Kromac "All Comers" List

[Bakemono]

What follows are two variations of a 50pt "All Comers" List I've based around Kromac. Both have proven to be exteremely effective and adaptabe:

Version-1:

Kromac (+4 Warbeast Points)
Woldwarden *9
Feral Warpwolf x2 *18
Pureblood Warpwolf *9
Gorax *4
Shifting Stones x2 *4
Blackclad Wayfarer *2
Lord of the Feast *3
Totem Hunter *3
War Wolf *1
Swamp Gobbers *1

*Granted the War Wolf doesn't really add anything but it was a left over point. I figured I might as well toss it in. This version is maximum muscle. One set of Shifting Stones stays near the Woldwarden (who can't be repaired any other way) and the other stays near (at first) the LOTF to get him to opponents infantry. The Stones in general are useful for getting the Blackclad to teleport alll over the board.

Kromac stays in tight with all the Heavy Warbeasts with the Solos setup far over to move forward as a flanking threat that cannot be ignored. The Solos are a primary anti-infantry option, with Kromac/Woldwarden Rift blasts being the fallback. The Gobbers are setup to cover whichever group is going to need the extra cover (based largely on opponent).

Version-2

*The only change is losing one Feral Warpwolf and putting in the Druids of Orboros w/Overseer Attachment. This version provides overwhelming anti-magical options as now not only is Kromac creating a 14" anti-magic field, people cannot even target you from outside the field. Moreover, the Druids bring "going fishing" option in for when you have closed with the oppoent. If the Blackclad is still alive by that time, they even have some use as infantry assault. Of the two versions, this one has been the most adaptable, but my record is the same either way.

Have any of you used this list or close variations? Are you seeing any problems that I (and thus far my opponents) have missed, i.e. weaknesses to be exploited?

[havukwrecka]

The only glaring weakness I see will be infantry spam but you have a good enough of amount of ways to deal with infantry. Trample has been great for me in MK2.

[Blaque]

I would of thought to put in a unit of Ravagers+UA instead a second Feral, the War WOlf and the Gobbers. Or if you are not as willing to point-shave, I would find a way to get in Bloodweavers at least, since they have been showing to be pretty good infantry-clearing in my games as well. Replace a Warpwolf with them and maybe take the War Wolf out ot fit Morraig in with the rest (he's showing in my tests to be good on his own actually, just that he becomes great with WoO).

Just some thoughts on that all.

And stuff.

[blueskin]

Any thoughts about this? Is this something you could take to a SR2010 tournament?

Kromac
Feral Warpwolf
Woldwarden
Gnarlhorn Satyr
Druids + ua
Shifting Stones
Blackclad Wayfarer
(35pts.)

edit: I'm thinking about putting a Pureblood in the list instead of the druids, but I like the versatility of the druids.

[blueskin]

I'm trying hard to put together an All comer Kromac list at 35 pts... anybody got some advice?

[Bakemono]

At 35pts I run with one of the following:

Kromac
Pureblood
Feral
Woldwarden
Shifting Stones
LOTF
Gorax
Totem Hunter

or

Kromac
Pureblood
Feral
Woldwardne
Lord of the Feast
Shifting Stones
Druids

[blueskin]

I'd have to go with the second list since i don't have Totem Hunter or Gorax. Is the Druids good enough without the Overseer? I'm willing to try Cylena. She's got a nasty CRA and does 4 dice on the charge... I'm up against a beast heavy list so the druids might not deal that much damage. Force Bolts are nice but half of them will miss DEF 14 beasts. I'm used to playing them against warjacks... :)

[Bakemono]

They are fine without the Overseer. The Druids work well with anyone but are particularly good with Kromac due to Warpath. You have lots of surprising assassinations. Druids can fish targets forward, Warpath lets you get extra movement out of your Warbeasts. The net gain is some very impressive assassination ranges and high destruction utility. There is also the ability to protect with countermagic which cannot be downplayed.

