Kromac, 9 Fury for what?

[Zyrael]

I spent much time playing and practicing MK I Kromac. He was much more than his one "combo" and was versatile in dangerous in the hands of the right player. Now I find him to be.... perhaps somewhat effective... but BORING.

let's run this down.

He lost every ability of both his human and beast forms... except changing forms. He gained +1 mat and +1 fury in his beast form but to what end? Did anyone ever say... "MAN I almost finished off the fight but 8 fury wasn't enough!" He's slower and less able to move through crowds. Just like 1 mat or 1 pow can make a big difference, dropping his 1 spd makes a big difference, and he's no longer a respectable assassin.

So with your 9 fury what do you do? Warp Strike!.... wait it's gone.... hmmm. Well the argus's animus is great for spamming... but that feels like a waste for a caster. Uhhhh... guess I'll change shapes when I need to clean up excess fury... then camp it.

In his human form, things aren't any rosier. After playing a full game and winning, I found myself having trouble finding worthwhile things to spend fury on. I upkept ravager on a Feral Warpwolf for 3 turns and it generated a total of one attack. Limiting this to both ONE model and making it in the BATTLEGROUP is asinine. A heavy warbeast is getting into melee with what... 2 or 3 models and has that many base attacks... does it NEED to berzerk? Put it on human form Kromac... just as squishy as ever... thats not the answer. Then on to Beastial, it no longer stops orders which was it's most used function as casters can always back out of it. It stops channeling but thats only situationally useful, vs many armies you won't have ANY need to cast this. Having pounce as a spell, and thus restricted to his human form feels ... misplaced and pointless. Why does he need to move that far except to spend fury he can't spend otherwise.

Rift is just getting lazy... is this just what's taking the place of every AoE in the game now?

Simply allowing us to take focus from warjacks (who NEVER SIT ON FOCUS) for his feat is a pointless gesture. Theres no cuddly way to word this, so let me say Kromac's feat has always and continues to show a lack of creativity in respect to game design. It's a rehash of Kaya with more limited application, and now in a new game it has even less use. Theres limited synergy with Baying of Chaos but again this only applies to 4 factions. Somethings got to give with this feat.

So after 4 turns Kromac charges in to kill a Precursor knight and opens a hole for a warpwolf to reach Siege and eat him... that was his most major contribution to the game.

Kromac is a man standing around looking for something to do. I'd rather him have 3 spells he's going to use frequently or at least cover different situations than 4 spells that have no use but to take up space. His beast form is less impressive but it's the only logical choice as the spell list is of no value anymore.

Kromac needs some major revisions. I'm going to wait till I've played with him more before I make my formal comments to PP. But here are some thoughts.


Pounce needs to be an ability
Kromac needs overtake.
Ravager has to be replaced. Perhaps a battlegroup spell. There is just NO need for berzerking on ONE battlegroup model.
His feat needs to be completely remade, start brand new. An idea:

Dominance
For one round while within Kromac's control area, models in his battlegroup gain Dark Shroud and the Terror icon.

This can play off as support or assassination. It's got uses in many situations and vs all armies. And it sounds more like the feat of a Tharn King.

[Blaque]

I'm seconding the Ravager thing. I'm going to sound like a broken record by now, but if its so bad to give berzerk to units or lots of models, give up on giving things Berzerk and let us have a more useful spell. I personally wouldn' tind something like Battlelust, Unearthly Rage or Infernal Machine myself. Something that encourages him to use more beasts (he'll need htem for beast form anyhow) and such.

I also think he needs something more in beast form. As is, it just doesn't grant enough besides raw stats and at the cost of his spells. Vlad, even with Blood of Kings eating 4 of his Focus, has options to spellcast. Kromac needs options to do magic or kill more. Since the goal seems to be kill more, le thim kill more, either by getting him where he needs to get faster (Pounce or Overtake) or options to kill better (Thresher available in either form, but obviosuly betterin Beast, is also a good idea.)

And stuff.

[nburner]

I think to remember that PP says that there will be a difference between Warmachine MKII and Hordes MkII and it is that in the second there will be only some and minor changes to the definitive drafting......in case of Kromac i think he absolutely need a change in feat: it is so absurd that i think is a mistake!
Can you say me when (if your opponent do not make mistakes..)a warjack camping some focu?.....there are really few situations........maybe Ol'Rowdy or che Chimera of Retribution (to gain more DEF) but is more, more than situational........

Now i'm not able to suggest a change but i work on it.....

My two cents

[biggiy2c]

I think Kromac makes a great second warlock in an army. With 9 fury in beast form, he'll make a lot of attacks, and boost his rolls a lot. The only way I see him as a good warlock in smaller games is if he never goes into beast form, or if he keeps black clad wayfarer around to control his beasts when he shifts.

[DonJean]

Somehow your all missing the Cryx Jacks. There are a fair number of jacks that have spare focus sitting round on them on a regular basis. Sure it's still situational but in those instances it's useful. I feel its more of an extension of options than anyting else.

[Bone(idle)jack]

i thought this too, you look at him in beast form and he has nothing to be doing. all he really does is sit on 9 fury til he reaches melee then hit's stuff.... Bland is the word i'm looking for i think.

the only way to really use him is in human form all game untill the assassination turn, change and hit stuff.

The focus part of the feat is practically useless.

Also the Beast/jack points are meant to be a balancing factor for the casters, so how does krueger get to have excellent abilities, good fury and still more points than kromac?

[GorBLiTZ]

When it comes to focus on Jacks only inexperienced players or good players that make mistakes leave focus on Jacks. So, Kromac only benefits from his feat vs WM against bad players.

[Malebolgia]

When it comes to focus on Jacks only inexperienced players or good players that make mistakes leave focus on Jacks. So, Kromac only benefits from his feat vs WM against bad players.

Right, because missing your boosted attack with a ranged attack only happens to inexperienced players :rolleyes:
Come on, unlucky dice happen to all of us and it can often lead to excess focus on a jack. I have seen it in many games...two focus (or 3 for Mules, etc.) allocated to a warjack who then misses the ranged attack. AOE's don't always deviate as you wish.

[Helion]

Even still, his feat doesn't debilitate the jack that had the extra focus unless it's ol'rowdy. The only benefit you then gain is more fury. oh, wait, you already have 2 warp wolves, an argus, a satyr, etc... to pull fury from? Too bad.

Kromac. The lock who's feat hamstrings him worse than his opponent. ;)

[Bladestorm]

Some of the cryx jacks and one cygnar jack generate focus on there own, if they have nothing to spend it on they may still be sat there.

Some of the Menoth warjacks have reactive abilities that require they spend focus out of turn.

At least one of the Retribution warjacks gains stat bonuses for keeping focus on it (and can keep it through rounds to do so)

It isn't a common case for warjacks to have focus left on them but it can happen perfectly normally in a number of ways that don't require inexperienced players or mistakes.

[NecroticDischarge]

Yeah I am goin to play test this guy extensively as I feel he is missing something. I am digging the fact that you have the option of running many heavies and they don't have to run hot as kromac can sop up a lot of the extra fury floating around and as a coven player I can tell you a 18" control area is a major boon. Also the gnarlhorns animus will really help as it gives kromacs beast form a massive threat range.

Not sure what PP is trying to change this guy. I did not see ravager coming down he pipe at all. It's precident is from a warcaster with reach and potential mat 9 P&S 18 and friggin wings. it works well for him but as noted isn't that great on mow jacks. The only real good targets for ravager are jacks with reach. Now if this was the old ravager and minus the upkeep part we would be in buisness!

