Tier Lists: Is Cryx at a disadvantage? [Archive]

DarkTraveler777

01-09-2010, 02:11 PM

This thought occurred to me after seeing the new Mercenary tier lists, but is Cryx going to be at a disadvantage in friendly and tournament games because we will be the last faction to get our tier lists?

Seeing that the Magnus lists grant a reduction in points for warjacks and other tier lists provide bonuses that impact the game in other interesting ways, what is the community's thoughts on having to make due without these perks until May?

Is it unreasonable to decline a game if the other player is using a tier list and you are unable to reciprocate? Have tournament organizers thought about the impact of tier lists at their events? If so, how are tournament organizers planning on dealing with the point total and tactical discrepancies created through the use of tier lists?

Just as a disclaimer I know the tier lists aren't necessarily game breaking, but from what I have seen of the Mercenary lists they certainly do add some extra weight to a Merc player's force. In a friendly game it may not be as much of an issue, but I could certainly see it giving advantages to a player in a tournament setting. I have no doubt the other faction tier lists will be just as interesting and powerful as the Mercenary lists, and with each passing month leading up to May, Cryx players will be finding themselves further outclassed by these fortified lists.

So, anyway, thoughts on the matter?

gdaybloke

01-09-2010, 02:21 PM

I can only speak with regard to the Trib tiers, but I don't find them game breaking at all. They offer a little somethin' somethin' in exchange for denying you a whole bunch of options otherwise available to your faction. Even at the higher ends, it's not exactly a huge payoff - if I push Rahn to tier 4, I get to start with Force Field and Polarity shield in play and can upkeep them for free in the first turn. Well, hooray, with 8 FOC I can already cast 'em both and fully load up a Hydra.

Granted, the free arcanist at Tier 2 is nice, but when the cost is eliminating Dawnguard and Mage Hunter models from my options, as well as snipers and characters like Eiryss and Narn?

Again, speaking only for the Retribution tiers, but they seem more a pat on the back for playing thematically as opposed to sheerly competitively. That's not to say that they aren't potentially competitive, but I don't think having to wait til May for the Cryxian tiers will be a game-breaking issue.

Of course, I stand ready to be proven wrong when the other Forces books are released.

Corpazious

01-09-2010, 02:25 PM

I think Privateer views the Tiers as part of the reward for placement in the Summer Rampage (I think that's what it was called).

I would prefer that we all get our Tiers now at the same time for symmetry and balance, but from what I've seen from Retribution and Magnus, as you said, they don't seem game breaking, but they do allow certain lists to be played more effectively.

I think in tournaments we'll still be fine... I hope. ;)

Jyggdrasil

01-09-2010, 02:37 PM

I really don't see much of an issue. The tiers require you to give something up and then you get something in return. They are a balanced, legal organised play option.

As far as timing goes, timing gaps are nothing new. It's the same with released models. Some factions will get their new solo, unit, UA, etc first, some won't.

And sure, most NQ previews, include one entry for each faction and so we are used to getting the rules for every faction at the same time. That allows people to proxy and fiddling with them, but because the models (or in this case the tiers lists) are not released at the same time you cannot use them in tournaments or other organised play.

DarkTraveler777

01-09-2010, 02:56 PM

I really don't see much of an issue. The tiers require you to give something up and then you get something in return. They are a balanced, legal organised play option.

True, but to give a specific example, the Magnus Tier 1 Most Wanted list requires the Merc player use models typically fielded in MK 1 Mangus Agenda lists, and they get the added benefit of shaving 1 point off each Renegade 'jack they field and they get to bring Trencher or Long Gunner units to the table with any unit attachments they want.

So what exactly is the Magnus player giving up? Because it seems like they are getting an awful lot by just doing what they normally do anyway.

While this is a specific example it is one of the reasons why I thought of this thread in the first place. Some of the Mercenary tier lists are pretty damn potent, and no doubt future tier lists will be too, so when you are coming to the table without the benefit of an equally powerful tier list in your corner are you at an immediate disadvantage?

And sure, most NQ previews, include one entry for each faction and so we are used to getting the rules for every faction at the same time. That allows people to proxy and fiddling with them, but because the models (or in this case the tiers lists) are not released at the same time you cannot use them in tournaments or other organised play.

Am I understanding you correctly in that you are saying tier lists are not tournament legal until all the faction books are released? I spoke to a PG friend of mine and he was under the assumption that tier lists are tournament legal as of right now (so Mercs, Retribution, and Cygnar next month) would be fine from February onward. If that isn't the case and it won't be until May when tier lists can be used for organized play then that is good to know. Clarification would be appreciated.

Jyggdrasil

01-09-2010, 03:02 PM

Let me be clearer on that point. Tier lists, like models, are tournament legal as soon as they are released by PP. The exception being mercs, who have received legal tiers in advance of their FoW book.

EDIT - the point I was trying to make being that not all factions get their models at the same time either (tho they may get all the rules at the same time via NQ), but they are still legal as soon they are released instead of having to wait for everybody else.

karn987

01-09-2010, 03:05 PM

Well judging by the Ret tiers (a much better way to judge how useful tier lists will be btw, the merc tiers are very limited to begin with, the tier lists given (only magnus so far) balance that. So, judging by the Ret lists, I think the answer is a resounding no, I don't think we will be at a disadvantage for this reason. They are nice, but are not to powerful though then again, Ret plays more as a unified faction, limiting their choices in the tier lists hurts them more then the tier lists help them most of the time.

What will hurt us a bit will be the lack of the new models till later then the rest. Though I could be wrong, are the new cryx models coming out at the same time as the rest? Basically are they doing releases of various factions at the same time rather then all of one faction at the same time?

Mael

01-09-2010, 04:06 PM

Is it unreasonable to decline a game if the other player is using a tier list and you are unable to reciprocate? Have tournament organizers thought about the impact of tier lists at their events?

Yes. Tier lists will always be allowed in tournament settings as normal lists would be. Tier lists do not unbalance factions and do not provide game breaking bonuses.

malfred

01-09-2010, 04:11 PM

Mercenaries get their tier lists last. They just get a preview of
Magnus lists because people already have models to have playable
armies and it's reasonable to want them to be able to play with
them. None of the other merc warcasters will have tier lists (barring
a NQ preview) before a Cryxian one, it seems.

DarkTraveler777

01-09-2010, 04:33 PM

Yes. Tier lists will always be allowed in tournament settings as normal lists would be. Tier lists do not unbalance factions and do not provide game breaking bonuses.

