Coven MKII - Questions and feedback

[rvrchamp]

Hello, hello, hello!

I finally got a game in tonight with Coven against some Scorne. The game ended up being fairly one-sided, but only because I was able to lock him down pretty quickly. All in all we both had fun, and felt there were choices to be made on both sides throughout the game despite my lockdown...

My list:
Coven
d-Jack
Slayer
Nightwretch x2
Scarloc
Mechanithralls x10
Necrosurgeon
Withershadow Combine

Him:
pMorghul
Gladiator
Rhinodon
Savage
Bloodrunners x6
Bloodrunner solo
Paingivers (max unit)
Agonizer
Ferox x3

First turn on both sides was maneuvering.

Second Turn I was able to trample through the bloodrunners killing 3, charge the ferox with the slayer and kill 2, and used the feat to slow down his 'beasts.

Turn three I Stygian Abysed the Gladiator, and charged it with the mechanithralls killing it. The DJ cast Styg Abyss and shadow bound the savage. My opponent moved the rhinodon into the spot where the gladiator died and threshered killing most of my McThralls. The slayer failed to kill the ferox.

Fourth turn I did the same to the Rhinodon using the McThralls brough back by the Surgeon, and beat on the savage with the DJ. He feat and killed the Surgeon, and a few other meaningless things. The slayer finally killed the last ferox.

Turn five I killed the savage with the DJ, moved my arc nodes into range, and started arcing Stygian Abyss at morghul. By the third one he was toast.

Game highlights:
Killing the gladiator with half a unit of McThralls, then killing the Rhinodon with three McThralls (he was shadow bound and ghostly embraced).

Throughts:
While stygian abyss has definitely been toned down (no more auto boosts) shadowbind is REALLY strong. I was essentially able to lock down, and debuff his beasts one by one allowing the McThralls to beat them up. Using the Withershadow was a huge help for puppet master and the free upkeep. I also feel the scarloc was key in allowing me to move infernal machine from the slayer to the DJ (who cast it on himself atleast twice). Lastly the Surgeon was absolutely awesome, which leads me to...

Questions:

How many corpse tokens can the Necrosurgeon have? (I know he can only use 3 a turn, but can he have more than three on him at any single time?)
how exactly does perfect triangulation work with the MKII LOS rules? Before it was either in B2B with the egg and stealth, OR spaced out for perfect triangulation. Is it possible to angle the witched to face each other while being in B2B with eggy and still get the perfect triangulation?

[GaspysInhaler]

Throughts:
While stygian abyss has definitely been toned down (no more auto boosts) shadowbind is REALLY strong. I was essentially able to lock down, and debuff his beasts one by one allowing the McThralls to beat them up. Using the Withershadow was a huge help for puppet master and the free upkeep. I also feel the scarloc was key in allowing me to move infernal machine from the slayer to the DJ (who cast it on himself atleast twice). Lastly the Surgeon was absolutely awesome, which leads me to...

Shadowbind is where stygian really shines. I like to use puppet master to re-roll the "to hit" roll on jacks, hoping for doubles (which statistically, I believe is around 40%). I don't really care about damaging them, as locking them down is a lot more important.




Questions:

How many corpse tokens can the Necrosurgeon have? (I know he can only use 3 a turn, but can he have more than three on him at any single time?)
how exactly does perfect triangulation work with the MKII LOS rules? Before it was either in B2B with the egg and stealth, OR spaced out for perfect triangulation. Is it possible to angle the witched to face each other while being in B2B with eggy and still get the perfect triangulation?



1. I believe the surgeon can have as many as have died that turn. Granted, you cannot add to a unit that is completely destroyed, but it's nice to be able to use more the following turn.

2. Perfect conjunction and Stealth are possible in MK2 now. I don't have a link to the ruling, but I'm 100% positive they can both be achieved now. It's even listed in the "Subtle Improvements" (http://www.privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?t=196&highlight=conjunction) thread in the forums.

[rvrchamp]

1. I believe the surgeon can have as many as have died that turn. Granted, you cannot add to a unit that is completely destroyed, but it's nice to be able to use more the following turn.

So any unused corpse tokens are lost after one turn, or do they carry over to following turns?

... and yea, Shadowbind is pretty clutch. It really allowed me to tear apart his army at will. With the current meta being lots of 'jacks and 'beasts I think this ability becomes even more clutch, allowing the cryx player a tremendous level of board control. Seriously, I was able to shut down the main push in his army and kill the beasts individually with little fear of retaliation. Granted, against many armies shadowbind will not play such a strong roll in the game... but against melee 'jack/'beast lists it will be HUGE.

I'm definitely excited to get some more games in!

[Ersatz Nihilist]

I've just finished painting up my Coven, and will hopefully be having a few games some time soon with them. I heard somebody mention that each of the Witches can be activated individually, essentially meaning your caster can activate 3 times a turn.

Is there any truth in this?

[69Lazarus]

Shadowbind is where stygian really shines. I like to use puppet master to re-roll the "to hit" roll on jacks, hoping for doubles (which statistically, I believe is around 40%). I don't really care about damaging them, as locking them down is a lot more important.



This has been my expereince too. Being able to lock down a target (especially in scenario play) is crazy good. I've also increased my odds of getting Crits by knocking down a target first. (puppet master also helps)

[Jyggdrasil]

I've just finished painting up my Coven, and will hopefully be having a few games some time soon with them. I heard somebody mention that each of the Witches can be activated individually, essentially meaning your caster can activate 3 times a turn.

Is there any truth in this?

That is certainly how it worked in mk1.

[Ersatz Nihilist]

That is certainly how it worked in mk1.

