grey lords inhale wind at a fast pace

[jack frost]

Honestly, during the field test I didn't play test these guys because I was all concernicus over esorscha. on top of losing smoke as a ranged attack, to mess with enemy formations, they lost a point of defense too. the Koldun went down to magicRAT 7 which means he's not any better at magic than his subordinates.

Honestly, I read all the previous discussions on these guys and the rat 7 sprays are great but these guys will always die and quickly...and now the koldun isn't really much help in dropping that first ice cage.

what have yourr experiences been?

[stray_bullett]

I keep crossing my fingers hoping that tiered lists will fix them amongst a few other models lol.

[hooksy67]

i will have to say that when i played my seaforge against them i lost a ton of troops on one turn of sprays and then they became public enemy number one each game since making me lob aoe's at them instead of yuri and the manhunters which i think is worth something that i am afraid of them

[Avecrien]

Ternions are one of the things I field much less now. The bright side is I feel less like I need them, but I don't like having models I can rarely justify fielding. There are a few lists that I want to run them in more for mk2 to have a more informed opinion. I'm definitely caught up in a bias of what I 'know' works and fixating on how best to move forward with those new core things until I have more of a comfort zone.

I was thinking a lot about these guys, thought I might put up a thread asking people about what models they're fielding more or less at this point.

[studderingdave]

four points really turns me off, the four point slot really is held by the widowmakers, and my 35 pointers are tight.

[Duckboy]

I would rather field 1 Koldun Lord which gives a focus to a jack for 2 pts than field Grey Lords for 4pts and have 2 more guys.

[JTY]

The 4pts band is held by Kossites as firmly as Widowmakers, Ternions are further down than that.
Hell, Eiryiss/Bokur and a freindly discard-dice wielding Gobber/wardog is 4pts.

Koldun Lord is worth some thought for his free Focus, but he has to compete with manhunters and Kell Bollock/Orin Midwinter for that band.

Ternions and Koldun Lord, at 6pts? the list of solid alternatives is quite endless.

And this without thinking about what the Widowmaker solo will bring for 2 or 3pts...



They are a bit pony, but I reckon that Zerkova's tiers will fix many woes.

F'r crying out loud, the amount of thought I've been putting into Zerkova of late her tiers had better bloody well benefit Ternions or I'll cry.

DO YOU WANT TO SEE A GROWN MAN CRY?

Ahem...
Yep, pony they are.

[ShockwaveIIC]

Lol Pony, wow thats and old term i've not heard for ages.

I was somewhat horrified today to find out the B13 were only 4 points...

[JTY]

Lol Pony, wow thats and old term i've not heard for ages.

Have you not heard that the 80's are back?
At my age the 80's are still very much where it is at.


I was somewhat horrified today to find out the B13 were only 4 points...

There are Cygnar players who call the B13 pony for 4pts.

Truly whinging soft southerner is as whinging soft southerner does.

[69Lazarus]

Koldun Lord is worth some thought for his free Focus, but he has to compete with manhunters and Kell Bollock/Orin Midwinter for that band.



He makes most of my lists but I also fight Cyganr alot. Cool to get rid of disruption...


I like the Greylords but they are expensive. Sprays are boss in MK II and I've had these guys buthcer my Banethralls on several occasions.

[Binz]

I think they are still useful in very specific situations. Magic shotguns aside, if you want them to be anti-infantry you are better off just taking the widowmakers.

I think their true unique ability is the Blizzards. Ice Cage is nice, but now you can shake off theres nothing worth ice caging. Ah, the days where my 3 man unit of Greylords spent the whole game freezing Thagroshs only carnivean solid are over.

As anti-ranged attacks, chucking the clouds to increase defence arent bad at all. Throw it on Karchev and hes DEF14, RAT7 missing half the time. (ish). Add a Bokur and Karchev is sitting pretty against ranged attacks. add Sidearms to the mix and you have a winner.

Otherwise, im just thinking of using them for buffs - have them behind a shield wall/winterguard swarm and throw out 3 clouds every round.

I have my fingers crossed for Zerkova tiers as well >.<

[Tevesh]

Pony?

Is this the same sort of meaning as crutch? I remember that was mostly used, though I remember saying that he had an "Eiryss Wheelchair" as he never ran a game without her.

[ShockwaveIIC]

I think their true unique ability is the Blizzards. Ice Cage is nice, but now you can shake off theres nothing worth ice caging. Ah, the days where my 3 man unit of Greylords spent the whole game freezing Thagroshs only carnivean solid are over.

While shake offs now make full freezing near pointless, Ice cage still has it's uses.

Something that I started doing before MKII came into being was to use Ice Cage as a straight de-buff so that I didn't have to use boosts and such like hit help with the hits. Being that the targets could be seen over my MoW and IFP allowed them to stay a little safer.

However, saying that since they have become 4 pts for the unit, I am finding it VERY tough to get them in any list at the minute.

[Binz]

While shake offs now make full freezing near pointless, Ice cage still has it's uses.

Something that I started doing before MKII came into being was to use Ice Cage as a straight de-buff so that I didn't have to use boosts and such like hit help with the hits. Being that the targets could be seen over my MoW and IFP allowed them to stay a little safer.

However, saying that since they have become 4 pts for the unit, I am finding it VERY tough to get them in any list at the minute.

Thats the same issue i have. 4pc seems too much for the Greylords arguably 1 decent ability. Especially with their DEF lowered to boot. -2 DEF is actually quite a good debuff, especially since very little in Khador lowers defence anyway (except for Stationary and KD), but the problem i have is you are still only equivalent RAT7 to hit with it, so any target you actually want to drop the defence of (DEF15+) you probably arent going to hit anyway. No aiming the magic sucks.

With the Koldun lord, Battle Wizard could have its uses - charging and killing a weak model and then spraying the rest of its unit is always good, especially with a 9" charge and 8" spray that ignores most defenses. However, as a lot of people have said, for 6 points theres a lot of other options available.

[Khador247]

I still like them against Cryx when I know I'll be facing lots of troops and possibly Incorporeal troops. Of course they need to keep out of Purge range like everything else. I don't see me using them much against any other faction.

[scud]

Them being one of the few cold immune things in Khador (last I checked) theres at least some nice synergy with spells and feats.

*edit* I think I had a nightmare where I imagined that the Greylords WEREN'T immune to cold... and when I woke up, the nightmare didn't end...

[General Nemo]

The real big thing here is that sprays ignore a lot of things in MK II, making these guys extremely effective troop killers, in addition to providing concealment with Blizzard and freezing/debuffing targets with Ice Cage. Would you really feel justified in taking such versatility at less than 4 pts.? They die easily only when you make mistakes with poor positioning, considering that they have their own built-in concealment. I'm not saying they are a bargain by any measure, but they are definitely worth every bit of their 4 pts.
You should give them a try before you make such a sweeping judgment of a unit.

[riven5]

Well I don't think Koldun Lords require any defending, though Greylord Ternion may. I don't really know, I intend to give them the old college try in some of my upcoming lists. One use I'm considering for them; frost up an enemy warjack before sending in our Jugger/Pikemen/whatever. I understand that a warjack with DEF 12 is utterly hittable on average rolls with a MAT of 6. Just not with my dice.

It'll be nice to attack an enemy warjack that is rocking DEF 10. Plus I have to admit I have had only remarkably good experiences with my Koldun Lords spray attack, which is identical to the Ternion spray.

I once killed Haley in one shot with it. Tee hee.

[OldOneEye]

As the guy who first referred to the Greylord Ternion as "guys with magic shotguns", I cannot overemphasize how good those sprays are, and how those sprays drive the price of the unit up to 4 pts.

I looked at them from the start of the Field Test, and balked at the price. I was bound and determined to playtest them extensively and PROVE that 4 points were too much.

It never happened.

