Griffon VS 2 MHAs

[Mazinger]

Has any one else found themselves making a list, 4 points left and trying to decide between these 2 options? They both have a similar role and are both good at their jobs, yet I find it very difficult to pick between the two.

So what do you guys think is the better option in an all comers list? Obviously some 'casters will have preferences but we can discuss that too.

[CT GAMER]

Has any one else found themselves making a list, 4 points left and trying to decide between these 2 options? They both have a similar role and are both good at their jobs, yet I find it very difficult to pick between the two.

So what do you guys think is the better option in an all comers list? Obviously some 'casters will have preferences but we can discuss that too.

Is this a joke?

I wouldn't trade two MHA for five griffins...

[Steampunk Jim]

Yeah... The choice is rather obvious. I pick two mage hunter assassins before I pick my caster.

[FranzGrenstein]

I usually have 2 MHA and Narn base in my lists.

[Galitlan]

Not having 2 MHA is like Cygnar list with B13! There is no reason regardless of caster not to have two of them. Unless you are doing a tier'd list.

[Gearjock]

It depends upon if you have Invictors or not. If you don't then go with the 2 MHA's

[knight_actual]

a pathfinder flank source would also be invaluable for vyros as well.

[karn987]

Funny, Im the opposite of the so called "obvious" choice. I'd pick a Griffon hands down. It's an amazing jack and with all of our casters (especially Vyros) its down right awesome.

MHA have several flaws, like all units: 1 attack and as squishy as you can get.

They have 1 big attack that if it misses, leaves them high and dry. Without any real support for boosting out troops mats and hit rolls (short of Death Sentance) I'm warry about a 1 hit wonder.

High Def and low arm, I come from Cryx, I know how much this hurts and how often it means your very very easy to kill. Low pow blast damage can rather easily kill this thing, a smart enemy will most likely never let it get close. This is the same problem a lot of units face obviously.

My problem is, for their points, they all to often will die before making it to melee if your opponent knows how dangerous they can be.

The Griffon on the other hand is a jack and thusly much tougher. It has a shield giving it very respectible armor for a light jack and reach. Powerful Charge gives it p&s 15 on the charge (not half bad) and an arcanist can raise that to 17 ( and 11 for the shield). It can make insanely long charges and when paired with a caster like Vyros it becomes max threat 15" (6" + 3" charge + 2" move from field + 2" from Mobility + 2" reach) which is really rather nice when you also consider it can do that through woods. I love charging from one side of hte woods to the other and nailing the enemy where they least expect it.

Honestly, I dont think this is a valid comparison. Its a jack compared to 2 decent solos... call me crazy, but I prefer the jack.

[masleth]

I have yet to hit with a MHA :mad: whiff... squish. everytime. I'd consider the griffin just for the boosted attack roll option. But that's just me. The MHA's are the better pieces in almost any circumstance. If I'm playing Vyros, the decision is about 50/50 but otherwise its going to be the whiffers.

[RetributionBomb]

Funny, Im the opposite of the so called "obvious" choice. I'd pick a Griffon hands down. It's an amazing jack and with all of our casters (especially Vyros) its down right awesome.

MHA have several flaws, like all units: 1 attack and as squishy as you can get.

They have 1 big attack that if it misses, leaves them high and dry. Without any real support for boosting out troops mats and hit rolls (short of Death Sentance) I'm warry about a 1 hit wonder.

High Def and low arm, I come from Cryx, I know how much this hurts and how often it means your very very easy to kill. Low pow blast damage can rather easily kill this thing, a smart enemy will most likely never let it get close. This is the same problem a lot of units face obviously.

My problem is, for their points, they all to often will die before making it to melee if your opponent knows how dangerous they can be.

The Griffon on the other hand is a jack and thusly much tougher. It has a shield giving it very respectible armor for a light jack and reach. Powerful Charge gives it p&s 15 on the charge (not half bad) and an arcanist can raise that to 17 ( and 11 for the shield). It can make insanely long charges and when paired with a caster like Vyros it becomes max threat 15" (6" + 3" charge + 2" move from field + 2" from Mobility + 2" reach) which is really rather nice when you also consider it can do that through woods. I love charging from one side of hte woods to the other and nailing the enemy where they least expect it.