[blakeh1]

I think some mechanic giving him access to Pounce in beast form would be a good way to get him back in the slaughtering business after losing Blood Thirst

Or give him Killing Spree ala Gerlak

Those would definitley make Ravager useful

As a Terminus player myself, I have never really bothered using Ravager on anything but Terminus since it is not really that focus efficient under most cases

I've seen it alluded to a few times and I am not sure where people are getting this but Ravager is NOT an upkeep. If it was it would be so much more focus efficient and actually worth using more

[Bakemono]

I used Kromac in one of my three games last night. I have to echo the thoughts of the first poster. He is a paper tiger. He gains lots of Fury but unless you can get him on an assassination run it is largely pointless. Losing the ability to prevents Orders did cancel out a lot of the value of Beastial, at least for me. That game saw me doing my best to try and get him into a fight and for all my effort his main contribution to the battle was killing a Cyclopes. Adding Focus to his Feat was an empty gesture since it will not come up often that there is Focus left on a Warjack when you can actually use it effectively. Kromac needs the ability (at least) to upkeep spells in the Beast form (just not be able to cast them). He needs another option to "Beast Out" besides just being damaged by opponents. I would suggest the normal Beast Out rules with the addition that it may be done at any time for a cost of (3) Fury. This would give him some mobility w/balance.

[DemonCalibre]

I agree with the sentiment in this thread pretty solidly.

What is the point of pounce, He can move into danger and escape, or press in for the kill, but what exactly is he killing you with, That Clutch unboosted rift? that Clutch Pow 11 melee attack at mat 6?

I am still also unsold on his Beast Form, Nine Fury is nice! but what are you buying? Power 14 Melee attacks, with an 11 inch Threat, which actually isn't that bad because of the Gharl Horns Animus giving him a little extra threat. The problem is 9 Fury power 14s may or may not be enough to win a game, and their are plenty of casters who are melee power houses that still actually do stuff to help their army.

Ravager is great spell, I have played with it a bunch with my Reds, but it's not such a great spell when none of the target models have reach, with our generally decent and our abilities to increase it, Ravager on a Furry Beast with reach would be sexy, and useful tool.

I don't know maybe I am missing something, I would totally love for DC to come on in and point out the thing we are all missing, that moves me from scratching my head to eager to test it out.

[blakeh1]

I don't know maybe I am missing something, I would totally love for DC to come on in and point out the thing we are all missing, that moves me from scratching my head to eager to test it out.

Maybe it is thinking ahead to a new Circle beast that has reach? (The Warpowolf Warrior thread comes to mind)

Of course the biggest problem with Kromac is that spells like Pounce and Ravager would actually be more useful to his beast form and are almost useless to his non beast form. Previously Bloodthrist would have filled the gap, but that is now gone.

[DaGrimOne]

His feat needs to be completely remade, start brand new.

An idea:Dominance
For one round while within Kromac's control area, models in his battlegroup gain Dark Shroud and the Terror icon.

This can play off as support or assassination. It's got uses in many situations and vs all armies. And it sounds more like the feat of a Tharn King.

Let him take up to 3 Focus from a warcaster, if they absolutely want to hold on to the old feat.

And for heaven's sake, rework that spell list :)

[blakeh1]

It's looking like Kromac will wind up like the Epic Goreshade of Circle as in "what do I do with this guy?"

[KulThass]

This thread, and Zyrael in particular, are on the money.
I read all his stats when I got my cards and was left scratching my head.
He doesn't do any of the thematic or mechanical things I expected him to.
The other Locks seem to have gotten more focused/clean while Kromac seems to have been last in line and ended up with nothing worth having.
Ineffectual in Human form b/c he's too squishy/not threatening; ineffectual in Beast b/c he can't get to his target.
I'm just hoping that there is some room for revision, b/c Kromac needs a lot of it.

[DemonCalibre]

If we want him to change, we need to test him, and provide thought out feedback, Also when you test him, have your opponent put in feed back.

Remember they mentioned that volume of feedback from different sources was one of the benchmarks to get them to take notice. This doesn't mean spam them with NERDRAGE, but it gives us an idea of how to make our feelings known.

Also and I know it's tough, but play him first before you feed back, use Sev's Notebook and keep track of things, How many times you cast bestial, how many times you cast pounce, how many turns Kromac did or did not have something intresting to do, how did you win, or how did you lose. All of this will greatly improve your feedback, and make it much more likely to be read and believed, rather then disjointed rantings about how much he sucks.

[Zyrael]

The more I think about this...

That 1" of movement makes such a big difference. It means any joker with a hand cannon is free from Kromac's retribution. Hardly scary.

Would giving him +3 to his SPD as well really break him? Could it have any conceivable abuse aside from letting him get to where he wants to be? It seems to me the ONLY reason not to implement that is then there is NO reason to use his human form...ever.

Kromac joins eKrueger and Morvahna as part of the pack I've noticed so far who are more like Fury exchange posts than casters. They are there to manipulate fury, not play an integral part in your game (especially since our Animii are now better than caster specific spells). Making the casters interchangeable and less appealing.

[callow]

my two cents about kromac less then impressed. for a caster whose obivously meant to tear stuff up it seems that privateer put a boot to his chin and knocked his azz out. i say to pp that dont be afraid to let the beast that is kromac out. spells and feat id have to agree on the completely usless. why in a game would i want a nine furry battery???

again thats just my two sents worth

[UnderWood]

If his feat let him turn into beast form when you popped it that would be fantastic.

That would make kromac a scary scary caster

I pounce here I cast ravager on myself I pop my feat I beast out gain fury and charge you killing everything rarr kromac smash.

His feat really need some work it was already a lackluster feat entirely dependent on your opponent and frankly them just changing it to steal focus of warjacks was just I don't know insulting maybe.

[wtfraven]

I like Underwoods idea of being able to turn into beast form as part of the feat.
Also i was thinking that maybe one of the new warbeasts will get an animus that is like pounce hopefully

[Arkady]

He could beat the snot out of something with 9 fury, pop his feat, and bust out some more hate with another 9 fury. That's a lot of P&S14 magic attacks.

Every animus in the Circle faction is great, so he still has those (he can run a lot of beasts very hot, with many buffs on them). It's a shame there are no ranged offensive animi, but since there will be at least two new beasts in the book, that may well change.

The only issue the Circle has as far as I can see is the Reeves are kind of lame, and some of the feats are really underwhelming (Mohsar being the worst offender).

[UnderWood]

He could beat the snot out of something with 9 fury, pop his feat, and bust out some more hate with another 9 fury. That's a lot of P&S14 magic attacks.


This is the very reason why kromacs feat is never as good as you think its going to be, it relies on your opponent heavily riling all the warbeasts.

See if your playing against a 6 fury warlock unless they just charged your army with all there warbeasts and smashed the crap out of everything you have there warbeasts will most likely be sitting on 4 maybe 5 fury total.

So while you can potentially get 9 fury I often found I had trouble even getting 8 and would usually only get 6 or less.

Kromacs feat is entirely dependant on your opponent heavily rileing for maximum effect if there playing safe and minimizing chance of frenzy which they will be even more likely to do now most warbeasts threshholds dropped your not going to get max effect out of your feat.

On top of that if kromac charges you better be damn sure thats a winning move because kromac is stuck were you charge him to which is usually in front of your opponnents army.