[blueskin]

Hmm...very tempting arguments there! :) I'm just worried about hitting stuff like Ferals (DEF 14) with Magical ability 7. That's like 50/50...

[Bakemono]

You have six guys to hit and drag them. That means you will hit them such beasties an average of three times and drag them 4-6 inches. :)

[blueskin]

...which means...a charge lane! :)

[WickedGood]

Why take a totem hunter instead of a white mane?

Also I noticed no argus for the pathfinder animus. I find I use that in every game I play. Could be the terrain we use but I am always using it.

[Teleologica]

Totem Hunter and White Mane are both nice 3-pt solos. I'd say the choice is mostly personal preference. TH isn't a faction model, so doesn't benefit from some spells/effects, but realistically you're going to be using magic buffs on the Feral not the White Mane anyway so that makes no difference :)

Other than that, TH is better at taking out multi-wound solos and multi-wound stuff in general, it's also faster, better DEF ARM and P&S and has stealth; the WM just blenderises low DEF/ARM light infantry. Really depends what you want in the list. TBH I prefer the LotF for what the WM does, so would be tempted to take the TH just to have a solo that does something a bit different.

As far as the Argus goes, I've tried the last few games without one. I've missed Pathfinder on the Feral a couple of times, and giving 360 to the LotF is bent. However, he doesn't bring much else to the table, so I'm not sure if he's worth it for 4 points.

[hrym]

Also I noticed no argus for the pathfinder animus. I find I use that in every game I play. Could be the terrain we use but I am always using it.

In the Pureblood's CMD range the Feral can also warp Ghostly (which is better than Pathfinder)

Besides the unit-options instead of the second FWW wouldn't a Gnarlhorn also be nice? (at 50 Points)

[blueskin]

How about Druids against the Kayas? I have a feeling they won't do much good?

[Teleologica]

@ Blueskin - I haven't played with the Druids yet (don't own 'em ... yet :)) but I could see them being handy vs Kayas, pKaya at least. Fishing offsets yo-yo to some extent, and adding the FURY burden of shaking knockdown from the bolts offsets Soothing Song, plus Vortex offsets PackHunters. Essentially they do what they're there to do against everyone, and negate pKaya's few remaining strengths into the bargain (spot the residual pain from this ex-Kaya player :()

@ WickedGood - just had another thought. If you want Pathfinder, try Saxon Orrick. He grants Pathfinder in a 9" CMD bubble, and is 2 PC cheaper than the Argus. Unless you actually need the beast as a fury battery / transfer target (I usually prefer a Gorax in that role anyway) Saxon might be the better option.

@ Hrym - completely agree. BUT if pathfinder is enough it's nice to have that as well as Warp Str rather than having to Warp the Feral for Ghostly. Had a game a few days ago where the Feral was just out of range on a Carnivean in some woods (with spiny doo-dads animus up). I didn't have an Argus so had to Primal him and then Warp Ghostly to make sure I'd make the charge and do enough damage when I got there. He killed the Carni but because of the Frenzy zoomed off in the wrong direction next turn and got killed by a Seraph/Angelius combo. If I'd had pathfinder I could have warped Str and wouldn't have Frenzied and lost him a turn later. I'm just saying it's useful to have some way of putting Pathfinder on the big boys if possible, though I use the F/PB WW pairing for exactly the reason you suggest as well.

[Bakemono]

Why take a totem hunter instead of a white mane?

Also I noticed no argus for the pathfinder animus. I find I use that in every game I play. Could be the terrain we use but I am always using it.


Stealth for free on the Totem Hunter. It takes too long for the White Mane to get into position, assuming he isn't just shot.

[blueskin]

Bakemono:

Regarding that second 35 pt list... is it solid against Protectorate? I'm afraid the Overseer is a bit too useful to be left out. Protection from fire is probably going to come in handy, I assume. The problem is, there is not a single point I'd want to be without. What do you say?

