I'm ignorant! Please share thy knowledge with me

[Fritzagelmann]

So, did some posting over at the noob forum, and now I feel that I have enough of a general grasp to start the move forward to the creation of an army. I would like to pick up enough mini's to run 25-35pts. yet, at the same time I would like to be able to play a bunch of 15pts games to get the feel for it. As such, i need lots of overlap. How do you feel about the following as the start for a force:

Bloody Barnabas
2 Blackhide Wrastler
2 Bull Snapper
full Gatormen Posse Unit
1 Feralgeist

Again, I am very open to ideas, but would like everything that's used in the 15pts list to be recycled later in a 25 or 35 list. Thanks!

[Nighteyes]

Well for the most part 15pt games tend to be the tooth and claw scenario. Which is only warbeasts. For the most part your list has them covered however for further expansion I would grab an Ironback Spitter instead of a second wrastler. Gives you flexibility to use both Barnabas and Calaban assuming you get both. Also WE&SJ are a great purchase for 35pts a total list for everything I would put like this

Bloody Barnabas
Calaban, The Gravewalker

*2 Blackhide Wrastlers
2 Ironback Spitters
*2 Bull Snappers

*2 Full units of Gatormen Posse
2 Min units of Bog Trogs
1 Full unit of Farrow Bone Grinders (Calabans Tier list)

3 Croak Hunters
2 Feralgist
1 Wrongeye & Snapjaw
1 Thrullg
1 Totem Hunter
1 Victor Pendrake

That gives you everything we can use and lots of points options Feel free to piece meal it. I have * the bear necessities

[GlassJaw]

Your best bet to start out with the following:

Barnabas +6
- Wrastler 9
- Bull Snapper 3
Gator Posse 9

Regardless of the point-level you play, you are pretty much always going to use those (unless you switch Barnabas for Calaban of course).

After that, you can add another Wrastler, a Spitter, or another unit of Gators. You can then experiment with a croak hunter or two, Wrong Eye & Snapjaw, bog trogs, etc.

The cool thing about Gators right now is that you can build up slowly and reuse everything.

[dboeren]

I'd start with a reasonable sized core (enough to do 25 points) based on the most standard models and then proxy to determine what else you want to buy.

[Fritzagelmann]

Nighteyes, thank you for the reply but that's almost $600 worth of stuff and is far above the 25pts I am looking for.

Glassjaw, thank you very much for the reply, this is more along the lines of what i was looking for. A manageable start and with enough money to buy the rule book (damn there being no gator starter set!) and the fraction book. The posse you have listed there, how many is that? Is it just the 3 that come in the box or are there extras?

dboeren, that was an amazing idea! a friend of mine attempted to start play testing the game lastnight. It could have gone better, but atleast we are startin to get a feel for the rules. Let it be said though, that terminators are not so much the best proxi for gatormen :) I think I am going to have to raid my nephews toy box and see if i can barrow some of his plastic dinosaurs

[GlassJaw]

The posse you have listed there, how many is that? Is it just the 3 that come in the box or are there extras?

A max unit (5 models) costs 9 points. That's a unit box and 2 blisters. I almost always take max units. More bang for the buck and a max unit of Gators with Iron Flesh is incredibly difficult for opponents to deal with.

That said, you could start with a min unit and add another 3 points of models: totem hunter, thrullg, or a croak hunter and a feralgeist. I'd recommend the latter.

[Fritzagelmann]

Honestly, I want to play this fraction for the gatormen. Don't get me wrong the frog people are very cute too but I already have a slaan. So a full unit of them is no problem whatsoever for me. I have just yet to order to book so I wasn't sure if i needed the box alone or the box and 2 blisters. now I have my answer though, so thank you. If you were goin to bump this upto 25pts what would you take next?

[dboeren]

With your proxies, try to keep the base sizes correct if you can. The unwieldyness of bigger bases and inability for many larger models to crowd around one target can be significant. Back when I started I just made paper circles in MS Word and wrote the names of the models on them.

