Cracked varnish on dipped models

[hrym]

Since my painting time & motivation is very limited I have tried dipping on some of my models with great success. I'm using this threads as tutorial:
http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?36552-Dipped-Nihilators
http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?34206-Dipped-Praetorians

I have painted and dipped my druids and they had time to dry for about 36 hours. Today I sprayed the models with a matt varnish but unfortunately mainly on the blue areas the varnish is cracked. I have attached some pictures:

http://img62.imageshack.us/i/p1030034gk.jpg/
http://img692.imageshack.us/i/p1030035w.jpg/
http://img12.imageshack.us/i/p1030036v.jpg/
http://img59.imageshack.us/i/p1030037u.jpg/

Why is this happening and is there anything I can do to fix this?

[loftybloke]

Are you using brush on or spray varnish? If it's brush on, then it's maybe too thick? I don't really know too much about dipping etc though

If you have been following a tutorial, you may want to try PMing the guy who wrote the thread, he may be able to help :)

Hope you get it fixed

Lofty

[Mod_Dvandom]

All spray products have fairly strong solvents in them, it's possible this is reacting with either your choice of dips or with the blue paint. When it softens and re-dries, it ends up shrinking.

---Dave

[hrym]

I'm using the following products:
The Army Painter White Primer (spray)
Vallejo Model Color
The Army Painter strong tone quickshade (applied with a brush)
The Army Painter Matt Varnish (spray)

I have used the Vallejo Model Colors and the Army Painter Varnish before on undipped models and there the varnish didn't crack

[Turtle]

Putting on varnish on top of the cracks may fix it, I've seen that used before, but results may vary.

36 hours may seem like a lot of time, but remember that you varnishes dry from the outside in, and any kind of dipping action will coat the models pretty heavily. You might need to wait 2-4 days depending on the weather in your area.

[loftybloke]

If everything you are using is by the same compnay, it might help you to send them an email with thos epictures, and maybe they can tell you what is happening :)

[patisarat]

Hey there! I wrote the two threads you based your dipping adventures on. I've never seen the cracking problem you show here though. Weird. The thing is, Army Painter matt varnish is designed to go over the Army Painter dip. It works; heaps of people have used it successfully.

You have to make sure the dip is completely dry before you spray the varnish on - how long did you leave it?

It's strange that the cracking only occurs on the blue painted parts, and it doesn't occur where the dip is heaviest (ie deep folds etc.). Maybe it is something to do with the blue paint?

I would try what Turtle suggested. Using one of these druids as a test model, spray some varnish into a plastic cup for 5 or 10 seconds to get liquid varnish, then carefully paint it over the cracked area (use a clean brush!) and see if that smooths it out.

[amazonwarlord]

I have had this exact same thing happen. I don't remember where I read it but I read about using a heat gun or blow dryer to heat up the model which will soften and smooth out the wrinkles and I think apply more varnish but I don't recall in what order. It did work somewhat, I'll see if I took pictures.

[trolldrengi]

I'm using the following products:
The Army Painter White Primer (spray)
Vallejo Model Color
The Army Painter strong tone quickshade (applied with a brush)
The Army Painter Matt Varnish (spray)

I have used the Vallejo Model Colors and the Army Painter Varnish before on undipped models and there the varnish didn't crack


I have had exactly the same thing happen when I was first trying out the whole dipping thing. The problem is that you are spraying too much Anti-Shine Matt Varnish on at one time, and possibly too close to the model as well. As Mod_Dvandom mentions, the solvents in the spray are reacting to the dip, and causing it to wrinkle up when it dries.

Try 'dusting' several light coats of the Anti-Shine Matte on from at least 12" away from the model. It took me a little practice to figure this out, as I originally thought I was not waiting long enough for the dip to dry...

Good luck, and stick with it... Once you get it down, you'll be thrilled with the results!

--Tom

[amazonwarlord]

ok, here is where I read the method I used
http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?33003-Matte-Varnish-heat-humidity-a-tale-of-woe.&highlight=spray+varnish

Since the model is metal and small you should not have the sagging problem the poster had. I used this on Anastasia and it took out most of the wrinkles. I don't have a good back shot of her finished but I think you can see the improvement.

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h137/amazonwarlord/Temporary/IMG_1095.jpg
http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h137/amazonwarlord/Temporary/IMG_1167.jpg

[hrym]

thanks for your replies and suggestions!



You have to make sure the dip is completely dry before you spray the varnish on - how long did you leave it?


I gave the models 36h to dry. Also as you noticed, the cracks didn't appear at places where the dip is thickest - so I think the dip dried.


I have had exactly the same thing happen when I was first trying out the whole dipping thing. The problem is that you are spraying too much Anti-Shine Matt Varnish on at one time, and possibly too close to the model as well. As Mod_Dvandom mentions, the solvents in the spray are reacting to the dip, and causing it to wrinkle up when it dries.

Try 'dusting' several light coats of the Anti-Shine Matte on from at least 12" away from the model. It took me a little practice to figure this out, as I originally thought I was not waiting long enough for the dip to dry...

Good luck, and stick with it... Once you get it down, you'll be thrilled with the results!

--Tom

Hm, normally I try to spray light coats from a distance >30cm. But maybe I'm applying to thick layers... don't know, but for the next model I'll try a Vallejo brush-on varnish.


All spray products have fairly strong solvents in them, it's possible this is reacting with either your choice of dips or with the blue paint. When it softens and re-dries, it ends up shrinking.


