I ask, are Angeli still viable?

[can_i_post?]

I have never had the pleasure of commanding a legion list or even versus on the field. But, as an enthusiast I seem to gather that, Legion, from a competitive standpoint, really had its wind knocked out of its sails when Wings were retooled. Thus, the two turn alpha strike lists comprised of Angeli and Seraphs flying over head of the enemy and skewering enemy casters is a bit more difficult to do, from what I gather.

I do not mean to rehash old wounds again, but as someone that is new to legion when it comes to the field experience and wanting to capitalize on this factions claim to fame, alpha strike, I ask, are Angeli still viable?

I single out Angeli because they are the ones who have to cross enemy lines to aid in alpha strikes, where as Seraph?s do not. Without the ability to ignore free strikes is the Angelius still viable for an eThag or Vayl ?wing? centric build?

If not, what purpose does it have? (Do not take this question as condescending, but as optimistic)

Hopefully, this thread will prove useful for new players in both tactical list building and on the pocket book.

[ShockwaveIIC]

Angeli are now only viable in the way you chose if you run with Saeryn due to her feat.

Doing a second turn Alpha/Assassination with Angels and Seraphs would require either
eLylyth
your opponent giving you the game.

Even with eLylyth it is only a chance.

[Blighted Messiah]

i used one friday in a 35 pts game with vayl. when combined with leash and vayl's feat- the angelius is a nasty hit snd run beast. 2 inch reach, her pow 14 armor piercer can pretty much take out a light in 1 hit on a charge. if it doesn't then buy another attack.

keep her 2 inches from her target so she doesn't draw a free attack when vayl yanks her back. wash rinse repeat.

[Defenstrator]

It is viable but has to be used in a very different way than in MKI. Before I would normally jam it (or them) down my opponents throat, mangaling something, and then zip off to the primary target. Now they aren't as likely to kill tough things like jacks because disabling is gone, but more importantly they can't leave and go zipping through the enemy to get at the key target (warlock/waraster).

In MKII the Angelius is even more of a precision instrument. Use that Flame Jet to soften up targets or kill key solos, then move in and kill something while staying out of retaliation range. They still work well in pairs, the mutal support giving them the punch they need to pounce on a location and kill/cripple enough to prevent major retaliation against them. They do struggle against higher ARM though. While the Thrust is devastating, if it fails to do enough damage against a hard target further tail attacks are unlikely to do the job.

Probably our best Angelius warlock isn't Saeryn but Vayl, for a couple of reasons. Vayl has Incite, which makes the Angelius considerably more deadly. The extra damage is a needed boost against hard targets, and being MAT 8 turns the Angelius into a true infantry mower. Second is Leach. It makes the Angelius's high threat range massive. You can either use it to drag the Angelius upfield for a super far alpha strike, or let the Angelius charge in (without the benefit of Incite) and then drag it back out of harms way. Third is her feat, which allows the Angelius to charge in and then retreat to safety, or push forward into the opponents army. I recommend retreating to safety, having had too many Angelius's killed by the targets they are trying to get close to. But if it's a squishy target that can't retaliate effectively then go for it.

[Garth]

Only with Saeryn for her Feat.
Perhaps for E-Lylyth against heavy targets and for 2 shots.


Otherwise I rather play Typhon and Carnivean...

[Soulblighter]

I dont find them viable except in very specific circumstances (saeryn's feat). They just dont do enough damage or survive long enough to justify their 9 points. Right now theyre just woefully underpowered suicide torpedoes.

[Neutralyze]

angels with Saeryn and possibly Vayl or Elylyth. the only issue i have with Vayl and leash is that i am greedy when it comes to damage output so i would cast incite first, leash it up and send the angel out to make up its points. if i want it to live i would use my feat.

[blitzmonkey]

angels with Saeryn and possibly Vayl or Elylyth. the only issue i have with Vayl and leash is that i am greedy when it comes to damage output so i would cast incite first, leash it up and send the angel out to make up its points. if i want it to live i would use my feat.