Most units in the game function better as max sized units because you're often going to be able to have some sort of buff spell for them and why not have it effect more guys for the same amount of Fury? Not all though, not everyone's going to get a buff and some units have jobs that don't necessarily require a lot of guys.

Bog Trogs are a good example of a unit that doesn't necessarily need to be maxed. They can act as an effective diversionary/flanking force with just 6 guys. They'll disrupt the enemy a little longer with 10, but you don't need 10 to get the core job done.

For a 25 point Barnabas list I'd probably go with something like:

Barnabas
Wrastler
Wrastler
Snapper
5xGatormen
Feralgeist or Swamp Gobbers (your choice)

[Fritzagelmann]

The base thing was actually a very big issue for us, and was the one thing we agreed we needed to attempt to address. I think honestly we just picked the wrong week to get into the game. There's a torny here next week so the club is very much in practice mode and not really into take x3 times as long as a practice game to teach noobs how to play lol.

I am having a little bit of difficulty adjusting to the max sized unit thing, but it makes sense. I am just used to trying to claim multiple objectives and the flexibility offered by multiple smaller units is key in that role. That said, more gators = more fun!

I was honestly afraid the 25pts list was going to include multiple of the big guys, they are kinda pricy. I will see what i can do.

I really like the swamp gobbers minis, but they don't seem to be overly popular around the board for gators. Can you offer me some tactical advice on why you might choose either them of the feralgeist? Thank you again

[dboeren]

Well, you can potentially replace the second Wrastler with a Spitter or a second unit of Gators so you've got those options. I don't think a second Gator unit comes in any cheaper though. If you take a Spitter you'll have 2 points left over so you can take a Croak Hunter for your solo.

Personally, I would want a 3rd beast of some sort. If you've only got two beasts and one is very small like a Snapper you're barely making Fury ends meet and this makes you very reluctant to put your Wrastler in harm's way because losing him would be a major problem. Hmm, my expensive melee monster is afraid to get into combat? That doesn't sound good! So that's my take. Not sure if the Spitter is a cheaper model but it's an option and a mix of different beasts would suit Calaban better so it's by no means a bad option. At small enough sizes you don't expect to have backups for everything but in bigger games you usually want some extra Fury capacity. A general rule of thumb many people use (more for 35 point games though) is to take beasts with roughly 150% the Fury capacity of your warlock. In Barnabas' case that would be about 9 Fury worth. This is only a rough ballpark sort of rule and it gets broken all the time in both directions when people know what they're doing, but it's not a bad thing to keep in mind when you're starting out.

Swamp Gobbers mainly put out a cloud to help protect stuff. Barnabas has less need for them, because he can already put out a swamp template that does something similar. So I can imagine that he rarely takes them. Calaban might be more likely to do so. So overall, probably the Feralgeist is better. Swamp Gobbers *easily* win the cooler looking models contest though. I pulled some cotton off the end of a swab and glued in in the barrel of their fog generator which makes them even cooler.

So, Spitter+Croak Hunter and drop the Wrastler+Feralgeist might be a good option to proxy and see what you think. Especially since it would probably suit Calaban better once you pick him up.

Edit: Oh, by the way... if you're sort of against frog-people as opposed to gator-people you could consider converting the model. Technically a tournament organizer would have the decision on whether it's legal to play but with your buddies it doesn't matter and I rarely ever hear of well done conversions being rejected. Anyway, you could slap a snout on that Croak Hunter and probably turn him into a little Croc Hunter instead with some greenstuff and a bit of sculpting work. I've done conversions to turn Gudrun and Alten into pigs for my Farrow army.

[Fritzagelmann]

I don't have a problem spending money on something I will use. i much rather spend $50 on something that will be taken every game rather than $30 on something i will only use 20% of the time.