[Bakemono]

Eh. Kromac requires massive work to make him competitive in comparison to the other Warlocks. The only one sucking as hard as he does right now is Autumnblade. Right now he has almost zero flexibility, a strange lack of effective mobility, and almost no synergy with any model. It is kind of idiotic. My suggestions would be:

1. He can always upkeep Spells in Beast form, even though he can't normally cast them. His Beastial spell needs to regain the ability to prevent Orders.

2. "Beast Out" should allow him to change during Maintenence for free, spend (1) to do so if damaged by an enemy attack, or spend (3) to do it otherwise during his activation.

3. His Feat needs to be entirely rewritten. I think the suggestion that it should include Beasting Out for "free" once per game is a good start, with the option to immediately cut himself at that time to max out his Fury. I would also suggest that during the Feat Turn he is able to retain his ability to cast spells, be able to cast the Animus of enemy Warbeasts in his Control Area as if they were his own, and Reave the Fury of destroyed enemy Warbeasts if he is closer. Likewise, during his Feat Turn his Weapons cause "Disruption".

[magi]

It isn't a common case for warjacks to have focus left on them but it can happen perfectly normally in a number of ways that don't require inexperienced players or mistakes.

So... Kromac pops his feat and gains... 2 Fury, tops? To no detriment to his opponent? Sounds like weaksauce to me. With a 9 Fury stat in beast form, he doesn't even really need the Fury. What he needs is something offensive and mean. I liked the idea of giving his battlegroup Terror. I also like the idea of causing him to beast out. I'm thinking either an extra die to damage and Terror for his battlegroup.

Personally, I don't think Bestial is a problem. 3 fury for a spell that shuts down nodes and spellcasting in his control area? That's not too bad. At least they didn't give him Mage Blight (only affects living models, prevents spells and feats, costs 5).

I do think that Pounce is useless. It's not like he needs the extra movement with his weak spell list. I'm not going to be fretting over weather I should run him or cast spells. If it were available to him in beast form, that would be something else entirely. I say give him jump (while in beast form?) and replace Pounce with something useful. Same goes for Ravager; it's not at all useful on Kromac, let alone any of our warbeasts. Give him an infantry support spell. Something that makes you go, "Should I Beast Kromac out? I will lose the awesome upkeep for my infantry, if I do..." Give him Savagery (from Makeda's spell list). That would be characterful and mean. Or give him Manifest Destiny from eThag's spell list, a battlegroup spell, but one that would help with Fury control in human form.

[Sparfunk]

being a bit slow maybe, but ive also just noticed that kromac no longer heals 2 damage for 1 fury in beast form, so the hopes i was having of just running him with a pureblood and LOTS of tharn units have gone out the window it seems.

im going to play some games with kromac tonight, but tbh, how exciting can a 9 fury melee warlock with no spells, animi, or special attacks be?

[Rosicrucian]

The only issue the Circle has as far as I can see is the Reeves are kind of lame, and some of the feats are really underwhelming (Mohsar being the worst offender).

What don't you like about his feat? If you catch the opposing warlock you deny him from gaining any fury that turn. You also may be in position to force some advantageous frenzies. That's pretty nice. Now, it is still extremely limited vs. Warmachine I'll admit. I'd like to see it prevent allocation while in the aura too.

[Cantor]

You whiners can complain all you want. His feat has an effect on warjacks. I'm happy with that. It's better than it used to be. Period.

I'll take that extra fury and find some use for it. Maybe Kromac isn't the game ender that he used to be, but he's still potent.

[Bakemono]

You whiners can complain all you want. His feat has an effect on warjacks. I'm happy with that. It's better than it used to be. Period.

I'll take that extra fury and find some use for it. Maybe Kromac isn't the game ender that he used to be, but he's still potent.


I don't think anyone is whining. If you are happy with him, feel free to gush. My comments are based on already playing him five times. Kromac was never a "game ender" as you put it, even in MKI. He was always a better support Warlock than primary Warlock. His Feat gained nothing of value whatsoever in real applicable terms. He is all dressed up and has nowhere to go. He suffers from an amazing lack of mobility and I've yet to have him play any important role in the battles I've used him in since testing began. I'm merely pragmatic and honest. If he remains in his Field Test incarnation you will see fewer and fewer people using him and he will be absent entirely from the tournament scene beyond the Field Test period.

[Corpazious]

This is the very reason why kromacs feat is never as good as you think its going to be, it relies on your opponent heavily riling all the warbeasts.

See if your playing against a 6 fury warlock unless they just charged your army with all there warbeasts and smashed the crap out of everything you have there warbeasts will most likely be sitting on 4 maybe 5 fury total.

So while you can potentially get 9 fury I often found I had trouble even getting 8 and would usually only get 6 or less.

Kromacs feat is entirely dependant on your opponent heavily rileing for maximum effect if there playing safe and minimizing chance of frenzy which they will be even more likely to do now most warbeasts threshholds dropped your not going to get max effect out of your feat.

On top of that if kromac charges you better be damn sure thats a winning move because kromac is stuck were you charge him to which is usually in front of your opponnents army.

Ahhhhhh, reminds me of Terminus' Feat....... which did stay the same between the field test and final editing. It is AMAZING when it is pulled off, but usually I am only able to gain between 0 and 6 souls.

But chin up, they did fix Terminus in general and made him work as the Melee beatstick for Cryx that he is. Hopefully Kromac will get the editing that we all think he needs.

Just remember, keep the criticism constructive. And try not to get mad. (People don't listen to you when you're mad, whether or not you're right, trust me, I know. ;) )

[Buddhanutz]

You whiners can complain all you want. His feat has an effect on warjacks. I'm happy with that. It's better than it used to be. Period.

I'll take that extra fury and find some use for it. Maybe Kromac isn't the game ender that he used to be, but he's still potent.


That is insulting. And so close to thanks giving, shame on you. Kromac was my favorite MKI warlock. He was not broken at all, but he was really fun to play. That is what is missing. He is simply not fun anymore. He is 1 demensional with no army support of any kind. And why would you even keep him in human form anyway?

His feat stinks. Adding the focus mechanic to it did nothing especially in light of all that he lost. His spell list is crappy...Ugh. I am glad they are not letting us post feedback yet because my first feedback post would be a bit bitter; and I am not a bitter person. Lets just keep playing and taking note of what we want to change. I kepp my fingures crossed for this poor bugger.

[Rosicrucian]

I think people are overreacting on a lot of other models, but Kromac does seem pretty crummy. I'd like to see his shaman form get much better so that beast form is a cool option rather than the thing you're relying on to make him work.

[Cantor]

I don't think anyone is whining. If you are happy with him, feel free to gush. My comments are based on already playing him five times. Kromac was never a "game ender" as you put it, even in MKI. He was always a better support Warlock than primary Warlock. His Feat gained nothing of value whatsoever in real applicable terms. He is all dressed up and has nowhere to go. He suffers from an amazing lack of mobility and I've yet to have him play any important role in the battles I've used him in since testing began. I'm merely pragmatic and honest. If he remains in his Field Test incarnation you will see fewer and fewer people using him and he will be absent entirely from the tournament scene beyond the Field Test period.

Any win I had with Kromac involved clearing a charge lane and using Beast Form to whack-a-caster. Granted, his extra point of SPD made this possible most of the time. His support was pretty unreliable, IMO. Brutality was an amazing spell, and I used it for +2 MAT on a regular basis, but the Wayfarer Bomb and Wolf Rider Chain was just too unreliable with Tough and high ARM and a myriad of other things stopping the Berserk chain. Bestial was great, but his 12" CTRL allowed casters to stay outside and cast in at his models all the time.

