Devout a chump now? Comparisions to the Mk II Sentinel

[jandrese]

In case you have not heard, the Sentinel was changed in the final version of Prime. Notably, it gained Shield Guard while staying at 4 points (someone correct me if I'm wrong, nobody has mentioned a points difference on any of the forums yet).

This makes it, to me, seem almost strictly better than the Devout, for one point less, at least if you plan to use it as a Shield Guard model.

In the field test, I noted that the Devout has to choose between protecting his caster and doing damage. This is unchanged really, but it's important to remember. If the Devout is up front whacking things with the Halbred, then he's almost certainly out of Shield Guard range from the caster.

The Sentinel however, does not need to make such a sacrifice, it can perform its primary duty just fine from 10" away. Shield Guard is basically free on it.

This, combined with the severe nerfing of Defensive Strike has left the Devout as a bit of a chump. About the only thing the Devout has over the Sentinel is the ability to Ward the controlling Warcaster, which is nifty but in truth I have almost never used that ability. It's far more situational than it might appear on paper IMHO.

In short, Shield Guard is a very powerful ability and the Sentinel should have gone up a point after getting it IMHO. If it's worth 5 points on a Devout, it should easily be worth 5 points on a Sentinel. Even if the Sentinel's gun is worthless, it's still no worse off than the Devout when doing its new job.

[Snake Eyes]

Meh. I don't care if the Sentinel favors comparably to the Devout. The Devout is essentially dead to me except for some Amon lists. Power to you Sentinel.

[Loveless]

It may also be a fair guess that if the Sentinel got something to make it more useful, the Devout may receive a boost as well.

As it stands, I have little reason to use it outside of the occasional Amon or Harbinger list (the latter mainly if I'm feeling bored).

[baronvonchaos]

The devout has been a chump ever since the nerf of defensive strike. Yeah Defensive strike mk1, a boosted out of turn attack that gave the attacker -2 MAT, was a bit much. I tied up a kodiak for an entire game with a light jack. That's kind of sad. (It was fun though)

I do however think that giving the devout 1 out of turn strike is horrible! That can't do anything to jacks and someone charging a single 1 wound model in is just stupid unless it has insanely high Def... *sigh* They can take away all the characteristics of Defensive Strike. That's fine. But for goodness sake give the devout a passive ability of +2 def while within 4" of the caster (or something to that effect). We have the worst Def Casters of any faction. That's not a terrible thing to ask...

I have 2 devouts and 1 will probably see the shelf, the other will sit in my case if for some reason I can't find anything else to fill 5 points.

Defensive strike sucks. Spell barrier is situational at best. Shield Guard is the only thing you'll take him for. Other than that, why take him when you can take a Repenter. Much better, more versatile light beatstick at -1 pt. Bastions make a better defender as they can form a circle around the caster that you have to chew through to get to him. With the piper and defender's ward with Sanguine Bond, you don't really clear out line of sight to the Caster. Def 15, ARM 18, weapon masters... 5 damage boosted swings @ 0 focus. Not bad.

The retribution's "everyone-has-phantom-seeker" travesty is the only bad thing I could think of that would supercede the bastion wall. If you have those running around unchecked, though, you're dead anyways.

The 1 bad thing that we got out of Mk2 was an impotent Devout. The rest of Mk2 I'm pretty happy about.

[Bastion5]

I see it as the shieldguard jack for Cygnar and Protectorate
The Devout has shieldguard and has a melee weapon, well suited as Menoth has a melee oriented meta

Sentinel has shieldguard and a chaingun, thats very Cygnar oriented meta

They cost the same amount of points a 4 point shieldguard jack for the two factions is all i see

[Loveless]

They cost the same amount of points a 4 point shieldguard jack for the two factions is all i see

The Devout, however, is 5 points. Were it 4 points I doubt this thread would exist.

[Soylent]

While the Devout may not warrent it's 5 points, I can say it has been fairly valuable to me in my Amon list. Shield Guard early on has been nothing short of amazing, especially when I've faced off against Siege(Ground Pounder on the feat turn). It then functions as a light jack with reach, simple, effective and at the very least pumping up the Synergy chain. Would I rather have a 3pt Bokur or a 4pt Sentinel? Sure, but until I get a different option than I have currently I'll still take the Devout in some lists.

[n00buaddib]

Sentinel got a new reason to exist and I, as a new Cygnar player was happily spamming the Cygnar boards, telling everyone how awesome he is now. And some still said he still sucks.

I always liked playing pFeora and 80% of my mk I games were played using her. And we're talking about 5+ games a week here. When I discovered the Devout, long after Escalation came out, I was the happiest panda around. I'd send her to melee and leave her exposed to stuff, knowing the trusty Devouts (I used 2) would hit and leave the wannabe assassin at 4- mat. I don't remember using spell barrier once.

Now, I play eFeora mostly (and pFeora sometimes) and I never leave home without one. 5 pts for something that sits with her, Giving her +2 arm and prevents an occasional manhunter charge or whatever. I don't feel bad for those 5 pts. You could say I feel an obligation to take one out of respect for all the good it did for me in mk I. It would be half true, he's still good, altough not OMG amazing. And be honest guys, the -2 mat, especially since it stacked WAS too good. Everything else that was too good got toned down, it had to go. Period.