PLylyth likes an angel as well. As the way the numbers work, you divide before you subtract.

So against an armor 20 for example, it is halved to 10, then subtracted to 7. Dice plus 7 is sexy. Plus free charges are always nice.

[ShockwaveIIC]

PLylyth likes an angel as well. As the way the numbers work, you divide before you subtract.

So against an armor 20 for example, it is halved to 10, then subtracted to 7. Dice plus 7 is sexy. Plus free charges are always nice.
I might be mistaken, but I thought that the OP wanted a pair of Angelius (Angeli).

A single Angelius, run well with pLylyth (As you said) and Absylonia (Forced Evo), but both of these prefer only one.

Duel Angels, Saeryn, eLylyth and I can see the argument for Vayl.

[blitzmonkey]

I might be mistaken, but I thought that the OP wanted a pair of Angelius (Angeli).

A single Angelius, run well with pLylyth (As you said) and Absylonia (Forced Evo), but both of these prefer only one.

Duel Angels, Saeryn, eLylyth and I can see the argument for Vayl.

You're right. My apologies.

[Necra-Chi]

Angels are also OK with E-Thags, for similar reasons to being Ok with Vayl. Dragonstorm lest them punch a hole with their activation and then hit something important with the feat move and attack. Also I find that a seraph under glory of everblight can often soften something up just enough that a single angel can finish it with the thrust which si useful due to overtake.

And of course there is always the argument that two angels under manifest destiny kill ANYTHING. It costs 18 points, but hey, 11-12 points of Carnivean/Typhon won't even do significant damage to a buffed Avatar in my experience. Having a module that can take anything on has a value in its own right, even if the lack of attacks lacks synergy with Vayl and E-Thag.

[Hjelmen0]

I've been using the Angelius as an infantry-mulcher, with double-duty as a finisher for large targets. Parasite or Breath Stealer coupled with reach and overtake, make the Angelius pretty good at carving up infantry. Incite and MD ditto, but those spells will make any beast into a veritable rabbit of Caerbannog!
Armour piercing has been reduced to "gravy" when I take an Angelius. One Angelius usually isn't enough to finish a hard target off, so it's much better used in a finisher role, or for whomping infantry.

Bringing two works with Saeryn (because it gives us one turn of Mk1 glory), but I haven't built a list with any other warlock with more than one (if any at all).

The animus is a total loss... I've never used it in any Mk2 game at all. I haven't even found a situation where I was even considering it.

[alchahest]

even without having a good animus, the beast is solid for 9 points. give it a useful animus and it will be a very high nine if not an undercosted ten.

[Necra-Chi]

I have used the animus often because I wanted to load up on fury anyway (equilibrium) but never remembered to actually trigger it (plenty of opportunities with legionnaires and striders dying nearby).

[ShockwaveIIC]

even without having a good animus, the beast is solid for 9 points. give it a useful animus and it will be a very high nine if not an undercosted ten.Disagree slightly, I feel the Angelius now is worth 8.7 or 8.8 giving it a decent animus (Like Precision Strike) I feel would put it at around 9.3 or 9.4 if it was to gain something as good as Tenacity or Slipstream that would put at 9.6 or 9.7 thus starting the whole 9 or 10 point beast debate.

[Neutralyze]

what do you think the angelius needs to label it 9 pts then?

some of the proposed solutions seem to push it up to 10 pts.

i wouldnt mind it being 8 pts in all honestly.

[Soulblighter]

what do you think the angelius needs to label it 9 pts then?

1) A P+S16 bite attack to bring its damage output more in-line with other 9 point heavies.

2) 3 more wounds to give it the same survivability as other 9 point heavies.

3) A better animus which reinforces the Angelius role as a firststrike/disruption warbeast.

[blitzmonkey]

1) A P+S16 bite attack to bring its damage output more in-line with other 9 point heavies.

2) 3 more wounds to give it the same survivability as other 9 point heavies.

3) A better animus which reinforces the Angelius role as a firststrike/disruption warbeast.

