Potential new Retribution player: Questions

[Silopolis]

So. Feeling a little underwhelmed with Mk.II Cryx, and not entirely liking where the Trollbloods are going, I am looking over in the direction of the Retribution. Money and painting time are at a premium at the moment, so I wanted to ask a few questions to help me decide A) if I want to start RoS, and B) what models I should get if I do.

So, here we go, and many thanks for any help you can give!

1) I need to keep expenses down, and I enjoy warjacks more than units, in general. I gather that I should be making a Vyros or a Rahn list. Vyros with Invictors/Sentinels, Rahn with Battle Mages, yeah? Is there a way to run jack-heavy at 12- or 25-points without really hindering myself? If I wanted to do 1 unit, jacks, and a solo or two to fill points, is that doable? And can any of the other warcasters run jacks well?

2) Is there an accepted "Battle Box" for RoS? Preferably for Rahn or Vyros, but anything's possible.

2) Are there any models in particular that are a huge pain to assemble? Fiddly, painful, annoying assmbly is my least favorite part of the hobby. What models should I avoid if I want to get around fiddly or painful assembly? Am I gimping myself if I avoid those models?

3) My only concern about painting the jacks are the massive smooth, curved surfaces on the shoulders. Most paint jobs I've seen have looked great, but the shoulders tend to be massive globs of color, and I don't know that my painting skills are up to the task of making that look good. Has anyone done anything creative to break up those massive stretches of surface? My first thoughts were to try and make them look like marble, or somehow get some autumn leaves and/or vines involved, but again, painting skills = not so great. :)

4) Anything else I should know? I love hearing people's opinions of their factions, and, well, I love talking and reading about this stuff. So anything cool you care to share (badass anecdotes, surprising wins, terrible weaknesses, reasons I'm dumb for switching from Cryx/Trolls, etc.) is more than welcome. :)

Thanks a bunch, and happy new year! :)

[Redphantasm]

Welcome to the community. I can vouche that we're a good second place for Trollblood players, being one myself.

Now lets see:

1) Rahn and Vyros are really going to be your best "jack" casters. One due to focus and the other due to battlegroup spells/abilities. At 12 - 25 points, Retribution is very viable as a one unit one solo kind of faction. Look to things like Invictors or Sentinels + UA (both UAs are great). These single units will set you back 10/12 or 9/11 points, a good chunk of the army at that level. Better yet, they can be found cheap. MRSP for both is 45 and 15 for the UA. $60 for each 12 strong unit. Solid. I would go one of these units before I go battle mages. Even Rahn needs a meat shield (just ask gdaybloke)

Add in 2-3 jacks and a solo at this level and you're sitting on good level armies. Our other casters (Ravyn, Garryth, Kaelyssa) do well with jacks, though they really support everything well. Kaelyssa I would consider our third "jack" caster due to her high focus and battlegroup spells/abilities.

2a) There is an accepted battle box. My PG runs Kaelyssa, Manticore, Griffon, and Chimera. http://privateerpressforums.com/album.php?albumid=2&pictureid=29

2b) Mage Hunters are a right pain to assemble, but only for the crossbow cross beams. Small and fiddly. Everything else I have used as gone together very well. I cannot vouche for the Sentinals, but I had my Invictors together in under an hour. Clean models, head in hole, arms to chest, model on base, done!

3) I've seen a few things done. One person used airbrushes and templates to put glyphs on the shoulders:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/53620-.html?m=2

Another thing would be to do what Games Workshop did on the Biel Tan Eldar Scheme, break up the flat areas with thorny vines (super easy to paint):

http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=38721&d=1209981139

Here are some other schemes. The big areas do fine with a bit of shading and solid colors though:

http://pokeminiatures.blogspot.com/2009/09/retribution-of-scyrah-battleboxes-as.html

4) I love this faction. Rarely do you find something so flexible. Think about it, all of your heavies have ranged weapons, all of your casters have awsome abilities. Whole chunks of units have both ranged and melee attacks. You have powerhouse solos, great cav, units of mages, weapon masters, snipers, only things we are lacking are some more jacks and characters. The whole army feels very unified as well. There are disparate parts (Houseguard and Dawnguard) but even they feel like part of the same army, unlike the hodgepodge of Cryx.

[thecsharian]

EDIT: beaten by that darn red phantom :p



1) I need to keep expenses down, and I enjoy warjacks more than units, in general. I gather that I should be making a Vyros or a Rahn list. Vyros with Invictors/Sentinels, Rahn with Battle Mages, yeah? Is there a way to run jack-heavy at 12- or 25-points without really hindering myself? If I wanted to do 1 unit, jacks, and a solo or two to fill points, is that doable? And can any of the other warcasters run jacks well?In which way do you want to keep expenses down? long term or short term?
You can quickly (and quite cheaply) build a tier army, and they have such limited options that if you can convince yourself to stick to them you'll very quickly run out of things to buy.