But I will probably never ever again field two. One is fine for taking that occasional bullet or preventing a charge or whatnot, but two are now overkill. I will say Sentinel probably is a better value at one point less but...Sentinel doesn't have the Choir, eh? It's the tax we have to pay and it's only fair we do. :)

[Bastion5]

The Devout, however, is 5 points. Were it 4 points I doubt this thread would exist.

oops my bad :P

[Lanz]

I have 3 devouts, and right now I'm planning on getting Dervish hands to convert them with.

Yeah, the devout is pretty useless because of it's point cost. Shield guard isn't necessarily all that useful in the first place, because in many cases you can just put the 'jack infront of your caster so it's always blocking. And you could do that with a repenter, that is only 1arm less than a Devout, and has a scary gun.

Defensive strike is pretty useless now. There is nothing that would charge your caster that would be afraid of a defensive strike. Even though they nerfed the damage, they should have kept the -2 mat debuff, so that the attack was at least disruptive, if not threatening. Kinda like the Guard Dog rule.

If nothing else, I'd rather pay a point more and have a Crusader hugging my warcaster all game. At least that's a deterrant, and a large base, and it can take a beating for 1 more point.

Chances are, our new light jack will be a better bodyguard than a devout.

[n00buaddib]

It now forces you to play more offensively which is a good think. Did anyone notice that Infuse (from Choir) now lasts a turn, not a round? Big change there if you ask me. No more +2/+2 on defensive strikes.

[Soylent]

I can see how some Cygnar players might still scoff at the Sentinel as they have access to the Bokur.

[Yertle4]

The Devout is a Protectorate jack. Therefore it's better than the Sentinel.

[Marius]

I will say Sentinel probably is a better value at one point less but...Sentinel doesn't have the Choir, eh? It's the tax we have to pay and it's only fair we do. :)

No, it's not. I pay points for my Choir. Aside from boost warjacks they do nothing else. I don't expect my warjacks to include a choir tax as well. I would put a decent amount of hard earned cash on the fact that our warjacks do not have a choir tax. Bearing that in mind, comparing the sentinal and devout's prices and then involving the choir seems like an excuse. Doubly so as one of the choir's hymms (hymm of passage) does not synnergise with shield guard.

If we're going to compare the two, lets compare them, not their support.

[Jiub]

The Sentinel is worthless outside of Shield Guard. The Devout has Shield Guard and some other stuff that is only almost worthless.

[Lucas~]

The Sentinel is worthless outside of Shield Guard. The Devout has Shield Guard and some other stuff that is only almost worthless.
Garbage. While I seem to like the devout more than most people here, the ability to provide some offense while serving as a caster shield guard is awesome.

[moorg]

I have 3 devouts, and right now I'm planning on getting Dervish hands to convert them with.
Ditto here. Keeping 1 Devout for Harbinger, turning the rest to Dervishes.

[Killionaire]

Devout can still use Spell ward, right? Sentinel doesn't have that.

[Gorbad]

Garbage. While I seem to like the devout more than most people here, the ability to provide some offense while serving as a caster shield guard is awesome.

Offence? We are still talking about a Chaingun, right? :p

[AmonadRodrigues]

Offence? We are still talking about a Chaingun, right? :p

Up to 6 Rat 6 POW 10 Attacks are no offense? I really don't know, whats wrong wiht all that cygnar-players, but I've seen my buddies Sentinel doing a good job even without Shield Guard. I can't see a Sentinel is less effective than a Repenter for its 4 points.

[Amarel]

Up to 6 Rat 6 POW 10 Attacks are no offense? I really don't know, whats wrong wiht all that cygnar-players, but I've seen my buddies Sentinel doing a good job even without Shield Guard. I can't see a Sentinel is less effective than a Repenter for its 4 points.
"Up to" being the important part, here. It's its unreliability that people don't like - you can't make educated guesses on what it will do until you've rolled a random D6 (by which point, whatever your plan is, is now in motion).

[Poet]

A repenter is a lot better than the sentinel even with shield guard, and without a choir.
Spray with auto fire is just awesome. Rat 5 that ignores so many things is better than rat 6.
Even in melee the repenter can actually do things, while the sentinel can just sit there and sigh.

The only thing the sentinel has going for it is better defensive stats.

The devout is just sad though. I still use it, cause I like having shield guard and I can't get it anywhere else.

And Harbinger is actually the only caster I won't take a devout with, cause she protects my support better.

[jandrese]

If the Devout gets dropped to 4 points I think I'd be alright with it. At the very least it's a cheap reach light then and wouldn't stand out so badly next to the Sentinel. Sure the Sentinel's gun may not be great, but if you're getting it basically for free as part of your warcaster protection package, then it's hard to complain about. Protectorate players don't get that luxury, they have to choose between hitting things or getting caster protection, you typically can't get both at once with the Devout.

The worst part is that now that the Sentinel has sheild guard, I don't know if I could be happy with a 5 point devout that simply had the -2 MAT debuff and +2 to-hit rolled back into defensive strike. Before I would have said that shield guard is awesome, and that's why that extra point is there, but now I can't make that argument because the Sentinel is otherwise well costed at 4 (IMHO, and compared to the Repenter) and has Shield Guard to boot.

At least the Sentinel sort of lives up to its name now. Maybe the Devout will get countercharge in addition to defensive strike or something (although this could be gross with Amon). I don't know.

[Drillermaniac]

"Up to" being the important part, here. It's its unreliability that people don't like - you can't make educated guesses on what it will do until you've rolled a random D6 (by which point, whatever your plan is, is now in motion).