I was going to ask about the converting thing. Modeling is my favorite part of the wargaming hobby. i find it very difficult to have minis that other people have. i wanted to ask how friendly this community was to third party minis and conversion. For example, crocs with 2 handed maces instead of halberds, or maybe with Egyptian style clothing rather than just runnin around free balling. It seems that really the base is the most important aspect of a mini, as there doesn't appear to be "true" line of sight.

Also, I really want the gobo minis, I just can't justify not takin a goblin when the options there.

[Town]

I don't have a problem spending money on something I will use. i much rather spend $50 on something that will be taken every game rather than $30 on something i will only use 20% of the time.

I was going to ask about the converting thing. Modeling is my favorite part of the wargaming hobby. i find it very difficult to have minis that other people have. i wanted to ask how friendly this community was to third party minis and conversion. For example, crocs with 2 handed maces instead of halberds, or maybe with Egyptian style clothing rather than just runnin around free balling. It seems that really the base is the most important aspect of a mini, as there doesn't appear to be "true" line of sight.

Also, I really want the gobo minis, I just can't justify not takin a goblin when the options there.

NOT TOURNAMENT LEGAL!!! AHHHH PROTECT THE CHILDREN!!!

haha as long as your not involved in tourny's I think itd be fine, depends on your meta though. I usually respect an opponents army more if he spent the time to modify all his models, although i don't play gators so i can't really help out on those other questions... why am I even in this thread? i donno lol

[Fritzagelmann]

You post has left me more confused than I thought possible, lol

[dboeren]

I don't have a problem spending money on something I will use. i much rather spend $50 on something that will be taken every game rather than $30 on something i will only use 20% of the time.

Once you build your way up to 35 point games, I think you would frequently consider using two Wrastlers. What none of us know is the future. This fall (Octoberish) the new Hordes book will be coming out and everyone will be getting new model stats. It's widely expected that both Minion subfactions will get a couple of new warbeasts. While the odds of them replacing the existing melee heavies are small (because there are so many unfilled niches still) any new beasts will take some sort of list-share away from the existing ones, even if it's a fairly small effect. How are your crystal ball skills?

If it makes you feel better, we're all in the same position. I've got three War Hogs. I'm thinking of picking up a fourth one which I'll use with Arkadius, but then I wonder whether I'd still do so after more choices are out. I've successfully talked myself out of five War Hogs, but four still seems quite tempting. Without any other melee beast I cannot imagine playing Arkadius with less than three, although Carver would be just fine with only two. Then again, pigs only have two beasts compared to three for gators, so there are fewer options for us right now.



I was going to ask about the converting thing. Modeling is my favorite part of the wargaming hobby. i find it very difficult to have minis that other people have. i wanted to ask how friendly this community was to third party minis and conversion. For example, crocs with 2 handed maces instead of halberds, or maybe with Egyptian style clothing rather than just runnin around free balling. It seems that really the base is the most important aspect of a mini, as there doesn't appear to be "true" line of sight.

I kind of dislike the term "true line of sight", it seems to imply that it's somehow a good idea or that another system is not as good because it's not real. Basing visibility on a static model leads to all sort of bad things IMHO. People leaving banners and other parts off their models so they can get better cover is just the beginning of that desolate road. In MkII a model is (for LOS purposes) a cylinder the diameter of the base and with a pre-set height. Putting your model on a fancy base doesn't make him easier to shoot, and that's fine w/ me :)

Officially, there are rule about conversions. They have to be based on the official model, must use same-type weapons in the same hands, etc... But these only really matter for official events and in reality it's totally the event organizer's call. As long as your conversion looks approximately like what it's supposed to be I doubt you'll run into any trouble.

