Mk II Old Witch--MIA?

[stampdog316]

So my luck I bought and painted up the OW and Scrapjack right before the MK II playtest started. I have never used her before but really would like to get her out on the table. I have never seem her played in my area so the surprise factor would be high if nothing else, but there is a shortage of posts concerning her MK II version. What units work best for her? Best Jacks? I have almost everything Khador except Beast 09, beserker, and Assault Kommandos. Any help would be appreciated.

[lce]

used her. very hard to play

-she have no range weapon
-bad spell list (for wizard)
-only one offensive spell
-no fatal feat
-only +3 jack pts

+very nice miniatures
+most mobility caster in warmachine (Unseen Path)
+one arc node in khador
+very interesting to play

combo 1: Scrap charge, with Slaughter kill all models in unit one by one, then Witch teleport him by Unseen Path
WRONG combo 2: Feat + Gallows

[marskitten]

Scrapjack is possibly my favorite jack. It goes from good to ZOMG amazing if you let the witch get hit. Usually I leave her open to an attack or two on their weak flank on the turn before it gets into melee for two reason.

1. +2 to mat/damage/speed
2. Overextending foes are great.

So you now have a pathfinder with reach, mat 9 and 8 speed. It should wreck most infantry once the charges are over and everyone is clumped up. I've found the OW herself is pretty much there to keep the army moving, pop feat and pop smoke. Slaughter runs with the OW simply do not happen anymore with new unseen path. Mat 9 Pow 12 will go through IFP in shield wall, most infantry isn't that good.

Oh and I just won a hardcore tourney with her. So she's definitely competitive there.

Her feat:
re:Ice Combo #2 doesn't work anymore, has to voluntarily end its activation in her field to take the hit. Her feat is probably one of the better hard core feats as it means that you're handing out free power 14s because in hard core you've only get an hour to seal the deal. Meaning they MUST enter. If not they probably lost.


But her favorite jacks are:
Behemoth: Her offensive spells suck, use the mortars instead. They ignore smoke and forests so you can shoot through pretty much everything. Also covers her big weakness: heavy armor.
Destroyer: When the behemoth costs too much, go here instead
Decimator: Shorter range, more shots. Same forest ignoring goodness.

Auto includes:
Gorman - Free Smoke cloud for her and Scrappy's Prowl. invaluable. Also black oil bomb, acid bomb and rust bomb: debuffs, and clear small infantry clumps well
Koldun Lord: 2/3rds of the time you're running scrapjack. Free focus points make her into a 9 focus caster. She's very like sorscha, if she casts spells she's always hurting for focus. Also magical sprays and a minor debuff doesn't hurt.
Mechanics: scrapjack has a small grid and will get wrecked pretty easily, get it fixed, also other jacks.

What she needs: She can deal with positioning enemy jacks with gallows and scrapjack, scrapjack can clear infantry clumps rather easily, what you need is heavy removal. She cannot help her troops hit or damage in anyway. So units need to be self contained and flexible. I almost feel she requires beast-09 or the bears as her obligatory beat sticks. But a pair of juggernauts plus mechanics will also work. Without these she pretty much autoloses to super heavies like Karchev and Butcher. Her/Scrappy's Pow 12/13 claws aren't going to finish anything.

Other considerations:
Wardog: not required, but against Retribution and others that ignore magic, a game changer. Makes her hard to hit even for guys like Narn in melee.
Bokur for OW: Surprisingly useful. Takes Eiyrss bolts like a champ and definitely softens up enemy casters after their failed assassination runs. Also: makes a great slam ball for scrapjack.

Both: Makes her stupidly hard to kill. If you fear death, OW can go defensive with IF, Wardog, Stealth, Bokur and hide in a forest. Stealth, Def 18/20 vs ranged, def 20 against melee, can STILL pass one shot over to the Bokur AND have armor 21. Oh and pop feat and punish those who need to move to get her

[whats82]

Old witch is not a straight forward caster, her style is not axe to face as many other Khador casters tend toward, she is like Zerkova and plays the denial game, though she can (and should) stay further away from the front line.

Overall she is a tier2 caster in mk2, lacking a decisive combo that many other top tier casters have to secure a kill, but she does have a good selection of abilities to support her army. Keep in mind that lacking a distinct kill condition or astronomical threat range, Old Witch plays the support and attrition game. If an opportunity presents itself, go for the kill, but otherwise don't count on a single stroke of victory with her.

[armystong101st]

She may have only +3 jack points but let us also take into consideration that while others get +5 or 6 that she brings a jack with her that also happens to be khadors only arcnode. she also allows her battlegroup to ignore cloud effects and forests. Other than that i have used her only maybe 5 times and yes she is a tricky caster but she can do a decent amount of damage with Avatar of Slaughter and, Gallows. pulling the model into melee and letting loose or you can arc gallows and let scrappy hold down the caster for a turn while lining up a charge on their castor for the next turn. She deffinately lost a some of nice tricks though.