I must have been playing this game wrong.... I seem to roll random D6's all the time :confused:

[pureblood]

I can see how some Cygnar players might still scoff at the Sentinel as they have access to the Bokur.

4pts for a 26 damage points and Shield Guard or 3pts for 8 damage points and Shield Guard. I know what I would take!!!!

[jandrese]

I can't see any reason to take the Bokur unless you're really really hurting for that last point. The Sentinel is far and away the better shield guard. In fact, with his lackluster damage output and high cost, I can't imagine the Bokur is going to see much playtime at all in Cygnar lists now.

[Safim]

Seeing as Shield Guard is mostly used for 1-2 turns and most often against Eiryss I still can see taking a Bokur over a Sentinel.

[galonso]

Meh. I don't care if the Sentinel favors comparably to the Devout. The Devout is essentially dead to me except for some Amon lists. Power to you Sentinel.

So what do you use to protect your caster from getting shot in the face by Seige or Eiryss if he gets in range?

[jandrese]

With Eiryss you can block LOS. If you're forcing her to use Phantom Seeker then you've already won. That said, having someone with Shield Guard is very convenient for those times when your screen is shot away and some nasty ranged shooter (Eiryss, Defender, Thunderhead, Behemoth, Pistol Wraith, etc...) has a bead on your warcaster.

[galonso]

I agree. So why does the Devout suck again?

[IRSMARTLIKEROCK]

Mostly cost.

[jandrese]

Pretty much. The Devout costs too much for what it does compared to the Sentinel.

To be balanced, it would need to go down to Cost 4 and have the +2 to-hit and the -2 MAT debuff added back IMHO.

[Loveless]

It's not so much that the Devout sucks. It's more that there are better options in that point bracket. It still completes its job, it just isn't exciting.

The Sentinel, meanwhile, went from paperweight-useless to actually being included in some lists. The Devout was not nearly as dire as the Swans' Strafe-jack. Now the Sentinel is a shooting shield...which is perhaps a bit too effective in comparison to something like the Devout.

[IRSMARTLIKEROCK]

Pretty much. The Devout costs too much for what it does compared to the Sentinel.

To be balanced, it would need to go down to Cost 4 and have the +2 to-hit and the -2 MAT debuff added back IMHO.

Or maybe just change Defensive Strike to just -2 mat while in melee range of this model.

[jandrese]

That would probably be too good. He would be the best friends with the Daughters.

[IRSMARTLIKEROCK]

They would be far upfield, and he would have to double run to get to them in any reasonable amount of time.

[jandrese]

I tend to play the Daughters as a second line unit these days. Running them ahead just gets them killed, and with acrobatics they are one of the best units we have for jumping over the heads of TFG and putting a dagger in the back of whomever attempted to charge them.

[IRSMARTLIKEROCK]

Ah, I've been running them up a flank then crossing into center. To keep them from running up the middle/taking out their flankers.

[Amarel]

I must have been playing this game wrong.... I seem to roll random D6's all the time :confused:
You're being purposefully oblique. There is a big difference between rolling 2D6, with the knowledge of the average combined score, and rolling a single D6. As I'm sure you well know.

[galonso]

I dont agree. I think the Devout is fine. You just want it to do more. Dont forget about the benefits the choir can provide it.

[jandrese]

Except that Safe Passage also shuts down Shield Guard, and it costs even more if you start figuring in the cost of the Choirboy.

[galonso]

Im aware. What I meant was that the choir can boost its attack and damage or protect it from spells. The Sentinel doesnt have that. Additionally, the choir can support multiple jacks up to 4 for 2 points.

[Invader Larb]

True. However that benefit is paid for by purchasing the Choir. And actually the Choir does not buff the Devout very well. When the Devout is in a defensive roll, Battle Hymn will not help it (turn only now instead of round). Safe Passage actually negates one of its abilities. Yes, the ability to prevent spells is helpful.

The Devout is not terribly in need of a Vassal either.

The Reclaimer can put a focus on it to save the caster the cost to activate Spell Ward.

But in general, the Devout does not benefit much from our support. Either it stays in back and does not get support or it is up front and does not use Shield Guard or Spell Ward.

Additionally, the Sentinel can benefit from spells like Deadeye and Snipe. Plus he can be operated effectively by a jack marshal while doing his job as a bodyguard. It goes both ways.

[jandrese]

It's not entirely true that the Devout can't use shield guard while on the attack, but it tends to be used to protect things like Reclaimer Solos or Rhupert instead of the caster.

That's one reason I thought Shield Guard was such an awesome ability, it wasn't restricted to just the caster anymore, and why I'm shocked that the Sentinel didn't go up to 5 points when it got it.

[Ganmeyde]

I wish the Devout had slightly higher MAT, even just on the defensive strike. Still, for five points the Devout is still good... just not as good as it used to be, and it used to be one of the most feared models for its points in the game, like to Vilmon, Iron Fangs, Long Gunners, Bane Knights, etc.

[jandrese]

Do you think the Sentinel is just right too? Or are you like me and think that if the Devout is 5 points for what it can do, than the Sentinel is at least a point too cheap? The only argument I could see is the one you see from some Cygnar players that since the Sentinel has a random number of shots then the gun is completely worthless and should never be used. Then you're talking about a jack that just has a weak melee attack and Shield guard, which would be right for about 4 points, especially when compared to the Bokur.

[Drillermaniac]

You're being purposefully oblique. There is a big difference between rolling 2D6, with the knowledge of the average combined score, and rolling a single D6. As I'm sure you well know.