Since when has Circle had a presence in the tournament scene? Since I've been playing this game, it's been a question of which Khador list dominates everyone else.

[ChronoCrusher]

Since Kromac is a Tharn king his feat should feel appropriate to a worshipper of the Devourer. How about....

Blood Storm

Kromac Beasts out. All friendly models in control area may charge, trample or slam without orders or forcing. All friendly models recieve +2 to damage rolls.

[MindwormJim]

Thoughts:
His spell list is rather underwhelming. However, he is still a massive beatstick, and probably deserving of only 4 beast points (I had him survive a charge from a third of a Trollblood army just because he had so many fury for transfers, and of course he ate them all next turn). I would prefer it if he had Overtake in beast-mode, so he would be a little more useful against infantry units and would have some more threat range, but he can live without it.

Make his feat able to steal focus/fury from enemy models and I won't complain about it ever again. :D

Rift is fine, just because a 4" AoE is always solid. Bestial is a different kind of spell now, but it's still very good (closest comparisons are Castigate and Lamentation), it just hurts to cast for a 6 fury caster. It's Ravager and Pounce that need help/replacing. There's little reason to cast them.

Could consider giving him Influence. I know it seems odd, but I can easily imagine Kromac using primal energy to drive his foes mad so that they lash out at whatever's near them.
Although, Wardens with Influence is GG. Hmmm

+++

Edit: After some discussion with others...

Give Kromac the Jump ability (see Ferox)
Give Kromac the Overtake ability (see White Mane) while in beast mode
Remove spell Pounce
Remove spell Ravager
Add spell Fury (see Tyrant Xerxis)
Add spell Warpath (see Epic Madrak) or Manifest Destiny (see Epic Thagrosh) or similar
Edit his feat to steal focus or fury from non-warlock enemy models

[DemonCalibre]

Personally, and this could quite probably be overpowered Dominance would be sweet if it could pull focus of Warcasters

[Elias Macale]

I like Kromac a lot in concept, so I've been experimenting with him on the table, and I have to say he's definitely lacking something. It's remarkable, because his spell list is essentially the same, except Bestial lost all of its utility and usefulness. What hurt Kromac the most was the abilities he lost while in beast form.

What bugs me is that he's not unplayable in the least. I managed to plough through a Legion army thanks to a well-timed miss of an Angelius' armor pierce attack on my Shadowhorn and then throwing typhon out of my face. I also managed to kill pKaya while Kromac was in Human form, but not before I had to use an ARGUS to finish her off (love those guys now).

His beast form is awesome. But there's no reason to be in Human form, and with no overtake or some similar ability, he has to rely on his unsupported army to clear a path for him to finish the job. It just doesn't work well. I'm not really sure what the best way to help him out would be though.

[MenothJohn]

I think that one thing we are missing as a faction community is that the basic function of Circle has changed. As I have worked through the faction so far, and maybe this is my experience as a Menoth player, I feel like a very fast version of Menoth. I am doing very well with my Circle dishing out outrageous amounts of damage and ruining other peoples armies.

Maybe this will be helpful to the group but don't bemoan what was but celebrate what is! Kromac, and a beast heavy army, will flat out massacre almost every other army out there.

You want his old wolf rider trick? Go read the rules for the White Mane...yup...its Kromacs old deal, but now it works for all the warlocks with the White Mane. Oh...and the way it works (like Crusher) has been confirmed by an Infernal.

Life is good. Relax.

[DemonCalibre]

Honest Question MenothJohn

What does Kromac offer a beast Heavy army, that one of our beast casters(Kaya1/kaya2) don't do better?

Like I said I want to like Kromac but I am scratching my head to what he is suppose to be trying to do every turn.

[Elias Macale]

I think that one thing we are missing as a faction community is that the basic function of Circle has changed. As I have worked through the faction so far, and maybe this is my experience as a Menoth player, I feel like a very fast version of Menoth. I am doing very well with my Circle dishing out outrageous amounts of damage and ruining other peoples armies.

Maybe this will be helpful to the group but don't bemoan what was but celebrate what is! Kromac, and a beast heavy army, will flat out massacre almost every other army out there.

You want his old wolf rider trick? Go read the rules for the White Mane...yup...its Kromacs old deal, but now it works for all the warlocks with the White Mane. Oh...and the way it works (like Crusher) has been confirmed by an Infernal.

Life is good. Relax.

I'm not convinced. I'm not asking for the wolf rider trick back, because that was stupid. And no, the White Mane doesn't really do that either, though he's a solid solo in my opinion.

What bothers me is that Kromac is essentially just a big fury battery. His feat is only good for denying your opponent fury on their next turn (If you can't kill something in melee with 9 fury, your dice hate you). Bestial is pointless, because except for shutting down spellcasting solos and units (or you could just kill them) and if the enemy warlock or caster is within 12" of Kromac, you're either winning or losing horribly.

Pounce has it's uses, but by and large is nothing special and would be more useful as an ability. Ravager is almost completely useless because none of our beasts have reach. Rift can be situationally useful, but costs a fair deal of fury.

So why even use his human form? His beast form is marginally more useful for its high fury stat. So we can cast animi, run a bunch of beasts, and camp fury for transfers. Does this strike anyone else as incredibly one-dimensional and boring? This is why Kromac needs an improvement. Not because he's bad, but because he's poorly designed and just not fun to use.

[Lex Icon]

I see no reason for Human Form with Kromac any more. His spell list is the weakest one of all our Warlocks, so it's not that hard to give up. Even eKrueger can cast Wind Blown.

I can see him working decently ok by spamming furry animi. I think he'll like the new Satyrs. I expect a Gorax an Argus and one of each Satyr will give him something to do with his FURY.

I think an 18" control area all the time might make him support Satyrs well, who like to jump and bound really far away under their own animi. That's still not that exciting.

I think they have to fix Ravager and his feat for him to feel right. It's very strange that he offers the Tharn units less than any other Warlock. I thought he'd support them more under the new edition...

he should also get +1 POW, since he still hits like a little girl. He even lost his chain attack. They changed Reznik from jack support into a beatstick. I'd like to see Kromac get the same treatment if he's going to lose his one good spell.

I also think he should have more than +4 beast points. He could use the boost, and it seems thematic that he would have high beast points.

Oh, and I actually like the change to Bestial. When it was 4 Fury, it was really too expensive to cast. Now it has one use- no arc node assassinations, period. Against Cryx, it's now actually useful.

[DemonCalibre]

The thing is Lex, the no arc node assassination isn't as big a deal as it use to be, why? because all the hardcore spell assassins got changed so they have a much harder time doing it.

[Lex Icon]

The thing is Lex, the no arc node assassination isn't as big a deal as it use to be, why? because all the hardcore spell assassins got changed so they have a much harder time doing it.

You might be right. I haven't looked at MK 2 Cryx really. But I do know that I never, ever cast the spell in MK 1 because it cost 4. Leaving one of the most fragile warlocks in the game with only 1 fury anywhere near the front line is how you lose games. And if you weren't near the front line there was no reason to cast the spell.

I still count it as an upgrade. The no orders thing was nice, but not worth the risk.

[DemonCalibre]

I can totally see it an upgrade, I also never cast MK1 Beastial much not so much due to it's cost, it was dude to the fact it was an aura, and with MK1 threat ranges, Kromac had to be waaaay to close to actually prevent charges.

