The Butcher's Rain of Caster Death

[Kevin B]

I thought I would post this here but I have really fallen in love with the combo of pButcher and the Devastator.

The Devastator is soo tough he can be the point of the spear to take the hit ready for the counter but the sweetest bit if you can pull it off is to bullboze to the heart of the enemy army or next to the caster and use rain of death on the pBucher's feat turn.

Played a game last night and killed 6 bloodgorgers and 70% of a Deathjack ready for my iron fangs to finish off during the feat turn.

The combo is just so nice I cant even begin to explain the warm fuzzy feeling I get when I get to use it and the look on peoples faces when you expalin that the models in base to base are auto hit at power 18 plus 3 dice and all within 3" on power 9 and 3 dice without any focus used. Its just so demoralising to the other side to see the carnage if played right then the follow up with the rest of the army on the feat bonus as well.

Thought Id share my views on this piece of red gold form the motherland.

[Avecrien]

I love Devs. I recently bought my 2nd because I'd always wanted to field a pair for the fun of it. Just be careful about them being slammed and thrown by the enemy instead of you to get them into position.

[pinkpantie]

I guess you don't face a lot of Legion, or Circle players. They eat your heart out and disappear into thin air. Devs are so slow and die after they did their boogie-man turn. Following your description your opponents did not know the model, right? Play them again and see how it works.
Don't wanna rain on your parade but I think a Jugger or esp. Kodiak suits the Butcher far better.
But I guess as long as you have fun for the Motherland... ;)

[jack frost]

hey get outta here... sure its easy to pop the dev if you focus on it, but he did have a butcher army right behind it....I'm sure you aren't aware but butcher armies are badass now.

[Aries37]

The devvy is actually really good. The key is to not attack and just drive straight for their caster bulldozing all the stuff in the way, and periodically using your army to clean the spam that congregates around it.

[pinkpantie]

Did you hear of a guy called Kromac (who sadly wrecks Butcher in one turn and has a greater threat range) or the infamous Kaya Yo-Yo? I am planning on testing the Butcher more often (as I play both Circle and Kador), but having this slow moving force will not get me anywhere, any Angelius or Warpwolv will eat this Dev bugger in one turn and you will have a hard time to retaliate after the attacker got ported away. But I guess this is Khadors old problem and we will just have to deal with it. ;)

[Kommissar Golovko]

Are you serious in your allegations or just trolling? What's the Angelus with a single AP attack going to do against Arm 25? Fine 2+3D6 if it forces for the first attack. Then what? Even the FWW with PS19 at best ain't going to do much.

And what's Kromac going to do against a fully camped pButcher (14 Def, Arm 24) or an Iron Fleshed one (Def 17, Arm 21), even if he feats? 2 base attacks at PS14? You better kill Butcher because he's dead beast walking already that turn. The Yo Yo is a more valid threat but only if one exposes Butcher.

[Pat Thompson]

I play Kromac & Kaya in Circle and am loving the changes to Kromac in the FT however my money's always going to be on Butcher in a one-v-one!
As for the Devvy, I wouldn't be too worried about an Angelus. A buffed up FWW is a problem but more so for throwing the Devvy out of position rather than scrapping it.

[pinkpantie]

No attempt to troll here at all, rather serious grief!

I had the Kaya YoYo in mind as I ate of Karchevs 3 Jacks with it at one tourney, so it was just my hurt feelings writing this.
You may be right about the Angelius not being able to do much, I did not play against Legion for a long time but remembered that he can shoot and will always be able to avoid the point of contact as long as he wants to.

One vs one Kromac and Butcher I would bet my money on the Butcher as well, but assuming that he will have to camp a serious amount of Focus to survive just feels not like comparing them in game. As Butcher will spend Focus but Kromac gets them. I think a game of those two beasts would be a lot of fun but in a whole game I think Kromac out-threats Butcher. If, however, they are the last models standing... Kromac would be a bloody pulp!

My vote for the Kodiak results in his pathfinder skill and his focus efficiency.

Hope that clears up things, if, however, I am understood as some troll, I want to blame my lack of English skills, as it is not my mother language.

Cheers!

[Kommissar Golovko]

No attempt to troll here at all, rather serious grief!

I had the Kaya YoYo in mind as I ate of Karchevs 3 Jacks with it at one tourney, so it was just my hurt feelings writing this.

Which rules were being used? Mk 1 I suppose since the Hordes rules have just come out? Yes, Yoyo is a concern even now. Jacks however are more survivable and even with the Yoyo, Karchev could easily get to the Kaya's beasts.


You may be right about the Angelius not being able to do much, I did not play against Legion for a long time but remembered that he can shoot and will always be able to avoid the point of contact as long as he wants to.

But we are talking about Angelus vs a closed Dev. So it either is the * Attack or the Ranged Attack both of which will leave a surviving Dev on the field.