I never stated that the imbalance between a tiered list and a non-tiered list was game breaking, but there is an imbalance present. If one player has access to a couple of free points over the other player that isn't exactly fair is it? In friendly games that is less of an issue but in a tournament setting how can anyone sign off on that?

More to the point a Cryx player will not have a choice in bringing a tiered list while other faction players will have that choice. If a Magnus or Cygnar player can squeeze some extra points out of a list build, or reap some other benefit in a tournament setting through a tiered list, is that fair for other players who do not have those options available for their armies?

Mercenaries get their tier lists last. They just get a preview of
Magnus lists because people already have models to have playable
armies and it's reasonable to want them to be able to play with
them. None of the other merc warcasters will have tier lists (barring
a NQ preview) before a Cryxian one, it seems.

That is interesting, I thought that the tiered lists previewed were everything that the Mercs were going to get. Good to know, thanks for the heads up.

Temoinlanuit

01-09-2010, 04:54 PM

Of course we are.

It's not a question of balance, but a question of choice.

It's the same argument that people like to make when they say we don't need mercenaries, etc... the fact of the matter is, with more options, you have the ability to adapt your list to take advantages of what's available. Lack of choice translates into a disadvantage. It's not doom, although some idiots might brand it as such, and it's pretty simple.

At the end of the day, looks like we're just going to have to live with it, though, unless PP decides to release any information ahead of time.

Jyggdrasil

01-09-2010, 04:57 PM

If one player has access to a couple of free points over the other player that isn't exactly fair is it?

Actually, opposing lists are often a few points off because of the varying amount of warjack points available to the casters.

archangelq

01-09-2010, 04:59 PM

Tier lists may get extra points, but I think you are missing the other point of tier lists. They are making up for severely restricting your model options.

Now, you may look at Magnus's and not see that, because you are seeing it through Mk1 filters. In Mk1, that was just an option to run. But it was always really restrictive. In Mk2, there is a bit more of a balance being given to that list, to bring it up to where the less restricted merc lists, such as Four Star, could be. With four star, while you don't have long gunners or trenchers, to do have a much broader list of other mercs that you can play with. All the tier lists will be that way.

Honestly, most of the tier lists we've seen now are actually less powerful than a normal faction list, even with the bonuses they get, because they enforce a very specific (and predictable) playstyle. And we'll be seeing all of the lists in the next five months anyway. Is five months really *that* long to wait?

malfred

01-09-2010, 04:59 PM

That is interesting, I thought that the tiered lists previewed were everything that the Mercs were going to get. Good to know, thanks for the heads up.

If that was it, you'd have to visit the Merc forums to see the howling
and the gnashing of teeth. :D Everyone seems to feel comfortable that
since Retribution received a tier list for every 'caster, then that translates
into a tier list for multiple 'casters (if not all of them) in each force book.

Thing is, we won't know until we see the Cygnar one. So there's a reason
you want Cygnar to get their Forces book first :)

Even though I mostly dabble in Cygnar, I'm looking forward to their Forces
book. (Don't tell the Menites)

Mod_Faultie

01-09-2010, 05:04 PM

Thing is, we won't know until we see the Cygnar one. So there's a reason you want Cygnar to get their Forces book first
Yes, we will know. Every caster in the game gets one.

Every single warcaster in the game will be receiving a themed tier list.
The reason they released the Mercenary Contracts is because you cannot play an all-Merc force without them (or a Theme List). Without Contract rules, Mercs couldn't play MKII.
Mr. Soles also noted that you select either a Theme List or a Contract (not both).

ErsatzGnomes

01-09-2010, 05:08 PM

While tier lists are cool, I don't think they're "broken" enough to warrant declining a game because of it

malfred

01-09-2010, 05:14 PM

Yes, we will know. Every caster in the game gets one.

Thanks for that quote. I missed it.

Probably read it, too. It just seemed to slip my brain.

DarkTraveler777

01-09-2010, 05:16 PM

Of course we are.

It's not a question of balance, but a question of choice.

Yes, exactly.

And we'll be seeing all of the lists in the next five months anyway. Is five months really *that* long to wait?

If a discrepancy in power exists, yes. I did not quote the meat of your post and please do not take that to mean that I am disregarding it. You had an interesting point in there about a Magnus player choosing whether or not to embrace the full range of Merc models under a 4 Star list or choosing to limit his list and take a tiered list instead to reap the tier benefits. However, that is still a choice that the Magnus player can make that other players will be unable to make until their forces books are released. For Cryx and non-Magnus Merc players, that is 5 or 6 months from now. Upwards to half a year is a long time to wait on the sidelines while your opponents get to use tactical advantages for their armies that you are unable to use.

So, in a word, yes. Five months is a long time to wait.

Mod_Faultie

01-09-2010, 05:18 PM

Thanks for that quote. I missed it.

Probably read it, too. It just seemed to slip my brain.
No sweat. It actually came from a thread in the Merc Community.

hauntingexperience

01-09-2010, 05:35 PM

I'd love to see a eGoreshade tier list that allows him to "steal" some Ret infantry like mage hunters (like magnus steals). Perhaps his theft of Voas has created some extremist supporters in the elven kingdom? Perhaps they are desperate enough to try anything now.

Jyggdrasil

01-09-2010, 05:37 PM

Cool idea. Given his history some of the more generic RoS stuff might not be out of place. Houseguard perhaps?

karn987

01-09-2010, 06:02 PM

I think it would be a bit of a stretch to think any Iosian would really go and side with Goreshade over their own people and gods, especially since everyone knows he's trying to kill them. >.> More likely outcasts like Nyss that didn't get blighted by Everblight. Maybe let Goreshade take that Nyss unit, I cant remember if they work for Cryx or not off the top of my head >.>.

archangelq

01-09-2010, 06:58 PM

The Nyss Hunters already work for Cryx, as well as Cygnar, Khador, and Retribution.

@DarkTraveler777 (http://www.privateerpressforums.com/member.php?u=40334): I really don't think they'll be all that powerful that you'll be concerned. I mean, consider this, you won't be able to field some of the units that you'll be getting in the force books either. Same deal there if you want to get up in arms about it.

There has to be a release schedule. PP can't afford to just publish everything at once, the development time and production costs are too high, and besides, even if they could, retailers would complain if it all came out at once.

I know everyone is burnt out over the transition between Mk1 and Mk2, and we all want it done *NOW NOW NOW*. I do to, believe me. But it isn't yet, and so patients is about the only sensible course.

Mael

01-09-2010, 08:20 PM

Upwards to half a year is a long time to wait on the sidelines while your opponents get to use tactical advantages for their armies that you are unable to use.