Frost Bite is their real strength now, but it's such a strength because of other factors. The first factor is the new formation rules. That really helps out a small unit like Greylords-- those three models can really spread out, which lets them approach units from different angles and lay down their sprays for maximum coverage. The boost to their SPD also helps, expanding their threat range to 14". Then you factor in all the inherent strengths of sprays now, and theirs are done at an ability score of 7.

Think of it like this. Three guys with magic shotguns that hit on 7+2d6 would be worth 3 points easily. You get that, and two other pretty good spells besides. They're worth 4 points.

[DemonCalibre]

I have had a great deal of success with Greylords, they are a INSANELY strong second wave unit.

Generally, I use Blizzard on my Shocks/AKs/Iron Fangs/Widowmakers(A cloud that follows them and procs camo is awesome!). then on turn three when me and my opponent start mixing it up, they come up and dismantle my opponent with frostbite, I have had them pickup whole units of Sentinels and BaneKnights with Frost bite.

While I would have prefered them to have pips, to make them more resilent to AOE(losing one to a AOE drift sucks!), but they are still solid choices, just a bit less of a no brainer then they were in MK1

[Tevesh]

Them being one of the few cold immune things in Khador (last I checked) theres at least some nice synergy with spells and feats.

I just checked the PDF, they are not immune to Cold.

Ah, the Greylord connumdrum. Last time we had this thread it became locked, let's try to keep that in mind with this discussion.

Something I noticed with the Ternion is that the newer players (judging by join date, which can be flawed) do not like the Ternions; while the older players, who would be more experienced, do like the Ternions. This designates what sort of unit they are: finesse based. An older player has a lot more tricks up their sleeve, so they can work a unit that is "all ability" rather than "one focus".

Newer players take a look at Ternions and don't see a specific purpose; they replace the the 4 point slot with the man killing power of our Widowmakers or use a combination of solos if they need a specific purpose (2 Manhunters, Bokur and War Dog, etc.). Older players can make the Ternions work, and that's why I think they like 'em.

So... Khador is a pretty direct faction, so the current incarnation of Greylord may not mesh well with people's factional expectations (something a veteran can overcome and utilize). Hence why I see a lot of splits between "Greylords are crappy buff/debuffers" or "awesome Magic Shotguns (TM - Patent Pending for OldOneEye)". I think the key relies on being able to blend the two schools of thought, to use the diversity of such a flexible unit.

(Just observations. I personally believe I'm quite the scrub.)

[JTY]

Pony?

Not quite a horse when what you want is a horse. Serves the purpose, but your feet still touch the ground.

[OrsusSmash]

(snipped for size considerations) Truth

What Tevesh is talking about is one of the two reasons I see people say the Ternion are bum nuggets. The other reason being, of course, personal preference. Both of these are related to something Tevesh mentions in his post: unit purpose.

The Ternion are army support. They're not designed to be up front picking off troopers like the Widowmakers, or blasting things from afar like our artillery. Ternion are there to support whatever needs it with their incredibly flexible set of abilities.

Need to buff yourself up a bit vs. ranged? Toss some Blizzards on your models for the +2 DEF, or toss 'em on something they can't easily get rid of (my favorite is a pair of Manhunters) and run those Blizzards in front of your army to block LOS.

Khador warjacks are known (and feared) for their hitting power, but their accuracy is still on the weaker side. Nothing that can't be fixed with an Ice Cage or two! One Ice Cage on a target gets a Khador warjack to effectively MAT 8, and two is MAT 10; three is pretty much completely unnecessary, unless going after a warcaster. It helps tremendously by reducing the amount of boosting to hit you need to do against the target, it makes it more likely that you will hit (even when you may not have boosted in the first place i.e. vs DEF 12,) and it allows you to boost damage or buy extra attacks with that focus.

Ice Cage is a very powerful ability to have on a unit in general. An accurate DEF debuff can be used in many different ways to enhance your army's ability to hit (and therefore maim/kill) your targets.

And lastly, the oft discussed "magic shotguns". I just say this: having this crew of "street sweepers" available as second line troops is invaluable, and it has clinched me many a game.

The key to Ternion is using them as a second line squad; they aren't really designed for anything else. Keep them back, spread them out, and realize that they aren't there to shine on their own (unless they get a chance to wreck a unit with Frost Bites,) but the support they offer is very flexible and extremely useful for thier cost.

I can see why people have trouble fitting them in 35 points; at that level, 4 points is a lot. Also, it comes down to playstyle preference. Some people want every model out there actively killing, while some folks want support. In any case, I'm firmly in the camp that the Ternion are just fine for their points cost. They may not be an auto-include, but they bring more than enough to the table to justify their presence.

[Shadow37]

What I like about Greylords is that they have a use at every stage of the game. In the first couple of rounds they use Blizzard for DEF buffs and to block LOS. Mid to late game they continue to use Blizzard, use a Frostbite here or there, and start Ice Caging when needed.

Greylord's stock went up considerably when Privateer took away screening. Being able to surgically block LOS is HUGE in the present day meta.Since many Khador warcasters are more up front then other faction casters, being able to block LOS is critical. People who play against Cryx know what I'm talking about.

[Yeti's Yell]

Ternion have more value for specific builds, which is really true for almost anything else in the game. Throw in playstyle and usefulness is subject to a ton of truths, from different perspectives.

There are great point/counter points here so I won't rehash a "me-too" sentiment echo. I'll be specific.

I will say that I run them at 25 points and are invaluable for protecting pButcher. They are a true second line unit for me. I don't think they have sprayed anything in my MK2 games, they just keep Blizzard going to block LOS to Butcher. Paying 4 points to deliver Butcher to his killing appointment rested and on time is a big thing, well worth it. Hell, I've used them to lock down flanking arc nodes too.

I realize they may not do much for other Khador casters. But until my opponents learn to take the Ternion out I will probably keep having the same sort of success. So the point is, 4 points for Blizzard alone seems worth it to me.

[Gnoa]

So basically I think what a lot of you are saying is the Greylords are not intended for the aggressive mindset. I tend to play highly aggressive myself, and maybe that is why i generally do not to take them in my lists.

When i say aggressive, i mean you won't see them in melee combat on turn 2 or 3. They seem like they fall under the tactical unit category.

This may seem dumb, but i will probably play them more once the template set comes out as SPs generally cause our games to slow down right now. :p

[69Lazarus]

I think you can be agressive as a counter unit. Many opponents will be coming to you and that is likely the time they'll become offensive in nature. I've had those RAT 7 sprays totally hose my stuff before and I've done it to tohers as well. I actually prefer these guys now over the widowmakers for the versatility they bring to the table.

[Poet]

Greylords bring a lot of unique abilities to the table.
Defense debuff, clouds and sprays.
Those are three things we can't really get elsewhere.

If you just use one of them, then greylords are very meh.
If you use two of those, then they are ok, but still a little expensive.
If you can learn to use all three, your got yourself a good unit for the cost.

Greylords to me, are not what they used to be, but they are still good.
I'll tell you the truth, I have a hard time getting them into my lists.

[OrsusSmash]

So basically I think what a lot of you are saying is the Greylords are not intended for the aggressive mindset. I tend to play highly aggressive myself, and maybe that is why i generally do not to take them in my lists.

When i say aggressive, i mean you won't see them in melee combat on turn 2 or 3. They seem like they fall under the tactical unit category.



I think this is pretty accurate. For example, even though I love my Ternion, I don't take them with Butcher2. I'm way too busy running screaming across the table for them to be able to keep up, and I don't really need their support in that list. Likewise, my Vlad1 lists are built for speed, so I usually don't bring them there either (though S+P sprays are disgusting.)

I tend to use them with warcasters that benefit the most from the additional support they bring, and advance at a pace that allows the Ternion to settle into thier "second line" groove, like both Irusks or Sorscha2.