[SlimShady]

Forcebolt is winning me too many games to not use the druids in every list. Add in Warpath which was mentioned and you are golden.

I'm with Blaque, I also prefer using the Ravagers + UA + (sometimes) White Mane in my Kromac lists. I like the armor buff on them unless I'm fishing Megalith out there with 21 arm to sink some attacks.

[blueskin]

A lot of people in my meta agrees on Cryx being the OP faction of WM. So far I've only met them a couple of times, not bothered about reading their cards and thus been beaten. (None of those times have I played Kromac though.)

Is Cryx that good? What are the best models alongside Kromac against them (let's say in a 35-50 pts list)? Is the Wyrd worth taking? Druids or other units? How about a construct theme army? (No soul tokens for you!)

Please, share your thoughts!

[Bakemono]

A lot of people in my meta agrees on Cryx being the OP faction of WM. So far I've only met them a couple of times, not bothered about reading their cards and thus been beaten. (None of those times have I played Kromac though.)

Is Cryx that good? What are the best models alongside Kromac against them (let's say in a 35-50 pts list)? Is the Wyrd worth taking? Druids or other units? How about a construct theme army? (No soul tokens for you!)

Please, share your thoughts!

No, Cryx isn't that good. They are well represented in my META and we are quite competitive with them. The Druids are fine. You don't need the Wyrd. Kromac already has the best anti-magic suppression in the game and the Druids would already add to that. Pretty much you would still take a Feral, Pureblood, Woldwarden, Druids, Gorax, LOTF, Shifting Stones... and so on.

[Sebrent]

Going back to the advice given previously of replacing the 2nd Feral with a Gnarlhorn:

#1: This will give you an even greater threat range as you'll have Warpath, Druid Fishing, and Gnarlhorn animus for some incredible range on your Feral
#2: This same range is even farther with a Gnarlhorn who slams as he can follow-up ... that's 3"-8" of additional movement.
#3: The gnarlhorn is 1 point cheaper than the Feral, thus, you could then drop the War Wolf (now 2 free points) and get a blackclad which should perform better in your initial list than the war wolf (I find them most useful with Reeves).

Edit: I just noticed you have the LotF marked as being only 3 points ... he is 4 points now since the March.pdf

[blueskin]

Bakemono:
No, Cryx isn't that good. They are well represented in my META and we are quite competitive with them.

Well, we have some WM players here claiming all the Hordes factions are completely broken and unbalanced, so... ;)
My next three games in my local league are against Cryx and I'm looking forward to getting some practice. I know they happen to be really good players and that's probably "worse" than the fact that they play Cryx. I hope. ;)

[Bakemono]

Bakemono:

Well, we have some WM players here claiming all the Hordes factions are completely broken and unbalanced, so... ;)
My next three games in my local league are against Cryx and I'm looking forward to getting some practice. I know they happen to be really good players and that's probably "worse" than the fact that they play Cryx. I hope. ;)


I hear that all the time. It makes me wonder. I play Circle (Hordes obviously) and most of my META is Warmachine. This means most games I play are against Warmachine. I am extremely competitive in my META and regularly place or win. If Warmachine was as broken as described, I doubt that would be the case. Warmachine has more powerful Feats than we do (stupidly powerful Feats) but in a way that is a weakness. Almost all Warmachine players are playing for the Feat Turn. If they can't win it on that turn, you pretty much stomp them. Since our Feats are mediocre at best, we are playing for the whole game. Pretty much I'm playing to mitigate their Feat from turn one. Beat the Feat, beat the WM player.