I know of course. I just couldn't help it. I'm sorry.;)

[Ganmeyde]

Do you think the Sentinel is just right too? Or are you like me and think that if the Devout is 5 points for what it can do, than the Sentinel is at least a point too cheap? The only argument I could see is the one you see from some Cygnar players that since the Sentinel has a random number of shots then the gun is completely worthless and should never be used. Then you're talking about a jack that just has a weak melee attack and Shield guard, which would be right for about 4 points, especially when compared to the Bokur. Sentinel doesn't have spell ward or defensive strike, as well as reach.

Sentinel's gun isn't bad, but it also lacks access to the choir and other such buffs.

Neither one is super amazing, and I see both as about right for the points, although if the sentinel had a bit more POW or a more stable damage output it could easily be 5 points.

Sentinel is a good 4 pointer, and devout is a decent 5 pointer. This is one of those cases that shows the weakness of the points system in mkII, but it's hardly pronounced enough to really ruin the balance or anything.

[Blaque]

I thought part of what made the devout good (and annoying for me as a Circle player) was the spell-ward and anit-magic from the Choir making the entire battlegroup pretty much anti-spellable.

I dunno, that seems to bump its point cost a bit there for me.

And stuff.

[Invader Larb]

The difference here is that when the Devout is a bodyguard it is sitting doing nothing but waiting to Defensive Strike at MAT 6 P+S 13 that can not be boosted or improved except by spell, which will only kill a trooper or solo if it hits. Meanwhile the Sentinel can shoot stuff while he sits back. Having a ranged attack on your bodyguard is superior to a melee attack.

I think they both fall somewhere between 4 and 5, but are very close to each other. If the Devout is going to cost a full point more, it aught to have a slight nudge up in ability.

[Safim]

Really? I wish the Sentinel had a hammer so that he can go and kill a solo that comes close.
The gun it has right now is so bad that it should give a point reduction.
For that gun to become useable your caster has to be upfront (or shieldguard is moot).

[Ganmeyde]

Neither one is as bad or as good as people say it is.

Sentinel could use a slightly more reliable gun, but it's not totally useless like some people say. And for four points, it's quite cheap as well.

Devout could use one more mat, or some way to make it a better bodyguard vs melee attacks, but it's still got the potential for total spell lockdown with a choir buff, and it threatens a fair bit of territory with reach. People underestimate a pow 13... it's not gonna dent most heavies and then kill their MAT before they can even attack, like the old Devout, but it's still capable of killing solos and it's a great psychological tool.

Both are fine. Sentinel is good for 4, devout is decent for 5.

[Ganmeyde]

Really? I wish the Sentinel had a hammer so that he can go and kill a solo that comes close.
The gun it has right now is so bad that it should give a point reduction.
For that gun to become useable your caster has to be upfront (or shieldguard is moot).
14 range with snipe is hardly up-front. Move it up faster than your caster and it can aim for d6 RAT 8 POW 10 shots. It clears out light infantry just fine.

And it's four points. It's not broken, but it's hardly useless.

Plus, we're comparing cross-faction, so it's hard to account for all the other factors that come into play, like Rune Bullets from the ATGM UA, or the Choir of Menoth.

[Invader Larb]

What I'd like to see on the Devout to finish off his cost 5 melee bodyguard duty:

Unballance - Enemy model's hit by an attack from this model suffer -2 MAT for one turn.

This would give a much greater value to its Defensive Strike and allow him to help models escape free strikes.

[9breaker]

Plus, we're comparing cross-faction, so it's hard to account for all the other factors that come into play, like Rune Bullets from the ATGM UA, or the Choir of Menoth.

This statement says it all.

[Rosicrucian]

14 range with snipe is hardly up-front. Move it up faster than your caster and it can aim for d6 RAT 8 POW 10 shots. It clears out light infantry just fine.

And it's four points. It's not broken, but it's hardly useless.

Plus, we're comparing cross-faction, so it's hard to account for all the other factors that come into play, like Rune Bullets from the ATGM UA, or the Choir of Menoth.

For the record, I like the Sentinel. But who in the hell is going to be sniping the bloody Sentinel? Setting aside the fact that Snipe is only on two casters, the Sentinel is so far down the list of likely targets that its not even worth mentioning.

[Ganmeyde]

For the record, I like the Sentinel. But who in the hell is going to be sniping the bloody Sentinel? Setting aside the fact that Snipe is only on two casters, the Sentinel is so far down the list of likely targets that its not even worth mentioning.
Not everyone runs full-on shooty, and a 20" threat with d6 attacks is nothing to scoff at. If you go second, it's entirely possible to clear out some running infantry on turn one while keeping your caster safe from ranged retaliation.

d6 dead Exemplars in an effective ~4" AoE seems like a good investment of two focus. It's hardly something you'd want to do all game, but you can't just write it off.

[AmonadRodrigues]

It has a 14" range even without sniper. Target enemy heavy 10" away, get some bonus attacks on a solo hiding behind the heavy (a Vassal for example) and you'll likely kill it. Counting the Heavies base size and the 2" the solo may be away from the Heavy, you killed an important model that was 14" away.

If hes hiding behind a Heavy, you can even get a shot on the enemy caster that way as well. I really don't know, why this chaingun is blamed so much.:confused:

[Loveless]

I really don't know, why this chaingun is blamed so much.:confused:

Lack of reliability. How much focus do you give to a 'jack when you don't know how many shots it's going to have? What if you want to boost damage? Boost to hit? Whatever. It's a pain to allocate the Focus to it and then whiff your Strafe roll.