Even with it being an upgrade it's still an exceptionally situational spell.

[Lex Icon]

I can totally see it an upgrade, I also never cast MK1 Beastial much not so much due to it's cost, it was dude to the fact it was an aura, and with MK1 threat ranges, Kromac had to be waaaay to close to actually prevent charges.

Even with it being an upgrade it's still an exceptionally situational spell.

Agreed. I was a bit pleased to see SOMETHING change for the better on my favorite sculpt, though.

They really should have changed his feat, at a minimum. I think we all knew that Brutality was going to take a hit, but he could have also grown in other ways to compensate. I hate playing the game without a feat. Feats are fun!

I still hope they change the feat after play test. Also, ARM 14 and POW 11 still don't seem right for our only melee-based Warlock.

[Elias Macale]

I think +1 Base armor and POW on his weapons would be reasonable. After all, he is still susceptible to armor piercing, which, though rare, is prevalent in many of the strongest MKII builds.

His feat definitely needs desperate help too. It barely works against hordes, much less WM.

[Rosicrucian]

I think +1 Base armor and POW on his weapons would be reasonable. After all, he is still susceptible to armor piercing, which, though rare, is prevalent in many of the strongest MKII builds.

His feat definitely needs desperate help too. It barely works against hordes, much less WM.

I don't know. I'd like to see his shaman form become more fun and worthwhile rather than just giving him something that makes me MORE likely to just run around in Beast Form constantly. Beast form would be great if it wasn't the only thing he had going for him. As a complete shot in the dark, what if his shaman form had Signs and Portents or Incite or something along those lines? Something like that would make picking a form much more interesting.

[Lex Icon]

I think +1 Base armor and POW on his weapons would be reasonable. After all, he is still susceptible to armor piercing, which, though rare, is prevalent in many of the strongest MKII builds.

His feat definitely needs desperate help too. It barely works against hordes, much less WM.

did... did you just agree with me?

It's true that without any access to offensive animi, Kromac's feat actually has fewer applications than ever. The old Warp Strike wasn't that great by itself, but it could really surprise Hordes players to have 4 boosted pow 13's come at them from Kromac, and another one from the Pureblood. I've assassinated that way before. I also miss double boosted warp strikes coming from my bone grinders. I won at least 2 games that way.

[Buddhanutz]

I got the fix for kromac. Change his feat to "All friendly warrior models in this model's control area gain beserk." I know it is not broken enough :p So how about this "All friendly warrior models turn into Alten Ashely for one turn." Darn, still not usefull agianst Warmachine. I can now see why PP has so much problems with his feat;)

[Lex Icon]

I got the fix for kromac. Change his feat to "All friendly warrior models in this model's control area gain beserk." I know it is not broken enough :p So how about this "All friendly warrior models turn into Alten Ashely for one turn." Darn, still not usefull agianst Warmachine. I can now see why PP has so much problems with his feat;)

Have you ever played Kromac or Circle? This is the most trollish post I've seen yet.

[UnderWood]

I don't know why the big angry melee warlock we have who is unique for being really big and angry and gets so angry that he turns into a monster and can no longer cast spells has absolutely no way of making our army do more damage.

You know what spell would be awesome for shaman kromac

FURY
or
BATTLE LUST
or maybe
CARNAGE
INCITE
UNNATURAL AGGRESSION

You know a spell that makes you go man that kromac guy is very angry he makes other stuff angry his army is scary.

On a side note I realized that with thresholds across the board being lowered this means that people are going to be even more careful with there fury making sure not to leave even one extra fury on anything. So Kromacs feat actually got a slight nerf vs hordes as there is a higher chance of less fury being around.

Hell its not like kromac feat usually hindered your opponent in any way it often opened transfer targets or stopped a overleaded warbeast from frenzying and then they just cut themselves back to full fury anyway.

[Elias Macale]

I think any of the spells Underwood mentioned would be great additions or replacements for Kromacs spell list. Fury has already shown up in Hordes on Xerxis, so I don't think it would be unprecedented. Battle Lust seems to be pretty signature of Khador, but you wouldn't get any complaints from me there.

So maybe we can come to a consensus and consolidate some feedback?

1.Feat needs to be totally retooled. There were some suggestions earlier, but I'm not sure how workable or realistic some of them were.

2. Ravager needs to be removed or replaced.

3. Pounce needs to be replaced, possibly given to Kromac as Bounding Leap

4. Bestial? Maybe a return of the old -2 CMD but leave it the same cost would be reasonable?

5. Beast form is good, but overtake or chain attack: bloodbath would help with dealing with infantry.

Any other thoughts?

[Buddhanutz]

Have you ever played Kromac or Circle? This is the most trollish post I've seen yet.

Nope, never played them at all.:p

Just in case you did not detect it, there is sarcasm in this post as well as the previous post.

[Bakemono]

Nope, never played them at all.:p

Just in case you did not detect it, there is sarcasm in this post as well as the previous post.


It is a good thing you pointed it out. We wouldn't have detected it. Sarcasm requires at least some wit. Your posts didn't demonstrate any, and thus do not qualify for sarcasm. Do you have anything of value to add to the conversation, or are you just here trolling?

[ArchonXVI]

The problem is that he's a melee monster made of tinfoil and dreams. The moment he tries to do anything, he'll simply melt, so he has to stay away... rendering him nothing but a fury battery. The best fury battery in the game, but that only goes so far.

In my opinion, whatever we think of should probably go towards fixing that first and foremost, then we can tidy up his human form to make it worthwhile.

Battle hardened was my first thought- +2 ARM while in melee. It's not much, but it's something. Perhaps on getting hit, he can spend a fury to push the opponent away an inch? It uses some of that massive volume of fury, and it also allows him to sit on the front lines.

Human form... good luck with that.

[Rosicrucian]

4. Bestial? Maybe a return of the old -2 CMD but leave it the same cost would be reasonable?

Not going to happen. Minus command effects are pretty much verboten with the changes to unit coherency. "Cannot give or receive orders" might be possible though.

I like pounce as a short teleport that doesn't end your activation. I'd rather see bestial and ravager change first.

[YabaBaga]

I think two spells that would be good for Kromac would be either Savagery from Makeda or Flesh Eater from eThagrosh. The first would give him some army-support ability and the latter would give him and his beasts added survivability. Alternately, I could see giving him the Life Drinker ability from the gators; I want to be able to charge fearlessly into packs of infantry. :)

I think these changes fit with his character and give him some fun interactions.

[W0lf]

Guys ill leave it in your hands but please please please make sure Kromac rocks.

If he does ill have to start a small circle army as hes by fav my fav lock/caster on the game after Rhyas :P

[Elias Macale]

Not going to happen. Minus command effects are pretty much verboten with the changes to unit coherency. "Cannot give or receive orders" might be possible though.

I like pounce as a short teleport that doesn't end your activation. I'd rather see bestial and ravager change first.

Hmmm, that's true, but given the uproar about Rebuke, "Cannot give or receive orders" seems like it might be a long shot. It's worth suggesting though.

We've got a lot of good suggestions to replace ravager, and PP has options. Personally, I think a spell specifically for beasts is the best option, whether it be battlegroup, or just a single target spell, just because Ravager already only works on beasts, so it seems like it'd be appropriate.