Then it wouldn't be a 9 point beast.

I doubt 1 is going to happen ever.

2 I could see happening.

3 I think is where playstyle difference comes into play. I think precision strike/prey would be a great animus on it. Precision would make it more alpha strike, prey would make it more disruption.

All in all, 1 is the biggest one I have a problem with. That is an accomplishment since you and I rarely agree. :)

The prey thing btw would be triggered against the model/unit that killed the friendly.

[Soulblighter]

Then it wouldn't be a 9 point beast.

Why? Whats wrong with wanting the Angelius to be every bit as good as the Feral Warpwolf. With those changes the two warbeasts would be roughly equal.

[Neutralyze]

Why? Whats wrong with wanting the Angelius to be every bit as good as the Feral Warpwolf. With those changes the two warbeasts would be roughly equal.

reasons why angel is 9 pts.

eyeless sight as an innate ability, Flight as an innate ability, SPD 7 with reach and an AP attack.

the reason why the warpwolf is better in everyones eyes is because it has higher average damage output, MAT and has access to his own spd buff and animus( argus) to ignore LOS and other things. also his animus is good as well against beasts.

however if you go by just abilities alone well thats why the angel is 9 pts. all those abilities.

[Karam]

Why? Whats wrong with wanting the Angelius to be every bit as good as the Feral Warpwolf. With those changes the two warbeasts would be roughly equal.

The feral Warp Wolf is not a standard for 9pt heavies. It is at the top of the heap as these things go and someone has to have the best. I also don't begrudge circle players it either. I feel it is mostly needed to make circle as viable against WM as they are now.

[OldOneEye]

We already have our Warpwolf in the Carnivean, like it or not. It's not 9 points like the Warpwolf, but has some advantages of its own that take it up to 11 points. We don't need a second Warpwolf, and the Angelius isn't going to be one.

Not once have you (Soulblighter) compared our warbeasts to ANY other 9-pt. beast in the game. The ONLY other model that seems to exist in the game is the Warpwolf, and I'm with Karam on this-- someone has to be #1, and that someone is the FWW right now.

Warbeasts can be good without being a Warpwolf. If you think the Angelius needs a "fix", focus on that. How can it get fixed and still be an Angelius?

[Neutralyze]

i also forgot to mention that all our heavies have a ranged option as well. only 3 lights and two lessers dont have ranged options.

i hate that everything is fire though....

[alchahest]

it isn't like fire immunity is widespread. you might have problems with a troll player handing out the animus... but that's alot of fury spent for it.

as for 9 points, I think the angelius is valued just on the low end of nine. a good animus will put it to perfect. (an animus that is too useful would be worth an increase to 10 points)

[Nargacuga]

If Carny is our FWW, then Angel is our Pureblood.

I just needs 2 fixes:

1) Precision Strike to replace Overtake
2) A new animus (or give Avenging Angel boosted attack and damage rolls)


This focuses the Angel's role from a anti-troop/anti-heavy/ranged toolbox to a more dedicated heavy hunter

Then give the Nephilim Soldier Overtake to fill the troop-killing role.

[Neutralyze]

it isn't like fire immunity is widespread. you might have problems with a troll player handing out the animus... but that's alot of fury spent for it.

as for 9 points, I think the angelius is valued just on the low end of nine. a good animus will put it to perfect. (an animus that is too useful would be worth an increase to 10 points)

look at menoth for fire immunity. otherwise only a couple models here and there.

[alchahest]

Menoth is a problem in general. the fire immunity that some of their models have is just icing on the cake. but it isn't like every model they have is fireproof.

[blitzmonkey]

Why? Whats wrong with wanting the Angelius to be every bit as good as the Feral Warpwolf. With those changes the two warbeasts would be roughly equal.


I think your sense of equality might be vastly different from mine. That is ok though, as the middle ground might be where the angel could meet.