As far as acceptance by the community... Generally most people are cool with it. If you wanted to use Sebeki models as the basis for a Gatorman unit (rebasing them of course) that shouldn't be too much of an issue because what else could they be? There might be some risk that the next book has a new unit of hammer and mace wielding Gatormen that suddenly makes them a confusing conversion but who knew? I haven't really looked at them side by side for a scale comparison, but they'd probably be close enough to work. Might be worth extending the mace/hammer handles so they appear to have Reach like the normal Gatorman weapons if you can swing it.

[Fritzagelmann]

I find my crystal ball ability's leave much to be desired. My thought with the wrastlers was that they are enough of an important part of the army that it couldn't hurt to have 2. they really seem like one of the only things that can reliably play with jacks at the moment. I thought the list looked kind of lacking in the raged department so thought maybe more ranged or mid field guys would be coming out. I had zero idea more stuff was coming out in october. Is it like a new armybook? Should I wait to buy the army book until then? The toy soldiers come with cards that tell me everything anyways right?

That was one of the things we liked most about the rough game lastnight, was theres a pick in the rulebook of some minis behind a wall and its like this is the area the mini occupies. Its a great idea, just goin to take tons of gettin used too. I blame necromunda.

I was really lookin at a Beloved of Sobek as a second wrestler mini. If I am goin to have somethign that's that important to my army, i would really like a different lookin mini. There's are giant lizards, not mass produced machines. I like the gator posse a lot, and very much want one, but im not sure I would want 3 full units of the same 3 posed mini's.

Converting is not a problem in terms of weapons, I was just unsure if there were weapon upgrades and stuff in this game. Thanks again, you are just being unbelievably helpful

[dboeren]

There are no upgrades or equipment for models. The closest thing is something called a Unit Attachment that some units have, where if you pay the points to add an Officer or whatever the attachment is then it grants the whole unit some new perk.

Gators have almost no ranged capability at all, mainly just the Spitter and some of the non-gator solos they have access to like the Croak Hunter. There's a reasonable chance of some ranged stuff in the next book though as they get rounded out.

So here's the deal on books... The normal PP model is to release a new book roughly every 1.5-2 years. There are separate Warmachine and Hordes books. In each new book, every faction gets an equal amount of new stuff. Sometimes there is a new type of model added to the game, this year it's the Battle Engine, and every Warmachine faction is getting one in their book which comes out next month. Probably all the main Hordes factions will as well, but Minions and Mercs are sort of their own separate thing so I doubt they'd get one. Now, where do the "Forces Of" books fit in? Well, when MkII came out PP needed to put out all the new stats. It was impractical to release one book with all stats for all models, it would just be too dang big, heavy, and expensive. So they broken them down into individual faction books, but it's sort of a one-time thing. Maybe in another 7 years we'll see a new set of MkIII books but for now we're back to the normal book releases.

Anyway, Warmachine gets their book in June, and Hordes in October. We don't know exactly how much stuff will be in it, but it's been confirmed that there is a new Blindwater caster and a new Thornfall caster. It's generally expected both gators and pigs will get a new unit, a couple of new beasts, and a new solo or two. This is less than a "real" faction gets, but you've got to remember that gators or pigs are each only half of Minions and Minions itself isn't quite a full normal faction so in that context it's sort of fair. I would not be surprised to see at least one crossover Merc or Minion solo or unit that is neither pig nor gator but will work for both. Anything more than that is a bonus and more than most of us expect.

So to be clear, nothing old is going to go away. It's purely new models added for each army plus new fluff, etc... Some of the models from the new book are starting to come out already such as the Farrow Slaughterhousers, others won't be on the shelves for months to come - hard to predict order of release you know.

On the LOS thing, the height of the imaginary cylinder rarely matters by the way. Most terrain is either a short wall that hides nobody completely or a building that hides everybody. So 99% of the time, you're just talking about "Can I draw a clear line from part of my base to part of your base?"

The Wrastler models are multi-part so you can do some reposing with them, I'm not sure how much since I don't have any myself. But I do have my three War Hogs in reasonably distinct poses with no cutting.