[jack frost]

The real big thing here is that sprays ignore a lot of things in MK II, making these guys extremely effective troop killers, in addition to providing concealment with Blizzard and freezing/debuffing targets with Ice Cage. Would you really feel justified in taking such versatility at less than 4 pts.? They die easily only when you make mistakes with poor positioning, considering that they have their own built-in concealment. I'm not saying they are a bargain by any measure, but they are definitely worth every bit of their 4 pts.
You should give them a try before you make such a sweeping judgment of a unit.

eh? I did "try" them...that's why I'm posting now as opposed to when their rules just came out and no one had time to test them yet. I read all the negatives and decided to play them anyways. I also asked what peoples experiences have been. I didn't ask for some vague theorymachine about how good sprays are in mk2.

I've played with them and they die to un-aimed shooting from anything....sure they can give themselves concealment but they should be giving that concealement to someone else or doing spray attacks or failing at ice caging anything that you need to make easier to hit.

def 13 is too easy to hit and they auto die to almost every weapon out there. they also have to be 5 inches from the model they smoke up which puts them dangerously close to the aoe's that will target said models...

yes they have versatility, but they also have zero survivability...even the 5 wounds on the koldun is a joke at arm 13 and now he isn't any better at hitting than his trainees. at the end of the day it doesn't matter how good your rat 7 magic spray attack is if you'll never use it because you have too few numbers, too low def and no way to mess with the enemy before you get into spray range.

I would take them happily at 3 pts or I would take them at 4pts with def14 and a 4inch cloud for their blizzards (to make up for the loss of tossing it at the enemy).

as it stands...you have to build in a support network to protect these guys when they're supposed to be the support for your caster.... they're supposed to be annoying to your enemy and helpful to you....they aren't supposed to be butchering troops at the front lines (especially since they don't have the stats to survive up there).

[jack frost]

I just checked the PDF, they are not immune to Cold.

Ah, the Greylord connumdrum. Last time we had this thread it became locked, let's try to keep that in mind with this discussion.

Something I noticed with the Ternion is that the newer players (judging by join date, which can be flawed) do not like the Ternions; while the older players, who would be more experienced, do like the Ternions. This designates what sort of unit they are: finesse based. An older player has a lot more tricks up their sleeve, so they can work a unit that is "all ability" rather than "one focus".

Newer players take a look at Ternions and don't see a specific purpose; they replace the the 4 point slot with the man killing power of our Widowmakers or use a combination of solos if they need a specific purpose (2 Manhunters, Bokur and War Dog, etc.). Older players can make the Ternions work, and that's why I think they like 'em.

So... Khador is a pretty direct faction, so the current incarnation of Greylord may not mesh well with people's factional expectations (something a veteran can overcome and utilize). Hence why I see a lot of splits between "Greylords are crappy buff/debuffers" or "awesome Magic Shotguns (TM - Patent Pending for OldOneEye)". I think the key relies on being able to blend the two schools of thought, to use the diversity of such a flexible unit.

(Just observations. I personally believe I'm quite the scrub.)

hrmmm i notice my join date trumps your join date.... what's up with all the condescension people? I played them...I don't suck at this game...I asked people what their observations were, not how to play warmachine.

and OrsusSmash: the problem with keeping them back is that they have to be within 5 inches to get their blizzards off... and they have to get them off on units that are on the front lines.... that's too close for a support unit to be and still live while it also wastes the magic shotgun which is the reason they cost so bloody much.

[OrsusSmash]

"Keeping them back" is, in this case, relative. Yes, they do need to be within 5" of whatever they want to Blizzard, but that is after movement, and the other unit is free to move after wards. The effective Blizzard range is 11", and the model affected is free to run/charge/whatever after. When I use them, I don't actively try to keep them back; in the process of tossing around Blizzards, they'll naturally end up in the second wave as the rest of my army advances.

I also agree they are soft, but there are ways to naturally keep them alive. The best is to give your opponent plenty else to worry about. If they're dealing with IFP, Manhunters, and a pair of Warjacks at their door, I don't think many opponents will have the resources to deal with all that and still take care of the Ternion.

Yes, random AoEs and the like will likely grease them, but that goes for any "soft" model, and the Ternion are heartier than most "soft" models at ARM 13. Ask Menoth how they feel when that happens to their choir, or Cygnar when it happens to their ATGM's. ;)

9/10, the best way to keep the Ternion alive is through pressure. Keep pressure on the enemy, and they won't have the resources necessary to take care of the Ternion. And if they do divert resources to kill the Ternion, your other models (which are likely the focus of your offensive strategy) are that much more likely to be able to get in and do their job.

jack frost, the above explanation isn't meant to imply you don't know how to play the game. Given the medium of communication, I cannot assume how you use the models, so I describe what I do so you (and more importantly, anyone following the thread, particularly new players) understands how I've gotten good effect from the Ternion.

I would also add the following, for consideration: I think all of us were spoiled by Mk. I Ternion, which I believe were undercosted for their abilities, especially given the effectiveness of Ice Cagex3.

[Gnoa]

My experience is you have to have a clear idea of what you are going to do with the Greylords when you play them. You have to stick to your guns and try not to veer from your plan.

Unfortunately i don't play that way, although i have been trying. It has nothing to do when with when i started Khador, and everything to do with how i play my armies.

In Mki you rarely saw Widowmakers, Greylords, or Mortars in my list. That is not my playstyle as they were not aggressive enough for me. Did it hurt my game...maybe. But i was very happy with my win\loss ratio.

[Indy]

My beef with these guys is that they only have one wound each. They gave Runeshapers five wounds each, because a piddly little unit of three squishy mages is weak... so when will the Greylords get wounds?

[tedwin183]

My typical tactic for them is to put them behind a Shield Walled MoW ST minimal squad, blizzarding them down the field. I let the MoW accept a charge, have the Greylords pop out of the side and magic spray the crap out of everything that charged. Nearly finished off an entire squad of Bastions with them just about an hour ago. They aren't the all-imposing, magic gods they once were, but they have A LOT of utility still...just gotta learn to play them differently now. I'm finding that's the truth with all models in the game. Many of them are still just as good, but they have a different play style now.

[Beastman]

I agree with tedwin183 entirely, I use them almost the same was but usually with IFP. They are a strong second line troop. Nice support and debuff, but the magic sprays are just frosty death to most enemy rank and file.

They were monsters in MKI, but I have used them to great effect in MKII also.

[ShockwaveIIC]

I've just remembered another reason why i've been put off them, silly as it is.

When I play Khador I play 70% Irusk, his feat doesn't help magic attack rolls anymore.


Though, I am running Butcher currently, Frostbites under feat would be rather funny.

[Tevesh]

I would also add the following, for consideration: I think all of us were spoiled by Mk. I Ternion, which I believe were undercosted for their abilities, especially given the effectiveness of Ice Cagex3.

QFT.

There have been many things that were nerfed/repurposed with Mark II that made me realize how undercosted they are. Mortars are the biggest one I can think of. For 25 points, they were a bargian. In Mark II, I need to seriously think if I really want Mortars.

@jack frost: And yes, looking at your join date I believe you would be a better player than me. If you don't like Greylords, it's probably your play style that is an antithesis to Greylord use.

I think Greylords are a sort of "skill test". The best analogue I can think of is the Battle Rifle and Assault Rifle in Halo 3. The AR just spits bullets out, which is very newbie friendly. The BR shoots in 3 round bursts with more powerful bullets. The BRs slower, contained shot against the hail of bullets of the AR is a skill test. Using the Battle Rifle means you can fire accurate head shots, using the Assault Rifle requires you to get really close to be effective. Now, the experienced player would want distance, but if the opponent gets right up against them, the AR is a better weapon.