There are tactical advantages to themed lists that meet model restrictions - this is what balances them. All Tiered lists will be on par with lists that decide no not use these rules. There are huge steps being taken to make sure there are no power discrepancies between them.

While I admit that it's going to be no fun for Cryx to wait half a year to get their tiers, this doesn't mean that non-tiered lists will be unbalanced - there'll just be a few less options until the book hits the shelves.

Now just think about how much longer the Hordes armies have to wait. :)

Gorbad

01-09-2010, 08:43 PM

I honestly don't think it will be an issue. From what I've seen of the Ret tier lists it's mostly just if you really like to play with lots of unit X/sub-group Y and nothing else. And in return you get some compensation. Now my Cryx army is new enough that I don't really want to speak to it, but I know my Cygnar force just doesn't work that way. There are several obvious themes (Gunmages, Trenchers, Stormnouns) but while those armies can work they generally suffer quite a bit from R/S/P syndrome and that the tier lists gives you a few perks for doing it that won't change at all.

So I don't think in the main that tier lists will really be top tournament lists. They are just too limited to really offer you everything you need and lacking them isn't really going to be an issue.

I'm interested in seeing what lists we get for Cygnar, but I don't imagine I'll be playing any of them. I like my mercs and bringing units from very different parts of the army. That's what makes the list work.

69Lazarus

01-10-2010, 03:03 AM

2LiveIs2Die

01-10-2010, 04:30 AM

There are tactical advantages to themed lists that meet model restrictions - this is what balances them. All Tiered lists will be on par with lists that decide no not use these rules. There are huge steps being taken to make sure there are no power discrepancies between them.
The list being balanced and the armies being balanced are different.

Yes. Tier lists will always be allowed in tournament settings as normal lists would be. Tier lists do not unbalance factions and do not provide game breaking bonuses.
That's not true in the least.
It does unbalance the factions, not to say one is better, but the other factions will have more to choose from / a wider range of threats they can build around. I am not saying the tier lists will be over powered or game breaking, but giving the other factions something we don't have access to, even if they don't use it, puts us at a disadvantage because we have to consider it as a threat.

Jyggdrasil

01-10-2010, 05:31 AM

That's not true in the least.
Come on now, some of it is clearly true, while some parts are clearly subjective. In fact, you seem to take issue with only one part of Mael's statement.

It does unbalance the factions, not to say one is better...

Its my understanding that when one thing is not better than another, those things are balanced.

Seriously guys - the tiers are very unlikely to be an issue in tournaments because they force model choice and thus telegraph playstyle, but if somebody wants to play one they are perfectly legal. And sooner or later, that player will get stomped by a bad match-up or savvy player with a proper 'all comers' list.

My advice is to be the savvy player with a solid 'all comers' list.

bluetea

01-10-2010, 07:33 AM

Remember in MkI, when everyone had the option of playing those named fluff lists (Pirates of the Black Ship Something-something) but no one ever did because it didn't let them play all their fun toys? I envision theme lists for MkII working in a similar fashion; interesting to a select few but most leave it be in favor of more straightforward power models.

69Lazarus

01-10-2010, 07:34 AM

It does unbalance the factions, not to say one is better, but the other factions will have more to choose from / a wider range of threats they can build around.

But those "choices" come at the cost of exluding other choices. I'm not impressed with the ROS tiers for example. I make better competitive lists without them in general.....IMHO

malfred

01-10-2010, 08:15 AM

For pure competition, I'd usually rather face a tier list than a "regular" one. Tier lists, alothough cool at times, put a lot of restrictions on you.

Imagine Cryx tiers that said NO Tarterus.

Imagine Menoth Tiers that said NO Choir.

Etc.

Menoth Tiers with no choir would break me. They're pretty much
my auto-includes.

Actually, I have a better one for you.

Imagine MK2 Theme force that doesn't have the Covenant of Menoth. Since
it's a character, it's more likely to happen. If it appears anywhere, it will
be on Sevvy and/or eSevvy's theme force.

69Lazarus

01-10-2010, 08:42 AM

Yeah, that's exactly the kind of stuff I'm talking about. Tier lists usually force you to leave out stuff you really want to take.

DarkTraveler777

01-10-2010, 11:00 AM

Doing these out of order so bear with me. ;)

Remember in MkI, when everyone had the option of playing those named fluff lists (Pirates of the Black Ship Something-something) but no one ever did because it didn't let them play all their fun toys? I envision theme lists for MkII working in a similar fashion; interesting to a select few but most leave it be in favor of more straightforward power models.

I don't think the MK 1 themed lists are on par with the MK 2 tier lists. The MK 1 themed lists gave tiny perks in exchange for rather restrictive list compositions. Not having your Cleansers blow up from rear attacks is not as great as getting 1 point shaved off a Warjack, or access to the UA for another faction's units.

Looking at the Merc preview tiers I think it is plain to see that the new tiers are designed to give substantial rewards for using specific units, but those specific units tend to be ones fielded by that particular Warcaster. Mangus and his Renegades are a perfect example of that. Perhaps it is just my local meta, but the Magnus player that I face would rarely field a force without two Renegades. If he were to use a tier list he would either gain 2 free points, or be able to start the game with free spells on his Warjacks. Those are some pretty fantastic benefits for doing what he likely would have done anyway.

Just looking over the previewed Merc tier lists it seems apparent some are more powerful than others. There are two in the Most Wanted group that really play to Magnus' strengths. In all likelihood other tier lists will do the same for faction Warcasters.

@DarkTraveler777 (http://www.privateerpressforums.com/member.php?u=40334): I really don't think they'll be all that powerful that you'll be concerned. I mean, consider this, you won't be able to field some of the units that you'll be getting in the force books either. Same deal there if you want to get up in arms about it.

I understand what you and others who have used this analogy are saying, but I do not like the analogy to begin with.

Not having access to new, recently published, units doesn't feel the same to me as being denied perks and or special rules for my existing army. The first one (new units) adds to the tool box of an army, while the other (tier bonuses) changes the way a known army plays.

Not having access to whatever infantry unit Cryx will get is not as hampering as facing an army that paid less points for its Warjacks, for example.

I believe that is really what bothers me about upcoming tier lists. If the Magnus tiers are any indicator, then it is possible more themed forces will gain a discount in the price of potent models. Cheaper Renegades with Magnus means a lot of power for the Magnus player. While it is true that the Magnus player may be handicapping himself by going with a tier list, it is also true that the tier list may play right into the Magnus player's strategy and he is gaining extra resources for relatively little cost. Which is entirely cool with me, it is great that the Magnus player has that choice. I just think the playing field should be balanced, so either everyone has that choice or no one does.