Now the model is a shield guard that happens to have a ridiculous gun - it can guard and shoot at the same time, not a bad deal for a protector.

The Devout has a much smaller threat range, but it's still effective for what it does - it just feels like there are better ways to spend the points.

That said, I don't think the Devout or the Sentinel will be paperweights in Mk. II - nor do I think anyone will be using them as auto-includes.

[Killionaire]

The Sentinel does not work in practice. It really doesn't. 10 inch range on the primary target, weak POW10 shots (which Cygnar gets in massive droves, but more accurate from other sources) and such means it's gun was a failure. 4 points for 1-6 POW10 shots at RAT6? I'll take Rangers for 5 points, and get 6 POW11 shots for RAT6/8, that also add +2 to the whole army thank you. And snipe? Really? Every Cygnar army has better options for a snipe target. Hell, with Caine, he often snipes himself. With Stryker, sniping your disruption pistol isn't that bad an idea if everything else is dead. And if that's the case, a Sentinel is not going to save you.

Giving it shield guard actually gave it a purpose besides bad charger substitute. Especially with the excellent Cyclone now available.

The Devout still has spell ward, which is probably why it's upcosted 1 point to 5. Reach also does matter somewhat, as an area denial ability.

[jandrese]

To be honest though, I barely ever use Spell Ward. It requires awkward positioning and most of the time your caster is not under threat from spells. It's a far more situational ability than it might appear on paper.

[Safim]

14 range with snipe is hardly up-front. Move it up faster than your caster and it can aim for d6 RAT 8 POW 10 shots. It clears out light infantry just fine.

And it's four points. It's not broken, but it's hardly useless.

Plus, we're comparing cross-faction, so it's hard to account for all the other factors that come into play, like Rune Bullets from the ATGM UA, or the Choir of Menoth.

Why? We don't need to factor in runebullets as the Sentinel can't use runebullets.
And it doesn't kill examplars as surely as you seem to think. It hits on 5s and kills on sixes and it gets worse from there. You'll lose 1-2 exemplars per turn max.

For my money I'd put snipe on something worth sniping.

[Defenstrator]

First off I think there's a bit of disconnect here. Whether the Sentinel is a good model or not has nothing to do with whether the Devout is a good model or not. You can use the Sentinel and the Bokur as a comparison, but it doesn't affect whether the Devout is worth it to Menoth players.

In our own meta they haven't disappeared. With things like Mules, Mariners, Hunters, Chargers and Defenders around they are seen as a prudent choice, especially for casters like Reznik and the Harbinger who have a hard time hiding out. And with the Choir they are still capable of beating some face in melee with MAT 8 POW 15. This is some actual serious damage that the Sentinel just can't do vs hard targets. But what's probably pushing it into the 5 point territory is the Spell Barrier. Not being able to be targeted by enemy spells is pretty sweet, especially when it is relatively easy to get no knockdown and the no target for spells as well on the Devout with models that are already there to support the rest of the army.

Could it be 4 points? I guess, but I haven't playtested it at that. I do know that I have no problem paying 3 points for the Bokur who has less ARM and no where near as many wounds.

[Poet]

The fact is, the only reason you'd play a devout is because you have no other way to get shield guard.
that, or you really want anti magic on your caster for some reason, I don't, if my caster it targeted by spells, its because I've already lost.

[Ganmeyde]

Why? We don't need to factor in runebullets as the Sentinel can't use runebullets.
And it doesn't kill examplars as surely as you seem to think. It hits on 5s and kills on sixes and it gets worse from there. You'll lose 1-2 exemplars per turn max.

For my money I'd put snipe on something worth sniping. But it's not useless.

And exemplars were just an example, like Rune Shot was just being used to point out that each faction has different things available to their jacks in the form of support, and was not necessarily meant to apply specifically to the Sentinel.

And let me repeat,
Plus, we're comparing cross-faction, so it's hard to account for all the other factors that come into playYou seem incredibly determined to prove that your model, which has a different point cost, access to different buffs, and different casters to bodyguard, is inferior to a higher priced model without a ranged attack, with a different emphasis on the distance your caster is from the main fight.

Like I've been saying this entire thread, both models have their weaknesses, and both have unique abilities the other does not bring to the table. Despite their shared shield guard, they have a different niche. They both fill their role adequately, and are balanced.

Regardless, this is my last post in this thread. My troll senses are tingling.

[Safim]

So, you threw the rune bullets in there even though they got nothing to do with the topic just to be contrary. Ironic that you say your troll senses are tingling when you are pulling stunts like that. But I digress, I really have no interest in the back and forth that comes with accusations like that.

Oh and for the record. I don't care what you think about the Devout or the Sentinel and I really don't want to convince anyone of my opinion either. PP seems to think that the Sentinel should be 4 and have shieldguard while the devout should be five, have shield guard and anti magic abilities.
I am merely pointing out why I think they might have decided in the way they did.

[Lanz]

Want an amusing comparison?

The Merc Vanguard is also a light with a shield and sheild guard. Compared to the devout, it does not have Spell Barrier, or defensive strike.

Instead it has a shield AND a spear, AND a gun, can assault, and has the best stats of any light 'jack chassis in the game. Spd 6(cygnar speed), Str 9(PoM str), MAT/RAT 6(cygnar accuracy), Def 13(Cygnar def), Arm 17/19(PoM arm), same total boxes as a PoM light too.