[blueskin]

Bakemono: [QUOTE][/QAlmost all Warmachine players are playing for the Feat Turn. If they can't win it on that turn, you pretty much stomp them. Since our Feats are mediocre at best, we are playing for the whole game. Pretty much I'm playing to mitigate their Feat from turn one. Beat the Feat, beat the WM player.UOTE]

Yeah, I noticed that this weekend when I played Baldur against eHaley. His feat turn did me nothing. I healed my beasts, kept my models safe and used Baldurs feat to prevent charges. After his feat he had nothing that could mess upp my gameplan and I continued to pick him apart. Apart from an almost successful assassination with Thorn there were nothing that worried me apart from his feat. (After the game I realised that he must have teleported Thorn twice, which is prohibited.) :D

[Murch]

e-Haley has a spelled called Telekinesis, which can move a model 2", once a turn. Thorn however after being used to arc a spell can again move 3".

[blueskin]

Mulch:

Yes, I know. He teleported one time to get past my Gnarlhorn and Woldwarden, then he teleported again, moved the 3" and moved 7" to get past some druids. I didn't notice at the moment but Baldur survived so I don't really care. When he had two more focus on Thorn and Baldur had his 2 Fury left, I knew I was safe. :D

[Omnipotent]

Kromac with no Tharn? Where's the fluff?

[Bakemono]

Kromac with no Tharn? Where's the fluff?

In the wastebasket where it belongs. If Privateer wanted us to make fluff lists, the models would work better that way. :) Kromac is a Warbeast Warlock. Running him with lots of Tharn might seem like it make sense, but ultimately it doesn't.

[Murch]

Mulch:

Yes, I know. He teleported one time to get past my Gnarlhorn and Woldwarden, then he teleported again, moved the 3" and moved 7" to get past some druids. I didn't notice at the moment but Baldur survived so I don't really care. When he had two more focus on Thorn and Baldur had his 2 Fury left, I knew I was safe. :D


That's Murch...not Mulch? Do you have grasslands and forests on the brain?:D

So if he used Telekinesis (not Teleport), he could move 2", then 3" (from arcing on himself). On his turn he can move his speed. If he moved 2+2+3+7, yes the "rat Bast**d" is lucky Baldur survived! Keep in mind she also has another spell called Temporal Acceleration, which gives yet another 2" and can be cast along with TK. One more note if a jack is bonded to her it gains another 2 ".

[blueskin]

Murch:

Sorry about that! There must be a layer of moss on top of my brain.

I'm pretty sure he moved 2+2+3+7 because he moved way more than 12". There were a few people watching the game and I got a wee bit distracted, I guess.


Bakemono:

I find it very hard making a 35 pt Kromac list. I want three heavy beasts (Warden, Feral and Pureblood) and the Druids. Thats 34 pts - 36 if i take the Overseer. Shifting Stones and some Gobbers? There's so much I'd want to bring against Cryx. :D

One of my concerns is this: Do I need stones or can I rely on the druids for healing the Wold? I usually don't lose the druids...

I guess it would be kind of cool to make a Tharn army, but I like to win if possible. If I can't win I want the reason to be my own mistakes/bad die rolls rather than playing a crap list. ;)

[Mix Master Gilgamesh]

The druids can't heal the Woldwarden. He is a construct and can't normally be healed except by:

Shifting Stones (Healing Field)
Baldur (Elemental Mastery)
Megalith (Bountiful Restoration)

Hope that helps :D

[blueskin]

Mix Master:
Yeah, I keep forgetting that! Wishful thinking I guess... ;)

[Mix Master Gilgamesh]

No problems :D I always wish we had more ways to heal them too :P

[blueskin]

How essential is the Woldwyrd against Cryx?

[Zyrael]

How essential is the Woldwyrd against Cryx?

Not very if you are using Kromac. Beastial is going to be far more useful. Heck I'd rank the druids over the wyrd vs Cryx.

[blueskin]

Zyrael: Kromac and the Druids prevents magic in a very effective way but Cryx has some pretty nasty upkeep spells and it's only fair we can punish them for it. But yeah, I think you're right. Bestial is good enough and the Druids does their job very well. :)

[Zyrael]

The idea behind saying Kromac is enough is that Cryx casters very seldom get in close to use their spells personally, they typically make use of their ample arc nodes. Beastial stops channeling and can therefor shut down half of a Cryx players game plan.