[BlitzR]

used her. very hard to play

-she have no range weapon
-bad spell list (for wizard)
-only one offensive spell
-no fatal feat
-only +3 jack pts


-First off, yes, she has no ranged weapon...I won't argue that one.
-BAD SPELL LIST, are you sure you are looking at the right Warcaster. She has an insanely good spell list. A solid straight out offensive spell with added perks, a spell that allows herself or Scrappy murder units, DEF buff, AOE of denial, a teleport spell and being able to grant path finder (just what your Demo Corps needed!).
-One offensive spell, well I guess that all depends on just how creative you can be with Murder of Crows. But is you look more closely at her spell list, the only one there that does not make it easier to kill the enemy is Iron Flesh. Sure, only one is marked 'OFF', but it is all on how you make use of the tools at your disposal.
-No, the feat is not fatal (as long as you are a warjack), but is pretty much means that your opponent is going to stay exactly where they are for their turn. In effect, it gives you a full turn to position you force for the hammer blow while seriously denying you opponents options to maneuver to mitigate damage.
-Yes, she does only have +3 jack pts, but then you also get the coolest light jack in the game for free...and with the abilities on Scrap Jack, it would be worth at least 3pts. So in effect, she gets at least 6 warjack pts, you only get to choose how to use 3 of them.


combo 1: Scrap charge, with Slaughter kill all models in unit one by one, then Witch teleport him by Unseen Path

Or, the better way to do things (if the situation permits) is to charge in with Zevanna (with Slaughter), murder then unit (and gain all those lovely soul tokens) and then teleport back to the Scrap Jack.

Orboros players love the Kaya yo-yo, now Khador gets a turn at something similar.


combo 2: Feat + Gallows

Does not work...Gallows pushes a model, and the damage from the feat only triggers when it advances and ends it's movement in Zevanna's control area.

I am not sure why people think Gallows sucks. It has great range with 10" and a solid POW13. The only thing I don't like is that the push is D6, I wished PP had of made it 3+D3. Even as it is, the number of times I have used Gallows to drag warjacks and beasts into charge range of my own warjacks or infantry is a LOT...nearly every game. The fact I can channel the spell is just gravy.

[Balewin]

curses! now I want to play OW! and i'm still getting my pButch game figured out! (no but i'm kidding I love you khador forum :) )

[Kommissar Golovko]

When Kaya does her Yo Yo, you're pretty sure something is going to die. With Mk. 1 OW, this was possible. With Mk. 2, not really but for sure you know OW or Scrappy will get out of the tough situation it is in.

As spells go, they're good but any synergy of her spells went out the window in Mk. 2 compared to Mk. 1. OW was hard enough to learn in Mk. 1. In Mk. 2, she's much more harder to use.

[BlitzR]

When Kaya does her Yo Yo, you're pretty sure something is going to die. With Mk. 1 OW, this was possible. With Mk. 2, not really but for sure you know OW or Scrappy will get out of the tough situation it is in.

The big difference is that when Kaya yo-yos something (one thing) will die. It is a nearly pointless exercise against infantry. A Zevanna yo-yo should always be aimed at infantry as neither herself or scrappy have the hitting power to take on jacks or beasts. Besides, you don't really get any value from Slaughter against either of those targets. Single wound models are the key.

As for no synergy...I am again not sure we are looking at the same cards here?

While she only has two spells that directly help friendly units, they are two fairly important spells.
The fact that Weald Secrets can be cast on a Warjack means it is possible to charge targets on the other side of forests (Augury allows you to ignore the forest for LOS and declare the charge in the first place). Camouflage is just icing on the cake.
I don't really need to talk about Iron Flesh, since when was +3DEF a bad thing...just a pity it cannot be cast on a Warjack (DEF13 Juggernauts!, still not all that hard to hit)

She is a far more cerebral Warcaster than nearly any other available to Khador. Zerkova being the only other that comes close.

In end, I really like most of what the Old Witch brings to the table, she offers a great opportunity to play something a somewhat different within the same faction.

[Waaargh]

I have faced her once, and my thought were she's anything but weak. Luckily she was held back a little and just used the Murder of Crows and her feat. During the turn she used Field of Talons, I had advanced recklessly forward, so she held my army in an iron grib. Anything that moved and ended within 14" of her would suffer a POW 14 hit , and I couldn't even charge with my warbeasts (totally hosing eHoarluk Doomshaper's feat). Her ability to generate a damaging cloud effect, and for her Augury ability to have warjacks ignore cloud effects and forests for LOS is simply amazing, IMHO. On top of that she can go punish/wipe out any group of infantry that decided to come within 8" with Avatar of Slaughter, and skirt to safety with Unseen Path.