It is also 5 points.

I'd much rather have a Vanguard.

[Soulblighter]

Devout should just cost 4 points as is.

[darisus]

Devout should just cost 4 points as is.

Totally agree and if we keep posting about it something may be done. It is a big fear of mine that i will get stuck with a mediocre overcost shield guard unit and have to take it cause i have no other option if i want one to protect a caster.

[Bastion5]

I don't care how a protectorate jack can be compared to a cygnar jack. I use a devout in both my Kreoss1 and Kreoss2 lists, and thinking about using one in my reznik list. For me at least hes paid back his points everygame just about. LOL once in a feeble attempt to damage a juggernaut i boosted damage with his P+S 13 axe and rolled 2 6's and a 5. Been the best bodyguard ever since :P

[ZenBattleLust]

Cygnaran perspective:

This is a really common complaint on Cygnar's board. We compare the raw stats and abilities of models we have to the raw stats and abilities that other factions' models get (particularly Cryx/Protectorate) and frequently feel like we're coming up short. Our stuff tends to be expensive. That's just how it is. The reason a lot of our things are really expensive is because we have means to buff it: arcane shield, snipe and what not. A range 10, pow 11 gun that might not be so scary in Khador's hands can be pretty damn powerful in Cygnar's.

You don't pay points for how good a jack is in the abstract; you pay points for how good a model is in your faction.

Now, you Menites, being a faction filled with really inexpensive models might not be so used to coming up on the short end of the point stick, but in this case, you're just going to have to suck it up. Yes, the harbinger really is that good. No, she shouldn't be able to bring two shield guards for 8 points. If she's going to bring any shield guard, it should cost her 5, and not 4 points. If you didn't have the harbinger, you might have more of a case to make, but you do, so you don't .

The sentinel is a good cheap jack, now (so is the charger). If Cygnar were a faction filled with good cheap jacks, that might be a problem. But we aren't. We only get a couple, and when a faction that gets heavies for 6 points complains about its jacks being too expensive compared to ours, it's a little on the silly side.

[Lanz]

Except... that not everyone runs the harbinger all the time. A bodyguard 'jack shouldn't be scaled to bodyguarding a single caster.

Besides, cygnar can't use that arguement anyways, they now have the sentinel to guard Darius, who can just turn around and repair it every turn.

[darisus]

Cygnaran perspective:

The sentinel is a good cheap jack, now (so is the charger). If Cygnar were a faction filled with good cheap jacks, that might be a problem. But we aren't. We only get a couple, and when a faction that gets heavies for 6 points complains about its jacks being too expensive compared to ours, it's a little on the silly side.

You mean the crusader with the oh so long 7.5 in threat range...

[jandrese]

The crazy thing is, the Devout is pretty lousy at defending the Harbinger, because her giant base lets just anybody shoot past the Devout. Sure he can sheild guard one shot a turn, but typically something like a minimum unit of Vengers (admittedly 2 points more expensive) do a much better job of keeping her safe.

[Justicator]

Cygnaran perspective:

If you didn't have the harbinger, you might have more of a case to make, but you do, so you don't .

This coming from the faction with eHaley ... bah

As a note, your sentinel can guard her really easy, Harby comes with her own nerfs (large base and a tendency to cut herself)



The sentinel is a good cheap jack, now (so is the charger). If Cygnar were a faction filled with good cheap jacks, that might be a problem. But we aren't. We only get a couple, and when a faction that gets heavies for 6 points complains about its jacks being too expensive compared to ours, it's a little on the silly side.

We have ONE 6 point heavy.
You have a 7 point heavy which is arguably earning well that single point above our 6 pointer.

And last I checked we have the same number of 4 point jacks ... so no comparison there either.

We don't have a 7 point jack. The rest of our heavies are 8+ and frankly need our Awesome support to be as good as other factions 8 point heavies.

Castigator vs. Kodiak for example - Kodiak is better
Guardian vs. Cyclone & Khadors new heavy at the 9 point level - The other 2 are better

Without our support our jacks are nothing to write home about. We aren't filled with cheap good jacks. We're filled with average costed, solid vanilla jacks.

[n00buaddib]

We're also filled with awesome support, aka Choir, Vassal and Covenant. When your whole army is immune to shooting, that MAY just be a problem for some opponents. :p

[coopernicus]

I have 3 devouts, and right now I'm planning on getting Dervish hands to convert them with.Ooo... Good idea! I also have 3 Devouts (and one Dervish) but changing arms would work.

It is a bit of a toss for the poor Devout. After suffering from the first MkI over-nerf he's just been getting worse and worse. I really can't believe they didn't give him back the -2 MAT on a hit... Seriously we're spending 5 points on a jack that most of the time needs to sit with the caster (therefore it doesn't get into the fray, devaluing it) and has literally nothing but defensive abilities which are so lackluster as to be laughable.

I really don't see how he's worth fielding for 5 points without the -2 MAT... oh well, that just leaves space for MOR VANQS!!!

[whats82]

Not everyone runs full-on shooty, and a 20" threat with d6 attacks is nothing to scoff at. If you go second, it's entirely possible to clear out some running infantry on turn one while keeping your caster safe from ranged retaliation.

d6 dead Exemplars in an effective ~4" AoE seems like a good investment of two focus. It's hardly something you'd want to do all game, but you can't just write it off.

