Engines - need a different type of tourament?

[Gopz]

Hi all,

The new engines that each faction is getting look quite awesome. Therefore you'd expect them to be a lot of points with loads of powerful effects. I wonder how / if they will fit into standard games of WarmaHordes. Seems to me it's sort of like a game of 40k where someone brings a titan. Perhaps they will be limited to larger games over 50pts? Maybe this has been mentioned but I've not heard of it yet.

[AJ the Ronin]

I'm sure they will fit in a standard 50 point game just fine.

I wouldn't be surprised if you may use them on a 35 point game with the same caveats you may use a full cavalry unit, character 'jack or a "expensive" unit on that range (the list is tailored on the "expensive" model)

[Gopz]

Interesting times ahead.

"Whats your list?"
"Oh, a caster and the <faction> engine"
"gumph!"

[hausdorff space]

...IIRC it's been said that Battle engines will cost around the same as a heavy jack (whic puts them in the 7 -12pt bracket).
While big and interesting, I wouldn't expect the world from them.

I suspect that it will turn out that the Commodore cannon is a mini-"Battle Engine".

[AJ the Ronin]

We already know that they will cost less than the character 'jacks. That means 12 points of less. If people play with full cavalry or character 'jacks at 35 and win is not inconceivable* to have 35 points list with Battle Engines.


*Yes, I know. :p

[Wild-Eyes]

All of the semi-spoilers that we have received from various insider blog posts points to the Battle Engines being around 7-10 points. They're going to be essentially massive solos with lots of hit points and armor, but won't be able to use focus. The intent is for them to fill their own rolls without overshadowing the battle group. So to directly answer your question, no, we won't need any new tournament brackets just to include battle engines

[DevonV]

Yeah, from everything I've read, they are not Titans, they're not even Baneblades, just Land Raiders. The Arcantrik Field Generator has 20 HP and no more than 20 ARM, so they seem like they may actually be quite vulnerable to focused attacks. I suspect that they are intended to bridge the gap between 50 and 100 points where you need a non-warjack point sink and may not want to spam infantry, but like any high cost model, you can base lower point lists around them if you want.

[Mantractor]

Screw you guys, I'm taking them at 15 points.

pSorscha
Gun Carriage
Destroyer
Wardog

Bring it on!

[Stevo]

Screw you guys, I'm taking them at 15 points.

pSorscha
Gun Carriage
Destroyer
Wardog

Bring it on!

Gun Carriage with Fog of War! Unstoppable!!!!! ;P

[Lanz]

I suspect we'll see house-ruled tournaments that do not allow them for quite some time. At least until people whine enough about it.

Reason? Hordes don't have them, so the less-savvy TOs will translate that into an imbalance between the games. It is, to some degree, depending on what they really can do. If they bring anything at all unique to the table, then in a sense they are imbalanced against hordes, who do not have the option to field them. I doubt it will make any difference to whether or not either party will win, but it will still appear unfair to many. Thus we will see them marginally-condemned until everyone has one.

Which will likely cause a sales issue in the short-term, but it's unlikely people will buy more than one for quite some time, so better late than never.

[Terraneaux]

I suspect we'll see house-ruled tournaments that do not allow them for quite some time. At least until people whine enough about it.

Reason? Hordes don't have them, so the less-savvy TOs will translate that into an imbalance between the games. It is, to some degree, depending on what they really can do. If they bring anything at all unique to the table, then in a sense they are imbalanced against hordes, who do not have the option to field them. I doubt it will make any difference to whether or not either party will win, but it will still appear unfair to many. Thus we will see them marginally-condemned until everyone has one.

Which will likely cause a sales issue in the short-term, but it's unlikely people will buy more than one for quite some time, so better late than never.

I'm not particularly worried about imbalance issues. They seem the sort of thing that heavy 'jacks getting close to could ruin.

[Pinegulf]

Eh? So far we haven't really seen any actual rules, have we? Sorry for being stubborn, but I for one will wait for the full rules before decision.

[Lanz]

I'm not particularly worried about imbalance issues. They seem the sort of thing that heavy 'jacks getting close to could ruin.

Remember; just having Theme lists in Warmachine prior to the Hordes Mk2 books caused some TOs to disallow theme lists.

TOs can be stubborn and touchy sometimes, it seems.

It wouldn't suprise me, in any case, and the sad thing is? The rules would have very little to do with it. Just the fact that it's an entirely new type of model and Warmachine has it, yet Hordes doesn't. That's all it will take in some people's minds.

[Mantractor]

I'm willing to say those TO's are pretty stupid, considering PP's own stance on Warmachine/Hordes release dates is well-documented. Hordes always gets its stuff later, but it always gets the stuff that has been better tweaked and has all the newest innovations. With Warmachine they get to watch us stumble around and see all the flaws.

If you don't want an event that has released models before other models... well host your event later. lol.

Speaking of releases, where's my Bombardiers?