Honestly, I dont think this is a valid comparison. Its a jack compared to 2 decent solos... call me crazy, but I prefer the jack.

Powerful charge adds +2 to the Attack Roll. Which is still pretty good. Personally it depends on the caster, or if im taking Invictors.

[Steampunk Jim]

If you're missing with your MHA, you need to learn how to knock things down.

[FranzGrenstein]

If I'm playing Vyros he usually gets a griff flank buddy.

[RetributionBomb]

If you're missing with your MHA, you need to learn how to knock things down.

Retribution doesn't have a lot of access to easy to use knockdown outside of Rahn. And with the Low mat on our Warjacks, some warcasters are safe from a boosted headbutt.

[cacuin]

I like the griffin too since I often put him with the sentinels/ua since nothing surprises an enemy like a 19 inch threat range(6 from pronto, 2+pathfinder from the focus the arcanist gives him, 6+3 on charge+2 reach) on a power 14 attack. There is one thing that will often be dead.

[Steampunk Jim]

Retribution doesn't have a lot of access to easy to use knockdown outside of Rahn.


HA! Good one. For a minute there I thought you were serious.


Oh wait, you were..


Magister, Battle Mages, and the vast majority of our jacks have open fists. I can't think of any factions that have more than that, honestly. I've NEVER had problems knocking something down.

Here's a super secret trick. So pay attention, or you might miss this gem of mystical and nigh unattainable truth...

You should never be trying to headbutt a caster. Take a Griffon. Slam your griffon over their caster. Done. Your jack shouldn't have a hard time hitting your own jack from behind at an effective defense of 10. And the defense of the enemy caster is moot with an auto knockdown from a slam. Or, if you don't have a heavy jack standing by to help out, use a Magister. If the light jack ran or charged into the caster, that d3 slam from the back will still knock stuff down. Not quite as ideal, as the caster may end up on the back side of the jack if you roll low for the slam, but it's there if needed.


Apply MHA/CRA/Charging sentinels liberally, and the game is yours.

[CT GAMER]

You should never be trying to headbutt a caster. Take a Griffon. Slam your griffon over their caster. Done. Your jack shouldn't have a hard time hitting your own jack from behind at an effective defense of 10. And the defense of the enemy caster is moot with an auto knockdown from a slam. Or, if you don't have a heavy jack standing by to help out, use a Magister. If the light jack ran or charged into the caster, that d3 slam from the back will still knock stuff down. Not quite as ideal, as the caster may end up on the back side of the jack if you roll low for the slam, but it's there if needed.

Wait, so you expect us to use like combos and stuff?!? ;)

[RetributionBomb]

HA! Good one. For a minute there I thought you were serious.


Oh wait, you were..


Magister, Battle Mages, and the vast majority of our jacks have open fists. I can't think of any factions that have more than that, honestly. I've NEVER had problems knocking something down.

Here's a super secret trick. So pay attention, or you might miss this gem of mystical and nigh unattainable truth...

You should never be trying to headbutt a caster. Take a Griffon. Slam your griffon over their caster. Done. Your jack shouldn't have a hard time hitting your own jack from behind at an effective defense of 10. And the defense of the enemy caster is moot with an auto knockdown from a slam. Or, if you don't have a heavy jack standing by to help out, use a Magister. If the light jack ran or charged into the caster, that d3 slam from the back will still knock stuff down. Not quite as ideal, as the caster may end up on the back side of the jack if you roll low for the slam, but it's there if needed.


Apply MHA/CRA/Charging sentinels liberally, and the game is yours.

Magisters and Battle Mages need a CRIT to knockdown, which is very hard to get on just 2d6, again, unreliable without Rahn.

[Steampunk Jim]

Battle Mages are 6 strong. It's alot more likely that you'll get a critical in there.

Now, for the magister, I need you to go back and read his card. Now read it again. Now read it one more time, and try to look for anything that could possibly cause knockdown, other than his spell. Find it?

[Mod_Redphantasm]

Battle Mages are 6 strong. It's alot more likely that you'll get a critical in there.

Now, for the magister, I need you to go back and read his card. Now read it again. Now read it one more time, and try to look for anything that could possibly cause knockdown, other than his spell. Find it?

It's his combo strike. Do I get a cookie?