In other words, the AR is good at distances that the new player is familiar with (close quarters). The Battle Rifle is better at mid-long. It takes more skill to finally be able to hit at longer distances, but the merits of the weapon are in how they are designed. Going back to Greylords, if you're able to keep the enemy at that "mid-range" you can really enjoy the Ternions. If you are outside of that effective range, then Widowmakers and Mortars (for long distance) or Bokur and War Dog (close quarters) are the better choice.

I'm guessing you get in there before the opponent has a chance, or you shell them with our extreme range. Most of the praise of the Greylords have involved the MOW ST being charged, or having the Greylords as a counter based force. So you're disappointed with Greylords, because they are unable to work with the terms you've set to fight the enemy.

You are not making a mistake, that's just your style.

[Stevenswayze]

I like these guys personally, I usually get my moneys worth from them. I think another issue with them is the comparisons between them and Runeshapers and the B13(which is out of control).

I really do think they are slightly overcosted at 4 points but I do not think they are overcosted agaisnt our own faction. I generally get as much play from them, as I do Widowmakers. I use them in a couple of different roles.

Against Menoth, I run them up the flank like a Tie Fighter squadron. They can get into a position fairly quicky to get rid of Wracks, and then flank into the creamy nougat of a Menoth brick.

I also use them as that 2nd line of infantry, that buffs the front line. Smoke clouds strategically placed on Shocktroopers might not up their survivability but a 9" wall of LOS blockage that is very tough to get rid of is nice. If terrain is light I just put it on my Widowmakers, and use my now DEF18 widowmakers to block LOS to my army(in addition to shootin, and being pesky). I also run Ternions in my Irusk lists with Kayazis so that my DEF19 Kayazis with stealth are creating the 9" wall of LOS blockage.

They can usually force my opponent to have to deal with my frontline first, which then allows my Ternions to act as 1st responders, which is a role they excel. They can really just clean out whole swaths of infantry, and get the numbers game back in your favor in a hurry.

Finally the Ice Cages have not gone anywhere, and are still situationally money.

I like the 5 wounds idea, or adding force barrier, since random AoEs are basically my only headache with these guys. I am just not sure if these guys are overcosted or if it is just a deal where other people have 4pt options that are out of control. (again, the B13th come to mind).

[thrasymacus]

I was the one who originally pointed out that, per wound, Greylords are the most expensive unit in the game. Consider that a unit of Ogrun Boarding Party dudes cost 4 points and have 24 wounds. I know they have a different role, but still, that's freaking insane.

The Cephalyx Overlords are really similar to Greylords but they are so much better. They are also a support unit, just like Greylords, but they are multi wound. I know they aren't even that popular, but go take a gander at their special rules and be prepared to be amazed. You like Greylord RAT 7 magical shotguns? Well imagine if they ignored LOS and Terrain.

The Choir is 2/3 points for 4/6 models is it not? So for 3 points they have twice the wounds of the Ternion yet cost a point less.

The Ternion need more wounds, just like every other comparable unit. Also, whenever I try to ice cage anything worth ice caging I miss.

[jack frost]

okay wow...the grey lords are complete *** compared to the cephalyx... the smoke clouds and FA3 are not a fair trade for

+1 def mat and str, 4 more wounds per model, fearless, ignoring terrain and LOS and anatomical precision.

come on... this has to be changed....

greylords should get all that except fearless ignoring LOS and terrain and anatomical precision and the koldun should get magic [8] since he doesn't even have the smoke template.

[69Lazarus]

You can compare them to overlords if you like.....I don't field overlords when I play Cryx but I do play my greylords when I run my Khador.The problem is that they might comopete with other things that do not even do what they do (like a node for example). Only soo many points in a list to spend. I think the mobile LOS blocking and accurate sprays alone fill a big hole in Khador while the overlords don't fill much of anything.

[Gnoa]

These comparisons are kind of funny, but i think the argument-fu is weak...


Runeshapers:
5 wounds because the are medium base figures! I do not want PP to ever feel they can make a medium based model one wound! Does anyone want a 1 wound Man-o-War? I can't honestly think of one medium base figure who has 1 wound.

Black 13th
Read through the Cygnar forums and see how often you see something like "I used to field B13 all the time, but now they just don't seem worth it". They are in the same boat as Greylords and they even cost less. I think this is an example of the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence.

Cephalyx
They have been voted as pretty much the most useless unit in the game. Read through Merc or Cryx forums about who uses them. From my observations it is only those who thought it might be fun to try them out. They are not competitive and their synergy with their other Cephalyx is weak. Cryx players wish they had the problems of the Greylords that they do have with Ceph.

[hoya4life3381]

The other reason Greylords could become obsolete is because of PP dedication to propping up Winter Guard. Since WG have sprays, have ways of boosting sprays (Joe), and have great DEF/toughness, they are a self-contained unit.

Iron Fang Pikeman + Greylords + Iron Flesh is another good combination to get DEF 18/ARM 18 and have sprays ready for second line. Still this costs 14 pts and is kind of prone to being traded off by a cheaper faster unit killing off your IFP.

[Garangoor]

@Gnoa: Well don't think you are right on the B13, because just recently there was a threat in the Cygnarforum stating otherwise.
And for the medium based models with only one wound, please look at the kriel warriors or the fennblades, they are both medium based and one wound. I don't think the medium base has to do a lot with wounds, but it plays in there somewhere.

[69Lazarus]

Yeah, winterguard have sprays but do they have magic sprays? I rejoice when playin my Cryx against Khador where they didn't take Greylords as it means my machine wraiths likely get to take over warjacks.

[JTY]

Black 13th
Read through the Cygnar forums and see how often you see something like "I used to field B13 all the time, but now they just don't seem worth it". They are in the same boat as Greylords and they even cost less. I think this is an example of the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence.

No, it's an axample of whinging soft southerners.

Can you imagine the noise they'd be making if they had Greylords for 4pts/unit?

[OldOneEye]

These comparisons are kind of funny, but i think the argument-fu is weak...


Runeshapers:
5 wounds because the are medium base figures! I do not want PP to ever feel they can make a medium based model one wound! Does anyone want a 1 wound Man-o-War? I can't honestly think of one medium base figure who has 1 wound.

Most Troll models in both games are single-wound. Boomhowler's trolls are; so are the Bloodgorgers. Pretty much anything with the word "Kriel" in its name in the Trollblood army is single-wound.

[Gnoa]

Ok ok ok, there are medium based trolls with 1 wound :p, but i do believe that is why the Runeshapers get 5 wounds. That and they are intended for more frontline duty.

[Stevenswayze]

Yeah but the Black 13th are generally called the 'Broke 13th' beause they are completely out of control good. People who think the B13 is not worth the points are completely out of touch with reality.

Also if you read long enough you will find a thread stating pretty much anything. They are like statistics in that they can be misleading.

Also, Runeshapers USED to be 1 wound each but they got buffed.

B13 have 5 boxes on small bases, and they just do a lot more.

I do not know about the Cephalyx overlords, but they also have 5 boxes and do a bunch of things(wether or not they are any good is another matter).

I re state though, the B13th are freaking excellent, and I would trade for them.

[DemonCalibre]

I think the comparison to other 4 point unit's actually justifies Greylords even more.

Overlords, look cool, but never hit the table, because their competition in slot is vastly higher then Greylord, and they are a purely offensive tool. Do I take overlords? Gerlak? Hell Diver? Nightwretch?. Because of this they tend to get benched for more conventional tools, as accurate sprays aren't enough for Cryx(there influence ability is token, as the spell is sistuational), While they fight in hand to hand, Cryx has vastly better options for cheaper in that area.

Runeshapers - again a purely offensive unit, that has to cluster up to be effective, suffers attrition from losing it's memebers, and honestly don't do much, Tremor is cute, but hard to use, and their nuke is the same range as a blunderbuss, and will frag themselves, and their peers if used in combat.