Have to disagree, rather fully.
As it was mentioned, if you're taking one of the two casters with snipe, you take something worth sniping, you don't randomly throw it on the sentinel. Then there's the fact that unless you're shooting at things like McThralls who are bundled together, you have (for the sake of argument, even though an average number is meaningless on a linear distribution of probability because any number shows up as likely as any other) 3~4 shots on average, which will hit roughly half the time on regular infantry with unbuffed stat, and pow10 does not reliably kill even ARM15's. So unaided, a sentinel tend to kill 1 light infantry per round. That number tend closer to 0 against things that's harder to shoot at such as stealth infantry, shieldwall, anything in concealment, or oh.. Satyx Raiders which you need a 8~12 to hit depending on absence of terrain.

The sentinel can only really earn its points back by having some kind of boost and solo hunting(like guided fire from Kraye), and unless you roll loaded dice, is very unreliable in its performance.

[Invader Larb]

But isn't killing a trooper better than doing nothing? The Devout (in defense mode) walks up the table and waits for people to come to him. The Sentinel can at least fire off a ferw shots on the way while on bodyguard duty. A few troopers will cover your 4 point investment pretty easily.

[jandrese]

Most troopers are a little under 1 point a piece. If the Sentinel can kill 4-5 troopers during the course of the game, it will have made its points back, for whatever that's worth. The Devout needs to kill 5 or 6, which is tough when you're sitting back and waiting for someone to charge in near your caster. Especially with the new massively nerfed Defensive Strike.

[whats82]

Killing a few troopers to make back its point cost, sure.
Until you ran into a few lists that there's nothing it can shoot at, a few games in a row. Such as menoth jack walls, cryx stealth/incorp, or even retribution stealth. Even Circle can run some stealth stuffs.

Shieldwall units, well, if you calculate the average, even if you get 6 shots against 13/18 warrior models, you'll on average kill 1 model (needing 7 to hit and 9 to kill). The number of troopers it can kill unaided 'tend to 0'. The shieldwall unit will then either kill/wound/engage the sentinel next turn, and a sentinel is like a 1 pt solo in terms of damage output in melee for his mat6 pow10.

4-5 troopers, yes, you need either loaded dice, great luck, or some really good support. I don't dispute that it's decent with Kraye, for example.

Things it CAN kill, tend to cost 0.5~0.6 per model.
Things it want to kill costing 0.8~1.0 per model, it'll need boosts.

[Invader Larb]

How about shooting 2 or 3 models and taking a shield Guard bullet for your caster once. That sounds good.

Again, the Devout has to wait for someone to get close to do any killing at all, and the Defensive Strike is not going to generate very many extra kills.

The Sentinel is swell and worth its cheap 4 point cost. The Devout is a little lack-luster in comparison.

[Razhem]

What I think is people aren't embracing enough how shield guard can cover any model, not just the warcaster. Keep the Devout in the frontlines and have him take bullets for other models. They shoot a Bastion and you feel some damage boxes on the devout aren't a big deal? take the bullet for him. Want to keep a spearmen alive to do some disruption? take the bullet for him. Didn't chant no shooty and a disruptor bolt would make your Fire of salvation Cry? Take the bolt.

To me it's my cheapest jack with reach and I treat him as scuh (I despise the dervish and the revenger has more important tasks to tend to).

[jandrese]

There's no argument that Shield guard is good, which is why I mentioned before that I was surprised the Sentinel got it and stayed at 4 points.

[Razhem]

There's no argument that Shield guard is good, which is why I mentioned before that I was surprised the Sentinel got it and stayed at 4 points.
Well, lets be honest, the chain gun on it's arm is meish at best, at least, even if you have the devout on the backlines on warcaster protection duty, he can come out of hiding and be mat 8 with pow 15, the sentinel can be pelting you all game, but it will probably not be as close to stellar.

Anyway, my point is people shoehorn the devout into protecting just the caster, thing is old man Severius can protect himself decently enough by being very far, so why not have the devout being a shield for the rest of your army, at least against guns? a couple of grunts here and there, a solo whose life you kept going, hell, have him take a bombard to the face instead of your Vanquisher. That seems useful enough to me to justify him and he is still a competent melee protectorate jack. Just have him do his job in the frontlines instead of the back and you should get a lot more mileage out of him.

[whats82]

Good points Razhem, I've actually been using the sentinel's shield guard to protect solos and I agree that most casters can function fine without shield guard as is anyways.

[brotherscott]

The Devout still works pretty much the same way it did in MK I, with the notable change to Defensive Strike. I don't mind the 'jack, it does fill a role on the table, I tend to run more offensive.

Its Shield Guard ability is better, I think, since it can take the shot for any friendly model within 2". And even with Passage affecting the Devout, it can still take the hit. From the stat card pdf:

?Passage (*Action) - The warjack cannot be targeted by non-magical ranged attacks. Passage lasts for one round.

Shield Guard - Once per round, when a friendly model is directly hit by a ranged attack during your opponentʼs turn while within 2˝ of this model, this model can become the target of the attack and be automatically hit instead. This model cannot use Shield Guard if it is incorporeal, knocked down, or stationary.

The italics are my doing for emphasis. Automatically overrides cannot be targeted.

Comparing the Sentinel to the Devout based on one ability isn't a good comparison, they both fill different roles and uses for their respective factions.