[CT GAMER]

Hi all,

The new engines that each faction is getting look quite awesome. Therefore you'd expect them to be a lot of points with loads of powerful effects. I wonder how / if they will fit into standard games of WarmaHordes. Seems to me it's sort of like a game of 40k where someone brings a titan. Perhaps they will be limited to larger games over 50pts? Maybe this has been mentioned but I've not heard of it yet.

I'd love to see a horse drawn cart take on a titan...

If anything these are the IK version of catapults, chariots, and well...other such "warengines" etc.

[blue loki]

I'm willing to say those TO's are pretty stupid, considering PP's own stance on Warmachine/Hordes release dates is well-documented. Hordes always gets its stuff later, but it always gets the stuff that has been better tweaked and has all the newest innovations. With Warmachine they get to watch us stumble around and see all the flaws.

If you don't want an event that has released models before other models... well host your event later. lol.

How about instead, if you don't like the idea of an event disallowing a new model type, don't show up.
Or even better than that, host your own event with your own rules instead of relying on "stupid" TOs to do all of that work for you.

[Polar_Bear]

Alright, everybody, calm down.

PB

[Halfhoot]

I can't wait to shoot one with a pair of Hunters. I need to go practice my evil maniacal laugh now.

Actually I can see it now... my Cygnar friend and I both get one and want to play and end up with an all electrical list where neither of us can do anything but sit around the camp fire and stare vigorously at each other for a few rounds.

[sourclams]

Although the new rules and base sizes make this somewhat unlikely, it sure would be fun for my Bronzeback to 2hand throw your war engine at your 'caster...

[Mod_Redphantasm]

Although the new rules and base sizes make this somewhat unlikely, it sure would be fun for my Bronzeback to 2hand throw your war engine at your 'caster...

Battle Engine Special rule: Warjacks and warbeasts attempting to throw or slam this model take 2D6 damage from the strain of doing so. Battle engines only move half distance on a slam or throw and are immune to knockdown.

[Wintersmith]

Eh? So far we haven't really seen any actual rules, have we? Sorry for being stubborn, but I for one will wait for the full rules before decision.

That is not the way of the forums, young padawan. Doom! DoooooOOOOOooooOOOOOoooommmmm! DOOOOOOOMMMMMMMM!

Say it with me now! DDDDDDOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM!

In all seriousness, Privateer does a great job with game balance for the most part. I can't imagine these models will lead to a massively unbalanced game.

[hengist]

It will be interesting to see how they interact with rules like armor piercing. Are 120 mm basis classed as extra large or what I wonder?

[The Happy Anarchist]

Battle Engine Special rule: Warjacks and warbeasts attempting to throw or slam this model take 2D6 damage from the strain of doing so. Battle engines only move half distance on a slam or throw and are immune to knockdown.

Battle Engine following the core rules. You can't throw a model with a larger base size.

[dboeren]

I wouldn't have a problem playing against Battle Engines with my Hordes stuff. So it's a model type we don't have, so what? As long as it's not way undercosted it's not going to affect balance.

[Nickster]

Battle Engine Special rule: Warjacks and warbeasts attempting to throw or slam this model take 2D6 damage from the strain of doing so. Battle engines only move half distance on a slam or throw and are immune to knockdown.

Immune to Knockdown? Have you ever tried tipping a cow? I could totally see a warjack slamming a war engine and knocking it over! Especially the Menoth war engine. It looks a bit top heavy.

What about a Merc war engine? I'm sure they have pieced together some sort of cart with a gun on it or even slapped two warjacks together with an operator on top.

[DarkLegacy]

I know that all of my events will allows all models released up to the date of the event.

[ScottEBJJ]

A TO not allowing Theme Forces at tournament prior to the release of the Hordes books is creating extra issue for absolutely no reason.

Theme Forces are in no way must haves for competetive play. In fact outside of a handful it be a handicap to take them at all.

If Battle Engines are balanced within the game then thier is no reason for a TO to bar them.

[ScottEBJJ]

It will be interesting to see how they interact with rules like armor piercing. Are 120 mm basis classed as extra large or what I wonder?

AP specifies Medium or larger bases. Not Medium and Large. Its safe to say they qualify as larger then Medium.

[Feeple]

AP specifies Medium or larger bases. Not Medium and Large. Its safe to say they qualify as larger then Medium.
True. Eveny model entry has a "Base size" listing, so what are they going to call the BE base size? "Mammoth?" "Woah Man That's Big?"

[Zenassassin]

Therefore you'd expect them to be a lot of points with loads of powerful effects.

There is no reason at all to expect that. They are not 40K titans and this is not 40K. Honestly, making big models cost exponentially more points is a newbie mistake and is a relic of 20 year old, outdated game design. There's no reason it has to be that way and no reason it should be that way except if it happens to be warranted on a case-by-case basis.

I'm not knocking GW here, that's how everyone used to do it. But there's not real REASON, it's just a status quo from the old days that needn't be adhered to. I play Fantasy still sometimes and even there, you can have a Stegadon that's loaded full of nonsense, has a Shaman on it w/ magic items, Engine Of The Gods, and costs a million points. But you can also take 3 of them with no upgrades and just spam them for cheap.