The Angel and the FWW are a bit different. As others have said, the FWW is probably the best 9 point beast in the game. It might even be bordering the 10 point range. I personally don't want to have the Angel mimic this. I would rather have a solid 9 point beast than a possibly undercosted beast. As others have pointed out, the angel has a number of abilities that the FWW does not have. As Neutralyze said, it seems that discounting flight, reach, ap, and eyeless sight might be a source of disagreement.

The FWW compared to Angelius playstyle differs as well. They have similar roles, but different executions.

So let's discuss your suggestions.

Giving the Angel a 16 bite:
We have a P+S 14 as is with the tail and reach. Why would we need a 16 bite? As far as I can tell, it is to help crack open armor. We don't get both initial attacks. We have to choose between doing the AP attack, or getting a 14 and 16. Plus, the 16 won't have reach. So what does that do?

I am going to assume optimal conditions. Let's take Vayl and a neph solider. This gives the Angel +2 damage and a free charge (and attack, but if we are cracking armor, I doubt we will one shot.) A sorceress on a hellion will do as well for the free charge.

A juggernaught is armor 20 with 34 health. So on the charge, I assume the AP shot will be first. Half armor is 10, and AP is 14 + 2 for incite + charge, so 3D6 + 6. 17.5 damage. Buy a 16 attack. It is HIGHLY likely to hit. So you are doing 2D6 - 2. I wouldn't boost, so that is 5 damage. Rinse and repeat. We are at 27.5 damage. Another 2 attacks gives you enough to finish him off at a total of 37.5 with full fury.

So on the reverse side, we have JUST the 14. Charge attack is the same. 17.5 dmg. From there, it gets a little different. Buy additional attack. Armor 20 vs PS 16 means you should boost damage. So you are doing 3D6-4. That is 7.5. Rinse and repeat. 32.5 damage. On Average, I will not kill a juggernaught. But I will be damn close. I am full on fury at this point. 5 Damage in difference is not enough to warrant granting an additional attack imo. The Angel can almost wreck the jack by itself. Not to mention, if you got a shredder or maybe a flame jet off, you will probably wreck it.

Does any of this prove that the angel doesn't need the Pow 16 attack? No. But my opinion is that it won't make a big difference, and is not really worth debating.

Your second option is to give it a few more hit points. I personally dont care about this option either way. So I won't discuss it.

The third option is the Animus. THIS is where I agree with you, as I would think most people do.

Soulblighter, this is the common ground. I suggest dropping the public campaign for option 1. I personally feel it hurts your viewpoint more than it helps. If you truly want to get people on board, I would suggest starting with the animus and working from there.

So I ask you, what would you think would be good for an animus change?

[Neutralyze]

cost 1

self animus

when taking a freestrike models to not gain the +2 to hit this model.

or

a vigilance animus that is self

or

something i think would be cool but not happen

range self target models in melee range of this model cannot end their normal movement further away from this model than it began.

[Defenstrator]

A juggernaught is armor 20 with 34 health. So on the charge, I assume the AP shot will be first. Half armor is 10, and AP is 14 + 2 for incite + charge, so 3D6 + 6. 17.5 damage. Buy a 16 attack. It is HIGHLY likely to hit. So you are doing 2D6 - 2. I wouldn't boost, so that is 5 damage. Rinse and repeat. We are at 27.5 damage. Another 2 attacks gives you enough to finish him off at a total of 37.5 with full fury.

While the thrust is correct, the additional attacks are at dice -4 damage, so three additional attack is an extra 9 (on average) for a total of 26 damage on average. And that's with the Angelius as buffed as it can get. You then pray you crippled the cortex and the don't have mechanics, or that's a dead Angelius on your opponents turn.

Honestly, alot of the strength of the Angelius previously was it's ability to bypass models and pick on stuff in the back line, which both let you kill their support without retaliation but also stalle their advance as they had to move back to deal with the heavy that was now behind them.

If he gets a solid animus he'll be decent, but at the moment he's not really that special. For certain warlocks only methinks.

