Venator Catapult

[tensteam]

Ok, we got artillery that's a bit better than it used to be. But it is inevitable, that comparisons must be made against the one model in the game that is almost compleletely similar, Khador Winterguard Mortar.

WG Mortar has 1 higher POW and 2" longer range. Both cost the same 3 points. Those are the stats that matter, but I hear myself asking why one is just better than the another?

Small details are that WG Mortar crew has missile weapons too. Venator Catapult crew has 1 point higher DEF. Venator Catapult has also a minimum range of 8" while WG Mortar does not. Otherwise both are completely identical.

So why do we get stuff that is just worse? Is it because we'll have superior support for Venator Catapult and Khador hasn't? I guess it is Khador that has spells like Signs & Portents, Transference and Fire for Effect while we are having... hmm... nothing? Soulward can give it Eyeless sight like it helps anything and magical attack that might be situationally usefull. But then Khador has Kovnik Joe whose bonus is a lot more usable.

I just can't get this. The only good thing is that I don't own the catapult. Did they forget to add automatic fire effect or something?

[thePlotDevice]

+1

The range is nice, but I just can't justify it at 3 points.

[TheOrange]

Yea, donno if its worth it at 3pts, all I can say is that with eMorgouls feat, those babies could be hitting spot on.

But in just about any comparison it's better then the venators, except for the fact that we have one more body.

[Soylent]

It combos well with the Krea. If it's a beast you'll hit a DEF7 otherwise a -2DEF will help for a direct hit. The upside is the combo can be used with any caster. Plus we have plenty of slams to go about to make direct hits more than possible. I'd rather run a Cannoneer though there is something to be said about a third of the points cost.

[thePlotDevice]

well done sir, I didn't notice that combo. I might just try it out

[Aardon24689]

My only disappointment is as a Khador player also I'd just rather have it do something different. But it does fit.

[Helion]

I personally think that it would be best if it still had needle burst. That would more than make up for the range and POW difference, and make it a VERY solid choice at 3 pts.

Note, maybe not the large needle burst of yesteryear, but the same effect as reivers may be fair.

[planescapedm]

I think it needs the Burst fire that the venators now have. +2/+4 was too much on the MK1 version but +1/+2 would be solid. I would also like it to be AOE 5" since we're the only hordes artillery with inaccurate. The others have mat 7! And with snipe the troll thumper also has range 18".

And I don't think that the Legion artillery, or skorne artillery should have a minimum range. The Khador Motar is 20" and has no min range.

[werecat]

Was I the only one that though the needle burst on the catapult was pretty useless? Most things on a medium or large base REALLY doesn't care if it takes 2/4 more damage on blast damage.

[Tyrannus]

Was I the only one that though the needle burst on the catapult was pretty useless? Most things on a medium or large base REALLY doesn't care if it takes 2/4 more damage on blast damage.The POW 9 against mediums was good against Troll single-wounders. The POW 11 was good against the Seraph.

Other that this, yeah, it was completely pointless. I think knocking the template up to 5" but the blast back to 7 would make it pretty fearsome, especially if it lost Inaccurate.

[werecat]

Yeah, trolls were the exception from the "most", ha ha.

But the Catapult is... well, a catapult. It won't lose inaccurate. What I want is +1 pow. That 16 makes them pow 8 on blast damage. All of a sudden, it can actually kill average infantry, which I'm a big fan of. If they do that, I'll go out and buy a second catapult same day.

[Tionas]

you know you round up for damage, and its pow 8 on the blast when you have a 15...

Page 3, 3rd paragraph, last sentance!

[planescapedm]

Yeah, trolls were the exception from the "most", ha ha.

But the Catapult is... well, a catapult. It won't lose inaccurate. What I want is +1 pow. That 16 makes them pow 8 on blast damage. All of a sudden, it can actually kill average infantry, which I'm a big fan of. If they do that, I'll go out and buy a second catapult same day.

mmm scattergunners... mmmm

[crispyfetus]

Tionas beat me to it.

[KaalTheWanderer]

I'm super happy with the catapult. My only issue with Skorne right now is that I'd like to field EVERYTHING at once. I just keep running out of points....


but I hear myself asking why one is just better than the another?

The obvious answer is that the mortar team are merely human. : )

[Moonblade]

I think at 3pts the one it should be compared with is the Titan Cannoneer.