[Buddhanutz]

It is a good thing you pointed it out. We wouldn't have detected it. Sarcasm requires at least some wit. Your posts didn't demonstrate any, and thus do not qualify for sarcasm. Do you have anything of value to add to the conversation, or are you just here trolling?

There is no need to take pot shots. Keep it civil. Typically people can read emotions and intent, though somewhat difficult for some, from emoticons.

I have contributed numerous valuable post. If I make one or two that are not valuable oh terds, can't help you there.

[Buddhanutz]

My apologies. I went back and reviewed my posts and they were quite trollish. My bad. Certainly not my intent.

[Corevak]

I just got a game off with Kromac last Saturday and I do think he could use some improvement he did good though.

The spell Rift took out about 5 to 6 Monoth holy had grenadiers, I like this spell a lot and I even forgot to account for the rough terrain that it leaves behind.

Pounce has its uses and the facted that you can use it at any time during his activation is nice to get him out of harms way.

I never used it in this game but I can see some uses for Bestial. As Kromac tends to get close it has a nice late game use.

I think Ravager is one of the areas where he needs the most change this spell seem useless to me. I cant think of a single beast to put it on where it would be effective. If I want to take out large numbers of infantry then I have units that can do that. It is common knowledge that you don't normally get a beast into melee with more that three models at the most, Unless they did a CMA on you.

He's feet is the other area that needs attention. most Jacks in the game don't keep focus on them, I could problem count the number of jacks that do on one hand. making it so he can take focus off of jacks does not make this an effective feat vs warmachine.

[Macguffin]

I would love to see Kromac's feat be something like: Kromac gains 1 fury for each enemy model killed in his control range. (It is like gaining corpse tokens so is akin to ravager abilities.)

Can we please get pounce as an ability in both forms and some decent spells replacing pounce and ravager...

[LEJKaya]

Pounce as an ability would be nice, if he's to be just a beatstick then the old White Mane version would be best I think.
If he is to have a role, anything he's supposed to do then either the 'Spend a fury to move 1" after killing something' or just get overtake so he can mow down infantry like he used to.

This probably isn't what we need but I always wanted him to have Powerful Charge for his 2 Tharn Axes.

His offensive spell is ok. Bestial is ok though expensive now, maybe it should be an upkeep.

[Corevak]

I would not wont Pounce to be an ability, if it was it would most likely become Jump and that only works after advancing but before an attack. You could no longer use it to get out of some place after attacking.

[Elias Macale]

What are you attacking? Casting Rift is the only reason you should be doing anything of the sort, and even then that's situational. And if you boosted the hit or damage, you're out of fury with Pounce. Kromac's beast form needs the ability way more than his Human form, and I'd gladly give up a bit of flexibility to make that happen.

[Corevak]

I'm not sure how much I would like him having an ability like that in beast form. I'll have to do some thinking about this. The emedant thing that comes to mind is that he would act a little like the Shadow horn and that would be cool. But it also might be to powerful. advance forward 6" leap 5" get 2 initial attacks at a p+s 14 with 8 more if you only pay 1 fury for the leap. At a MAT 9 that is powerful maybe to much.

[Zyrael]

He needs a battlegroup spell to replace ravager. I've decided this. Full Throttle might be close to what he needs. I'd prefer extended threat range on his beasts to simple boosted attack rolls.. either way it would have to be renamed as Full Throttle makes no sense in Hordes.

A radical new idea for Kromac's feat.

The Offering

Kromac is more than a king among Tharn, he is an avatar of the Devourer. All who praise the Wurm must pay homage to his chosen. The beasts under his command feel compelled to pile the decimated dead at Kromac's feet.

Every time a model in Kromac's battlegroup kill an enemy model this turn, place one Carrion Token on Kromac the Ravenous. After all models have activated this turn, Carrion Token's may be spent as follows.

- Spend a Carrion Token and one model in Kromac's battlegroup may make a full advance. No model can advance more than once as a result of carrion tokens.

- Spend a Carrion Token to make a model in Kromac's battlegroup make a normal melee attack.

- Kromac may spend a Carrion Token to immediately change forms.

- Kromac may spend unspent Fury as if it were a Carrion Token during this turn.

so what do y'all think/

[KulThass]

Zyrael, I like The Offering, but it isn't really in line with other feats in the circle. I definitely like the flavor, but the mechanics are a bit clunky, as written.
Definitely something to be considered, though.
As far as spells/abilities, I would really like to see Rapid Healing back on the model. I found it flavorful, but I don't know if it would be OP in the current format.
Perhaps healing could be the other side of his feat? A seperate feat for each form would allow for a lot of interesting gameplay. Giving Kromac a feat that is good for more than just assassination attempts would make him a wee bit more flexible...
I'd just like the model to mirror the fact that he has two vastly different forms. One is a somewhat reasonable shaman, controlling his warbeasts and surveying the battlefield; one IS a warbeast, churning up opposition in his path like so much meat.

[DemonCalibre]

Honestly Zyrael the offering seems like a watered down version of Feel the Hate.

Honestly as a Feat, I like the idea of Dominance, it just needs to strip warcasters of their focus.

[Rosicrucian]

He needs a battlegroup spell to replace ravager. I've decided this. Full Throttle might be close to what he needs. I'd prefer extended threat range on his beasts to simple boosted attack rolls.. either way it would have to be renamed as Full Throttle makes no sense in Hordes.

Maybe Mobility? +2 movement and pathfinder to the battlegroup for 2 fury.

[Blaque]

Maybe Mobility? +2 movement and pathfinder to the battlegroup for 2 fury.
That's actually not all that great for Cirlce since we have a lot of beasts already with Pathfinder or Ghostly and we have the fastest beasts in the game on average save for Legion.

I personally like the ideas of Incite, Wild Aggression or Fury myself. Pretty much as it is though, Ravager is probably the worst such spell that could of been had, and any hopes of getting Berzerk out of Kromac at htis point I think should be dashed before we get to begging for it.

I think giving both forms Overtake or an optional Thresher attack would work. I think the current way Alterante Form is worded is there to keep Kromac on one card. As such, anything besides what's there needs to be soemthing both forms use I think. Overtake, while not great on his human form, would be neat. And same with Thresher. And then having him be able to use either in his beast form better would be A OK and allow his human form to do some more. Though I do agree in either case, +1 ARM/STR would be needed.

I do like the idea of giving him Flesh Eater. I would be pretty behind that personally.

And stuff.

[Buddhanutz]

Yeah, I 2nd that mobility would not be that useful for Circle giving that we have tracker and a lot of ways to gain additional movement. Suffice to say that mobility is better that his current spell, so good sugestion.

I would prefer a fury multiplyer that adds additional damage dice to his battle group. I know that a spell like that must exist already, but Cygnar does not have it, so I don't know it.

[Blaque]

Kharchev has a spell called Unearthly Rage which boosts all attack and damage rolls for models in his battlegroup and in his CTRL area. Needless to say, such a spell with Kromac and warbeasts would be a tad bit overkill I think as a force-multiplier. However, a Jackhammer spell for damage instead of accuracy would be neat (Call that Brutality and be done with it.)

There was a spell in the WM FT called Warmonger which was pretty neat, but I frankly doubt its goign to come back as the Butcher got Ravager to replace it.

And stuff.

[DemonCalibre]

Butcher got full throttle to replace it.