In a tournament setting I see it as one player being given an advantage over the other because resources are being divided up differently between the two players. Getting a slight perk for bringing a list that works well with your Warcaster is an advantage.

As for the examples of possible Cryx tier lists people are only citing the negatives and not the positives.

If a tier list requires a Cryx player not to take Tartarus, what is the tier giving in exchange for the loss of Tartarus? If the Magnus lists are any indicator, then likely something cool and or fitting is being granted for the Warcaster who is being denied Tartarus.

What if a Deneghra list allowed every arc node she took to be 1 point cheaper as long as she took 3+ arc nodes in her list?

Or if Goreshade takes 2 or more Bane units they gain Stealth while in his control area?

If the situation were reversed and Cryx had their tier lists before other factions, and a player showed up to a tournament with one of those two hypothetical tier lists and his opponent just had to go with a "vanilla" list, you don't think there would be a little bit of resentment on the part of the Cryx opponent?

This post is getting wordy so I'll cut it off here. My basic point that I think I have failed to make is that the tier lists are able to provide benefits to Warcasters for playing a certain way and by taking certain units. However those playstyles and units tend to fit the Warcaster's intended purposes anyway, and so the tiers grant advantages to a player for using their Warcaster as intended. In a tournament gaining an advantage for playing in a style you are accustomed to doesn't seem very fair to me unless everyone has that option.

That being said it sounds like the majority of the responses so far have been that this isn't going to be a big deal. I hope it isn't. Perhaps in a month or two when players have gotten some tourneys under their belts we can see if there is any impact made by tier lists.

69Lazarus

01-10-2010, 11:12 AM

As for the examples of possible Cryx tier lists people are only citing the negatives and not the positives.
If a tier list requires a Cryx player not to take Tartarus, what is the tier giving in exchange for the loss of Tartarus? If the Magnus lists are any indicator, then likely something cool and or fitting is being granted for the Warcaster who is being denied Tartarus.
What if a Deneghra list allowed every arc node she took to be 1 point cheaper as long as she took 3+ arc nodes in her list?
Or if Goreshade takes 2 or more Bane units they gain Stealth while in his control area?

We can only guess as to what they will be. We only have the ROS tier lists and Magnus to look at so far. At least going by the ROS tiers you really have to give stuff up to gain little benefits overall (at least in my opinion). I only mentioned Tarterus (insert near auto include here like the Wither shadow Combine) as something you will have to potentially give up.
Look further at ROS tiers, it says "non character jacks". It's no big deal right now since there aren't any but what do you think will happen when they do start getting them in the next book? How many tier lists will you see at all if one of those jacks is good (like they likely will be)? I like Rhan for example - would I run a tier list with him? Hell no, I like using my Ghost Snipers, Mage hunter assassins and Eyriss for example. Tier lists don't allow that. I'm sure the same type thing will happen in most tier systems. It is another way to balance things and reward people who are trying for themed type lists. Sure, it's possible that one or two may just be great as they coincide with a caster's strengths but it is yet to be seen....

Overall, I think if you are being "disadvantaged" (read: getting beat) by a Tier list I submit that you would likely lose to that same player running a non tier list. Tier lists do not = more powerfull. What disadvantage are you at?

I would love to see some of the advantages you list come true but those sound waay to good if you ask me.

Perhaps in a month or two when players have gotten some tourneys under their belts we can see if there is any impact made by tier lists.

Been running & watching tourneys & games with Tier lists already and they are no better than any other list (heck, usually worse off). Tier lists have been out since the ROS book arrived remember?

lastspartacus

01-10-2010, 11:48 AM

Also, those weren't the 'merc tiers' it was just Magnus', the rest are yet to come.
Oh and come quickly, sexy forces books!

malfred

01-10-2010, 01:30 PM

No resentment at all.

One thing that is clear about theme forces (their official name) is that they
can remove power mercs from the equation.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Adeptis_Rahn%2C_Charge_of_the_Battle_Mages_Theme_F orce

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Dawnlord_Vyros%2C_Legions_of_the_Dawn_Theme_Force

For example, both of these forces don't allow you to use Eiryss, pretty much
an autoinclude for most factions against Warmachine. Also, no Narn, which
has some pretty sick rules.

I wouldn't be resentful at all. In fact, I would willingly play my Searforge non-theme
force contract army against a Retribution Theme force, or my MK2 protectorate
forces against against Cygnar theme forces next month.

Depending on what limitations they receive, I might almost welcome it.

Imagine me fielding my troops heavy Testament list against a Cygnar list
that doesn't include Alexia. I'd be ecstatic.

Hatred

01-10-2010, 02:31 PM

Is five months really *that* long to wait?

What would you think if you only got paid once every 5 months from your job?
I mean 5 months isn't really that long to wait. You don't have to eat, pay rent, buy clothes, gasoline, insurance, or drink in that time so it should work out fairly right?

I think that PP should be releasing the Menoth, Cryx, and Merc units in the No Quarter magazines and not the rules for units in Cygnar and Khador. As they are getting their books in the same months that the No Quarter is being released in the first place.

solkan

01-10-2010, 02:46 PM

What would you think if you only got paid once every 5 months from your job?
I mean 5 months isn't really that long to wait. You don't have to eat, pay rent, buy clothes, gasoline, insurance, or drink in that time so it should work out fairly right?

I think that PP should be releasing the Menoth, Cryx, and Merc units in the No Quarter magazines and not the rules for units in Cygnar and Khador. As they are getting their books in the same months that the No Quarter is being released in the first place.

Imagine if there was a new game which was announced and you had to wait FIVE MONTHS to play it!?!?! There's no way anyone could do ANYTHING else at all while they waited for it!?!? Wouldn't that be horrible? :eek:

Privateer announced that they couldn't release all of the books at the same time, and even gave players a chance to try to influence the order of the releases. Unless you want to organize a consortium to give them enough money to move the release schedule up, the book comes out when it comes out.

Comparing waiting for a rulebook to waiting for a paycheck gets you only a B- for this week's Internet Hyperbole assignment. Please review your work and try again, next time.

Jyggdrasil

01-10-2010, 02:48 PM

What would you think if you only got paid once every 5 months from your job?

I think I would need to manage my funds carefully, exactly like the people I know that are paid once a month, and in some cases once per quarter.

I mean 5 months isn't really that long to wait. You don't have to eat, pay rent, buy clothes, gasoline, insurance, or drink in that time so it should work out fairly right?

...Yes, it should be fine. Especially since none of those actually important things are in anyway tied to the release schedule for tier lists or my performance at WM/H tournaments.

Varagon

01-10-2010, 05:52 PM

Having choices doesn't make you "tactically" better.

