loss of activation/movement.

This is how I interpret it, anyway.

Yes, you are right. The jax is tossed, kray activates, feats jax stands up, then ect ect... It would work... I am thinking it?s a lot of work however, for a possible opportunity but it would work. Also not sure they meaning PP won?t put an end to it eventually. Seems to be not exactly in the spirit of what they tried to do with the new rules, but I suppose that is a personal judgment I am making. Bottom line is by the letter, it is legal. Thanks for the clarification.

[Sevwall]

Its the one loophole that allows flying circus shenanigans. Many people tried to get it fixed in the fieldtest. No dice. It still works.

[Professor Lust]

Well at least kraye has something going for him...

[brotherscott]

It isn't a bad thing, and requires a good amount of resources to pull off. And it is a feat, which should be powerful and break a few rules since it is once per game.
If my opponent allows me to set something like this up, and I can get the assassination run off, more power to me, or rather, victory to me.
I may have to try it out at some point....

[Steamsmith]

That is a lot of effort to get somewhere. How often do you pull stuff like this in a game?

I just did it yesterday against a really good Mohsar list. I aced the caster on the charge attack. i still had three focus left on the storm clad for additional attacks.

This is not the only trick that Kraye has up his sleeve. i am actually surprised that Kraye gets so much hate on the forums. In our Meta in Minneapolis there are a few really good Kraye players and he gets the respect he deserves.

If you want to play a "point-and-click" caster, play Siege. If you want a do-over round because you can't figure out any real tactics, play eHaley. But if you want to play with the master of movement, death dealer by deception, the "what terrain?" caster, you play Kraye.

Remember, this is not "I win" this is Warmachine...earn it!

[Bladestorm]

I'm not sure there is such a thing as a "good Mohsar list" when the opposition is warmachine - his feat doesn't do much in that situation (nothing in fact if the opposition doesn't bring arc nodes). Toughness wise he is Nemo with +1 HP and access to transfers, but crucially no access to overboosting a power field or arcane shield - killing him isn't exactly a massive achievement :D.

[Steamsmith]

I'm not sure there is such a thing as a "good Mohsar list" when the opposition is warmachine - his feat doesn't do much in that situation (nothing in fact if the opposition doesn't bring arc nodes). Toughness wise he is Nemo with +1 HP and access to transfers, but crucially no access to overboosting a power field or arcane shield - killing him isn't exactly a massive achievement :D.

what other casters can you think of that can stand 4 PS 19 swings. 1 with boosted damage.

I'm not saying that Mohsar wasn't an easy kill, I'm saying that i used the technique (because i was asked if i did) , that it worked great, and i had focus left over for 3 additional attacks (that i didn't need, but they would destroy a tougher caster if i needed them to).

When you are 20+ inches away from an enemy warjack do you fully camp focus and/or fury to protect yourself from a charge? maybe you do, but i would think that a lot of people wouldn't see this coming.

[Bladestorm]

If it was Kraye I'd probably make a point of not leaving enough space near my caster/lock for a stormclad or other jack to get a charge lane.

Mohsar's best options for that is probably well placed sand pillars, and maybe a warbeast or two, though he's really a fairly poor warlock in general right now if the opposing army isn't a hordes one (Sunhammer being better vs warbeasts with there lesser HP, his attack spell being anti-infantry, his feat really only working vs warlocks and beasts)

I don't know that I've ever fully camped focus or fury in my time playing warmachine and hordes - typically I stick around 2 fury or whatever focus I have left after whichever spells I consider critical, but I do make a point of controlling the caster/lock's positioning relative to terrain and the rest of my army so there isn't an easy way to get to them.

Really I think my main reason for arguing the point was that you did make it sound like it was achievement when as you yourself have now stated, it was something of an easy kill.

I'm also interested in these other options you say he has :) He's decent at attrition and he has the once per game warjack bullet, but what other trick does he actually have up his sleeve that is unique to him ?

[Steamsmith]

I'm also interested in these other options you say he has :) He's decent at attrition and he has the once per game warjack bullet, but what other trick does he actually have up his sleeve that is unique to him ?

JACK BULLET
The Jack bullet is by far his greatest melee threat. It is really hard to stop this without playing way back and then keeping durable troops and/or jacks back as well. fine by me. Play defensively against Kraye, he will just whittle you down. Play aggressively against him, and he will exploit the assassination.

Because of tall-in-the-saddle you opponent would have to dedicate large based models to stand in front of their caster to block LOS. cloud effects won't cut it, because of Mage Sight. Also, you only need one model (heavy jack or Thorn) an in the case of the cyclone throw, 2 models to pull this off. This means that you have the rest of your force to clear the path. ATGM are pretty good at doing this as well.

Other Nice Things
Easy Rider lets you take on "inhospitable ground" without much worry. We don't have many any ways to give pathfinder to jacks in faction other than this spell. It won't be cast every game, but when you need it, you'll be very happy you have it.

Mage Sight allows you to see through woods and smoke and stealth. I think that it was ruled that Kraye could cast spells during a ride-by-attack, if that is the case he can move forward 4", cast Mage Sight up to 14" away (with squire) and shoot 13" twice (or 3 times with Reinholdt) taking out annoying stealth solos. If he doesn't hit the rest of your battle group has a chance to.

Cav rules grant a static +2 Mat to charge with jacks, which means our lowest mat on a charging jack is 8 with Old rowdy rocking an impressive 10. Don't forget impact attacks and tall-in-the-saddle, especially during the feat turn.

With the Mk2 buff to trample and full tilt your opponent should really fear for their units.

His feat effects other faction warjacks out of his battlegroup. Kraye is perfect for two caster games.

He is rocking Arm 20 with arcane shield, and with the buff to Sentinels getting shield guard, he doesn't have to rely on large based models and the fragile Bokur to protect him. IMO, Sentinels have the best synergy with Kraye over any other caster.

Our RAT is pretty high across the board, but if you really need to hit something, that is what Guided Fire is there for. it won't be used every round, but it can come in handy. I usually use rangers instead of guided fire, because it if really easy to get +2 RAT where you need it.

I know that most of this is pretty obvious, but this is a taste of what he can do.

Here is a 35pt list that uses most of these techniques:

Jeremiah Kraye
Centurion
Cyclone
Hunter
Squire
Journeyman
ATGM
Rangers
Reinholdt

Now there are going to be bad match-ups for sure. I see Kraye being a great second caster in a Steamroller event.

[Marius]

what other casters can you think of that can stand 4 PS 19 swings. 1 with boosted damage.

Saeryn under Foreboding.

Just being pedantic, not trying to take away from your Moshar kill :).

To Bushi: if i understand what your saying, you mean using the Arcane Tempest Officer's Rune Shot ability to push your own stuff? If that's the case, it won't work as you can only push enemy models.

[Chuck B]

I have a question, if Kraye used full tilt on a Cyclone could the Cyclone use its * attack(covering fire) ability?

[PrudentMantis]

I doubt it, considering that the Thunderhead can't use E-Pulse because it's a *attack under the Lightning Coil, and I can't imagine that the Suppressing Fire *Action/Attack isn't under the Heavy Chainguns - which means that when the arms are crippled, the Ramboclad couldn't Suppressing Fire then, either.

[whats82]

Suppression fire is *action, it is not an attack.
Pulse is *attack.

As worded it would appear one can full tilt and lay down cover fires.