And the reason it was replaced was an effort to try to make Orsus less of a Ranged Caster(Warmonger was awesome on ranged and kind of yawn worthy on hand to hand)

The problem with Warmonger/FullThrottle, for hordes, is that it is a *massive* fury multiplier, compared to their Warmachine equalvant, even in a situation where you don't run hot, You get 5-7 fury worth of boosting every turn. From Full Throttle alone on a FWW, you would get 1 Fury from the free charge, 3 free fury from the 3 attacks, 4 fury from boosted hit rolls on follow up attacks = 7 fury multiplier from one beast, stack that with a Gnarlhorn which you don't redline, but only push to 3(so you can leach 7) and you have 13 Fury from Full Throttles 3, that is a massive amount, and totally reasonable in a force. Consider the amount of push Orsus could get from two heavies even 3 attack ones(Say the Kodiak) the max multiplier he can get from two heavies is 11, they are also much slower the hours and lack the buffs we can provide(Bounding, Tracker, Primal)

[Buddhanutz]

However, a Jackhammer spell for damage instead of accuracy would be neat (Call that Brutality and be done with it.)


And stuff.


Good point about Warmachine focus multiplying spells being a bit overkill on beast. And to the above, do you mean the old or new Jackhammer. If you mean the old that would work. They changed the new Jackhammer to what the old manual control was, Warjack within 6 inches immeadietly makes one mellee attack. That would be pretty dangerous to pull off, and possibly not worth it. Then agian it is better than his current spell --I am getting tired of saying that all of the time:(

[Asheru]

I played the other day against eThagrosh VS Kromac and thanks to the Blackclad Wayfairer was able to kick the tar out of him with all 9 Fury on the charge. Kromac did lose some of his threat as a melee the living crap out of you caster but if played correctly with the right combo and setup can still be an extremely effective caster.

[Blackraine]

Somehow your all missing the Cryx Jacks. There are a fair number of jacks that have spare focus sitting round on them on a regular basis. Sure it's still situational but in those instances it's useful. I feel its more of an extension of options than anyting else.

Actually, there are two... the Seether and the Deathjack, one of which is Unique. And if the Cryx player sees you throw Kromac down on the table, you can be rest assured he'll be spending that focus on something, even if it's only to run to a spot 3" away.

[Blackraine]

Some of the Menoth warjacks have reactive abilities that require they spend focus out of turn.


A minor point, but the ONE Menoth 'jack that had this lost it in Mk. II, and was every Menoth player's second favorite 'jack to hate in Mk. I (the favorite being the Vanquisher, and the 3rd Favorite being the Repenter).

[Cantor]

One thing I keeps coming to mind when I think about this field test. Privateer has assured us that every model has a role. Those roles may not be what they were in MkI, but everything fills a niche.
I'm totally at a loss to explain Kromac's niche. He's not a beast caster, since he has no battlegroup spells. He's not an infantry caster, since he has only one pretty mediocre unit spell.

I guess he could be a beatstick. He's got MAT 9, P+S 14 and 9 fury to buy and boost with, but without free movement or some other special rules that seems pretty lackluster. Look at the Butcher for comparison. He's MAT 9 P+S 16 and a weapon master. Also, he can buff his own damage. That's how you build a beatstick.
To bring it back to a HORDES comparison, what about Thagrosh. He's MAT 7, P+S 16, 7 FURY and he can buff his STR.
I think these comparisons mean that if Kromac is meant to be a beatstick, he's a far cry from competitive.

He's no assassin, without the mobility in Beast Form.

What's left?

[Rosicrucian]

I keep hearing that Kromac has no mobility. He does have access to Hunter's Mark and Bounding for a 15" threat. I know it's no leap but that's pretty good threat for a warlock as scary in melee as Kromac.

I actually think Kromac is pretty potent in Beast form, He's just really, really boring. My concerns relate more to his lopsided feat and the underwhelming spell list of his human form. Having a quality spell list is key because that's the only reason to be in human form.

[Sevwall]

He has leap in a form that should not be attempting to kill your caster.

He is pretty poor in melee as a human dude.

[Elias Macale]

He has leap in a form that should not be attempting to kill your caster.

He is pretty poor in melee as a human dude.

Yeah, I saw this firsthand when I had to make a desperate attempt to assassinate Kaya with human form Kromac. He was so pathetic that I had to have an ARGUS charge and (with an admittedly lucky to-hit roll) finish her off.

I think I mentioned this story before, but it stands out to me as an example of why his Human form does not need Pounce.

[Bakemono]

I posted this earlier in the thread but I think I will repeat it as from test games (including some where we proxied these rules in) Kromac became functional and competitive without becoming broken:

Eh. Kromac requires massive work to make him competitive in comparison to the other Warlocks. The only one sucking as hard as he does right now is Autumnblade. Right now he has almost zero flexibility, a strange lack of effective mobility, and almost no synergy with any model. It is kind of idiotic. My suggestions would be:

1. He can always upkeep Spells in Beast form, even though he can't normally cast them. His Beastial spell needs to regain the ability to prevent Orders.

2. "Beast Out" should allow him to change during Maintenence for free, spend (1) to do so if damaged by an enemy attack, or spend (3) to do it otherwise during his activation.

3. His Feat needs to be entirely rewritten. I think the suggestion that it should include Beasting Out for "free" once per game is a good start, with the option to immediately cut himself at that time to max out his Fury. I would also suggest that during the Feat Turn he is able to retain his ability to cast spells, be able to cast the Animus of enemy Warbeasts in his Control Area as if they were his own, and Reave the Fury of destroyed enemy Warbeasts if he is closer. Likewise, during his Feat Turn his Weapons cause "Disruption".

[Dizzy]

Why not just reimagine dominance in a way thats more consistent?


Dominance: Enemy models in Kromacs control area loose all Focus and Fury points, enemy warjacks in Kromacs control area are disrupted, enemy warbeasts in Kromacs control area must make a threshold check in their controllers next control phase.

The essence of Dominance remains, cowing the opposition but the leaching to power yourself aspect has been replaced by a more consistent application.

I think changing Kromacs feat to something more appliccable in more games like the above, changing Pounce to an innate Leap, Ravager to Battle Lust, Bestial to cost 2 Upkeep and making him 3pts gives Kromac a great niche, he adds a lot to your army in either form, his beast form needing 9 Fury means you'll be taking beasts anyway and the usefulness of his spells means you'll actually have to decide between beast or human form where you don't now. Also IMO its more flavourful to have him being the support commander warcaster but the beast form still having an excellent shot at the kill.

[CaptC]

Long time lurker, decloaking because I've been investigating Kromac. A friend of mine just gave me a fully painted model for an early Christmas gift. Two thoughts on Ravager:

I'm looking forward to using Ravager on a Feral Warpwolf or other heavy, just before the heavy tramples through an infantry screen to reach something tasty behind it. For every infantry model you kill on the way, you get a free swing at your real target. If that doesn't kill the target, well, you still have an angry Warpwolf who's only used one fury standing right there...

Defensively, Ravager is a reasonably nice combo with Vigilance. You have the potential to kill two enemy models with a bodyguard.

Suggestions:

The subtle way to jack up Kromac is to give him more interesting animi to work with. For example: Make the Feral Warpwolf's animi work on 'jacks. It does nothing to the play balance of the warpwolf, except in a Kromac list versus Warmachine. Kromac would use the Warpwolf animi to push focus onto enemy 'jacks in 8" and then leach it all back as fury. You know, the same thing he can do to opposing Hordes players. Given that, Kromac has a worthy feat against Warmachine.