And again, with 6 mages you can get a semi reliable knockdown. Against higher targets you're actually more likely to get a crit. if the target is DEF 14 or 16, then 1/3 of the mages hits will be knockdowns.

Of course, if you want reliable knockdown, as in I push this button and you're knocked down, you're playing the wrong faction.

[RetributionBomb]

Battle Mages are 6 strong. It's alot more likely that you'll get a critical in there.

Now, for the magister, I need you to go back and read his card. Now read it again. Now read it one more time, and try to look for anything that could possibly cause knockdown, other than his spell. Find it?

Ah I forgot about Combo Smite, good call. I've yet to been able to use it though cause the Magister is so damn easy to kill >_> even with Force Barrier.

@Redphantasm: I'm not good at Math at all but uh, trying to hit a higher Def doesn't give you a higher chance to knockdown...

With 2d6 you have a 1 in 5 chance of a knockdown with each guy. Those aren't great odds in anyway, even if you factor in that you have 6 tries, its not exactly gaurenteed you will get a knockdown.

[Steampunk Jim]

Ah I forgot about Combo Smite, good call. I've yet to been able to use it though cause the Magister is so damn easy to kill >_> even with Force Barrier.



True that. But that's why Retribution is so awesome. Do they kill your magisters? Or your mage hunter assassins? Or your ghost snipers? Any one of thsoe things is going to cause them problems.

[Zerosoul]

@Redphantasm: I'm not good at Math at all but uh, trying to hit a higher Def doesn't give you a higher chance to knockdown...

Yes it does. As the number you need to hit gets higher there are fewer results on the dice, so there are more critical combinations.

[Mod_Redphantasm]

Ah I forgot about Combo Smite, good call. I've yet to been able to use it though cause the Magister is so damn easy to kill >_> even with Force Barrier.

@Redphantasm: I'm not good at Math at all but uh, trying to hit a higher Def doesn't give you a higher chance to knockdown...

With 2d6 you have a 1 in 5 chance of a knockdown with each guy. Those aren't great odds in anyway, even if you factor in that you have 6 tries, its not exactly gaurenteed you will get a knockdown.

Sure does. The greater the roll you need to hit the less "non crit" options are available. My original odds were over estimated but the point remains the same.

To hit a DEF 12 with a Mage you need an 6.
26/36 2D6 results will give you an 6
4 of those results are crits
Chance to crit: 15.3%

To hit a DEF 14 with a Mage you need an 8.
15/36 2D6 results will give you an 8
3 of those results are crits
Chance to crit: 20%

To hit Def 16 a mage needs a 10
Every result of an 8 & 9 will drop out
6/36 2D6 results will give you a 10
2 of those results are crits
Chance to crit: 33%

Basically as you go up against higher defs, and are left with a smaller pool of potential hits, a greater proportion of those hits are crits.

[wargrim]

Actually the chance to get a critical hit goes down. You did the math, against DEf12 you get 4/36 critical hits = 11,11%, against DEf14 you get 3/36 crits = 8,33% and against DEF16 its 5,55% crits.

So the percentage of crits goes up with better DEF, but the overall result of crits goes down.

[Mod_Redphantasm]

Actually the chance to get a critical hit goes down. You did the math, against DEf12 you get 4/36 critical hits = 11,11%, against DEf14 you get 3/36 crits = 8,33% and against DEF16 its 5,55% crits.

So the percentage of crits goes up with better DEF, but the overall result of crits goes down.

You have to hit in order to crit. You're showing the chances of rolling a meaningful critical out of two dice. I was running the percents that a hit would be a crit. The overall chance of hitting goes down, the chance that a hit will be a crit goes up.

[wargrim]

Well ok, now thats correct, but you said "Against higher targets you're actually more likely to get a crit." which sounds like its more likely to get a crit against high DEF than against low DEF
So let us agree that the chance to get an critical aiganst low DEF is higher, but if you hit high Def the chance that it is an crit.hit is real good.

[Mod_Redphantasm]

Well ok, but you said "Against higher targets you're actually more likely to get a crit." which is not true.

So let us agree that the chance to get an critical aiganst low DEF is higher, but if you hit high Def the chance that it is an crit.hit is real good.

Apologies, my statement was assuming a hit.