[Fritzagelmann]

So then, what books do I need to play the game? Will I need to pick up these expansion books or will the cards and the rules come in the blisters?

[Nighteyes]

Best bet is to start with Primal MKII Buy it and read through it 7+ times. Make sure you understand everything! Then grab the FOH: Minions That will have all of our current MKII stuff except the Slaughterhousers. All the boxes and blisters you purchase should have stat cards in them for which model you have purchased.

With the Rulebook and Models with stat cards in hand you will have almost everything you need. Things missing include dice, tapemeasure, (optional) fury tokens or the token set for the faction), Dry erase markers for marking dmg, (optional but recomended) Sleeves for stat cards, and finally (optional) brass rings sizing from 3" 4" 5" for all those AOEs. While these are optional they are great when placeing swamp pits the having models move into them, also the PP template set is helpful for blast dmg and such.

Hope this helps

[Fritzagelmann]

That is a ton of helpful information, and full of stuff I never would have thought about. Thank u very much

[Alienated One]

To play the game with Gators, you will need Primal mk2 Hordes rulebook. If you decide on a WM faction, you will need the Prime mark 2 warmachine rulebook.

[Nighteyes]

That is a ton of helpful information, and full of stuff I never would have thought about. Thank u very much

Your very welcome my good man. The community is always glad to help!

[dboeren]

All you really need is Primal MkII. For any normal faction I'd get the Forces Of book, but for Minions if you're only playing one half then I feel like it's not so important. I bought the Forces books for my Cryx, Menoth, and Skorne, but didn't get the Minion one - it felt like it just wasn't a good value to me as a pig-only player. As Nighteyes said, the minis come with their stat cards so you'll have everything you need to play them.

Brass rings are pretty optional too. I've seen two people that use those over the years, lots of others just get an AOE template set or make paper circles. Honestly the paper stuff is fine, can have the name of the effect written on them, and minis sit flatter on them than brass rings.

[Nighteyes]

I find the brass rings are better bc I dont use the paper and I tend to keep only 3 of the brass rings on hand. So I guess paper is better in a sense but I find that the rings are easy to pick up and a lot more durable

[Fritzagelmann]

Do you use the rings for the free swarmps, or just the spell swamps and other things? I like the idea of actually makin swam terrain to use

[Nighteyes]

I use both as they are easy to carry. Im not the greatest with terrain. So I keep mine portable and simple :)

[Fritzagelmann]

Placed my first order today:

Barnabas
Wrastler
Bull Snapper
Gator Posse

One of the local guys said I can barrow his rulebook for a while, so I am excited! Now, to find a tutorial on painting lizards...

[GlassJaw]

Now, to find a tutorial on painting lizards...

Get the Minion faction book. Has some nice painting tutorials in the back and it's a beautiful book overall.

[Nighteyes]

Placed my first order today:

Barnabas
Wrastler
Bull Snapper
Gator Posse

One of the local guys said I can barrow his rulebook for a while, so I am excited! Now, to find a tutorial on painting lizards...

While borrowing one is nice I always try to have mine on hand. There WILL be rules disputes from time to time and if your opponent doesn't have one then you are the one prepared!

[SpaceMonkeyFromSpace]

I don't know if your FLGS carries them, but if you're going to proxy and and you have a couple of bucks a company called Litko makes wooden bases in all the right base sizes. Some competitive players I know use them when they measure out movement. Instead of actually moving the mini right away they measure and then place a token. It allows your opponent to check your measurements if he wants to and avoids "he couldn't have gotten in range" arguments. (shh . . . This tactic can also be turned on dirty cheaters to stop their dirty cheating)

They also help in situations where you're trying to get two tipsy beasts in base to base contact on top of overly sloped terrain. Sometimes even turning minis back to back doesn't work.

[Fritzagelmann]

See, heres the issue, the rulebook cost $40, that's almost another full gator posse! I can jus tbarro whis for now and be happy.