[blitzmonkey]

While the thrust is correct, the additional attacks are at dice -4 damage, so three additional attack is an extra 9 (on average) for a total of 26 damage on average. And that's with the Angelius as buffed as it can get. You then pray you crippled the cortex and the don't have mechanics, or that's a dead Angelius on your opponents turn.

Honestly, alot of the strength of the Angelius previously was it's ability to bypass models and pick on stuff in the back line, which both let you kill their support without retaliation but also stalle their advance as they had to move back to deal with the heavy that was now behind them.

If he gets a solid animus he'll be decent, but at the moment he's not really that special. For certain warlocks only methinks.

This was in response to if the Angel had a POW 16 bite attack as well. That means it would be 16 +2 for incite, giving me 18.

The paragraph after was JUST the tail.

[Neutralyze]

what are other animus possibilities?

[blitzmonkey]

what are other animus possibilities?


Precision Strike. 2 Range self. I chose which branch.

Prey. The first enemy model/unit that kills a friendly within command grants prey to this model for one round.

[Neutralyze]

do you think 2 fury is a lot to ask for precision?

[blitzmonkey]

do you think 2 fury is a lot to ask for precision?

Maybe. I would prefer to have it at 2 then not at all.

1 would be better. I just worry about it on our locks for 1.

[Neutralyze]

Maybe. I would prefer to have it at 2 then not at all.

1 would be better. I just worry about it on our locks for 1.

Name locks that would use this on a regular basis.

maybe plylyth is shes taking 1 shot and not having parasite being cast that turn.

not vayl

not saeryn

maybe rhyas but she would rather kill it

Elylyth needs the fury for better things
ethags would outright kill it and Pthags maybe could find use but then again im sure whatever he is fighting in melee would be dead or hes in trouble.

[ShockwaveIIC]

Name locks that would use this on a regular basis.

maybe plylyth is shes taking 1 shot and not having parasite being cast that turn.

not vayl

not saeryn

maybe rhyas but she would rather kill it

Elylyth needs the fury for better things
ethags would outright kill it and Pthags maybe could find use but then again im sure whatever he is fighting in melee would be dead or hes in trouble.I did the same check list when the idea was brought up. I had eLylyth one the higher users of it though. Cost 1 Rng Self.

[Neutralyze]

I did the same check list when the idea was brought up. I had eLylyth one the higher users of it though. Cost 1 Rng Self.

for elylyth i looked at one thing.

upkeep a spell - 1

aim and shoot, boost damage if you need it - 1

buy attack - 1

use precision strike - 1

no boost on damage.

obviously you would boost and use precision strike on the big damage roll. this leaves her with 1 unelss no boosting at all and then Raeks animus would come into play too.

it makes you think about what you really need.

[ShockwaveIIC]

obviously you would boost and use precision strike on the big damage roll. this leaves her with 1 unelss no boosting at all and then Raeks animus would come into play too.

it makes you think about what you really need.Indeed, but needing to make the decision is a good thing no?

[Garth]

No upkeeps for E-Lylyth.

Precision Strike, boost damage
buy attack, precision strike, boost damge. 5 Fury, 2 Shots with:

pow 12 + 4 d 6 and precision for all the fury of a warlock. She could take out an Arc Node or the movement system / Cortex of a jack. This could be very useful and make her a really cool sniper.


Precision would make the Angelius so great!
In MK I he worked as this:

Fly to a jack and hope that you get the main weapon, the cortex or the movement. If this works you have won. He can't attack you after that (only 1" movement, no weapon or no Cortex).

Now you can only hope for weapon and Cortex and weapon alone doesn't always work. With Precision you could go exactly for what you want. It would be so useful against warmachine (that I still think is stronger and this because of the cheap discount jacks).

It wouldn't have much effect on Hordes, because of the healing of beasts...this woud be a great change and would solve so many of my feedback ideas at once...

[blitzmonkey]

After doing some thinking, 1 for the animus is fine. :) For some reason, I was thinking about giving it to another beast at 2. But range self is fine at 1 fury.

[Neutralyze]

No upkeeps for E-Lylyth.