Black 13(or more aptly Broke 13) is a bad comparison, realistic, Swans freely admit they were surprized and delighted when Privateer made them 4 points. What Gnoa is talking about is from the field test release, When Black 13 went from Wins games single handiedly, to Solid, and now are back up into the best 4 points in the game.

Rhoven + Bodyguard: They can fight sorta in hand to hand, but mostly sit around and provide anti-stealth tech.

Greylords ability wise, are very compeditive, as that they offer more abilities, In turn 1 and turn 2, they can provide Concealment and LOS blocking with Blizzard(A powerful defensive ability that no other 4 point unit can even touch), In the turn of the Assault, they can Ice cage a target, to allow it to be shot and softened up before your melee runs in, and removes the chance to miss against models to ensure destruction(even if you don't stationary it, -2 defense by itself is enough), and Once things get close, and the armies are mixing it up, they come packing Heat with Magical Shotguns of the Frozen North.

Name me another 4 point unit, that is going to Provide a critical defense buff, offer up a defense penality when you need it, and have a decent chance of actually killing enough models to make all the points back all in the same game?

The answer is clear my Komrades, It's Greylords, though I won't like 5 hp would be nice.

[thrasymacus]

In a heartbeat! Letting the B13 slip by was a giant snafu. The B13 are not a frontline unit, have Stealth and DEF 15 and Multiwounds, all things that make them more survivorable. However, they are undercosted.

For the Cephalyx, it's hard to say they are bad when they do so much of what greylords do only better. Mind you, I never said Cephalyx were good, just well costed, which is what Greylords are not. Greylords are good, but they are not 4 points good. They have obvious abilities and synergies and no one is debating that. Cephalyx have Sacrificial Pawn and Fearless, higher ARM and multiwounds, everything they need to survive some lazy fart of an AOE that lands in their business. Despite that, they are still very killable. The difference is it takes modest effort while killing greylords does not.

You guys are defending the status quo without considering that the reason Greylords stayed at 1 wound was simply because they always were 1 wound. It's simply the case that 3 model units are multi wound, with greylords being the only exception.

I used them in Mark I and I've used them in Mark II and I consider them to be somewhat lacking. Sometimes the grass actually is greener on the other side.

edit. I love how people talk about Ice Cage as if it worked automatically when in fact you need 9's to hit a Cygnar Caster with zero buffs. Ice Cage is to Greylords what Strangle Gas is to Assault Kommandos; a neato ability that almost works.

[jack frost]

Ok ok ok, there are medium based trolls with 1 wound :p, but i do believe that is why the Runeshapers get 5 wounds. That and they are intended for more frontline duty.

why is that? is it because there offensive spells require them to be within 8 inches of the enemy? or because their support spells require them to end their turn within 5 inches of the front line?

because if that's the case...well greylords need that buff too.

I play against cryx a lot and I can tell you why I believe cryx players don't like the overlords: they have a large selection of models that fill similar roles and do the job better and live longer.

does that mean that the one unit we have that fills this role for us should be sub par? ask yourself this question:

should one factions single support unit be sub par because another faction has a plethora of above par support units and solos?

and don't forget that cryx as a faction has a lot of spells and abilities that keep their squishy stuff alive, replace one dead thing with another, hell the overlords have a whole unit of guys who will jump in the way of attacks against them imagine a unit of 3 kovnik joes who are also greylords with no speeches).

now let's look at the black 13th.

4pts
5 wounds each
rat 8, 8 aaaaaand 8
gunfighter doesn't count because greylords are also gunfighters
magical weapons (same as above)
range10 or 14 magical weapons (not same as above)
def 15!!!!! <--- this is key here folks
ignores concealment camouflage and stealth
free:
black penny- fire into melee w/o penalty
brutal damage- obv
(lynch)fire beacon- gives everyone the ability to ignore camo and stealth and allows other models to ignore cloud effects when drawing los to it
(ryan) *attack mage storm: aoe 4 everyone underneath takes pow 12 magic
(watts) granted prowl- stealth while in a cloud or forest


that's a pretty brutal list of options for 4pts my friends. they kill better, at range against harder to kill models and they aree harder to kill because they have more wounds , better defense and don't need to be as close to the enemy to be massively effective.

of course it's important to look at the army as a whole....does cygnar have a synergy with ranged attacks? do they have any abilities that help keep 1 wound models alive? what about abilities that help them control LOS, stop you from getting them in melee or stop you from shooting them via smoke?

the answer is yes....this is a killer unit that synergizes perfectly with almost every caster and solo and unit in the cygnar army.

greylords are a support unit that won't go killing your enemies kill condition, doesn't synergize with every caster (vlad, sorscha, the OW, butcher [ I know they're still useful but these casters don't use the ternion to win games like stryker, caine, siege can use the b13]) like they were born together and won't survive an errant rocket attack let alone any attack at all.

hell I'd be fine if they just gave the smoke effect a range 10 and be done with it....I'm not asking for broken....just effective and reliable....it's our only bloody in faction support unit and they aren't even remotely comparable to their counterparts in other factions that do more than them and synergize better than they do in faction.

I sucked up the nerf to the destroyers axe, and drago's axe and imprint and I sucked up the nerfs to vlad and the old witch but this is too much. PLEASE, it is our only support unit and they're supposed to be killing whole armies with a spray attack when they can't survive within the 10inch range band vs other armies?

I love this unit, and I love the idea of them. I just don't want them to suck...Privateer, I'm asking you to review this unit before our book goes to the printers.

[JTY]

gunfighter doesn't count because greylords are also gunfighters

Come again?
To get Battle Wizzzzard we need to pay an extra 2pts for the Koldun.

[Tevesh]

Come again?
To get Battle Wizzzzard we need to pay an extra 2pts for the Koldun.

I think he means that since the Magic Shotgun is... uh... magical, you don't need to worry about being engaged. The Greylord can be in Base to Base and still wreck face.

[Redphantasm]

Long post comparing the B13 to grey lords.


I love this unit, and I love the idea of them. I just don't want them to suck...Privateer, I'm asking you to review this unit before our book goes to the printers.


I agree with most of your points, the B13 to synergize well with most of Cygnar, and they have a long list of killer abilities. But I have to ask: why would you compare greylords to the B13? Is it because they fill similar roles in vastly different armies?

Why not compare them to their sister unit, the Great Bears. Is it because for the same points the Great bears also have a plethora of special abilities and fit well with most Khador casters and Khador buffs? That seems like the most appropriate comparison to me. Both the B13 and Great bears stack up pretty well to eachother and are well classified as murder machines.

So again, why compare the B13 and greylords? Why should a wizard unit in a primarily melee faction be the equal of a character unit in a primarily ranged faction? Is there a reason these two should be comparable? Or is it just a desire to field the B13 with the rest of Khador's goodies?

[Jack Shandy]

or because their support spells require them to end their turn within 5 inches of the front line?

You said that before, but now that there's no SPD debuf, I have never found it hard to activate the Greylords first, advance them towards the front lines, blizzard up the frontline unit, and then move the front line forward.

[Avecrien]

I believe the comparisons come from similar point costs and similar roles.

Some of us reds are finding ourselves with what was a top of the line support unit for nearly any army that is now a niche unit that requires support. Course some are still very pleased by the old boys, more power to em :)
A player's meta and personal preferences color what he tends to need and field, and that covers a LOT of the discussion going on here.

I personally will now only field ternions against specific factions and opponents, and feel like I'm sacrificing on a chance they'll be useful rather than feel confident they'll pull their weight. I don't think my armies are currently weak or sorely lacking, I just miss using these models in a way I felt was competitive. I'll probably do things with the widowmaker solo and riflecorps many won't enjoy the reasoning of, some of whom might be avid greylord players. Fun fun.