As for jack heavy... Vyros is, IMHO, better than Rahn. But we have no real pure jack casters.
I think all our casters can play reasonably well jack heavy, the jacks are fast, versatile, we have plenty of jack marshalls, and Arcanists are 1pt jack runners.

In general I think 1 unit, filler solos and plenty of jacks may be a bit hard. But 1 (or 2) units, (maybe) a support unit, filler solos and multiple jacks is well doable.
Not running a unit at lower points levels does hurt a little though.


2) Is there an accepted "Battle Box" for RoS? Preferably for Rahn or Vyros, but anything's possible.Yes. Though Kael is "the Bbox" caster.
IIRC the RoS Bbox is "officially" - Kaelyssa, Manticore, Chimera, Griffon.

Though people have long debated that Vyros makes for a suitable Bbox caster. There were quite a few threads about such things on the old forums - on this forum there is this (http://www.privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?t=2466)?

That said Rahn and Vyros are both quite capable of running 15pt Mangled Metal lists. Rahn isn't a Bbox caster though.


2) Are there any models in particular that are a huge pain to assemble? Fiddly, painful, annoying assmbly is my least favorite part of the hobby. What models should I avoid if I want to get around fiddly or painful assembly? Am I gimping myself if I avoid those models?From the models out so far, Mage Hunter Strike forces are the ultimate evil in assembly - very fiddly crossbows.
As to whether excluding them is gimping yourself, depends on how strongly you consider the fact that the Retribution are mage hunters ;)

But seriously, you can do plenty well without them, but they are a good unit.
-It's really all playstyle dependant.

Personally I have a dislike of the jack models. They're shoulder plates have annoying seams, etc. And they are awkward models that (atleast in the case of the heavys) have stumbled into looking good.


3) My only concern about painting the jacks are the massive smooth, curved surfaces on the shoulders. Most paint jobs I've seen have looked great, but the shoulders tend to be massive globs of color, and I don't know that my painting skills are up to the task of making that look good. Has anyone done anything creative to break up those massive stretches of surface? My first thoughts were to try and make them look like marble, or somehow get some autumn leaves and/or vines involved, but again, painting skills = not so great. :)Just use spray paint or an airbrush, you can do them in a flash, and do them well.
Otherwise do some large chevrons or something over the large pieces of armour.

Remember, they're jacks... if you make a mistake with the paint, then add some metal paint and call it battle damage.


4) Anything else I should know? I love hearing people's opinions of their factions, and, well, I love talking and reading about this stuff. So anything cool you care to share (badass anecdotes, surprising wins, terrible weaknesses, reasons I'm dumb for switching from Cryx/Trolls, etc.) is more than welcome. :) The stickied threads make some half decent reading, and may help inspire you.

Personally I think this faction is a trap... the shiny mage hunter models first shown are the candy, now we just have to watch out for the stranger.

[Silopolis]

Thanks to you both for the great answers. I'm definitely into learning as much as I can about the faction (I have the book), so... more! :)


In which way do you want to keep expenses down? long term or short term?
You can quickly (and quite cheaply) build a tier army, and they have such limited options that if you can convince yourself to stick to them you'll very quickly run out of things to buy.

Yeah, they seem good for that. I must admit, the Rahn one sounds really cool (the Battle Mages sound like a lot of fun, and free Arcanists sound great), but it excludes that Dawnguard units that people seem to like so much. Are the Houseguard units a suitable replacement?


As for jack heavy... Vyros is, IMHO, better than Rahn. But we have no real pure jack casters.
I think all our casters can play reasonably well jack heavy, the jacks are fast, versatile, we have plenty of jack marshalls, and Arcanists are 1pt jack runners.

Jack Marshalls all over the place, from my read, and that's a good thing! Coming from Cryx, I never got to play with those, and the few Mercs I have are Magnus Agenda, and the Marshals that work with him aren't the ones with the fun Drives (if I recall).


Yes. Though Kael is "the Bbox" caster.
IIRC the RoS Bbox is "officially" - Kaelyssa, Manticore, Chimera, Griffon.

Though people have long debated that Vyros makes for a suitable Bbox caster. There were quite a few threads about such things on the old forums - on this forum there is this (http://www.privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?t=2466)?

That said Rahn and Vyros are both quite capable of running 15pt Mangled Metal lists. Rahn isn't a Bbox caster though.

There is one question I had: Why is Kaelyssa the accepted Battle Box caster, when Vyros/Rahn are better jack casters? I guess I can understand it based on Vyros' feat, but then again, Madrak's feat is more or less useless in Battle Box games, too....