The Venator Catapult has 5 RAT, Inaccurate, and Range Finder. If it runs on the first turn and fires for the rest of the game, it'll shoot at 3 + 2d6 (-4 Inaccurate and +2 Range Finder). Moreover it has Arcing Fire which is really good. In average it'll direct hit DEF 10 targets -- heavies or Krea-affected beasts. At POW 15 it's able to put a dent in lights, but little effect on heavies especially Khador Armor. POW 8 AOEs ain't bad against infantry, it'll kill most things in average.

The Cannoneer has 4 RAT but not Inaccurate (and can be boosted), AOE 3, same POW, less range, can punch well but is triple the points cost. It's actually a bargain as you get a warbeast which generates fury, can shoot accurately, and is still a killing machine in melee.

Something to be considered is the range. The Cannoneer has far less range but no Minimum Range [8]. If you're using the Catapult, it'll have to stay back, and you'll have to be sure you can keep enemies off them.

The effective AOE in Skorne are just the two of them. I'd say they're both well-priced.
If I'm making a pMorg list packed with Gladiator, two Savages (warpack stuff) and a Brute to protect him, I'll seriously consider the Catapult for some ranged support. If I don't have so many beasts in my list, I'd take the Cannoneer instead.

[Tionas]

Im not sure I dont like it, but its not something I'm itching to take. its a good peice, but there is only so many points in an army.

[Scalpel]

It's only -1 POW and -2" range over the Mortar, and we have 3 Crew compared to 2 Crew.

Yes the Min Range needs to go.

It's fine then.

[tensteam]

The extra crewman is totally useless as they don't even have ranged weapons. Give some additional effect such as Fire and THEN it's fine.

[gaminguy]

I've been using it to great effect so far. In one game it took out half a full unit of long gunners, softened up the trenchers, and put down the chief mechanic before he could patch up and reactivate a damaged Hunter (that was one heck of a lucky scatter, I had nothing else in range).

In another game it killed two MoW DTs, damaged two others, and killed two Venetors on a bad scatter roll (if it had scattered the right way it would have wiped out his Widow Makers).

So far its killed more than its points every time its seen the table, even counting friendly fire incidents.

[GrandmasterEJ]

Having used both mortars and the catapult I dont see a problem with it, ok the min range is pointless and the -2 RNG and -1 POW is there too but the reason it still costs 3 is because this is not enough of a weakness to bring it down a whole point, and at 2 points the catapult would be far too cheap.

At the end of the day there needs to be at least a slight difference between the mortar and the catapult and at the end of the day khador have always done AOE spam better than Skorne ever will, boo hoo.

[Tionas]

While your point is good, EJ, its definitly worth more than 2 points, but for 3, especialy when we have the overcosted AG to take if we have immortals or Zaal around, it needs to be worth the three. (disclaimer: I like the new points system) this is where the new points system shows its weakness. With the mortar at three, and the Catapult at three, one is the obvious inferior. this should not be. something should be given to the catapult to make it equal to the Mortar.even (as tensteam so loudly proclaimed) if its something like fire, or some sort of Splinter Burst (chain weapon for guns) if shrapnel is flying everywhere, their shields cannot protect them!

With a points system like this their should be parity among similar functions. the mortar and the Catapult have similar functions.

[planescapedm]

While your point is good, EJ, its definitly worth more than 2 points, but for 3, especialy when we have the overcosted AG to take if we have immortals or Zaal around, it needs to be worth the three. (disclaimer: I like the new points system) this is where the new points system shows its weakness. With the mortar at three, and the Catapult at three, one is the obvious inferior. this should not be. something should be given to the catapult to make it equal to the Mortar.even (as tensteam so loudly proclaimed) if its something like fire, or some sort of Splinter Burst (chain weapon for guns) if shrapnel is flying everywhere, their shields cannot protect them!

With a points system like this their should be parity among similar functions. the mortar and the Catapult have similar functions.

I just want AOE 5" and no minimum range.

[Moonblade]

I just want either one of planescapedm's request.

[Solarhaphaeriom]

The artillery pieces really are a bit confusing in terms of who has which rules.

Our catapult has arcing fire, inaccurate and min range. Crew do not have their guns, but +1 armor.
The mortar has arcing fire and inaccurate, no min range. Crew have guns.
The Scather has arcing fire and min range, not inaccurate. Crew not supposed to have guns.
Bloat Thrall has arcing fire, no min range or inaccurate.
Then the more direct fire units don't have inaccurate or arcing fire, not min range. Makes sense. Trenchers and Winter Guard still have their guns though.

Honestly, they should streamline this. All crew that come from ranged units keep their guns. All arcing fire weapons have inaccurate, nothing has min range. It's doable just by changing the HORDES artillery, and just makes sense. Also, the catapult crew should have the same armor as venators (which I don't think should be 12, but oh well).