As a Cryx player, I don't have a Warcaster attachment(WA). Because I can't choose a WA does that mean I have less tactical options?

I have things that other armies don't.

The issue at the moment is not that you wont get your tier list, it's that you want it now so things are "fair" in tournament play. Things will never be fair in WM/Hordes until every faction gets the exact same models with the same stats.

If you don't have a tiered list at the moment, so what? PP has released things in their own due time. If you feel like you are standing up for some principal or moral, then simply skip those friendly games/tournament games where people play tiered lists. Otherwise, we are going to have to suck it up and deal with a five month wait.

fuzzypants

01-10-2010, 07:37 PM

how i look at it is, if i said you could not field eirys, the black 13th, thorn and the thunderhead. and people will most likly know this fact, would you be at a disadvantage.

i say yes.

the tier lists pretty much do that and say the disadvantage of having an undynamic list lacking the power merc/jacks is worth around 1 to 4 points worth of advantages.

that is how the tier list look to me. i myself am willing to give someone 2 points not to field the black 13th and the thunderhead :P

we will see if they make balance a bit wonky, i do not think it will though.

Gorbad

01-10-2010, 08:47 PM

As a Cryx player, I don't have a Warcaster attachment(WA). Because I can't choose a WA does that mean I have less tactical options?

The Skarlock have the same attachment rules that the Squire, Wardog and Hierophant so you actually do.

But anyway, the Magnus tier might seem less limited than the ROS tier lists but that's because his list was incredibly limited to start with, there is only so much more you can limit it and still keep without the old Agenda. On the other hand if you used him in 4 Star (I think that was the one?) then you had lots more options that you can't use in the tier.

What I'm expecting to see is that while the tier lists still will include some of the mainline units a lot of the support units and soloes will be missing and once people have experimented a little they will for the most parts play 'normal' lists just to be able to include those things. Have the Ros tier really made much of a splash?

Ger

01-10-2010, 09:18 PM

Magnus only got his Tier lists as they where replacing an entire contract. His tier lists literally are Magnus Agenda now. Every other Merc Warcaster has to wait until after you cryx players.

hobgoblin

01-11-2010, 02:11 AM

Cryx or anyone ells for that matter will only be at a disadvantage from tiered lists if tiered lists are not balanced correctly, but this applies to everything ells in the game. Although errors are bound to happen and since other armies have access to new units and tiered list sooner Cryx will probably feel a little weaker at least till Cryx players get the book and can start abusing the ?errors?.

69Lazarus

01-11-2010, 03:32 AM

Have the Ros tier really made much of a splash?

Not everywhere that I've seen so far. Initial talk at first but most everyone quickly realized that you simply give up too much to circumvent FA restrictions on some units and perhaps get an occasional 1 point solo for free. I also firmly believe that the Tiers will become even less popular when a new book arives as it will likely add even more cool stuff that you won't be allowed to use. Sure, there will also be stuff that you can use but then again, so can everyone else.

Time will tell.

Cryx or anyone ells for that matter will only be at a disadvantage from tiered lists if tiered lists are not balanced correctly, but this applies to everything ells in the game. Although errors are bound to happen and since other armies have access to new units and tiered list sooner Cryx will probably feel a little weaker at least till Cryx players get the book and can start abusing the ?errors?.

Yes, the Tiers will have to be properly balanced. Assuming they are, no player should feel that his faction is "weaker" when facing a faction that has Tier options. Tier does not = more powerfull (generally speaking).

Elitistb

01-11-2010, 04:01 AM

69Lazarus

01-11-2010, 04:23 AM

As has been stated before, it depends on what the restrictions are. If the restrictions are something a player normally doesn't take anyway, it's pure bonus. Maybe not a huge bonus, but small things can swing games.

Bonus does not mean better in this case though since you may be leaving "better" choices behind in order to do so.

Again, look at Rhan (my Favorite ROS caster): I have to give up Character jacks (wwhich aren't out yet), mage hunter assassins, ghost snipers, both versions of eiryss, Skeryth Issyen, Nayl and Narn.

I give up all of that to raise FA on battle mages and magisters.

I can then add in a free 1 point solo if I use at least two heavy jacks.

If I include 3 Magister solos I can do a free advance more for my mages/magisters (I'd much rather spend the points of mage hunter assassins)

Finally, if I take 4 units of mage mittens(tm) I can have some of Rhan's upkeeps in play on first turn....he's a F'n 8 Focus caster so this was never an issue to begin with.

When I sum up all of the restrictions of either models I'm not allowed to take or the ammount of models I am required to take it doesn't seem to indicate any sort of great benefit to me. From a strictly competitive standpoint, I'm better off at playing a non tier list.

I really think that this overall trend will continue. Tiers aren't there for more "power". They seem to be these to make the theme / fluff people feel rewarded for buuilding a certain type list.

2LiveIs2Die

01-11-2010, 09:21 AM

The Skarlock have the same attachment rules that the Squire, Wardog and Hierophant so you actually do.
But all it can do is cast 1 spell.
The squire, wardog, and hierophant are auto-includes that have several abilities, there are casters that can't even utilize the skarlock. :p

Mael

01-11-2010, 10:00 AM

Just looking over the previewed Merc tier lists it seems apparent some are more powerful than others. There are two in the Most Wanted group that really play to Magnus' strengths.

Even with the most wanted bonuses do you feel that Magnus and his Tiers are overpowered and/or unbalanced compared to standard faction armies? By the same token do you find any of the retribution tier lists overpowered and/or unbalanced?

As has been stated before, it depends on what the restrictions are. If the restrictions are something a player normally doesn't take anyway, it's pure bonus.

If the restrictions are something a player doesn't take anyway they're not using the shiny new toys that are set out for them. Restrictions are still restrictions. Want to try the list with a different solo? You can't. Want to drop in Eiryss or Aiyanna and Holt? You can't.

But all it can do is cast 1 spell.
The squire, wardog, and hierophant are auto-includes that have several abilities, there are casters that can't even utilize the skarlock. :p

The grass is always greener, eh? I think a free spell per turn is much better than one extra focus three times a game.

Jyggdrasil

01-11-2010, 10:09 AM

The grass is always greener, eh? I think a free spell per turn is much better than one extra focus three times a game.

And in that you are right, but that is not all the Squire does.

RafiK

01-11-2010, 10:38 AM

Oh no, is this matter immortal?
We've been going through this so many times :-)
I thought it's quite obvious that Cygnarans would gladly (really GLADLY) exchange Squire for Scarlock. And Squire would be far more better in our faction than among the Blues. We have so many magic attacks and one more way to gain re-roll would be frustrating for opponents. Spreading both Deneghras feats wider would also be sth not right. And thats only most obvious combos I have with that. I belive that cryxian squire would be one of the most overpowered and imbalanced model in game.