It's all one confusing probability mess, but I'll be happy to agree with you.

[Der Dexter]

then again, maybe in a minority, but i prefer my fellas actually hitting, instead of having an increased percentage of crits, whereas more hits actually amount to something substantial, therefore preferring as low a Def as possible.

but as for original thingy at hand, i've been playing with retribution for a while now, and been getting along quite well without MHA's, mainly. I have also noticed the incredible un-survavibility of these fishermen. A fellow pointy-eared player claims that their place is hugging the edge of the field, but i feel this is wrong, since then they usually are a bit far from all the action...

tried griffon once, and was pleased with it, but have problems finding points for a light, insted of paying a bit more and getting a heavy...

[karn987]

First off, werecat, don't be a dink and act like that alright? This post is trying to be productive and your just dragging things down with an attitude like that. That said, moving on..

We do indeed have a lot of models that can knockdown, that being said, none of this is really reliable except Rahn. Crit Knockdown is not something you can really rely on. Also, yes the Magister can knockdown with the combo strike, but they still have to hit and they have an even lower mat then the MHA, so this is almost a step back. Now slaming our models into a model is a good way to knock things down, though this is good for just about every faction to begin with. Even then, your using 2 other models to set up the 1 strike for the MHA where the Griffon's full set of attacks has a good chance of doing more damage over-all, especially to small based models (most casters).

[Lazlo]

Also, yes the Magister can knockdown with the combo strike, but they still have to hit and they have an even lower mat then the MHA

Actually, the magister and assassin have the same MAT, that being 7, which is nothing to sneeze at.

[karn987]

Actually, the magister and assassin have the same MAT, that being 7, which is nothing to sneeze at.


7 really? I thought it was six, huh. *checks book* Well fine =P

[RetributionBomb]

Also while the Magister's Combo Smite is pretty cool and good to use to knock down something tough... he only has a charge threat range of 9. Nooooot exactly fear striking.

[Steampunk Jim]

First off, werecat, don't be a dink and act like that alright? This post is trying to be productive and your just dragging things down with an attitude like that. That said, moving on..



Hmmm, ok. Because bringing up different options and sharing my play experience, and giving people ideas on how to improve their play is really dragging things down. My apologies.

Did I add a bit of sarcasm? Sure. Was it meant to be hurtful in any way? No. RetributionBomb seems pretty ok, and I think we both gained something from the conversation. No harm done.

[RetributionBomb]

Hmmm, ok. Because bringing up different options and sharing my play experience, and giving people ideas on how to improve their play is really dragging things down. My apologies.

Did I add a bit of sarcasm? Sure. Was it meant to be hurtful in any way? No. RetributionBomb seems pretty ok, and I think we both gained something from the conversation. No harm done.

I personally don't care. I don't expect civil talk while sipping tea when I go onto forums. I expect tooth and nail fighting with people trying to prove their points.

And you good sir.

*Adjusts monocle and sips tea.*

Brought up some fine points. Mmm... Yes....

[Erebos]

why would you ever even consider excluding the MHA's? you know a model is damn good when your opponent will refuse to play against it. and your know it's borderline broken when your opponent wants to...well...break the model.

the only reason to exclude MHA's is if you want to keep your friends.

[Jice_]

the only reason to exclude MHA's is if you want to keep your friends.

Or you didn't feel like painting them at the time and had more important stuff to buy. I don't have any MHA's, the magister was just such a nicer looking model. Same with the Scyir. Well to me anyway. Though if it's any consolation I have 2 Arcanists that are pretty auto include for me.

[Zerosoul]

We do indeed have a lot of models that can knockdown, that being said, none of this is really reliable except Rahn. Crit Knockdown is not something you can really rely on. Also, yes the Magister can knockdown with the combo strike, but they still have to hit and they have an even lower mat then the MHA, so this is almost a step back. Now slaming our models into a model is a good way to knock things down, though this is good for just about every faction to begin with. Even then, your using 2 other models to set up the 1 strike for the MHA where the Griffon's full set of attacks has a good chance of doing more damage over-all, especially to small based models (most casters).

Are you kidding? A Griffon's full set of attacks is going to do more damage to casters than an MHA? You do know that the MHA one-shots ARM 14 casters on average dice, right?