One vs one Kromac and Butcher I would bet my money on the Butcher as well, but assuming that he will have to camp a serious amount of Focus to survive just feels not like comparing them in game. As Butcher will spend Focus but Kromac gets them. I think a game of those two beasts would be a lot of fun but in a whole game I think Kromac out-threats Butcher. If, however, they are the last models standing... Kromac would be a bloody pulp!

Yes, Kromac outranges Butcher's threat range but again, if I know Kromac is nearby I would just be camping focus at the moment. Kromac just doesn't have the fury, even with feat to kill him unless he rolls very very well.



Hope that clears up things, if, however, I am understood as some troll, I want to blame my lack of English skills, as it is not my mother language.

Cheers!

It's not the language. It's presenting these ideas about the Dev without even the basic proof to back them up and insisting it dies easily. While I have seen closed Devs die in one activation to trolls in Mk 1, this is Mk 2. I haven't seen a closed one die quite as fast yet.

[pinkpantie]

Okay rundown of my line of argument:

Dev + Butcher not as efficient as Kodiak + Butcher

Dev= high armor, very slow, needs focus to run
Kodiak= lower armor + pathfinder + no focus to run + one point cheaper (ergo Wardog)

Butcher is hard to kill with all focus stacked up, therefor having a Kodiak allows him to keep all Focus and still have a very maneuverable 'jack. That is all I am trying to say.

For the killing aspect: Sure, the Dev is one of the hardest targets to crack in the whole WM/H game, but do you really want to tell me that it can't be done in one turn? If I get the warped Warpwolf into btb with him, he will take a big fat blow and then he is teleported back into safety, or worse, he will just slam the Dev away. I had to offer a awful lot of ressources to get him killed him off but it can be done by any army in the game. Circle and Legion will just teleport/fly away and wittle him down as they are way more mobile.
So yes, the Dev is very hard to kill, and maybe, not even killable in one round without risking to much, but can he be slammed/thrown away? Sure and with a SPD of 4 he is just to slow to get somewhere fast enough afterwards.
A slammed Kodiak has the same problems but getting through rough terrain and running is by far easier for him, so esp. Cricle and Legion won't profit that much from hiding behind terrain.

If I had to face a Dev I would just outdance him. His Rain of Death can only be put on a caster if your opponent does not know about him. Same goes for Infantry blobs.

I own a Dev as well but playing him without Vlad just didn't convince me so far. Maybe you can.

[Grizwald]

Okay rundown of my line of argument:

Dev + Butcher not as efficient as Kodiak + Butcher

Dev= high armor, very slow, needs focus to run
Kodiak= lower armor + pathfinder + no focus to run + one point cheaper (ergo Wardog)
Both models have the same SPD. Both have the same base threat range. I say base because the Devastator can damage things 3" away from him. If the model I want to hit is behind something else, I can charge the model in front, RoD, and boost vs. my target.




For the killing aspect: Sure, the Dev is one of the hardest targets to crack in the whole WM/H game, but do you really want to tell me that it can't be done in one turn? If I get the warped Warpwolf into btb with him, he will take a big fat blow and then he is teleported back into safety, or worse, he will just slam the Dev away.
Let's use a Feral Warpwolf with Kaya, warped for STR. 2 POW 17 claws and a POW 16 bite. Using average damage rolls you do 2 points on the claw charge, nothing for claw #2, nothing for bite. Spend 4 focus for more attacks, (I'll assume that you find a way to charge for free) and do nothing more. 2 points of damage is not really a "big fat blow".

Let's say you spend your fury for boosting damage instead of more attacks. Using average damage rolls you do 2 points on the claw charge, 2 points for claw #2(boost #1), 1 point for bite(boost#2). Buy another attack (boost #3) and boost damage(#4) for 2 more points of damage. Total of 7. That might take out a system.

I've played 14 MKII games with a Devastator in my lists and I've lost a closed Devastator in one turn once. That was to Fire of Salvation with a +5 Synergy bonus from Amon.



I had to offer a awful lot of ressources to get him killed him off but it can be done by any army in the game.
If the army is ready for it, yes. But if you are focusing all your resources on one model, what are the rest of my models doing?



If I had to face a Dev I would just outdance him. His Rain of Death can only be put on a caster if your opponent does not know about him. Same goes for Infantry blobs.
At some point you have to deal with it. If all your doing is running your army around the field to avoid my Devastator, I would say it's doing it's job.

It's all about what you use in the army. The Devastator is not going to be the only model that I'm running with the Butcher. I'm going to have some more models that could ruin your plans.

In my 14 games, my Devastator is tied with the Spriggan for most caster 1 shots.

[Avecrien]

The only frustration or fear I've ever felt fielding a Dev is when a savvy player is able to keep forcibly moving the big guy away from the fights. Typically that's with equal or fewer points than his. But being slow is the burden we bear, especially now that I'm so fond of Butcher. I still love the Dev and think he's the best fit for the Butcher mentality.