Precision Strike, boost damage
buy attack, precision strike, boost damge. 5 Fury, 2 Shots with:

pow 12 + 4 d 6 and precision for all the fury of a warlock. She could take out an Arc Node or the movement system / Cortex of a jack. This could be very useful and make her a really cool sniper.


Precision would make the Angelius so great!
In MK I he worked as this:

Fly to a jack and hope that you get the main weapon, the cortex or the movement. If this works you have won. He can't attack you after that (only 1" movement, no weapon or no Cortex).

Now you can only hope for weapon and Cortex and weapon alone doesn't always work. With Precision you could go exactly for what you want. It would be so useful against warmachine (that I still think is stronger and this because of the cheap discount jacks).

It wouldn't have much effect on Hordes, because of the healing of beasts...this woud be a great change and would solve so many of my feedback ideas at once...

i am very weiry leaving 0 transfers on an arm 14 warlock.

[Yertle4]

Angeli are still as viable to Legion as Krea are to Skorne.

Make of that what you will.

Their purpose is to be the fastest and most mobile heavy in the game.

[chrsjxn]

Angeli are still as viable to Legion as Krea are to Skorne.

Make of that what you will.

Their purpose is to be the fastest and most mobile heavy in the game.

I thought that was the Feral Warpwolf? </sarcasm>

Actually, I'm not completely convinced that's sarcasm. I lost a game due to a Feral Warpwolf charging 19" at my caster. (6 base + 3 charge + 2 Warp Speed + 2 Gnarlhorn Satyr animus + 2 Dogpile + 2 Hunter's Mark + 2 pushed. Okay, charging 17, pushed 2.)

Whole thread perspective:

I still use mine, sometimes. They're good with eLylyth because they finish what your Seraphs start, and a 7" move with two 16" handcannon shots is still pretty good on the feat turn. They go well with Forced Evolution on Absylonia. Other than that, I usually find myself going with a Seraph or a Carnivean instead.

[Soulblighter]

Their purpose is to be the fastest and most mobile heavy in the game.

To what end? Whats the point in being the fastest warbeast in the game if you slap as hard as a little girl then get beat like a red-headed stepchild? The Angelius has speed certainly but its damage is extremely lacking. Speed and damage are the only two components that matter in this game. Everything else is either situational or secondary.

[blitzmonkey]

To what end? Whats the point in being the fastest warbeast in the game if you slap as hard as a little girl then get beat like a red-headed stepchild? The Angelius has speed certainly but its damage is extremely lacking. Speed and damage are the only two components that matter in this game. Everything else is either situational or secondary.


I love how you totally ignored my response to you in regards of damage.

It doesn't slap like "a little girl". It packs a good punch.

[alchahest]

P+S14 Armour piercing is never going to be "slapping like a little girl". that will put a serious hurt on anything it gets close to.

[Neutralyze]

i eat pow 14 Armor pierce attacks for breakfast!

[alchahest]

you must be the darling of the excercise yard ;)


Angelius is viable. it's not only a great model, it's a great-looking model. my opponents actually fear it.

[Neutralyze]

i like the angel. its that with wings being what they are now they are no longer as OP as they were. this brings up our other two wingless beasts into the game as new viable options for us now.

[grottoknight]

look at menoth for fire immunity. otherwise only a couple models here and there.

I have a buddy who is a very savvy (ya, it can happen) Troll player. I guarantee he will smartly spam the Pyre Troll animus where necessary vs my ranged attacks.
Pyre Animus equal Blighted Fail

[alchahest]

this is a problem if

a: your only ranged comes from beasts, and you haven't brought any viable melee to the table
b: your opponent doesn't need the fury used for casting for anything else

remember each troll can only cast it once, giving them 2/3 fury, and only on a model with 6". casters have to spend 2 fury for each casting. it is per-model. making units immune to fire is /expensive./

this is not nearly as big a problem as some people think it is.