I think she seems awesome. But she is a scalpel not an axe.

[Avecrien]

She's an absolute infantry blender. Just make sure you've got an axe or two lying around for the heavy stuff. I'm really enjoying her right now, especially on terrain heavy boards where she can flex her control powers.

[Kommissar Golovko]

The big difference is that when Kaya yo-yos something (one thing) will die. It is a nearly pointless exercise against infantry.

Not necessarily true. It depends what she's yo-yoing. If it's a beast, usually one thing will die but even then, a beast placed within reach of infantry can kill a few as well. If Kaya is the one yo-yoing, she can kill a lot of infantry as well. Granted she must make sure there would be nothing threatening her afterwards.



A Zevanna yo-yo should always be aimed at infantry as neither herself or scrappy have the hitting power to take on jacks or beasts. Besides, you don't really get any value from Slaughter against either of those targets. Single wound models are the key.

This would be good if OW can get to infantry and Slaughter them then yoyo out. She can't yoyo in because she can't take advantage of the move portion of Slaughter. This means OW should be in front most of the times and this assumes the opponent will be nice enough to put low arm single wounds her way.



As for no synergy...I am again not sure we are looking at the same cards here?

PDF at the moment but most likely. :) She had quite a lot of synergy in Mk 1 which are now gone.



While she only has two spells that directly help friendly units, they are two fairly important spells.
The fact that Weald Secrets can be cast on a Warjack means it is possible to charge targets on the other side of forests (Augury allows you to ignore the forest for LOS and declare the charge in the first place). Camouflage is just icing on the cake.
I don't really need to talk about Iron Flesh, since when was +3DEF a bad thing...just a pity it cannot be cast on a Warjack (DEF13 Juggernauts!, still not all that hard to hit)


I'm not talking about those two. Those two are buffs and not synergy. The synergy I am talking about that she had before was UP and Slaughter, Strangling Chains and her Feat, Murder of Crows and her Feat.



She is a far more cerebral Warcaster than nearly any other available to Khador. Zerkova being the only other that comes close.

She is that. You really need to be careful with her. She doesn't really have spells which buff attack or damage output, jacks or infantry. She doesn't buff stats of infantry or jacks other than Scrappy other than Def and even then you take a -1 SPD penalty which prevents you from charging if you upkeep it. Even Zerkova has Razor Wind which can help her get the caster kill.


In end, I really like most of what the Old Witch brings to the table, she offers a great opportunity to play something a somewhat different within the same faction.

Yes she is different. She will have her uses especially in the scenarios but she's certainly gone down to second even third tier caster. She was different in Mk 1 but still had that Khador feel about her. Opponents were very wary of her to the point of being afraid, respecting her abilities. In Mk 2, wary yes, but not afraid. She's lost very much of her oomph. I don't mind losing some stuff but losing to the point where she is now? Nah too much for me that I prefer Zerkova now and that says a lot since I totally didn't like Zerkova in Mk 1.

[Musketeer]

Frankly in my opinion she is Khador's mkII Rodney Dangerfield; she don't get no respect. Even sadder is I think that is justified. She went from being a very tricky caster to play with notable weaknesses and who struck fear into opposing armies to a toothless hag who is far to easy to counter and a spell which is useless if her light jack is trashed.

[Waaargh]

Yes she is different. She will have her uses especially in the scenarios but she's certainly gone down to second even third tier caster. She was different in Mk 1 but still had that Khador feel about her. Opponents were very wary of her to the point of being afraid, respecting her abilities. In Mk 2, wary yes, but not afraid. She's lost very much of her oomph. I don't mind losing some stuff but losing to the point where she is now? Nah too much for me that I prefer Zerkova now and that says a lot since I totally didn't like Zerkova in Mk 1.

She sounds like she just isn't your type of warcaster, which is fine there are plenty of others out there. To me she is still able to do a whole lot within the limitations of her Focus.

[Kommissar Golovko]

Sorry but she was my type of caster in Mk 1. Not in Mk 2. Just as there are plenty who think she's "fine" there are also plenty who think she lost a lot. I could do a lot more with her on Mk 1 tactics-wise than I could in Mk 2. Yes she excels at area control but that's about it. She won't excel in assassinations, which she was good at in Mk 1 and with the new formation rules, even doing her Slaughter runs is suspect.

And yes, I forgot about that important tidbit Musketeer mentioned. Trash Scrappy and she loses Uneen Path which is really integral to her survival.

I've played OW a couple of times now and I am not as aggressive with her as I was in Mk 1. She's now really and literally the "Old" Witch.