[Redphantasm]

You said that before, but now that there's no SPD debuf, I have never found it hard to activate the Greylords first, advance them towards the front lines, blizzard up the frontline unit, and then move the front line forward.

Or charge the front line. Magical blizzards follow you wherever you go.

[tedwin183]

But that claim on the Black 13th isn't accurate at all. I'm sorry, but Cygnar is a shooting-based army. Khador is not. Never has been, never will be. Our shooting is, in general, short-ranged compared to Cygnar. The fact that the black 13th have better range and effectiveness at range doesn't necessarily mean they are instantly better than Greylords. If you play a game where the greylord's magic sprays save your life, you'll understand why I'm making this statement. Also, if you can get up on them fast, ala boundless charge, energizer, etc. you can charge the B13th. Even our most moderate melee unit, such as kossites, will rip them limb from limb in melee. I had the distinct pleasure of getting a charge off with the Great Bears on them. I poofed 2 on the charge and the 3rd survived because of TERRIBLE dice on my part, but panicked, only to be cut to ribbons on the ensuing turn.

Greylords are meant to synergize with other units, not be a standalone beatstick from afar like the B13 are. It's a totally, TOTALLY different playstyle. Sure, if you placed B13 on the board across from the Greylords, the B13 would win everytime. It's about synergy though. I just don't buy that. No offense.

[Dino-Czar]

It looked like someone was setting up a funny joke earlier in this thread, something about Khador players not whining. Now that this thread has been cross linked to the general forum I think we'd all like to hear the punch line.

[thrasymacus]

kossites need 10's to hit B13 in Melee. B13 hit kossites on 4's in Melee. B13 are a better Melee unit than kossites. Kossites are all about the Ambush.

Regardless, no one expects Greylords to be as good as B13. You guys are all missing the point. Try reading the whole thread. We just want greylords to be worth 4 points.

[Sinsation]

I wouldn't expect greylords to be as good as B13 on offense. B13 is a character unit, that kinda tilts things a bit I'd say.

I still dislike the blizzard change. While sure it's nice that we auto-hit friendlies, the loss of range and the ability to shut down charges with the spell sucks.

The speed bump to 6 is a very welcome change though.

[BlitzR]

The closest comparable unit I can think of are the Trollkin Runeshapers.

For the same points they get a unit of 3 spell casters.

Stats are in favour of the Trollkin, they are -1 SPD and DEF, +1MAT, and +2ARM. Even more telling is that they also have 5 damage each! Backed by Tough, these guys are fairly hard to kill, while Greylords die as soon as something considers hurting them.

As for spells and spell casting. The Greylords do have ability 7 vs 6. But the Trollkin get a cumulative +1 bonus for each other model in the unit within 1", so if they stay close...they are at an effective 8. It does mean they have to bunch up. But with ARM15 and 5 damage each, they don't have to worry about AOEs very much. The bonus also drops as models die, but they only become worse than Greylords magic ability once the are down to the last model.

The Greylords have 3 spells vs 2.
Both units have an RNG8 attack spell, the Greylords having a POW12 spray, the Trollkin a POW14 AOE with critical knockdowns. I would say that both spells are kinda on par.
Their 2nd attack spells are quite different. Ice Cage and Tremor. While Tremor has some great utility (One attack roll effects all models within 2", a hit knocks them down), it does mean that the Runeshapers needs to be right in the thick of things.

Both units have magical melee weapons, although with base MAT6, the Runeshapers have an edge.

The Runeshapers also have Steady, so they cannot be knocked down.

Considering the extra buffs that Trollkins can readily hand out for ARM, the Runeshapers are a far better buy than our Greylords. If Greylords are close enough to drop Ice Cages, they are usually dead the next turn. Other than wasting Iron Flesh on them to get their DEF up, or using other models to intervene, we have no real means of keeping them alive.

Back to my point, simply put, Greylords are way over costed. I don't even feel that as they currently stand that they are even worth 3pts. Maybe they would be if Blizzard returned to the MkI version (a both defensive and offensive spell)....and they had they DEF increased to 14 again!

[jack frost]

wow... I took my time... I thought it out and I even edited for nerd rage but my post was curb stomped in the main section by a bunch of people who just don't want to hear someone else's opinion. whatever...and thank god for our section of the forums where we can discuss this like mature adults. I don't think I've ever seen such rudeness on the forums before.

my point isn't that the greylords should be as effective as the b13 at killing or shooting. my point is this:

for 4 points, there is a level of "good at things" that a lot of different units meet. the b13 are very good at what they do and as i've mentioned other 4pt units are good at whatever it is they do and they all achieve a certain level of "good at something" that I beleive you can set the 4pt bar at.

the greylords aren't good enough at what they do for 4 pts. I don't think they should be killier, or that they should be impossible to kill. they should just be able to do their job well enough that 4pts is a reasonable price for them to come and do their job on the table.

[tedwin183]

But at the same time, if Greylords were 3pts, every other faction would be going "CHEETZ CHEETZ CHEETZ!" until they're blue in the face. They'd be undercosted at 3pts, they're slightly overcosted at 4pts. I think there are certain lists that greylords shine in, I also think there are playstyles that they shine with. Unfortunately, there's no such thing as 3.5pts, so 4 will have to do. I like it because they are no longer an auto-include. If you take them, you have to have a plan for them. Likewise, the same can happen with B13. I play a guy who, for whatever reason, can't figure out how to play B13 effectively. I smash him into the ground every game. On the other hand, I know guys who take over the game with them.

I think people get way too caught up on points costs. I've honestly never had a problem with any points costs for any units, Khador or otherwise. It's all a matter of learning the new quirks to every unit.

I completely agree though, there are units well worth their 4pts. Widowmakers, FTW.

[thrasymacus]

I honestly still wouldn't field them for 3 points, not as they are. That's the truth. I'd be tempted, but I'd still say no. If they could wander about as solos like Stormsmiths and cost 4 points for 3 I'd be happy with that (even though I say Stormsmiths are better than greylords).

[Waaargh]

As a side note that old Blizzard was game-shattering dull. As a Trollblood player I have seen it slow down my slow army in quite a few games, just so mortars, Winterguards and Widow Makers could keep firing for another turn. Ugh.

They are quite a different unit now, mostly they just step up and spray snow at my warrior units.

[jack frost]

I don't want them at 3 pts. if you gave them +1 def and 5 wounds each they would be worth the 4pts.

then give the koldun magic [8] and +1 def and he's golden too.

[thrasymacus]

That would work for me, though old Battle Wizard would also be nice.

[General Nemo]

It looks like the OP has made up his mind about them, and any logic we give him will be shot down by his particular brand of insistent semi-aggressive reasoning.

[Redphantasm]

the greylords aren't good enough at what they do for 4 pts. I don't think they should be killier, or that they should be impossible to kill. they should just be able to do their job well enough that 4pts is a reasonable price for them to come and do their job on the table.

But what you'll find in this thread is lots of people saying they are good enough at 4 points. There are players who love the cover that blizzards provide, love the debuffs of ice cages, and love the magic shotguns(tm). They aren't tough, but these players seem to use them fine regardless. Keep em behind stuff, move out and drop the spells seems to be the order of the day. Use that big command area.

Just because they don't work for you in their incarnation does not mean they are not worth 4 points. Just because they don't have the survivability you think they need does not mean they are not worth 4 points. There's a poster above me who wouldn't take them at 3. You just got to accept that certain units are not your playstyle.

I myself see no reason to take Zealots. Even in the MK II version a lot of people love them. Me? Don't fit my playstyle, I wouldn't take em even at 3/5.

[JTY]

I'm no great lover of the Greylords, they don't sit well with my normal playstyle, but I put them into every single Zerkova list without a second thought; they fit with her style and theme, and as she is difficult for me to use as well it's all part of the learning curve.
I know it fits and works, the challenge is in making it work every single time out. That is more to do with me as a player than the rules though.