[Defenstrator]

Dude, the Pyre Troll is always a problem vs Legion. Every single beast that's 8 points and up has a ranged attack that causes fire. Having that be nerfed against key models is a huge hit. And if your beasts are the main ranged support in your list, which they often are because you can only afford to take so much stuff, can really screw you. Saying that my two Seraphs can't even hurt that Parasited Dire Troll at range is an FU of epic proportions.

[Neutralyze]

i played against an almost all immune fire menoth list. this was my first MKII game. i shot at something then decided i would look at my card. i say is it fire immune. he happily replied yet. i then go to ask is there anything thats not fire immune. he said his jacks. then again they were safe passaged.

you bet your butt it was Efeora. ill tell ya, this was a sucky game.

[alchahest]

so you didn't use melee at all?

[Neutralyze]

so you didn't use melee at all?

oh i did. it doesnt mean that i wasnt at a disadvantage the whole game while having to put the Seraphs and other models in harms way to clear out weak trooper models with spray templates or other things.

[alchahest]

Dude, the Pyre Troll is always a problem vs Legion. Every single beast that's 8 points and up has a ranged attack that causes fire. Having that be nerfed against key models is a huge hit. And if your beasts are the main ranged support in your list, which they often are because yuo can only afoord to take so much stuff, can really screw you. Saying that my two Seraphs can't even hurt that Parasited Dire Troll at range is an FU of epic proportions.


I tend to put my P+S 18 bite attacks on the parasited troll, rather than the pow 12 blight strikes. or if for some reason I didn't have a carnivean, and I did have the seraphs, I'd be taking advantage of the mobility the seraph has to put some P+S 14 + 4d6 attacks into the troll. but that's just me.

[Dance_Of_Death]

In terms of the OP:

My take: Yes they are viable, but some casters are going to get greater efficiency out of them. Your play style will dictate more about how the angel's perform versus thier point value in theory machine "think tanks." They are more of a gamble versus the more reliable damage threshold that the Carni can dish out. Ultimately each caster can utilize the angelius in a number of ways, its just that some casters are more likely to optimize them for specific roles such as anti-heavy, or assassination beast, what not. Also the point total of the games that you typically play contributes a huge role to the end result.

In regards to some of the other thoughts:

The angelius is actually one of, if not the fastest beast when you take into certain considerations: Vayl + splistream can get an angel to move 24" without too much work. And before people start to complain about having Vayl be up front its really not that bad considering the options to: use her feat, Raek, or possibly even slipstream from another seraph (in higher point games.)

Precision strike: While I understand, and like the idea of precision strike, I'm thinking that it may in fact just simply go beyond the scope of what PP is looking to do with the angel. While ~50% of the time your likely to get under the mean expected result, I don't think the idea of allowing the other heavy hitting casters pick and choose thier columns for damage is really going to fly. If anything, I could see the argument made for it to be an ability in exchange for say overtake or something else, but not as an animus.

Hitting like a girl: Some girls out there are pretty tough...

ex: while its not likely to happen very much in a game, I'm hard pressed to find non-character beasts or jacks that have the potential to get up to 22 points of damage in a single attack, and 24 with enhancements. In games terms, I'm not really sure about the kind of girls that you are into, but if they are able to hit like this, you much know some pretty heavy handed girls ;)

Pyre Troll: In my LGS we have a huge TB fan, and plays them almost religiously. This matchup can be a bit of a problem, but hey as mentioned not all matchups are going to favor legion, and this one can be mitigated as well.

On a similar note, but a different idea is going along the lines of the D&D route, where the different dragons had a different kind of breath. This really doesn't won't change the models all that much or add a ton of rules, but gives more of a "Dragon" flavor to the beasts themself. Where I'm thinking that seraphs are more like the Black Dragons, smaller, and with poison which to me translates to corrosion (maybe as a continuous effect.) The carni would be given electricity (ode to Godzilla!) Typhon is a creature that is directly tied to thags, and maybe like thags could have a mixed cold SP attack with crit fire, and the Angel with flame jet. Fluffy, keeps the beasts in the same point cost range, but really enhances the idea of having different beasts to provide different roles.