I'm fine with pounce only working in human form, if Kromac was more like a warbeast while he was in beast form. That's the flavor I want: a ravening Kromac turns into an actual warbeast. But that's going to be quite hard to balance and test, I think. So just give him the ability to make a power attack when he's in beast form, at the usual cost of one fury and his normal combat attacks.

"Almost a Beast: While in beastform, Kromac may spend one fury point to make a single power attack, as if Kromac was a heavy warbeast."

This fixes part the beastform's problem with getting to the opponent. Having access to trample means infantry screens don't work anymore. It doesn't solve the weak human mode, but I'll leave that up to better heads than I.

[Mavwick]

I'm looking forward to using Ravager on a Feral Warpwolf or other heavy, just before the heavy tramples through an infantry screen to reach something tasty behind it. For every infantry model you kill on the way, you get a free swing at your real target. If that doesn't kill the target, well, you still have an angry Warpwolf who's only used one fury standing right there...

I know there was the question of this in Mk-I and Cryx has that option in Mk-II, but I don't know if it was ever ruled on as correct in either game. It's the difference between it being waaaay too good or neigh-useless.

If he's just going to be a plain beatstick in his turn, why can't he have Overtake or Heart Taker?

I want Kromac to support his Tharn, somehow. I don't get how the Tharn Chieftain isn't much of a team player. Any number of Khadoran offensive spells would seem his bag, but they just don't hand those out. Just scanning some WM cards:
-Fury or Battle Lust would fit, but Hordes factions just don't seem to get advantages like that too often. -Transference (eVlad) would be amazing for a warlock Chieftain.
-Artifice of Deviation or Veil of Mists would fit that sort of "hunter" feeling, concealing yourself before springing on the prey or making it easier to get to the prey.
-Calamity feels about right. Still needs attack rolls. Kind of "marks the prey."

His feat needs a lot of work. It barely works against Warmachine. It was always a bit too much like Kaya's feat, so I'd prefer something new. I thought of something that would fit his primal nature:
Primal Scream
Enemy models in Kromac's Control area this round suffer -2 CMD. At the end of Kromac's activation, all enemy warrior models in his Control area take a Command check.

YES, -2CMD is powerful in Mk-II. It's a feat. Enemies are cowering in fear and cluster closer to their leaders. Battle lines are shaken and looking to leadership. Lots of enemy models could be locked down for a turn in "flee" mode, but we all know in Mk-II that tends to involve staying vaguely where you are that turn and not doing much. A bunch of Mk-II feats do that to infantry. Something that menacing fits Kromac.

[benthesculptor]

I wouldnt wipe my a$$ with his spell list! Was that constructive? Maybe not but it sure felt good to say! LOL!

[odinsgrandson]

You know, if his feat only let him leach focus off of all of the warbeasts in his control area (instead of only enemy warbeasts) then it would work fine against both warmachine and hordes.

I mean, it would require some planning, but it would be effective.

[Yertle4]

Homicidal maniac - beast form

[DemonCalibre]

The problem with that Odinsgrandson, is it effectually becomes a better version of Kaya1's Feat. Which is also nasty, because Kromac is much more dangerous personally, then Kaya is.

[Runesong]

I'm looking forward to using Ravager on a Feral Warpwolf or other heavy, just before the heavy tramples through an infantry screen to reach something tasty behind it. For every infantry model you kill on the way, you get a free swing at your real target. If that doesn't kill the target, well, you still have an angry Warpwolf who's only used one fury standing right there...


It would be awesome if it worked that way, and just flat out reading the rules, it sounds like it technically should, but I sort of doubt that will stand.

Trample specifically says you make the melee attack rolls after completing your movement. Berserk says that when something dies to a melee attack, it generates a Berserk attack against something within range, so the attack would be generated when the trampler is at its end location, because the movement finished before the attacks. That's actually really nasty.

Something else that occurs to me is that the Ravager text describing the effects of berserk does not specify that the model destroyed has to be an enemy model . . . so you could potentially line up a row of your own squishies (say, like the bloodtrackers) in order to sacrifice them for the extra hits against the end target.

Oooh. That would be nasty.

[LEJKaya]

I mentioned this earlier (in this thread I think) it worked that way in MkI I see no changes.

[zulu81]

Give him Weapon Master. Then his role as beat stick caster will be confirmed.

[CaptC]

I don't think there's anything "technical" about my interpretation of trample + Ravager. The rules, as written, are pretty clear it works that way. PP might decide it's OP and change it, but I think ravager fits Kromac, fits the Circle, and fits the MkII direction. (In fact, see below: I think they haven't used Ravager enough.)

One complaint about Ravager is that Circle doesn't have much with reach. But we got lots of heavies with big trample ranges. So ravager fits the faction. I hadn't thought of your suggestion to sacrifice squishies for swings at a target, but that, too, fits the Circle philosophy. (Manikins!)

What was it that Kromac did to infantry forces? Brutality and send out the wolf riders, right? Well, with Ravager, he's still mighty powerful against infantry lists, but he needs to bring heavies (beasts) instead of troops (riders). In other words, Ravager gives Kromac similar capabilities, but in a way that fits with the MKII direction.

Finally, tramples are harder to line up, especially with the changes to the formation rules. So ravager is not the easy button Brutality was. That also fits in with the MkII direction.

I think fixing Kromac's spell list can be handled with a minimal change. Ravager is the answer again. Just make it affect "friendly Circle model". Be more restrictive if you like, make it "friendly Tharn grunt model or member of battlegroup". There's your Tharn support spell. If PP fears rekindling the Brutality mini-feat, I think there are several reasons that won't be the case:

- You only get Ravager on a model, not a unit.
- Savvy opponents using the formation rules can keep unit effectiveness while denying you continuous lines of closely spaced troopers.

I'd love to see the spell useful for Whitemane or the Lord of the Feast, though. (Raven LotF into the middle of an enemy infantry unit with ravager and thresher? Ouchies!)

[Achiles]

He really needs to lose Pounce as a spell. It is completely useless. Give him Bounding Leap instead and a beast buffing spell like Forced Evolution instead. Ravager isn't bad spell he just doesn't have a good target for it. If they give us a Warpwolf Warrior with a reach weapon he will have a perfect target for it. (This might also eventually lead to us finally getting our large-based Warpwolf Warlock!) I just looked at his axes and they are POW5 while every other warlock weapon in Circle is POW6, even Kaya's stick! I definately support giving his weapons +1 POW and his human form +1 STR. He is beefy enough that he should clear and away be our hardest hitting warlock in beast form and atleast our second hardest hitting in human form.

[Mutton]

A trample only gets you a single Berserk attack I believe; there was a ruling on for eButcher I think.

[CaptC]

>> He really needs to lose Pounce as a spell. It is completely useless.

Well, if you are thinking of 'spell to get me in melee range', you are correct. It doesn't help that the connotations of the word 'pounce' indicate it should be used that way.

But as a spell per se, it's far from useless.

- Move forward with Kromac, drop a ravager on the friendly beast that needs it, use pounce to retreat behind your infantry screen.
- While moving forward with a pack of running beasts, cast pounce to keep up.
- Chase down that annoying caster who doesn't know they've lost and is running around the board sniping. (Darn Cygnar.)
- When you're losing and want to see if you can induce a mistake, it's 5" of extra movement that doesn't cost you much because beast-out will get you back into Beastform. (Yeah, I run and snipe sometimes too. :)

Pounce is an option for fixing the beastform's seemingly slow movement, and it feels right, but calling the spell useless is a touch exaggerated.