I'd like them to be better, but at FA3 that'd lead to them being spammed all over the place.
Koldun could (should?) be Magic [8], but that's about as far as I'd go to be perfectly honest.

Zerkova's tiers may buff them, which will make me a happy camper, but beyond that I'm only really fussed in an impotent nerd rage kinda way ;)

[jack frost]

It looks like the OP has made up his mind about them, and any logic we give him will be shot down by his particular brand of insistent semi-aggressive reasoning.

should I have been more wishy washy about it? I feel strongly about what I think...if you want to have a tea and biscuits discussion about your feelings start your own thread about it.


But what you'll find in this thread is lots of people saying they are good enough at 4 points. There are players who love the cover that blizzards provide, love the debuffs of ice cages, and love the magic shotguns(tm). They aren't tough, but these players seem to use them fine regardless. Keep em behind stuff, move out and drop the spells seems to be the order of the day. Use that big command area.

Just because they don't work for you in their incarnation does not mean they are not worth 4 points. Just because they don't have the survivability you think they need does not mean they are not worth 4 points. There's a poster above me who wouldn't take them at 3. You just got to accept that certain units are not your playstyle.

I myself see no reason to take Zealots. Even in the MK II version a lot of people love them. Me? Don't fit my playstyle, I wouldn't take em even at 3/5.

you're still not engaging my point here. they can be useful for sure and I have had success with them but my point isn't that they suck period. it's that they aren't worth 4pts at their current incarnation when compared to other 4pt units (again, not in killing power but in being able to get their job done reliably).

I keep them behind my winterguard and keep putting smoke on them while they (wg) have iron flesh for amazing levels of defense, but the winterguard have low threat ranges so they have to be near the front lines which means the greylords are too and more often than not they die from an errant AOE or spray or whatever and it's never more than an after thought for someone to take them out. I play aggressive with them, and I don't expect them to live, but I would like it if my opponents had to think about it a little.

don't forget that most jack RATs and a lot of other models RATs went up for MK2 while the greylords lost DEF. even if it was only 1pt either way it still adds up to +2 for all ranged yockels to auto pop my greylords without having to think about it. screening is gone too so that's a hefty +4 to hit them. any good player is going to pop my grey lord before dropping 1 more winterguard with tough, and def 17.

so let me ask the people who've had good success with them. do they survive past the turn that they're in range to spray or do you only bring them out of hiding on the win turn? the spray is only 8inches and they're a hell of a threat damage wise so I can't see anyone letting you keep them alive after they get one spray out each. I wouldnt so how are you doing it?


I'm no great lover of the Greylords, they don't sit well with my normal playstyle, but I put them into every single Zerkova list without a second thought; they fit with her style and theme, and as she is difficult for me to use as well it's all part of the learning curve.
I know it fits and works, the challenge is in making it work every single time out. That is more to do with me as a player than the rules though.

I'd like them to be better, but at FA3 that'd lead to them being spammed all over the place.
Koldun could (should?) be Magic [8], but that's about as far as I'd go to be perfectly honest.

Zerkova's tiers may buff them, which will make me a happy camper, but beyond that I'm only really fussed in an impotent nerd rage kinda way ;)

I know that if all the cards are already printed then it's too late, but I was only going for the long shot here. if they were improved they'd have to be dropped to FA2 for sure...

[Redphantasm]

you're still not engaging my point here. they can be useful for sure and I have had success with them but my point isn't that they suck period. it's that they aren't worth 4pts at their current incarnation when compared to other 4pt units (again, not in killing power but in being able to get their job done reliably).



I was not engaging that point because it's moot. Comparing them cross faction to other 4 point units will give you nothing but a skewed picture. Over the the PoM forums we had something similar happen. Went something like this:

Some players: Houseguard Halbardiers are so much better then Temple Flame Guard. They get brutal charge and +1 ARM and are only 4/7 instead of 4/6.
Other players: You're right, it's a good thing we don't have Houseguard of Menoth or we'd never bring Temple Flameguard again!

Theres no point in comparing the points effectiveness of a unit against units that aren't competing with it. Models are pointed based on their value when compared to other models you have the option to take. When I build Retribution armies it's not about wishing my Battle mages were "as effective as other 5 point units" its "how do they stack up against my other 5 point units for slots in this list".

They aren't competing with IFP, Daughters of the Flame, the Withershadow Combine, Highshields or Katherine Laddermoore. They are competing with Mage Hunter Strike Force, The Fane Knight, the Gorgon, Houseguard Riflemen, and combos of solos. That doesn't mean they should be equal to those units in all lists, but it does mean that my decision should be based on what I need, not on a "effectivness per point metric" If my list requires a beat stick, nothing battle mages can do can make me take them over The Fane Knight, but if I need magic attacks and pushes, guess who stays at home?

[thrasymacus]

You can and should compare across faction simply to see if there is a precedent. People often say "They can't be THAT good or else they would be the best unit in the game" when cross faction comparison shows that not to be true. I understand the Halbadier/Flameguard point though.

Purely infaction I still don't think they compare well. No one else does what they do aside from WG having far superior sprays. And yet I still don't think that unique skill set they bring warrants their cost. There are other posters who agree with me and we've also playtested them.

You can say we just haven't mastered the game enough to know how to use them but I'll simply say your opponent hasn't mastered the game enough to realize how casually greylords can be neutralized, giving you a false impression of their worth. In other words that type of argument is just condescending.

People always argue to maintain the status quo. Original pSorsha Feat, 11 point Trenchers, 3 point GMCA, Skarre Bomb etc etc etc. Whether overpowered or underpowered, without the benefit of hindsight people are often convinced that the status quo is 'perfect' and everyone else is delusional. And then after the rules get tweaked and the models get a slight tweak they play so much better and everyone forgets all about it. Giving Greylords wounds won't fundamentally change them in any way, it will merely bring them in line with every 3 model unit in the entire game.

[Garangoor]

Don't know how you use your Greylords, but my always do their job. Smokescreen on high DEF models (either Kayazy or a WG unit with Bob&Weave) or some models with high ARM (IFP or MOW:ST). Solid wall in either way that blocks line of sight on multiple levels (smoke screen and small/medium based LOS block).

Even if there was something on the other side of the table that ignores smoke I still have the security for my Greylords from the first unit in the front row. Additionally only a small number of AOEs will deviate in the right direction and right distance to kill the greylords.

Don't run them as a flaniking unit, because mostly they would be on their own and they are brittle and won't survive much punishment. But as a second row unit in the main force of your army they are great:

- smoke screen and def bonus at will and where I want it, without being in line of fire
- high accuracy spray templates with high enough power to kill even shield-walled units (if you say RAT 7/POW 12 for a spray is not high, then I do think you are playing the wrong faction)
- decent DEF debuff in an army that nearly has no MAT buffs easily available (not all of them need to hit, most of the times it is enough that one of them hits with a Frost Cage)

Would I be happy if they drop to three points? - Yes of course, who wouldn't in their right mind.
Do I think they are a three point unit? - No, more a four then a three, but there is a slim line between these points.

[tedwin183]

That's the problem:

People are still hanging onto what they perceive as "The Greylord's job." It's true, it hasn't changed, but the way you utilize them is different now. They are no longer the aggressive, all-powerful, auto-include they used to be. It takes much more delicate play with them. They are a finely calibrated instrument now, not just the engine that drive the army brick up to the fight.

I'm so weary of people claiming they play Greylords so aggressively. This is most people's problem. They are not meant to be aggressive. They are opportunistic and COMPLETELY a support unit now. They do not single-handedly sway a battle in your favor anymore. Shielding them behind a mass of WG is a FANTASTIC way to get them killed. DO NOT shield them behind the main body of your force. They will die. Putting them behind a wall of MoW ST toward the back of the army is always how I run them. Not saying I am an expert, but I seem to have a lot of success with them, so take this with a grain of salt. Towards the end of the game, when much of my opponent's and my army have been chewed through, there they are sitting behind their moving wall, ready to magic spray something.