[Invader Larb]

They have rules clearly that Safe passage precvent Shield Guard. Automatically hit trumps automatically miss. But "May not target" trumps auto-hit.

The Devout is not pretty much the same jack. Defensive Strike had 4 changes that diminish it (no MAT debuff, no +2 to hit, no boosted damage, and no benefit from Choir on the opponent's turn). Shield guard also changed. It can no longer cause your Devout to move in such a way as to block LOS to your caster. it now only takes the one bullet. Yes, being able to take a buillet for non-caster models is a nice option. But the Devout was changed significantly.

Ultimately it was changed for good reason. The question now is does it have a job. Does it do that job well for its cost.

[brotherscott]

OK, forgive my ignorance, do you have a link to the ruling?

My argument would be that the Devout is not being targeted by the attack, but has become the new target and is automatically hit.

Changes may have happened between the stat cards pdf and what comes out in the FoW book. I will be glad to wait and see before I borrow any trouble.

[Lanz]

Yeah, may not be targetted supercedes auto-miss or auto-hit, since targetting comes before any actual rolling(thus comming before any hitting of any kind, auto or otherwise).

Though, that said, it doesn't say shield guard cannot be applied if the devout cannot be targetted, nor anything else in regards to how it's applied, other than that it can't be used if knocked down, stationary, or incorporeal. Looks like a loophole to me unless they have it errata'd or will change the exact wording of the rules in final print.

Personally, I think it would all work out if the devout could use shield wall and negate the shot with safe passage, allowing a warcaster to outright negate a shot on it entirely. That I would pay 5 points for.

Edit: Looking at it again, I think the point is more that; Does 'become the target of the attack'(shield guard) override 'cannot be targetted'(passage).

[IRSMARTLIKEROCK]

Actually that's not a terrible idea, since it's only a single shot per turn, and can still be negated with a magical shot.

[jandrese]

They have rules clearly that Safe passage precvent Shield Guard. Automatically hit trumps automatically miss. But "May not target" trumps auto-hit.

The Devout is not pretty much the same jack. Defensive Strike had 4 changes that diminish it (no MAT debuff, no +2 to hit, no boosted damage, and no benefit from Choir on the opponent's turn). Shield guard also changed. It can no longer cause your Devout to move in such a way as to block LOS to your caster. it now only takes the one bullet. Yes, being able to take a buillet for non-caster models is a nice option. But the Devout was changed significantly.

Ultimately it was changed for good reason. The question now is does it have a job. Does it do that job well for its cost.

There was a fifth nerf too. Models now have to enter the Devout's melee range to trigger Defensive Strike. Models that start in melee range are not valid targets.

The reason you can't use shield guard and safe passage is because the jack must be targeted for shield guard to work, and safe passage prevents targeting. You can still intercept magical ranged shots though.

[Arkady]

Plus, we're comparing cross-faction, so it's hard to account for all the other factors that come into play, like Rune Bullets from the ATGM UA, or the Choir of Menoth.
Rune shot is irrelevant, since strafe is a *Attack.

[Soulblighter]

Anyway, my point is people shoehorn the devout into protecting just the caster

The whole point of the Devout is to protect the caster. Theres nothing wrong with shoehorning the Devout into the role its supposed to fill. For 5 points the Devout should be better at protecting the caster.

[Razhem]

The whole point of the Devout is to protect the caster.
Why? he has the tools to protect stuff and still get a good use from his halberd.

[Soulblighter]

Because theres better options if you want a jack that kills stuff. The Devout is supposed to protect stuff. I dont think it protects stuff well enough to be worth 5 points.

[Lanz]

Because theres better options if you want a jack that kills stuff. The Devout is supposed to protect stuff. I dont think it protects stuff well enough to be worth 5 points.

This.

A revenger is a much better body-guard really. Tougher, and can actually push back attackers to free the warcaster to walk out of combat. It's a shame the Devout doesn't have Repel on it's shield. Being able to defensive-strike with a repel weapon would have balanced the nerf. Then it could physically knock away a model that tries to engage the warcaster. Not to mention it has an arc node. All for 1 point more.

The only thing you could put a Devout next to where it would justify being there is the Harbinger. And she's so easy to hit that a single devout probably won't save her anyways. Even then, I'd probably just take a crusader, or Vengers, and use that to block LoS to her completely.

Really, why would you take a devout? What role would it fill well enough to actually do what another model could not?

[MoDination]

As far as the random number of attacks for a sentinel how many cygnar jacks get more than one attack anyways?

As for the devout, I own 5 as I mainly played Amon lists through Mk 1 and they were just darn good little jacks, though they will see very little play time in the months ahead. Yes the boosted attack and damage with the choir was a little over the top (especially with synergy...) But they could have at least retained the -2 mat non-stacking.

Or, just replace the devout with a gun-less vanguard and I'd be happy!

[WarJack Prime]

compared to his MKI self he's a chump, but then again so is almost every other jack in comparison. In MKII he's not a chump. He's just not an auto-include like he was.

Put a few of them around and they can protect important solos while not having to babysit your caster anymore. That's cool.

[Soylent]

Count me as a changed man. I really like the Devout. While it may just be my local meta, I've been seeing a lot more shooting so Shield Guard in the early rounds has been a boon. Once I've crossed the field and have gotten stuck in then I switch it's role to melee. It's doing something the whole game from the start where my Dervishes start to perform typically on the third round so that extra point is well spent. Don't think of it as trying to fulfill both roles at once, just flip the lightswitch to have it go from defense to offense.