Rune shot interactions with Mercenary Warjacks

[Chuck B]

So Now that Highborn contract warcasters can take a unit of ATGM w/UA Means that we can use rune shot with 4 merc warjacks. Most of the interactions are no brainers but few have me scratching my head. Am I right with following thoughts?

Vanguard
* Crit Brutal: Normal
* Snipe: Range 12, hehe
* Thunderbolt: Normal

A good Jack over all at its point cost. Its ability's should help Keep the UA alive by taking ranged attacks and blocking charge lanes with its reach. between Assault and Snipe you have a threat range of 17-21", that is not to shabby.

Mule
* Crit Brutal: Hit target only, does not include models in the AOE. If you crit, you get a Pow 15 3D6(4d6 w/if JM boost) damage roll. With that roll also equaling the POW of collateral damage.
* Snipe: Range 12/16
* Thunderbolt: All Models in the AOE are pushed directly away(back) from the attacking model. Only target hit can be knocked down. How this interacts with critical devastation is confusing me. Can they be used together? would the models travel D6+D3?

Really, Mule + Snipe need I say more? 24 points to be able to toss 2 POW 15 and a possable POW 17/12 AOE's a turn.

Buccaneer
* Crit Brutal: Cannot be used
* Snipe: Range 12
* Thunderbolt: Normal though auto KD

For 3 point I can see some use's but I think I would rather use any of the other merc ranged jacks with the UA or give him a Bokur.

Mariner
* Crit Brutal: Hit target only, does not include models in the AOE
* Snipe: Range 19
* Thunderbolt: All Models in the AOE are pushed directly away(back) from the attacking model. Only target hit can be knocked down.

Its a Hard choice going to be a hard choice between the Mariner and the Mule, it comes down to if lash is more important then critical devastation.

[mikethefish]

Mule
* Thunderbolt: All Models in the AOE are pushed directly away(back) from the attacking model. Only target hit can be knocked down. How this interacts with critical devastation is confusing me. Can they be used together? would the models travel D6+D3?


Well ok - I am pretty sure that both effects stack, as neither are duplicated. One is a push effect, and the other is a throw effect, so no conflict.

No the main question is WHEN to the effects take place. Models being pushed will stop if they touch other models, without causing collateral damage or anything like that. So will the models be pushed first and THEN thrown? Or will they be thrown first and then pushed? Wierd.

On the other hand, there's potential for moving a cluster of models back like 9 inches, and... well holy cow that's crazy.

[Hesse]

Shamelessly taken from our local board, wondering about the same stuff:

Timing rules

[...]
8. Resolve AOE hit or deviation. All models within the AOE at its final position are now hit by it. Remember that only the target of the AOE attack is directly hit, and then only if the attack roll against it succeeds. All other models are hit but not directly hit.
9. Resolve all other effects that are triggered by hitting or missing.
10. Roll all damage rolls against models that have been hit, or as specifi ed by special rules.
[...]

Meaning that the attacker chooses the order the effects resolve in.

[Hjelmen0]

Both being active player effects, I am pretty sure that during step 9 of the attack resolution (quoted by Hesse above), the active player chooses the resolution order. So either:
1: all models are pushed D3" from Thunderbolt, then thrown D6" from Crit. Devastation
or
2: all models are thrown D6" from Crit. Devastation, then pushed D3" from Thunderbolt.

Making it a very interesting choice whether you choose 1 or 2; since thrown models can be thrown over other models, while the push will stop when contacting another model.

I haven't seen an "official" note on this combo, but from the timing rules, it seems cut-and-dried to me.

[Booggy]

Thunderbolt
"[...] On a critical hit, the enemy model is knocked down after being pushed."

Can a KD model be thrown ? If not, better trigger Crit Devastation before Crit Thunderbolt.

[Rosicrucian]

Thunderbolt
"[...] On a critical hit, the enemy model is knocked down after being pushed."

Can a KD model be thrown ? If not, better trigger Crit Devastation before Crit Thunderbolt.

KD models cannot be moved by a Slam, however, they have no such provision for throws. As I read it you can freely choose the order you want to resolve the two effects.