As some of you suggested, I tried to re-apply the varnish with a brush - the army painter varnish but also a Vallejo matt varnish - and dried it afterwards with a blow-dryer. Unfortunately it didn't help that much. It smoothed out some of the cracks but they are still there. I think I'll leave the models as they are and move on. I'm really satisfied with the result - for the time spent, besides the cracks and a little to much dip. Maybe I'll try to highlight some of the cracks so that they seem like wrinkles in the clothes...
Moreover the cracks are hardly visible when looking at the models from further away.

When brushing on the two varnishes I noticed that the army painter spray varnish softens the dip whereas the Vallejo matt varnish didn't affect it. So I think I'll try the Vallejo brush-on varnish for the next dipped model(s).

[LeiferAxe]

I have had the exact same problem using "The Army Painter" dips on larger flat surfaces.

Things I have tried.

1) Increase dip drying time.
2) Closely monitored the ambient temp and humidity.
3) Tried several Matt sprays at various distances.

Nothing has prevented this problem arising from time to time. There is some kind of combination of chemicals, temperature, and humidity that creates this infuriating result.
I have talked to Bo Penstoft (Army Painter Principal) regarding the issue. Unfortunately he was unable to help beyond the remedies I listed above.

[Jackie Paper]

I've had that problem in the past with rms reds and blacks. Never on anything else. I've started putting my lacquer on well before the varnish has cured, like within a few hours. The surface will be kind of semi-gloss, then letting them cure together and giving another coat after that. I use testors dull cote rather than army painter mat finish as I've had 2 different cans of that and have ruined every figure I put it on.

[hrym]

I'm done with highlighting them and therefore painting them. After all they look pretty good - considering the time spent (around 12 to 14 hours). Thanks to the highlighting and some detail corrections on the affected areas the cracks are less noticeable than before. From further away they are barely noticeable:

http://img228.imageshack.us/i/p1030114n.jpg
http://img809.imageshack.us/i/p1030115y.jpg
http://img96.imageshack.us/i/p1030116t.jpg
http://img23.imageshack.us/i/p1030117r.jpg

http://img856.imageshack.us/i/p1030109.jpg
http://img851.imageshack.us/i/p1030110v.jpg
http://img3.imageshack.us/i/p1030113dy.jpg

[hrym]

I painted and dipped Megalith this weekend. This time I used a Vallejo brush-on matt varnish and there occurred no cracks after applying the varnish. It takes a little more time and affort to bursh it on, but in my opinion the colors look better with this method.

[RendmasterFlex]

Wow can I ever feel your pain.
This has been a major problem for me and LeiferAxe points out it seems to happen alsmot without fail on larger flat surfaces. I too use army painter dip and then the spray can of either the testors dull coat or the army painter matt. When the testors dull coat works I think it is the best, but I can not figure out the rhyme or reason as to when it wants to pucker, orange peel, and crack. It ruined a 40K storm raven I was working on and ruined some screamers of slaanesh I dull coated yesterday morning. I am pulling my hair out trying to figure out why this happens. It seems like everyone has a possible explanation but no realy method of how to stop it. When I goofed up my storm raven this is the email response I got from army painter.

I hope to be able to give you some useful advice; please give it a new try and please get back to me with more feedback.

I’ve copied in our standard 4 step guide:

1. With any Matt Varnish (not just ours) there are outside factors playing in: Humidity; Dryness of product sprayed (must be completely hardened); and Temperature (too cold and a matt varnish, in its very nature, WILL make a milky white layer)

2. Anti-Shine too thick a layer. Give your models just a very, very thin coat of Anti-Shine and you should be fine.

3. Unclean miniature. Wrinkling can happen, if your base surface (i.e. the surface beneath the normal paint) was not sufficiently clean.

4. Distance. The solvent in the Anti-Shine is very strong; spray from a distance of 25-30 cm (or even further away) to allow the solvent to evaporate on the way in.

5. Next; I suggest you run through a few try-outs on an old spare plastic miniature before going on to your normal miniatures.

I’m convinced your problem is that you give the model too thick a layer and from too close a distance.

I had a mail about a month ago with a guy with a similar problem. He sprayed too thick a layer. He changed the way he did it and now the spray functions. All matt varnishes are a delicate product – and unfortunately the Anti-Shine we produce is no different on that particular aspect.

I just ordered up some Vallejo brush on matt finish. However, I have been reading that people get mixed results and that it does not dry to an actual matt finish- well at least not to the quality of the testors or army painter matt spray varnishes.

How was your experience with the Vallejo brush on matt? Nice dull finished product? Did you dilute it? I really love dip and flick painting and also have some just stunning results, but the more than occasional turd in the punch bowl kind of makes me second guess the whole process. If I can get the brush on dull coat to work I would really be sold on the dip and flick as method of painintg (actually I brush it on, but I like the flashy oringinal title). I can live with brushing it on each model, since to me it is a no-brainer time saver compared to giving the models a castrol super clean bath and repainting.

[Malebolgia]

I've heard it a lot about the Antishine spray. Happened to me too on several occasions. Mostly because I sprayed too thick (I think). So now I do a fine misting technique which works well, but drains the can quickly.
My solution? Use Dullcote brushon if you really want to be safe...best results and no problems whatsoever with it.

[hrym]

Army Painter sent me the same answer but until now I wasn't able to try it on a test-model. I tested the brush on varnish first and since I like it how Megalith looks finished I think I'll use the vallejo varnish on my next models too.

Regarding the Vallejo matt varnish - in my opinion the colors on Megalith look not as dull as the colors on the models I sprayed with the army painter matt varnish. I think this is because I applied two thin layers of varnish and because of the brighter colors I used this time. I choose to paint Megaliths stone parts in a sandstone tone.

http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/6038/p1030131z.jpg