What makes Rahn unsuitable for Box games?


Personally I think this faction is a trap... the shiny mage hunter models first shown are the candy, now we just have to watch out for the stranger.

Interesting metaphor. Care to elaborate?

Redphantasm: The thorns idea is pretty neat. I wanted to do something autumny with the elves, and I was thinking maybe kinda like a creamy/bony white with Sanguine Base contrasts (one shoulder this color, the other white, etc.), and then maybe a brownish-green or teal thorn on one shoulder. Not sure what color the "glowy" bits would be under that scheme, though.

[thecsharian]

Yeah, they seem good for that. I must admit, the Rahn one sounds really cool (the Battle Mages sound like a lot of fun, and free Arcanists sound great), but it excludes that Dawnguard units that people seem to like so much. Are the Houseguard units a suitable replacement?Maybe not a replacement, but they are all together good units. The houseguard are perhaps our more versatile units, within their 'speciality'.


There is one question I had: Why is Kaelyssa the accepted Battle Box caster, when Vyros/Rahn are better jack casters? I guess I can understand it based on Vyros' feat, but then again, Madrak's feat is more or less useless in Battle Box games, too....

What makes Rahn unsuitable for Box games?Kael, because PP said so. She also pairs reasonably well with the other WM Bbox caster I guess.

Rahn can play Bbox games fine, he's just not a Bbox caster.
Compared to the other WM Bbox casters he has more focus, more 'battlegroup' spells, and is less about purely setting up an assassination (not that he isn't good at that) and more about ruining your opponents day.
With his spell list I don't think it'd be fair, 9 attacks with beat back and a crit slam possibilty is bad enough.


Interesting metaphor. Care to elaborate?In brief-
Everything we've got is shiny, everything we've got has cool little special abilities.
RoS, as far as we were aware (until the book), was about Mage Hunters... now it's a faction with comparatively few mage hunters (One unit, One solo, several characters).
To keep balance, things are only going to get worse for us.

[Silopolis]

Maybe not a replacement, but they are all together good units. The houseguard are perhaps our more versatile units, within their 'speciality'.

It seemed to me like the Dawnguard are more versatile, though slower. They can get higher ARM, do more damage, etc. Especially the Invictors. Though the lower cost of the Houseguard folks is tempting... and Sentinels with UA start to look a lot like Bane Knights without Ghostly. :)


Kael, because PP said so. She also pairs reasonably well with the other WM Bbox caster I guess.Ah, if that's the case, then maybe I should just not look for a Battle Box force, and just look for 15 points. Kaelyssa seems interesting, but I think her model looks silly, and I'd probably prefer any of the other Ret casters before her.


Rahn can play Bbox games fine, he's just not a Bbox caster.
Compared to the other WM Bbox casters he has more focus, more 'battlegroup' spells, and is less about purely setting up an assassination (not that he isn't good at that) and more about ruining your opponents day.
With his spell list I don't think it'd be fair, 9 attacks with beat back and a crit slam possibilty is bad enough.So it's about balancing with the other boxes, not necessarily who plays best with just jacks. Interesting. After playing Trollbloods for so long, I forgot there was such a thing as Battle Box balance. ;)


In brief-
Everything we've got is shiny, everything we've got has cool little special abilities.
RoS, as far as we were aware (until the book), was about Mage Hunters... now it's a faction with comparatively few mage hunters (One unit, One solo, several characters).
To keep balance, things are only going to get worse for us.

Ah, so it's kinda a feeling of incoming nerfage? Or that we won't get spectacular new models because our current ones are so good?

[Redphantasm]

In brief-
Everything we've got is shiny, everything we've got has cool little special abilities.
RoS, as far as we were aware (until the book), was about Mage Hunters... now it's a faction with comparatively few mage hunters (One unit, One solo, several characters).
To keep balance, things are only going to get worse for us.

I think better. War gives data to house Shyeel. Data gives us new Myrmidons. Success abroad expands Ios. Success abroad means more people wanting to get in on the action, expect more house guard. I expect lots of hotness. I do not expect a whole lot of mage hunters.

Think about it, before the troops showed up the Retribution was essentially a guerilla organization, strike teams, assasins, hunters, mages, priests, the rare warcaster and jacks if they could get em. As an organization it was all about strike teams until individual members were good enough to go off on their own. They've expanded now, and the guerillas back up the army, rather then being the army.

[gdaybloke]

Even Rahn needs a meat shield (just ask gdaybloke)
Hell yes. Silopolis, I don't know if you've been cruising the Blogosphere, but I run Lost Hemisphere - link's in the sig - and I've been posting results of testing and theorymachine et al as I try to get a 50pt Rahn list built, tweaked and painted in time for Templecon.