[blueskin]

Zyrael:

Yeah, but the other half of the game plan, which includes a very powerful feat, is harder to deal with. I haven't played many games against Cryx, but I must honestly say I'm quite discouraged by reading their feats and abilities. It took me some time to figure out Protectorate of Menoth, but Cryx seem almost impossible.

[Zyrael]

gimme some specific examples and maybe I can help ya. I tend to have very little problem with cryx.

[blueskin]

Zyrael: Ok, that's very kind of you.

I'd very much appreciate some advice regarding the Gaspys, Dennys and Skarres. Those seem to me to be among the scariest models in the game.

[blueskin]

...anyone? :)

[Zyrael]

Zyrael: Ok, that's very kind of you.

I'd very much appreciate some advice regarding the Gaspys, Dennys and Skarres. Those seem to me to be among the scariest models in the game.

Well you aren't mistaken. They are all incredibly powerful Warcasters.

I don't know if I have it in me to give a full breakdown of each right now. But lets hit some bullet points.

General anti cryx thoughts.
-Take out the arc nodes post haste, it lowers their offensive power then forces the typically fragile warcasters to stick their necks out.
-Spells like Chain Lightning, Rift, Eruption of Life, and Earth Spikes tend to wreck their paper infantry. Cryx swarms are of little concern for Circle.
-They will almost always have the higher model count... dramatically. Don't let it overwhelm you. Focus on taking out the biggest chunk you can without reprisal each turn. Make all your safe moves first. Attrition fights mean you have to plan for a fight to last at least 3 rounds. (after engagement).

pGaspy: his feat is really going to decimate soft circle support units like Druids and Bloodtrackers, not to mention his powerful AoEs. A traditional Circle beast heavy build tends to play against his strengths and into yours. His jacks won't stand up to your beasts. As far as his infantry is concerned, take out weapon masters and bile thralls first. In general circle ant-light infantry tech is solid and diverse.

eGaspy: Honestly less experienced. Druids are going to be a boon with their counter magic. Again your beasts beat his jacks.

pSkarre: Stay away from the bomb and try to get the drop on the models that will make the best use of her feat. Never forget that pSKarre herself is a devastatingly powerful melee combatant, she will kill any beast or caster you bring by herself so don't give her the chance. Beating pSkarre tends to be easier if you never give her a great turn to pop her feat. Commit just enough forces each round so she won't know whether to pop then or wait. Every turn she waits you are gaining ground. It's very much psychological warfare.

eSkarre: The easiest way around that feat is through board control and terrain generation methods. Use terrain either created or existing to keep her untargetable models at bay. If you are engaged by an unhittable death jack (for instance) it is often a better idea to take a free strike walking away then putting either disposable models or terrain between you and it. She's tricksy and multi-faceted and one of the top tier casters of MK II warmachine. You are going to have to do the leg work, get in a lot of games against her before tournaments and just swallow each loss with a bit more learning.

Dennegra... coming soon.

[blueskin]

This is great, thanks a lot. I'm actually starting to see that there are ways to deal with Cryx, even if it's not very easy...

[blueskin]

Played a 35 pts game against pSkarre and lost on scenario. I felt like I had the tools to break him down but I lost count on the turns and thought there was a whole turn left before counting scenario points. It was actually quite interesting playing against Cryx. Must be more careful though.

[bitterfun]

In the wastebasket where it belongs. If Privateer wanted us to make fluff lists, the models would work better that way. :) Kromac is a Warbeast Warlock. Running him with lots of Tharn might seem like it make sense, but ultimately it doesn't.


Correct me if I'm fluff wrong, but isn't Morghana using most of the Tharn anyhow? If so, it wouldn't be too displeasing to make a Morghana/Tharn Ravager fluff list. ;)