Castigator's special attack?

[meleemadness]

CASTIGATOR

Combustion (��Attack) - Models within 2˝ of this model suffer a POW 12 fire damage roll ICON and the Fire continuous effect ICON. This model can make additional melee attacks after making this special attack.

So, does this mean the Castigator NEEDS to use focus to do additional attacks or can it use its two normal fist attacks and then buy more attacks with focus?

[Fellio]

I believe if you use a special attack, you cannot buy additional attacks nor use your initial attacks.

[Justicator]

Yes. The castigator needs to use focus to do additional attacks. Most *-actions/attacks are stand alone and don't allow for more. But Castigators does.

I still think Castigator is over-costed though.

[Kypt]

Seems there is some confusion here. Most (if not all) * attacks allow you to buy extra attacks with fury/focus. In order to do the * attack you give up your initial attacks so any extras are ok if you buy.

* Actions, however, are different. You give you your ENTIRE combat action to perform these so no chance to buy extra as the entire combat action is taken. Hopefully this clears things up a bit better.

[Lanz]

Kypt pretty much nailed it. In the case of the castigator, using combustion takes the place of your initial two fist attacks. You can still buy more after, but you don't get combustion AND your initial attacks.

[meleemadness]

Got it, thanks.

[strangedane]

The Castigator is awsome, one thing is the combustion, another is the dobbelt hand throw it can make with MAT 8 (choir), meaning it can easaly throw an enemy heavy at the enemy caster, and with a boots be quite sure to hit!

[Razhem]

If it could still charge and combust, I'd be all hell yeah about it, but by loosing those extra 3", it looses any potential as an alpha strike infantry clearer, doesn't help either that the vanquisher can do a similar function from farther away. The castigator is a nice jack, no doubt, and having throws is something I neglect till I start cursing in my head why I can't throw the weapon to the ground and chuck something, but the vanquisher has better antiinfantry, the Reckoner has better melee, threat range and a gun and the castigator is sort of in between both chassis bringing in power attacks as his own niche.

It certainly isn't horrible as some people would have you beleive, I just feel more comfortable with a Reckoner on my lists.

Also, the castigator has that wording because although combustion is a special attack, he may be able to do it without being engaged and it is always nice to have something clearing possible rules debates from the get go.

[Moonblade]

If it could still charge and combust..

Wait, why can't he do this again?

Page 47 of Mk2:
"A charging model that ends its charge movement with
its charge target in its melee range has made a successful
charge. It must use its action to make a combat action,
choosing to make either initial melee attacks or (if it can
make a special attack with a melee weapon) a melee
special attack."

Is it because Combust is made not from its weapons, therefore is illegal to do in a charge?

[WielderOfTheTrueLaw]

I use the castigator as a support jack to my other jacks. I usually have him chuck enemy warjacks at an important enemy or towards another one of my jacks who then precedes to wail on it. I just love it when the avatar gets 5 auto hitting attacks POW 19 attacks.

[CopeSR]

Wait, why can't he do this again?

Page 47 of Mk2:
"A charging model that ends its charge movement with
its charge target in its melee range has made a successful
charge. It must use its action to make a combat action,
choosing to make either initial melee attacks or (if it can
make a special attack with a melee weapon) a melee
special attack."

Is it because Combust is made not from its weapons, therefore is illegal to do in a charge?

Yup. Also if you have a Retribution book handy you will see under the Phoenix that it specifies (in the tactics insert) that you cannot charge and use the Combustion special attack.

I fully expect the Castigator to use the same rules for the same ability.

That said the Castigator is a fantastic jack that I don't use enough. I admit to having favorites. Avatar/ Crusader/ Vanquisher/ FoS/ Guardian/ and soon the Templar.

Its a wonderful problem to have when you love all your jacks so much, you lament that there just aren't enough games played to use them all on a regular basis.