Of course Warmahordes doesn't have upgrades or options, which is just evidence of the minimalist design approach they have further enforced w/ mkII. Expect pretty cheap point for the Engines (like 8-9) and for them to be less complex than warjacks. "Super Solos" not "Next Step More Than Warjacks".

[AJ the Ronin]

What Zen said.

[Lanz]

There is no reason at all to expect that. They are not 40K titans and this is not 40K. Honestly, making big models cost exponentially more points is a newbie mistake and is a relic of 20 year old, outdated game design. There's no reason it has to be that way and no reason it should be that way except if it happens to be warranted on a case-by-case basis.

I'm not knocking GW here, that's how everyone used to do it. But there's not real REASON, it's just a status quo from the old days that needn't be adhered to. I play Fantasy still sometimes and even there, you can have a Stegadon that's loaded full of nonsense, has a Shaman on it w/ magic items, Engine Of The Gods, and costs a million points. But you can also take 3 of them with no upgrades and just spam them for cheap.

Of course Warmahordes doesn't have upgrades or options, which is just evidence of the minimalist design approach they have further enforced w/ mkII. Expect pretty cheap point for the Engines (like 8-9) and for them to be less complex than warjacks. "Super Solos" not "Next Step More Than Warjacks".

Except basically every game does this. Bigger is always better.

Except in Anime, in which case it's the smallest, runtiest of the bunch that was secretly born with the unlocked powers of a god, etc.

[FederationX]

And you have secret power hidden under secret power repeat until end of series. Seems like some shows, every new season the same character finds a way to unlock/ discover their super secret, hidden power... yet again.

Somehow we still love them (the shows) anyway.

[admanb]

Except basically every game does this. Bigger is always better.

Except in Anime, in which case it's the smallest, runtiest of the bunch that was secretly born with the unlocked powers of a god, etc.

Games, yes; reality, no. :P

[Sygerrik]

Size doesn't always matter in WM. I mean, look at the War Wolf-- 1 point, medium base, bulky as heck. Compare that to Eiryss, who's a tiny little wisp of a girl but costs 3 points. On the warjack side, Thorn costs 8 points, but the significantly bulkier Crusader costs 6.

[Lanz]

Games, yes; reality, no. :P

Odd then, that we'd be talking about a game, no?

[admanb]

Odd then, that we'd be talking about a game, no?

Hey, you brought up anime. :)

[Strange_Eric]

Except basically every game does this. Bigger is always better.


No. This is simply untrue.
The Butcher is smaller than a Heavy Warjack. He can scrap one easily. In fact I would put vegas money down that he could scrap a War Engine by himself.

But anyway. If your TO isn't allowing legal Theme Forces and Battle Engines for arbitrary reasons that don't make sense. Don't show up to their tournaments, find a different PG or TO to run a Tournament properly. Profit.

[Lanz]

Hey, you brought up anime. :)

Then what could have possibly prompted you to bring up an idea so surreal and insane as 'reality'? This is a reality-free zone, sir. There is no reality to be had here.



No. This is simply untrue.
The Butcher is smaller than a Heavy Warjack. He can scrap one easily. In fact I would put vegas money down that he could scrap a War Engine by himself.



Except in Anime, in which case it's the smallest, runtiest of the bunch that was secretly born with the unlocked powers of a god, etc.

Man with massive axe larger than himself leaping at armored military battle robots twice his size and effortlessly tearing them apart?

'nuff said.

[Strange_Eric]

Man with massive axe larger than himself leaping at armored military battle robots twice his size and effortlessly tearing them apart?

'nuff said.

This doesn't fall under "runtiest" of the bunch though. At all. Butcher is anything but a Runt. He's Medium. Not the largest, not the smallest. He fits none of the arbitrary qualifiers you've set forth :P

Unless you wanna keep moving those goal posts, then yes! :D

[The Guy]

super saiyan level 3 Stryker?

[hausdorff space]

This doesn't fall under "runtiest" of the bunch though. At all. Butcher is anything but a Runt.PErhaps he's talking about a certain fur clad hunter?

[megatron0]

super saiyan level 3 Stryker?

what does his stat card say about his focus level?

[Mantractor]

Don't get upset at me for calling a TO stupid if he/she disallows released models because of an imagined imbalance. There are things that Hordes has that Warmachine never gets, and there are things that Warmachine gets that Hordes never gets.

I mean, I don't see anyone disallowing the use of Ranking Officer's just because Cryx doesn't get one. Or because Protectorate gets like, 3.

[Lanz]

This doesn't fall under "runtiest" of the bunch though. At all. Butcher is anything but a Runt. He's Medium. Not the largest, not the smallest. He fits none of the arbitrary qualifiers you've set forth :P

Unless you wanna keep moving those goal posts, then yes! :D

Compared to the khadoran warjacks that are the only thing his sheer destructive power compares to, yes, he's runty.

Butcher: Runtiest heavy warjack in the world.

[absent]

I cant see any of our local tournaments ever disallowing models, but who knows.