[Soulblighter]

P+S14 Armour piercing is never going to be "slapping like a little girl". that will put a serious hurt on anything it gets close to.

Compared to other 9 point warbeasts it slaps like a little girl. The average damage output of the Angelius is not even close to the average damage output of a FWW or DTM against ARM18-ARM20 targets. Especially vs. small based models with ARM18-ARM20 which the Angelius really struggles to kill. The Angelius is very unimpressive in terms of damage output.

Im perfectly fine with the Angelius not being a beatstick warbeast, but if thats the case then it needs something else to make up for it, like an ability/animus that lets it hit-and-run. The Angelius still feels like its missing that one crucial element to make it fully worth 9 points.


The angelius is actually one of, if not the fastest beast when you take into certain considerations: Vayl + splistream can get an angel to move 24" without too much work. And before people start to complain about having Vayl be up front its really not that bad considering the options to: use her feat, Raek, or possibly even slipstream from another seraph (in higher point games.)

The thing is SPD only helps you upto a certain point. If the Angelius already strikes first over any other warbeast, than its not going to benefit all that much from being made any faster. Given the choice between more speed or more damage Id definitely choose more damage. A straight up damage boost is what the Angelius really needs. Either that or a hit-and-run ability which would let it survive longer to ultimately deal more damage.

[Neutralyze]

lets just give him sprint as well. seems like a lot of models are doing it these days :p.

[blitzmonkey]

Compared to other 9 point warbeasts it slaps like a little girl.

That is a bit different than saying it slaps like a little girl in general. Ad hoc much? Compared to the other 9 point warbeasts, its damage output IS less......but that doesn't mean its inadequate. Are you still of mind that it needs a P+S 16 attack? I am still with you about the new animus though. Which suggestion for a new animus do you like?

[alchahest]

new animus is a must.

but still, one fury for a charge at 14+3d6, halving armour on med and large bases. on any of the hordes heavies (unbuffed) you're looking at 3d6+4 damage. that's average 14 damage, straight up. and then you can buy another attack and boost the damage, and if you like, buy another attack (without boosting)

it's really hard to see this as "slapping like a little girl" no, it doesn't hit like a carnivean. but it flies. I can't really bend too much on this. the angelius can hit hard, but not as hard as a carnivean. that doesn't make it bad.


I will agree very vocally that this beast needs a better animus, but everything else about it is excellent.

[SteakAndSpirits]

At the risk of sounding like a simpleton, I've had positive experiences with both the Angelius ranged attack and it's single, armor piercing thrust attack. The liberal use of eyeless sight through terrain on this platform allows many targets to be softened prior to committing the Angelius.

Further, this is a beast that is not intended to be fielded by itself. Dual Angelii, for 18 points, ensures that at no time will there be a model on the table that will survive another turn if Legion does not allow it. Add another 2 point Shredder for a bump into the spectacular DEF:15 range.

If there's any room for improvement, it doesn't appear to be in the damage output or role department. It has to do w/ the trouble it faces against knockdown, and/or the universally poor Animus.

Suggested fixes include:

1) Reducing cost of animus to 1
2) Changing RNG to 6"
3) Simplifying to grant 'Vengeance' effect.

-s&s

[Neutralyze]

new animus is a must.

but still, one fury for a charge at 14+3d6, halving armour on med and large bases. on any of the hordes heavies (unbuffed) you're looking at 3d6+4 damage. that's average 14 damage, straight up. and then you can buy another attack and boost the damage, and if you like, buy another attack (without boosting)

it's really hard to see this as "slapping like a little girl" no, it doesn't hit like a carnivean. but it flies. I can't really bend too much on this. the angelius can hit hard, but not as hard as a carnivean. that doesn't make it bad.


I will agree very vocally that this beast needs a better animus, but everything else about it is excellent.

i have to nit pick just to do it so i apologize now.

most heavies are armor 18 in Hordes. that means it would be dice +5 :p.

[alchahest]

hey you're picking a nit that helps my case, I don't mind ;)