[notsoevil]

That said the Castigator is a fantastic jack that I don't use enough. I admit to having favorites. Avatar/ Crusader/ Vanquisher/ FoS/ Guardian/ and soon the Templar.

The Guardian? For real?

It is clearly not worth it's high point cost when you can take a Reckoner instead for cheaper.

Heavy w/ Reach and Arc Node is all it is now. With the loss of its flags, what's the point?

Sad the Castigator can't charge and do Combustion. Definitely takes a notch out of his belt of usefulness at his point level.

[CopeSR]

I like heavies. Always have. In MK I, I generally brought 2 heavies and 2 lights in a 750 game. Now in MK II I get to go overboard and have a blast with it and still do well!

With that said, sometimes I want an arcnode but don't want to spend points on a jack that is not a heavy. Enter the Guardian. I get my cake and I can eat it too.

I guess it comes down to a personal thing. I must have at least 3 heavies at 50 points.

[Mutton]

The Guardian? For real?

It is clearly not worth it's high point cost when you can take a Reckoner instead for cheaper.

Heavy w/ Reach and Arc Node is all it is now. With the loss of its flags, what's the point?

Sad the Castigator can't charge and do Combustion. Definitely takes a notch out of his belt of usefulness at his point level.

The Guardian is great as a second arc node with eSevvy or as the primary one with Harby; if you're bringing an Arc Node, spellslinging isn't your primary form of attack, it's a great choice.

[Masanori]

guys, unless we are playing trolls, the Guardian is an arc node that can trample through things, not take the freestrikes, and than arc for you. The revenger is still cool, but once he is locked in he can't do ****. not the same for a heavy warjack - trample-trample-trample!..;p

[Lanz]

I think the guardian is less popular a 'jack because really it was meant for higher point games, where you'll have other heavies to move around rather than just that. Not as many people play up in the point levels where you'd have 2 casters, and that's where 'jacks like the Guardian really shine.

[squidstudios]

I like the Castigator for the throws and for Combustion, certainly, and also because with Severius + Choir it can make up to 5 POW 19 Fire continuous attacks. And Combusting after a charge is fantastic!

I like the Guardian too, but more as a back-up arc node. He makes nice bait, as he is too slow to get the drop on most enemies going after him...but not too slow to get into preemptive arc node range. So my caster can generally toast infantry or incoming jacks through the arc node, softening things for the Guardian to deal with itself.

My node of choice is still the BoV though, hands down. That guy can get out of so many scrapes, it's a life saver. I say worth every point, for all three of these jacks.

[Demeritus]

And Combusting after a charge is fantastic!


You can no longer combust after a charge like you could in mk1.

[Lanz]

I like the Guardian too, but more as a back-up arc node. He makes nice bait, as he is too slow to get the drop on most enemies going after him...



Actually, his threat range puts him in a better charge position than something like a Castigator. Spd 4 +3 on a charge + reach = 9" threat. Speed 5 + 3 on a charge + no reach = 8.5" threat.

The best threat range we have is the Avatar and Reckoner, at speed 5 and reach for a 10" threat. Moreso the reckoner if you take the gun into account on a charge.

Once people start using the templar a lot, they'll start to notice that a Guardian is pretty similar to use.

[lastspartacus]

The castigator seems overcosted to me as well. How many points is he again?
Because the Vanquisher does his intended job of 'clears infantry but also has some heavy punch' much better.

[Lanz]

Castigator is 8, which is pretty good, really. A guardian is pretty overpriced too on it's own at 9. I would see a Guardian being a great pSevvy 'jack alongside the BoV. With Vision and Infusion, a Guardian would be auto-hitting most heavies, so boosting the attack roll would give really good odds of setting off Critical Pitch, which is probably one of the most brutal critical effects in the game.

[lastspartacus]

Ya, thought 8. If the vanquisher in its current form didnt exist, it would be a cool jack. As of now though, it does nothing another jack cant do better.