But I'm not saying I don't hate the little thing ;-)

Btw You said scarlock is useless with certain casters, same as squire.

DarkTraveler777

01-11-2010, 11:39 AM

Even with the most wanted bonuses do you feel that Magnus and his Tiers are overpowered and/or unbalanced compared to standard faction armies? By the same token do you find any of the retribution tier lists overpowered and/or unbalanced?

To be honest I haven't looked at the Retribution tiers because the faction as a whole doesn't interest me. The only reason I became aware of the Merc/Magnus tiers is because of the nature of their release (free PDF), and had a moment of "Wow, really?" after reading them.

As for the first question I think that Magnus' Most Wanted tier bonuses reward Magnus for doing what Magnus already does well. I think the bonuses make his force more efficient and brutal and I think savvy players will capitalize on that bonus. Against a standard faction army without any tier bonuses I think there will be a slight edge. Not necessarily enough to over power the game, but I think enough to make things slightly skewed in the Magnus player's corner; and in a tournament that could be telling.

It is just a hunch, though. I am looking forward to the 20th when the faction decks are released and I can get some table time in to test my theory.

blakeh1

01-11-2010, 11:40 AM

While the tiers might offer a few advantages to specific builds, they are far from overpowered. We no more be at a disadvantage for not having our Tiers than we would be from not having the new warcaster/units. While they might be shiney and new, but they are just alternate tools available to a faction.

Ghyrrshyld

01-11-2010, 11:48 AM

Cryx is at more of a disadvantage by not getting access to a huge chunk of mercs than they are for a lack of Tier lists.

Unless of course, you buy the "eGoreshade will be fixed by his Tier List, you just wait" train of thought, and you HAVE to play eGoreshade.

The Happy Anarchist

01-11-2010, 11:50 AM

I'll tell you what.

You can forbid tier lists because they give players more choices when you forbid any models from Superiority, Legends and the new jacks until Hordes gets the same amount of options.

Mael

01-11-2010, 12:24 PM

And in that you are right, but that is not all the Squire does.

Well yes, I did cut out the reroll and the CTRL area benefit. I was being concise! ;)

Mael

01-11-2010, 12:27 PM

but I think enough to make things slightly skewed in the Magnus player's corner; and in a tournament that could be telling...It is just a hunch, though.

I can see where your coming from as these bonuses generally tend to look pretty impressive on paper compared to what they actually do during the game. I would say that it's extremely important to get some playtest experience in before jumping to conclusions though. Use your previously released MK2 rules to test until you have your faction deck in hand.

Temoinlanuit

01-14-2010, 11:22 AM

The grass is always greener, eh? I think a free spell per turn is much better than one extra focus three times a game.
True.. being able to arc crippling grasp, re-rolling misses, from an arc node within 16" of Deneghra is gr-

Oh wait.

Mael

01-14-2010, 11:32 AM

What's better in your opinion?

Rerolling to hit on a spell?
OR
Casting a brand new spell?

yankeefan

01-14-2010, 11:42 AM

GaspysInhaler

01-14-2010, 11:48 AM

What's better in your opinion?

Rerolling to hit on a spell?
OR
Casting a brand new spell?

The question isn't that simple.

The Skarlock cannot arc spells, which means he has to get close to the enemy. Unless he is cycling a spell like Ghost Walk or Scything Touch on friendlies, he will have to get within 10 inches of the enemy to have an impact.

He's DEF 14, ARM 12, with no stealth, no incorporeal. He has no appreciable melee abilities and is pathetically weak when it comes to resilience. He walks up to the enemy, fires off a spell, and then gets vaporized. He's not worth 2 points, and certainly not worth it the majority of our casters. Shooting is only going to get better in MK2 with the new releases, so there is even more reason not to field the overpriced "has-been" Skarlock.

I don't make cross-faction comparisons often, but the squire is head and shoulders above the Skarlock in almost every aspect.

Mael

01-14-2010, 12:02 PM

The question isn't that simple.

Alright, let me rephrase - what's better?

Casting a new non-arced spell?
OR
Rerolling to hit on a spell?

I think in terms of what the armies do they're reasonable close. Then again as I already said - the grass is always greener. I am getting a little OT here so this is my last post in the matter.

DemonCalibre

01-14-2010, 12:13 PM

Mael, you forgot to add, Casting a new non-arced spell Outside of your Warcasters activation.

Scarlocks aren't great offensive pieces no lie, but being able to get a free, non-warcaster dependent Ghost Walk is strong, a free cycling of Scything Touch, is also strong. He isn't omg amazing, but there is plenty there to be worth taking with some casters.

Temoinlanuit

01-14-2010, 12:32 PM

What's better in your opinion?

Rerolling to hit on a spell?
OR
Casting a brand new spell?
You mean rerolling on a spell arced through a node that's sitting at +2" outside your normal control range... or casting a brand new spell from a squishy solo that usually does defensive spells or dies?

I'll let you pick that one, good sir.

Gorbad

01-14-2010, 01:31 PM

I thought it's quite obvious that Cygnarans would gladly (really GLADLY) exchange Squire for Scarlock. And Squire would be far more better in our faction than among the Blues.

I think this is pretty much spot on. I'd love to have a Skarlock with eHaley for instance. The Squire is neat with her, but in no way does she needs it. Getting a free spell a turn though would be very useful as she got several spells you could almost always get good use out of(Deadeye, Telekinesis, Temporal Acceleration). And that's before you even starts targeting enemy models.

69Lazarus

01-14-2010, 02:15 PM

We have access to a re-roll on anything with the addition of the Combine.

zorrax

01-14-2010, 02:35 PM

We have access to a re-roll on anything with the addition of the Combine.

Not anything.
You can only re-roll attack, damage, or cmd dice.

I wish I could use it to re-roll things like continuous effects, jack column damage, or mostly, the random focus from Skarre's focus factory.

69Lazarus

01-14-2010, 02:53 PM

Not anything.
You can only re-roll attack, damage, or cmd dice.

Well, yeah, that's what I meant. I'd still say that is alot more than just a single offensive spell cast by your Warcaster.

Amalgam

01-20-2010, 03:58 PM

I field lists without the delicious BLT all the time. If a tier said not to use him, then I would not fret. Tiers seem to provide added versatility at the expense of a specific tool and in some cases no expense really.

While I do agree that models get released at varying times, this is different; all the models (save one warcaster per faction) have already been released.