To answer the OP's question: Yes, mine almost always survive the whole game. They aren't put into harm's way until about halfway through the battle, where they can totally overwhelm an opponent with sprays.

Let's face it, it is really hard not to clump up in some minor way towards the end of a battle.

[General Nemo]

Look, jack, I'm just saying it's really hard to make a valid point when you're so set in your ways that you make no room for any opinion but your own. You are right. That is it, or at least, that's how you see things.

Back on topic: I think you're paying for an accurate magic shotgun, concealment and a useful debuff. I find it completely fair to have such versatility for 4 points. If your Greylords die, it is because you let them die, or because your opponent devoted the necessary resources (Usually being more than what the Greylords are worth). Either way, they have accomplished something. Some things in your army will die when you don't want them to. I know I like to kill Greylords ASAP so that they are not a threat to me.
Their offensive capability is astounding for three models as well. Optimally, you could get a dozen models under the spray who are in combat, stealth, or benefiting from concealment or cover. The new spray rules are a major boon to Greylords, so discounting that as an advantage is pretty unfair.
The benefits of the other two abilities are obvious. I mean, can you get that kind of versatility in Khadoran units elsewhere for the same or fewer points? The answer is a resounding no. Nothing else in Khador can do what they do, and I would gladly pay 4 points for their power. Comparing them to other factions is meaningless because there are too many factors involved. You pretty much have to call this whole argument of yours a draw, because people like them, and people don't, and I am sure that this thread will not change anyone's mind.

[Tevesh]

Where's this thread that was "curb stomped" in GD? I want to read it as I'd like to see other faction's remarks.

[Sinsation]

What's stopping the greylords from being a good 8-10" behind your WG if you're just using them for the cloud? Advance, cloud. WG then advance, move and position so that the cloud are blocking LoS. 5" range + 6" WG move gives you plenty of space forward, far enough so that AoEs won't fall on them.

[Yertle4]

It looks like the OP has made up his mind about them, and any logic we give him will be shot down by his particular brand of insistent semi-aggressive reasoning.
One man's garbage is another man's treasure.

[General Nemo]

One man's garbage is another man's treasure.

Or people have completely different ideas on how to play their units.

[tedwin183]

^^^ I agree with Nemo completely.

[jack frost]

it's late so I'm not going to post a lot but you guys have made some excellent points and I'd like to respect the discussion we have going here but I'm tired as hell.

on a note of comparing in faction, take a look at this thread here: http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?t=5289

[Kevin B]

Well Ive only been playing warmachine for about 6 weeks and first off I thought they were pony* due to cost, 1 wound and low number count and opted for the widow makers as many here when I looked seemed to think they were much better.

Now I dont know if its due to my style of play or what but I never could seem to get my points back out of the widow makers so the last few games I swapped them for the Graylords and my God they are gold to me. The ability to up the def fo my line early on then to pump out the sprays is fantastic. "My unit has concelment and cover and Im in combat" BAM!!, take them off.

Yes if you place them wrong they will fall fast but I have failed to not get my points back out of them every game. I do use a Kolden Lord and pButcher in the same list so that really does add to their kill count and options for them.

I think they arent a unit you can just throw into any list as they arent self sufficient but built into an overall plan/play style they are great.


*I use the term pony as in the rhyming slang

[Garangoor]

Isn't concealment and cover no longer stacking?

[Pickles]

Isn't concealment and cover no longer stacking?

They never stacked but clouds used to provide "cloud" bonuses not concealment ones & these did stack.

[Kevin B]

Im sorry if I confused you with my post.

It was more a tongue in check statement about how well the spray works now that an enemy unit can have lots of bonuses on them to up their def and then BAM!!!! the spray still hurts them.

[Cambeul]

One reason to take Grey Lords is that they are the only thing in our Faction (that I can think of, maybe Doomreavers) that can hit Incorporeal.

And I am not talking about taking A&H in my lists, not a huge fan on taking Mercs as Crutches for my list.

Also I like to make lists that are designed as all comers as well.

As for making units work (or how you use them), I think that is a valid statement. I would probably take Grey Lords 9/10 times over Widow Makers because my WM never survive more than 2 turns with contact of the enemy. I am just so bad at using them :'(

[vytzka]

One reason to take Grey Lords is that they are the only thing in our Faction (that I can think of, maybe Doomreavers) that can hit Incorporeal.
Karchev can hit incorporeal.

He can hit them with all of his battlegroup :p

But yeah good point. We're not exactly drowning in magical weapons here.

[Marth]

But yeah good point. We're not exactly drowning in magical weapons here.

Those went all to the Retribution when they had that Blow-out sale before the Mk-II prerelease. It's like they all have one, except for those at the end of the book. There it must've been like "'m sorry, we're out of Magic Weapons... but we have these funky lance cannons, how 'bout those?" Fane Knights: "Oh yeah!"

[Garangoor]

We have a whole group of utterly berserk maniacs with magic weapons :) so the Greylords are not the only ones to damage incorporeals.

[Aries37]

For their offensive abilities 4 points is fine. They are a great toolbox unit, especially for khador.

What is not fine is their defensive ability. Look at the broke 13th with their DEF 15, prowl and 5 wounds. They could at least give greylords +1 DEF and wounds.

[Garangoor]

Please don't compare a support unit with a character unit. It makes no sense, as it is comparing oranges with cars.
Otherwise you could compare the Widowmakers with the B13 and still be enraged. It's no point in comparing anything balanced to something as unbalanced as the B13.

[Aries37]

Please don't compare a support unit with a character unit. It makes no sense, as it is comparing oranges with cars.
Otherwise you could compare the Widowmakers with the B13 and still be enraged. It's no point in comparing anything balanced to something as unbalanced as the B13.
It was just a comparison. No one wants the greylords to turn into the b13, but the comparison is to highlight the huge gulf in surviveability.

Three DEF 13 ARM 13 single wound models compared to 3 DEF 15 ARM 11 5 wound models with prowl. Can't we at least get pips?

[vytzka]

It was just a comparison. No one wants the greylords to turn into the b13, but the comparison is to highlight the huge gulf in surviveability.

Three DEF 13 ARM 13 single wound models compared to 3 DEF 15 ARM 11 5 wound models with prowl. Can't we at least get pips?
ARM 11 5 box models still die from POW9 shots on average so it's a bit of a red herring. +2 DEF would be a lot more useful.

[Garangoor]

I can agree, that I wasn't really happy to see them dropping to DEF/ARM 13, but I've adopted to it.
It would be nice of course to see them back on these stats, but I don't think this is gonna happen, 'cause take a look around, nearly all support pieces lost something (maybe some from PoM not as much...), and the Greylords right chime in there.

If we are going to see them back to their old stats, or even a MAT boost to get of war wizardry, I will be most happy. But I wouldn't count on it, as the unit is functionable as it is.

[Aries37]

ARM 11 5 box models still die from POW9 shots on average so it's a bit of a red herring. +2 DEF would be a lot more useful.
Greylords are ARM 13. As a second-line unit 5 wounds gives them a chance against their biggest fear- AOEs.

Has anyone been to the shop to pick up the replacement mk2 cards for these guys?

[vytzka]

Greylords are ARM 13. As a second-line unit 5 wounds gives them a chance against their biggest fear- AOEs.

Has anyone been to the shop to pick up the replacement mk2 cards for these guys?
I was considering your comparison with B13. Obviously ARM 13 and 5 boxes are more reliable as you can actually survive POW10 shots with that more often than not. But as it is they are about equal in toughness for practical purposes, it's the defense that counts more.

Though you're right about blast damage, but with a 3 man unit it's not that hard to avoid it by other means.