Sad guardian is 9, but it pays arcnode tax, which is more a service to Hordes than anything else. cest la vie.

[Dewbakuk]

The ability to perform Double Handed Throws shouldn't be overlooked. I've killed casters by hitting them with their own Jacks and taken out unhurt heavy jacks by throwing them into the open and getting easy hits with the rest of the army.

[jandrese]

I think the main reason the Castigator is 8 points is because it has access to 2-H Throw. Without it, I think the jack would be a solid 7 points, but 2-H throws are amazing (and better in Mk II than they were in Mk I!).

Combustion is also pretty decent, but in practice I've never had much luck hitting more than 2 or 3 models with it unless the Castigator was just charged by a whole unit that somehow failed to kill it. The fact that it's not tied to a system means you always get 2 dice with it though, and one shouldn't discount the fact that it autohits. Autohitting boostable POW 14s are nothing to sneeze at.

[notsoevil]

I don't mind the Castigator at 8 actually. I'm only surprised by the Guardian being 9.

[Cuagau]

I always liked the idea of setting eveything on first for eFeoras feat. Just keeps the jacks working until theres a big brawl, and turn up the heat.

[Lanz]

I dunno. Performing a double-hand throw means walking(not charging) up to the target, spending a focus point, losing your initial attacks, then throwing the model with a normal throw ruling.

By comparison, a Guardian's Critical Pitch. The Guardian is MAT6, +2 from a choir, (+1 if sevvy is around). You boost it's attack roll, and you're minimum roll outside of an auto-miss is 12(13 with sevvy), which will hit the vast majority of heavies(and a good amount of lights), meaning that so long as you don't roll tripple-1s, and any possible combination of the dice are doubles, critical pitch goes off, tossing the target from a reach distance, performable on a charge, and causing more damage.

For me a castigator is a caster-specific 'jack. You use it with feora to set things on fire, or with Amon to build up synergy. With just about every other caster, something else is better.

[DocT]

Someone said earlier:

"also because with Severius + Choir it can make up to 5 POW 19 Fire continuous attacks"

I'm new to all this (and my Castigator gets his first coat of paint tonight). How exactly do you get these 5 attacks?

[notsoevil]

Two initial attacks (one for each fist), then 3 additional attacks bought with Focus.

[Mutton]

I think he's just talking about loading it up and buying more attacks. Thing with the Castigator is, for the same points I can get reach, a gun with assault, two more DEF, and a point of PS. Really, I just have trouble justifying the Castigator over that. Having two open fists just doesn't do it for me over the proposition of losing reach. A Castigator will do 2 more damage than a Reckoner, true, but the Reckoner's extended threat and gun make it so much more useful. It's too good for 7pts, true, but not good enough compared to the 8pters.

[Soylent]

Two initial attacks that you don't need to spend focus to make. After that you can spend the 3 focus to make additional attacks to bring it to 5.

[strangedane]

I'm going to test just how much I can get out of double hand throws, that's gonna make me decide.

[CopeSR]

2 initial attacks and 3 more attacks from focus.

I take the Guardian much more than the Castigator. Again mainly because I want the heavy and the arc node. Not to mention that the Guardian has a massive damage grid. Its the largest grid for any Protectorate jack.

Powerful charge and choir puts the Guardian at MAT 10. Thats a real good chance to get a crit. The Guardian also fills a unique roll for its points. 9 may seem allot, but its better than 12. That is the min amount for a heavy and arcnode when not using the Guardian. I'd much rather use those 3 points for something else, like 3 more points to another heavy or to a light I like (like the repenter or dervish).

The Castigator is just suffering right now (for me) due to the Vanquisher. I loved this jack in MK I and now I have a hard time making a list without it. It fills a much similar role as the Castigator. Granted it can't do the DHTs and is not as good in melee.

I just need to start putting the Castigator into more lists.

EDIT: wow real slow on my reply. I blame the girl friend who kept slapping my keyboard!