[Mod_Faultie]

This has gotten nasty.
I cannot wait to buy some Gun Mages!

[talonhawk01]

As a previous Cygnar player (turned to the coin after I learned the game, pretty much), I already have Gun Mages. Painted ones even. Just need the Dude for them, and I'll be set. I think Highborn just replaced Four Star as my main contract...damn it.

[Mod_Faultie]

Rune Shot doesn't make the weapon attack magical, does it?
Magical Weapon is a feature of the Magelock Pistol, not the Rune Shot ability, I think.

[Rosicrucian]

I believe you are correct.

[Hjelmen0]

Correct, Faultie. Rune Shot does not make the weapon magical, so if you need that, stack Rune Shot with Lurynsar's Touch for added hilarity :D

[Salix060907]

I know from what my press gangers have told me, you can throw a knocked down model. I've done it often enough with my freebooter and buccaneer. Though I don't think you can push a knocked down model. So the throw from the mule should happen second.

[Hjelmen0]

A knocked down model can be thrown and pushed. Only slams against knocked down models are disallowed.

[The Anders]

Yes, push all you want.

[Ger]

Ah Crit Devastation is a throw. Here I was thinking it's a slam. Yup they totally stack.

The fun trick in my mind is that with either Mule or Mariner is that Thunderbolt is always going to net you a bit of extra distance between yourself and the model your shooting at. So with the Mariner your looking at a nice long range "we don't need no crit" pushback. AoE 3 instead of AoE 4 but definitly worth doing I'm thinking.

The main thing to remember though is both of those jacks are 8 pts. 8 pts on a rather squishy officer. He has no boxes and only arm 11. A stray AoE stands a scary good chance of sending his pulpy corpse at the feet of whatever he was marshalling. (Heck whatever he is marshalling could be a vector to deliver an AoE on him) And he's the only Jack Marshal in the unit so taking control of the jack again won't be simple if he dies.

The Buccaneer on the otherhand has some simple and rather interesting interactions. Thunderbolt + Net = always have the crit effect. You lose out on Brutal Shot, but you make serious gains on snipe and a jackmarshal boost to hit. For 3 points I think this is rather worth doing.

[Rosicrucian]

Someone over in the Mk2 Rules forum mentions that the GMCA Officer's lack of boxes was reported to be a typo. It would make sense given that every other officer in Warmachine, with the exception of the Press Ganger Lass, has boxes. I'm currently trying to confirm this in the Cygnar Mk2 Card Deck thread. If true this means he's a bit less squishy, although still not nearly as tough as Sam.

Also, keep in mind that in Mk2 if a unit's officer is a Jack Marshal and that officer dies, the Jack Marshal ability transfers to the new unit leader. Jack Marshal units are actually pretty survivable in comparison. You lose rune shot, but your jack is still marshalled.

[Booggy]

Unless it has been revised in the new deck cards or Prime MKII, UA Gun Mage has boxes (it was a typo in the PDF).

And since MKII, it seems the Jack Marshal ability can be transfered to others unit members if the officer dies.

EDIT : too late... :rolleyes:

[Nalik]

Highborn contract just screams Fiona now.

Roth’s Mercy to keep the Arcane Tempest Gun Mage Officer alive.

Nonokrion Brand to let the range 19 Mariners ignore intervening models. (or 21 w/ MacNaile)

[Ger]

Huh really? Happen to have a page number available? I'll go digging myself in a bit, just seeing if you can shorten the time I spend looking.

::EDIT::
I'm not sure Roth's is really all that amazing on ATGM. Oh don't get me wrong important Squishy Officer that dies last. Definitely good. However, there is only ever going to be 6 other bodies and those bodies are squishy as heck. I can see you running out of mercy quick.

[Hjelmen0]

Units
If a unit has the ’Jack Marshal advantage, the unit commander of the unit is the ’jack marshal.
If the unit commander leaves play, the new unit commander of that unit gains the ’Jack Marshal advantage and automatically becomes the controller of any warjacks previously controlled by the unit commander that left play.
Example: The Arcane Tempest Gun Mage Officer unit attachment has the ’Jack Marshal advantage. If the Officer leaves play, the Leader of the Arcane Tempest Gun Mage unit becomes the new unit commander and gains the ’Jack Marshal advantage.