[BlitzR]

Let's use a Feral Warpwolf with Kaya, warped for STR. 2 POW 17 claws and a POW 16 bite. Using average damage rolls you do 2 points on the claw charge, nothing for claw #2, nothing for bite. Spend 4 focus for more attacks, (I'll assume that you find a way to charge for free) and do nothing more. 2 points of damage is not really a "big fat blow".

Let's say you spend your fury for boosting damage instead of more attacks. Using average damage rolls you do 2 points on the claw charge, 2 points for claw #2(boost #1), 1 point for bite(boost#2). Buy another attack (boost #3) and boost damage(#4) for 2 more points of damage. Total of 7. That might take out a system.

Just how closely have you looked at a Feral Warpwolf. You need to realise that as soon as anyone playing Orboros knows that they are going into a game with Khador...their list will include a Gorax. That takes the Freal to a potential P+S19 on its basic claw attacks. Depending on the Warlock (either Baldur or epic Kaya come to mind) it is swinging an impressive P+S21!

On average rolls you are doing a total of 20 points of damage (not allowing for a charge). Sure that is still a ways from killing it (14 points to go). if you were foolish enough to leave an up keep on it...well it WOULD be dead.

I agree that a (closed) Devastator is highly unlikely to get trashed in a single round...in fact, I would not even bother trying. They are slow enough to avoid or simply throw or slam to take them out of the equation.

Looking from the other side (Khador is my main faction), I use my Devastators as a shook and intimidation tool. They work great to draw resources or funnel the enemy to where I want them to go and hopefully to position that my other jacks can capitalise on.

[Cambeul]

Dev with Butcher - no Pathfinder

Kodiak with Butcher - it brings its own Pathfinder

This also can be a factor against Circle with the ability to throw down forests.

Also you may not want to put up Iron Flesh on Butcher since Circle have a little light called a Wold Wyrd that puts that animus that does the boosted attack thingy, Arcane Hunter.

[BlitzR]

I guess my point, and reading my last post it is not obvious, is that while it is quite possible to trash a closed Devastator in a single turn...there are far easier and less costly ways to deal with one.

I still think that the ARM of a Devastator should be higher than 17 when open. Really, if Ol' Rowdy can get +1ARM for a buckler that is NOT EVEN THERE, then why do those huge shields on the Devs arms cease to do anything simple because it drops it's shoulders slightly?

[Avecrien]

I agree. I'm hoping we'll get a character Dev that can snap at least partially shut more quickly.

[whats82]

Only thing I've ever seen to successfully crack a closed devy (by crack I mean wreck) in a single turn was a beefed up Mulg with 1 charge attack + 5 attacks at P+S 22. Even then he had to roll decent for it.

The avatar could possibly do it and he could get up to 5 attacks at P+S 23 with some casters, but that is not something the prot player can rely on (caster, full focus on d3)

[Grizwald]

Just how closely have you looked at a Feral Warpwolf. You need to realise that as soon as anyone playing Orboros knows that they are going into a game with Khador...their list will include a Gorax.
My example was a Feral Warpwolf with Kaya as was mentioned. There was no full Circle army listed. If we start assuming everything that's in the Circle list, we then have to start taking into account everything in the Butcher list. And that would take too much time. Yes you can get a Warpwolf to have more power, but that was not my example.

How often do you know what your going to be facing when you make your list? Or do you have to plan for what you may face?

[Kevin B]

Well its interesting seeing the discusion this has started.

Personally I think it overall shows that a Dev is very hard to crack in one turn without spending a lot of effort and resource into it - to me that equals great spearhead unit so your other stuff can counter.

Also to some of the points aimed at me I dont just rely on the Dev walking up the the enemy caster/lock and going rain of death but in general if you time it right (feat turn in the middel of the enemy for example) the net reward you can get from it is fantastic and can make up for how badly beaten the Dev will get now its armour has dropped next turn.

On a personal note I first started using it cause I loved the model ;)

[smcwatt]

Well, I just took out 2 Devs and eButcher last week against Cygnar, and the suprise guest caster was pHaley. Temporal Barrier always kept the Devs out of Rain range all game. It's not an unbeatable combo by any stretch of the imagination.

SMc.

[pinkpantie]

Hm I guess any other jack would have been stuck as well, as even the Kodiak could not use his Pathfinder against the temporal barrier. A destroyer would have helped ;)
But it is a shame, as all our heavies are easy to take out of game with some intelligent maneuvers. We just need a way around it.

[Grizwald]

Hm I guess any other jack would have been stuck as well, as even the Kodiak could not use his Pathfinder against the temporal barrier. A destroyer would have helped ;)
But it is a shame, as all our heavies are easy to take out of game with some intelligent maneuvers. We just need a way around it.
Start the game off with a sockjacking. That will stop the intelligent maneuvers:)

[pinkpantie]

Bah! I really want to wade through enemy fire and all the shenanigans they throw at us, like the butcher in the last NQ. Come get some! So we just need a bit time and patience (but I think a solid Socketjack can solve some issues as well ;) )