Ah, excellent. I can't see it being that vast an advantage, but it's something I can talk about in an arcane and knowing fashion to intimidate my opponents.

[69Lazarus]

Yeah, it's always nice to come back and pop your feat with one of the witches later on after you've already cast from a different one.

[rvrchamp]

I've just finished painting up my Coven, and will hopefully be having a few games some time soon with them. I heard somebody mention that each of the Witches can be activated individually, essentially meaning your caster can activate 3 times a turn.

Is there any truth in this?

Yup... this is exactly the case, and what it allows is for unprecedented flexibility. By essentially splitting up your warcaster's turn you can cast a spell, activate a different model (like a 'jack), then go back to the warcaster, jump to yet another model or unit, and finish up with the warcaster again.

For example... activate witch A, cast infernal machine and ghostly embrace, end witch A activation. Activate Jack A and beat some face. Activate witch B, recast infernal machine on jack B and cast stygian abyss. Activate jack B and beat more face... You get the idea.


... and you can only use the witch's feat once.

[Ersatz Nihilist]

... and you can only use the witch's feat once.

As much as I'd love 3 turns of Nightfall, I suspect it might be a little overpowered.

[Ersatz Nihilist]

Coven didn't fare too well against the Harbinger. The vast majority of my spells are upkeep, so she just washed them away turn after turn, easily winning a Focus war by attrition. It also swept away all the LOS blockers I had up, which screwed me as I wasn't prepared for it. Next time I'll know not to cast Veil as a troop coverer.

I attempted to move in to batter her with my damage spell, but she had that 'Jack with her that prevents spell targetting (Devout, I think).

All in all, I'm scratching my head in regard to what I could have done, but I think an army revision rather than a tactics revision is in order.

[Jyggdrasil]

The list looks solid to me. Maybe drop the skarlock, but otherwise I reckon give it a couple more runs and see if you can evolve your tactics.

[dancingmonkey]

Played two games with them last night.
I hated them in MKI as I felt they had one pretty obvious trick and not a lot else. Loved the imprison spell though so was sad to see that go :(

My list was:

Coven (duh!)
Skarlock
Deathripper
Defiler
Seether
6 Bane Thralls
6 Statyxis Raiders + UA
Bacon Lettuce and Tomato (Tartarus)

First game was vs Ret. Opponent was using Houseguard. I used the raiders to tie up the gun guard and was using tartarus to tidy up the inf and spawn Banes.

Main spell use was stealth where needed and on the crunch turn Veil and Infernal Machine to put the Seether straight through some intervening inf and into the caster (Ravyn). She died...

Second game was vs Cygnar. Stryker, B13, Longunners, Sword Knights, Jr, Charger, Lancer, Ironclad, Squire, Chap with wrench.

Feat dominated along with stealth plus cloud. We were playing new mosh pit. Cygnar backed off to weather the feat and left very little to contest the pit. Barry called it once I had engaged the gunners, killed the B13 hat man, shredded most of the lance and again used Infernal machine and Veil to get a nifty charge to shred the Ironclad and throw him at the afore mentioned hat man, squishing him flat.

My impression of the new Coven are basically yay :)
Feat is great, limiting the amount your opponent can do. I think its for turn two really, allowing a strong alpha strike with limited retaliation. Stealth on any unit/jack is strong and veil allows you to get unexpected charge lanes.

Infernal machine plus a character jack or Seether is very strong. Mat 10, free charges and one point of focus on the Seether is great.

They are still so fragile and once the feat is gone you have to be careful, but with the changes to allow stealth to them all while still getting Perfect Conjecture adds to their effect. Watch out for AOEs though.

The feat giving -2 MAT and RAT is also a get out of jail card. Even with our lower DEF on some INF you are still getting good protection.

Still need lots of games, but I am seeing a new side to the girls.

With Cryx's real emphasis on jacks coming to the fore in the new meta then Infernal machine, ghost walk and veil make for a really strong strike force. Plus with the crazy tricks with activation of the girls, you can do it more than once with careful use of resources.

One interesting point is that I have really moved away from the spell assassination. The old Coven were all about looking for the three shots into the caster to win. While you can now get potentially four shots, the change/amendments to the faction as a whole have given new choices and a tidying up of old tricks meaning better coverage and keeping the foe on their toes which is the true Cryxian path to victory. Hit them where they haven't covered themselves and you are on the path to victory.

[rvrchamp]

The list looks solid to me. Maybe drop the skarlock, but otherwise I reckon give it a couple more runs and see if you can evolve your tactics.

I actually think the scarloc is a huge help with the coven. All their spells are casting cost three or lower, and only the veil is uncastable by the scarloc... In this way the scarloc allows for huge flexibility by moving upkeep spells and throwing out that occasional stygian abyss (scarloc does shoot spells at foc9!)

Personally I think the scrloc is clutch with coven.

[Jyggdrasil]

Given that you have 3 caster activations, the DJack and 2 arc-nodes, I thought otherwise. Seems to me that he just reinforces an area in which you are already very strong.

If you love him then so be it, but maybe think about what else those points could put on the table.

[Rave0183]

The original list looks good. Close to what I run for the same totals. Except for the Slayer is a Leviathan. But lately...I have been fielding the corrptor with the coven. Simply for the fact that the coven survives on arc nodes. Once they are gone you just have to take out the jacks they feed focus to. In this respect the corruptor makes nodes..and has a decent gun to boot.

There has been several occasions where I have moved the corrutor up to make a meat node. Even if he gets shot a few times he is more durable than my chickens. Easy to ghost walk him and move him away into an eager necrotechs hands.