There you go, Ger. And it's even got the right unit in the example and everything :D

Of course any drives and other special rules relating to the 'jack marshal that left play will not be conferred to the new leader-marshal. So if the Officer leaves play, then Rune Shot is lost.

[Rosicrucian]

Huh really? Happen to have a page number available? I'll go digging myself in a bit, just seeing if you can shorten the time I spend looking.

::EDIT::
I'm not sure Roth's is really all that amazing on ATGM. Oh don't get me wrong important Squishy Officer that dies last. Definitely good. However, there is only ever going to be 6 other bodies and those bodies are squishy as heck. I can see you running out of mercy quick.

Page 78 of the september pdf under "Unit" on the right hand side of the page. In fact the ATGM + Officer is the example in the book.

"Example: The Arcane Tempest Gun Mage Officer unit attachment has the ’Jack Marshal advantage. If the Officer leaves play, the Leader of the Arcane Tempest Gun Mage unit becomes the new unit commander and gains the ’Jack Marshal advantage."

Re: Roth's Mercy
I still think Nyss Hunters are the Prime target for this spell. Cylena is more critical to the unit than the Officer is to the ATGMs. Also the Nyss like being in melee where the "self-sacrifice" effect is most powerful for the troopers themselves. That said, if you're marshalling two Mules or Mariners with the ATGMs RM isn't a bad idea to make sure Rune Shot sticks around.

[Ger]

So it does. Also page 80 of the MKII rulebook. Well, that couldn't be more clear. Much less dangerous to jack marshal on that unit then I suspected. Still squishy, but less dangerous.

::EDIT::
I've used my Nyss more as a Range threat with Cylena waaaaaaaaaay in the back where she can't typically be gotten at. Even if it means she doesn't get to lead a CRA. I also keep Nonokrion Brand on them so ya.

Roth's on ATGM is definitly a good idea. I just note a lack of bodies.

Also I admit Roth's Mercy is a spell I still have not mastered. I need much more practice.

[studderingdave]

i was looking for a way to get more mules into my ashlyn list. seems the tempest mages are a perfect fit, they also add synergy with her feat with crit brutal damage.

off to the LGS to by some models.

[Bumpasses]

Highborn contract just screams Fiona now.

Roth?s Mercy to keep the Arcane Tempest Gun Mage Officer alive.

Nonokrion Brand to let the range 19 Mariners ignore intervening models. (or 21 w/ MacNaile)

saxctly what i wuz thinkin

[Bumpasses]

sheeez PP is gonna sell some epic pewt/pstc with all this madness.

[Cannibalbob]

I like the idea of using the Gun Mage Officer to marshal a Mule, but I think altogether that Sam Machorne is still better at running Mules. The Runeshot interactions are nice and flexible, but overall I think Pronto is still better. Sam is also a whole lot tougher to kill.

I think the difference would mainly come down to which unit fits better into the list being constructed - Devil Dogs or Gun Mages + UA.

[DevonV]

I'm looking at the wording, and I don't see why the Mariner can't crit Knockdown everyone in the AoE with Thunderbolt.


Thunderbolt - Enemy models hit are pushed d3˝ directly away from the attacking model. On a critical hit, the enemy model is knocked down after being pushed.

Critical Fire - On a critical hit, the model hit by this attack suffers the Fire continuous effect

Both use singulars, but it's already been ruled (old forum) that the Phoenix's Halo Cannon burns everyone in the AoE on a critical hit.

[Rosicrucian]

I'm looking at the wording, and I don't see why the Mariner can't crit Knockdown everyone in the AoE with Thunderbolt.

Both use singulars, but it's already been ruled (old forum) that the Phoenix's Halo Cannon burns everyone in the AoE on a critical hit.

That's how I see it too. PP has been very consistent about using hit/directly hit language to clarify which effects work over AOEs and such and which don't. I don't think the singular makes a difference.