[gaminguy]

Honestly, they should streamline this. All crew that come from ranged units keep their guns. All arcing fire weapons have inaccurate, nothing has min range. It's doable just by changing the HORDES artillery, and just makes sense. Also, the catapult crew should have the same armor as venators (which I don't think should be 12, but oh well).

I didn't get that either. They needed a points reduction in the first place, I don't think that extra -1 armor was really necessary to get them from ten points down to nine. (Compared to some of the other ranged options they aren't worth nine points either, but I wouldn't ask for any further reduction because I still have my fingers crossed for a Venator warlock.)

Leaving functionality aside, look at the sculpts; Venators are clearly more heavily armored than Swordsmen. Except for the shoulder pads. (And in this game your value is determined by the size of your shoulder pads. :D)

[Mnkylord]

I think in my next game, I'm going to include one or two in my next list to see how they do. I REALLY want to include them, it's just hard to find the justification in anything less than 50 points. And even then... A Catapult instead of a TyCom? I dunno.

[gaminguy]

No no no Mnky, you put in the TyCom and the catapult.

I was going to make a comment about the other auto-includes, then I realized how cynical it sounded.

When I want to test a model it is the first thing into the list, then I build the rest of the list around it. By which I mean "I design an army in the points that are left" rather than "I design a list specifically to support that model". Whatever it is the test model will still influence my selections some though. I'd be more likely to take Karax instead of Swordsmen with the Catapult since I've had a number of friendly fire incidents with it, just for example. (The reverse would also apply, I'd be more likely to include the Catapult if I was testing the Karax since they are immune to blast damage. Lobbing shells into melee without fear of the consequences would be fun.)

[Commissar Cmar]

I think you just found another combo with the catapult there. Lock a unit up with Karax and fire into the mess with the catapult. The Karax will be laughing as the shrapnel tears their opponents apart.

Another thing to note about min range is that if you declare that you are shooting a target within the min range, you can take it back and declare against a new target outside of the min range. This is due to it being illegal to fire at anything within the min range so isn't a possible move. This was confirmed in the rules forum by an infernal. So it means aiming within the min range won't waste your shot.

[gaminguy]

That's good to know, nice catch Commissar

(The catapult doesn't hit it's target very often in any case, firing into melee doesn't hurt its accuracy much.)

[Solarhaphaeriom]

Well, the Mortar has gained back min. range, so we won't be seeing that go. I'm all for making the crew normal Venators, then it seems fine to me. It has some ok combos with Krea, eMorghoul and Karax. From testing it seems ok at 3 points actually, though of course performance varies hugely.

[vintersbastard]

It's simply not possible to make the crew normal Venators. The models don't carry the guns.

[Solarhaphaeriom]

Neither do Winter Guard Field Gun crew, unless I'm mistaken, and the Mortar Crew only have little pistols on the models.

[vintersbastard]

Dang, that's embarassing. Makes one wonder how the Khadorans managed to shrink their Blunderbusses to fit into a pocket. Must be those Morrow-forsaken traitor alchemists, for sure.
At least the Menites remembered to leave their Skyhammers at home. :D

[DemonCalibre]

Same way the vastly superior Hand Cannon, can be pistol sized.

I also don't get the Hate on Venators, I have been having solid success with them lately, in my Makeda/Hexeris lists. I have been noticing big benefit, of simply buying a min unit, and lowering my expectations. They play jonny on the spot, knocking out things blocking charge lands, softening up a critical piece so my other pieces can kill it, blowing out a dangerous solo.

They don't accomplish a mountain, but at 5 points they aren't bad at all at keeping your opponent honest. Personally I don't like the 10 man unit, because it's hard to get that many guys to fire on targets near to each other without clustering them tightly, and begging to be smeared by AOE.

[Tionas]

I have been noticing big benefit, of simply buying a min unit, and lowering my expectations. They play jonny on the spot, knocking out things blocking charge lands, softening up a critical piece so my other pieces can kill it, blowing out a dangerous solo.

I'm with you here man. I've started taking them in almost every list. cause even a CRA with all of them at a beast STILL hurts. (10+2+6) dice on the roll aint bad at all against most heavies.

[Solarhaphaeriom]

As for the catapult, maybe we should introduce some reiver pistols, with only RNG 8. The main thing is, as pointed out earlier, that if anything is within 8" of the catapult, it can't shoot at them, and it can't charge them either. Only run away ineffectively.