Its like some one gives every one a set a cutlery and then hands you a spork...

Jyggdrasil

01-20-2010, 04:22 PM

...all the models (save one warcaster per faction) have already been released.

Not for the Retribution.

Kaptain Von

01-20-2010, 08:11 PM

On the matter of Tiers: dudes, we lost the Summer Rampage, right? Isn't that why our book's coming out last and why we get our new stuff last? I'm sure I remember some words to that effect last summer. I'm not sure why we lost, given how many fantastic players we apparently have, but we did. Someone had to come last, which means someone had to come last. That someone might be at a bit of a disadvantage, yeah: for a whole four months.

Maybe I'm just not as invested in this game as I should be, but I don't see the sky falling over this one.

Jyggdrasil

01-21-2010, 02:49 AM

On that note, can I just point out that part of the next league (Shattered Grounds) is set on the Scharde islands. Can we *please* do better this time because if bloody :mad:Cygnar:mad: win again, in our homelands, I am going to go from Cryxing to Crying. And nobody wants to see that.

The next advancement in WARMACHINE and HORDES leagues is mobilizing for action! The Shattered Grounds league throws players right into the trenches of the Iron Kingdoms with a wholly immersive experience as they fight for the glory of their faction. Each tour will focus on a specific location in the Iron Kingdoms that players worldwide will battle to control. The next stage of the war has come to western Immoren. Join the fight and determine the fate of the Iron Kingdoms with Shattered Ground League events! The Nightfall tour takes place in the Nightmare Kingdom of Cryx as the nations of the Iron Kingdoms fight for control of the Scharde Islands.

69Lazarus

01-21-2010, 03:21 AM

I'll join in this time. I apologize for not represnting before (unless I mean to support CYGNAR which is one of my other factions...lol)

Sobek

01-21-2010, 04:04 AM

I can't speak for anyone else, but in my mind, the most important thing that I got from the Merc Tier preview is that Epics will have different Tier lists than their Normal versions....

69Lazarus

01-21-2010, 04:14 AM

Good point. I'm very interested to see the tiers in general. Epics often play very different than their Prime version so it would make sense that their Tiers should be different...

blackear

01-21-2010, 01:31 PM

It's all very interesting with some good points made.

The last event I went to and the next one I am going to and at least one other I know of here has banned Tiered lists until all the factions have access to them and think that it will remain this way in the majority of UK independent events.

I don't buy this stuff about limiting the choice of models you want to take being a bad thing when some of the Tiered lists are so good. The Kalyssa Mage Hunter Tiered list for instance, giving the list access to a second UA is great, never mind the other stuff. There's a reason that UA's are FA1 normally. So yeah tiered lists limit choices but making the limited list much improved.

I like the Mage Hunter models, they're some of the best from the range and I really quite fancy picking up a 35 point Mage Hunter Strike force at some point.

hauntingexperience

01-21-2010, 03:37 PM

Mael

01-22-2010, 12:40 AM

The last event I went to and the next one I am going to and at least one other I know of here has banned Tiered lists until all the factions have access to them and think that it will remain this way in the majority of UK independent events.

Two things -

a) to reiterate: The Official Stance of Privateer Press is that Tiered lists are here to stay and will not be banned in any official tournaments.

b) Have you played against many Tier lists that you have found have unbalanced strengths?

Jyggdrasil

01-22-2010, 03:06 AM

WHAAAAATTTTTT??????
Where did you get this information???

Its from a newsletter that PP sends to distros/retailers.

The last event I went to and the next one I am going to and at least one other I know of here has banned Tiered lists until all the factions have access to them and think that it will remain this way in the majority of UK independent events.

Welcome to the slippery slope of 'house-rules'. Maybe you guys would like to add the screening rules back in while you are at it ?Alternatively, try actually playing against some tier lists.

Tier lists are official and legal PPress rules for tournament play. If anybody thinks they know better, I look forward to playing your totally awesome game when it hits the market.

Sobek

01-22-2010, 04:56 AM

I don't buy this stuff about limiting the choice of models you want to take being a bad thing when some of the Tiered lists are so good. The Kalyssa Mage Hunter Tiered list for instance, giving the list access to a second UA is great, never mind the other stuff. There's a reason that UA's are FA1 normally.

If you think that's bad, you haven't looked at Ravyn's Tier list, have you? :p

RuneGrey

01-22-2010, 06:22 AM

Personally, I hope we see things more like the Magnus tier lists than the Retribution tier lists. A lot of the ret tiers (read, all of them) consist of spamming 1 unit over and over again, just so you can get additional UAs or solos in your army. It really does make you into the ultimate 1 trick wonder.

That is, of course, my big fear for our tier lists: That we end up having to throw out multiple units of one type of trooper. Thankfully we have - or will have - several qualifying units (IE, 2 Bane units, 2 Satyxis units, 3 Pirate units) without having too much overlap, but imagine having to run 3 units of McThralls in a Terminus tier? Yeah, we might do that anyways... but the real issue is having a choice in the matter or not if we want the tier benefits.

Kaptain Von

01-22-2010, 07:06 AM

Welcome to the slippery slope of 'house-rules'. Maybe you guys would like to add the screening rules back in while you are at it ?Alternatively, try actually playing against some tier lists.

Tier lists are official and legal PPress rules for tournament play. If anybody thinks they know better, I look forward to playing your totally awesome game when it hits the market.

Whoa there.

House rules in general and composition rules for tournaments are a long-standing part of the UK wargaming tradition, across systems, as are variant formats for the tournament experience. The thought of a tournament meta with only pure, unadulterated, sacred-cow Steamroller or Hardcore events and dictates that mindset to the casual/club environment chills me to the very bones. I've seen it happen with other systems in parts of the UK and it's a game-killer.

I don't blame individual tournament organisers for making the call that Tiered lists present an unfair advantage to the factions that have them while others don't, and ruling them out of their event. I would have bother with said organisers trying to claim official status - let's be fair, you either play the official format or you acknowledge that you're unofficial, you can't have it both ways.

Also, you don't need to be a game designer to have a stance on game design. I can't remember what that particular logical fallacy is called, but it's one of the golden oldies. I'm all fine with you saying 'Tier lists aren't that bad', but 'if you think you know better, go make your own game' is a cheap and, to my mind, invalid shot.

Kaptain Von

01-22-2010, 07:11 AM

Jyggdrasil

01-22-2010, 08:13 AM

Also, you don't need to be a game designer to have a stance on game design. I can't remember what that particular logical fallacy is called, but it's one of the golden oldies. I'm all fine with you saying 'Tier lists aren't that bad', but 'if you think you know better, go make your own game' is a cheap and, to my mind, invalid shot.