The first several games I played I was using the Mage Hunters as the second unit after the Battle Mages, and I found again and again that I just didn't have a strong centre to shield Rahn from incoming assaults. The Battle Mages can't handle direct fire or incoming melee beasts, and the Mage Hunters are built for surgical strikes rather than providing a bulwark.

Both of the Dawnguard units and the Halberdiers can fulfil the meatsheild role, each with their pros and cons.

[Silopolis]

It seems like the Halberdiers would be a good choice here, if I wanted to make a tiered Rahn list. They move forward and Shield Wall, and the Battle Mages blast through them thanks to Ranked Attack. And they keep with the tier, so I could potentially get my free Arcanist. ;)

Though I must admit, I like the Invictors a lot on paper, especially if they're Marshalling a Griffon. Well-armored troops who can shoot pretty well sound really good to me. Especially since I've started to get a little bit of a crush on Ravyn, and would need some shooting troops for her. :)

[gdaybloke]

Neither unit is a bad choice, Silopolis. The Halberdiers have the advantage of maintaining the tier, ranged attack, and being cheap as chips. The Invictors can bring a jack along, and pack more bite, but you do pay the points for it.

Both are well costed for what they do, so I doubt you'd have much reason to complain either way.

[Silopolis]

I'm reading through your blog, gday. Very interesting, and your paint scheme is inspirational considering I'm thinking of trying for an autumn theme on my models. My main problem is that the colors I wanted to use (brown, dark green, orange, deep red) don't tend to look great on massive solid expanses like the heavy myrmidons' shoulders. But yours look great and make me think it's possible.

I think, in terms of Tiers, Rahn's interests me the most, but I don't see a ton of killing power in that tier. Vyros' tiers have the Dawnguard units, which I really like, but Vyros isn't terribly interesting on his own. Ravyn looks really interesting (like a personal combat shredding machine!) but Kaelyssa don't look great, either.

I love the idea of the Tiers limiting the stuff I feel I "have" to buy, though. And Rahn with a couple myrmidons, a couple of Arcanists, and a unit of mages or halberdiers sounds like it could be fun.

[gdaybloke]

Thanks for the compliment :)

In Rahn's tier, the killification pretty much comes from slamming stuff around and then dropping a warjack on it. The Houseguard models can pack some bite, but they pale in comparison to the Dawnguard and Mage Hunters. You basically trade a lot of damage options for massive amounts of board control, and are then left to rely on the warjacks to deal any real damage.

That's part of the reason why I'm leaning on the Sentinels as my meatshield - they're smashy good.

If you want to stick strictly to the tier, I suggest the Phoenix and Hydra. Drop three focus on the Hydra on turn one, and then fire off unboosted shots until you get a good line. The Phoenix is just freakin' awesome at clearing infantry with Combust, and setting things on fire with the sword and halo cannon is just gravy.

The Phoenix wins games for me, and the Hydra's a pretty sweet backup since it has a good cannon and an awesome chain attack.

[Silopolis]

I must admit, I'm having a hard time guaging the toughness of the Retribution heavies. I understand DEF 12/ARM 18, but they all have 4-6 fewer boxes than the Slayer, with the force-barrier thingies to compensate. So they seem significantly harder to kill than slayers. And they can regenerate their forcefields until the Generator is gone... which seems like it'll happen very quickly, since they tend to be 2 points deep on columns 3 and 4.

How much of your effort is spent protecting myrmidons until they can get into butt-kicking position? I'll admit, my inner Magnus player eyes Vyros and his Mobility and Inviolable Resolve to get super-fast, ARM 20 heavies.

Does the forcefield make the myrmidon that much harder to kill? Or are they still squishy compared to Menoth/Cygnar heavies?

[malfred]

They're versatile warjacks with both ranged and melee hitting power.

SPD 6 heavies are not to be overlooked.

[Silopolis]

Oh, I'm sold on the heavies (I know the value of SPD 6 from Cryx), I'm just trying to get an idea of where they stand on the resilience front. If there's a spectrum between Cryx on one side and Khador/Rhul on the other, where do the Myrmidons stand?

That will affect the way I build my lists. If I need to protect my heavies like I do with Cryx, then I'll want to work something in to protect them. If they can withstand general attacks while closing, then I can worry less about that. :)

[malfred]

I think it will depend on how you intend to use your heavies.

Hydra resilience will come from enemies not wanting to feed it focus with
lots of small arms fire.

Phoenix resilience will come from double healing its field. However, it's
a high priority target due to its arc node and Reach.

If an enemy can commit with a big hit to eliminate that field, then consider
your 'jack crippled unless you have an arcanist handy to repair things, and
even then it might be too little too late.

So maybe on durability I'll vote: somewhere between Cygnar and Khador.