True enough, but its one thing to have an opinion, and another entirely to directly contradict the game designers and make said opinion the rule at a tournament. Next stop - Goreshade banned at Mangled Metal tournaments (it happens).

I agree with this entirely. I think the Retribution ones are a side-effect of having a fairly limited range of stuff, though - I'd expect our Tiers to be a bit more open even than the Magnus ones. Remember, we've not seen a full-scale founding faction Tier list yet, so our basis for comparison is not entirely sound.

This is a very good point.

Gorbad

01-22-2010, 08:54 AM

but the real issue is having a choice in the matter or not if we want the tier benefits.

But you do have a choice. It's not like the tier lists are mandatory so if you don't like the choices in it, don't use it.

As such I hope they stay very limited. It should be a real choice running the tiers, not "everything you wanted in the list anyway" + bonuses!

You should have to give up a lot of things and I think Magnus tier might end up being a bit more open than most because it's the replacement for his old merc contract.

69Lazarus

01-22-2010, 09:09 AM

As such I hope they stay very limited. It should be a real choice running the tiers, not "everything you wanted in the list anyway" + bonuses!

Agreed. I'd like them to focus on themed lists not just power.

Jorek

01-22-2010, 10:14 AM

Well, imagine Magnus in 4Star. Yes, his Renegades cost 6 pts each, but he has MacNaille and Eyriss too. The Magnus Tier is a lot weaker than playing him pure 4*. So I think it´s fair that he gains something in return for loosing MacNaille and Eyriss. Thinking about it - his tier list doesn´t really compensate, don´t you think?

GaspysInhaler

01-22-2010, 10:30 AM

True enough, but its one thing to have an opinion, and another entirely to directly contradict the game designers and make said opinion the rule at a tournament. Next stop - Goreshade banned at Mangled Metal tournaments (it happens).

Usually there is a consensus when it comes to House rule tournaments. Something egregious or OP so that it raises enough of a fuss to change the original rule. I'm sure PP realizes that the sheer intricacy of war machine will lead to certain "ah crap" moments, like Snoreshade at Mangled Bane Thrall tournaments. A good TO will consult with the tournament players and hope to find some sort of consensus before changing any of the rules.

Personally, I have no problem with it. I remember playing in Mordheim leagues and the winning warbands would be massive Skaven gangs with a billion slings, or certain armies with each guy dual wielding daggers. Cheap, effective, and totally ridiculous when it came to the spirit of the game. Almost everyone agreed to not allow it after a short while.

Ghyrrshyld

01-22-2010, 10:42 AM

The next advancement in WARMACHINE and HORDES leagues is mobilizing for action! The Shattered Grounds league throws players right into the trenches of the Iron Kingdoms with a wholly immersive experience as they fight for the glory of their faction. Each tour will focus on a specific location in the Iron Kingdoms that players worldwide will battle to control. The next stage of the war has come to western Immoren. Join the fight and determine the fate of the Iron Kingdoms with Shattered Ground League events! The Nightfall tour takes place in the Nightmare Kingdom of Cryx as the nations of the Iron Kingdoms fight for control of the Scharde Islands.
Great. We are going to get kicked off of the Scharde islands in the fluff (because Cryx never wins ever).

Soulless and Homeless. Fantastic.

I field lists without the delicious BLT all the time. If a tier said not to use him, then I would not fret. Tiers seem to provide added versatility at the expense of a specific tool and in some cases no expense really.
You, sir gravely misunderstand what Tier lists do in general.

Kaptain Von

01-22-2010, 11:21 AM

Great. We are going to get kicked off of the Scharde islands in the fluff (because Cryx never wins ever).

Soulless and Homeless. Fantastic.

This, right here?

This sort of self-fulfilling prophecy?

This is why we fail.

Ghyrrshyld

01-22-2010, 11:36 AM

This, right here?

This sort of self-fulfilling prophecy?

This is why we fail.
No, you misunderstand what I am saying.

I am saying what we do in the league has little to no bearing on the story.

We fail as a faction in the fluff because if we win, the story ends. In addition, I don't see a way that they could write and then justify fluff where the other factions beat down the Cryxian Navy, force a landing on the Islands and everybody survives it. Either Cryx gets routed from the island, or the landing force is never heard from again.

There couldn't be another answer as far as I can see, short of Toruk flying over and making the entire island uninhabitable.

Kaptain Von

01-22-2010, 11:44 AM

No, you misunderstand what I am saying.

I misunderstand what is not made clear. Funny, that.

I sort of agree with the rest, but I'm prepared to see where they're going with this idea.

Ghyrrshyld

01-22-2010, 12:19 PM

I misunderstand what is not made clear. Funny, that.

I sort of agree with the rest, but I'm prepared to see where they're going with this idea.
I think when I said "In the fluff" I was pretty clear that I was talking about the fluff. And since the fluff has nothing to do with who wins the league... well... you were making a logical leap that had no bearing on my post.

They clearly have some relation, but it is not two ways. In that the fluff determines the league, not the league determining the fluff. Good thing, because otherwise we would all be wearing blue and polishing our muskets.

Jyggdrasil

01-23-2010, 01:34 PM

Here is the thing that I notice - Cryx 'loses' in all the fluff, but at the end of Legends we have a full fledged operational base on the mainland and, apparently, Lord Toruk's plans have all advanced to satisfaction.

So it seems that while we are losing the battles, we gaining ground in the long war.

Deathraven

01-23-2010, 02:30 PM

It's the law of fantasy fluff. The good guys always win against the odds and the bad guys will lose in the main story but seem to be getting more powerful in the background.

blackear

01-23-2010, 02:44 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackear
The last event I went to and the next one I am going to and at least one other I know of here has banned Tiered lists until all the factions have access to them and think that it will remain this way in the majority of UK independent events.

Welcome to the slippery slope of 'house-rules'. Maybe you guys would like to add the screening rules back in while you are at it ?Alternatively, try actually playing against some tier lists.

Tier lists are official and legal PPress rules for tournament play. If anybody thinks they know better, I look forward to playing your totally awesome game when it hits the market.

Hmmm, this is not the attitude that I expect from a Pressganger aren't you supposed to be some sort of ambassador for the game?

Anyway I've highlighted a bit of my post that you quoted that you may have seemed to have missed the first time around.

I'm sure that Tiered lists will be fine once every faction has access to their book, otherwise altering the FA on unit attachments and giving units additional abilities such as Advance Deployment for one or two factions will probably put those factions without tiered list at a disadvantage simple by not having the option, regardless of choices limited or otherwise.