Fell Caller vs Hero

[Patuljak]

My appologies for the slightly confused post, I am not very good at explaining and comparing things.

I am worried about our Hero. He was once a beatstick with some nice effects and self-buffs he could get, but now he's kinda meh when compared to the Fell Caller.

The FC costs 3 pts, has two P+S 10 weaponmaster attacks, has 9,5" of threat range, has a spray and, of course, has his fell calls that he can now use upon himself too.

The Hero also costs 3 pts, has one basic P+S 12 reach weaponmaster attack and, possibly, a second one, has 10" of threat range, has retaliatory strike, can charge through rough terrain for free and gives a tactic to the Champions that I'm not entirely sure they need.

They both have very similar beatstick capabilities. The Hero wins out on the Caller when it comes to P+S by two, but his second attack is not guaranteed which makes the Fell Caller wastly better against anything that does not die in a single hit. The Hero has reach which is an advantage, obviously, but he only has 0,5" more of threat range. He also has no ranged attacks. He has 1 more MAT and ARM over the Fell Caller but the latter has one more DEF which is arguably better, and can give himself 2 more MAT. Sure, the Hero has more abilities, but Retaliatory strike is not all that hot anymore and the Fell Caller can give himself pathfinder if need be. And the FC can buff other units and attack something else too.

So, I think we can conclude that when it comes to hurting stuff, they have similar capabilities, with the FC being more versatile and the Hero having reach. I also think the Fell Caller's Calls outshine the Hero's more MAT, retaliatory strike and the Champion tactic. The problem is that I see no reason to take a Hero and a Fell Caller when I can just take two Fell Callers.

I am of course intending to playtest them both, but I would like to hear your thoughts on the matter.

Please, discuss.

[bakaryu]

Well the Trollbloods ranged lists are becoming more interesting, adding in scattergunners, bushwhackers, blitzers, impalers and fell callers you got an army full of long range and spray attacks :)

[ozmo]

Not a bad comparison.
Keep in mind reach has a lot of benefits in addition to the 1.5" charge threat range.
I'm somewhat on the fence here.

[adol]

I agree with the OP. Though we need to test both models of course.

[General Nemo]

My appologies for the slightly confused post, I am not very good at explaining and comparing things.

I am worried about our Hero. He was once a beatstick with some nice effects and self-buffs he could get, but now he's kinda meh when compared to the Fell Caller.

I disagree, and I will tell you why.


The FC costs 3 pts, has two P+S 10 weaponmaster attacks, has 9,5" of threat range, has a spray and, of course, has his fell calls that he can now use upon himself too.

A spray attack that is useful, but will rarely actually get anything done. I see your point here, though. More attacks is usually better than one attack and probably another attack.



The Hero also costs 3 pts, has one basic P+S 12 reach weaponmaster attack and, possibly, a second one, has 10" of threat range, has retaliatory strike, can charge through rough terrain for free and gives a tactic to the Champions that I'm not entirely sure they need.

Charging through rough terrain is pretty nice, and that P+S 12 can go a long way for the charge. Extra damage is good, and so is a higher MAT.



They both have very similar beatstick capabilities. The Hero wins out on the Caller when it comes to P+S by two, but his second attack is not guaranteed which makes the Fell Caller vastly better against anything that does not die in a single hit. The Hero has reach which is an advantage, obviously, but he only has 0,5" more of threat range. He also has no ranged attacks. He has 1 more MAT and ARM over the Fell Caller but the latter has one more DEF which is arguably better, and can give himself 2 more MAT. Sure, the Hero has more abilities, but Retaliatory strike is not all that hot anymore and the Fell Caller can give himself pathfinder if need be. And the FC can buff other units and attack something else too.

Capability, in this case, is not the same as intention in my opinion. The Fell Caller is a support solo. He may be able to Fell Call himself, but the buff is usually spent on another model that can get more mileage out of it. He is capable in melee, and he will do some damage, but he is not possessed of the same purpose as a Hero, which makes the comparison of the two moot. If you insist on comparing them, I would say the Hero is better because of his raw stats. The defense is not arguably better when that defense is still too low to avoid getting hit most of the time, so in this case, I would take the higher armor since I am going to get hit anyway.
As for Retaliatory Strike, I love it. In MK I I would use it to trigger Borka's and Madrak's feats out of turn. Since the Field Test lacks wording on how long the feat lasts (Turn vs. Round), I can't make a judgment about it now.


So, I think we can conclude that when it comes to hurting stuff, they have similar capabilities, with the FC being more versatile and the Hero having reach. I also think the Fell Caller's Calls outshine the Hero's more MAT, retaliatory strike and the Champion tactic. The problem is that I see no reason to take a Hero and a Fell Caller when I can just take two Fell Callers.

I don't agree here. They can both hit things, and both have weapon master, but they have completely different roles. I can't emphasize enough how important of an ability Reach is to us for things like Madrak's feat (Epic or Primal), so in this aspect alone I would choose the Hero over the Fell Caller for a beatstick solo every time.

[Mael]

I can see your point Pat and understand your concerns. The Fell Caller has got much better at buffing friendly models while being a combat unit at the same time. Also don't deny how good retaliatory strike is as it allows attacks out of activation which is really good. For two models that have relative killing power against infantry the out of activation attacks really make him worthwhile.

On average a fell caller rolls one P+S24 and one P+S20.5
On average the hero rolls one P+S26 (and a second P+S22.5 if you kill the first model)

This means on anything multi-wound more than ARM18 the Hero does more damage unbuffed.

And besides, just think about all of the silly things we can do with Champions now. We can take two units and they can run through each other.

You're right though, perhaps we would benefit for one more P+S on the Hero to really edge him out over the Fell Caller. That would make the decision quite hard and (IMO) that's the whole point! No more auto-includes.

[Patuljak]

Yes, he is intended as a support solo, but that does not mean that he can't be used in other ways too. When you have only one Fell Caller you have to be careful not to lose him so as not to lose acces to the precious precious Fell Calls, but with two you can take some risks. Also, with two, one of them could usually also buff himself because in lowish point games (35 ie) you rarely need to buff more than one unit/model per turn.

There's no sense in denying that Reach is a very good ability and that the extra MAT and POW can go a long way. Because of Reach, I would always take the Hero over a second Fell Caller in pMadrak lists (although that is doubtful because the new Fennblades will give plenty of reach). But as I said, with two Fell Callers there is nothing stopping you from buffing yourself. In a list I make when I'm not sure what I'll be facing I value two guaranteed attacks and spray capability over one attack against everything not infantry.

Also, I think the new Retaliatory Strike won't usually do much good. If pMaddy's feat lasts for a turn then yes, it will be awesome, but I already said that with pMaddy I'd take a Hero. I simply think that having access to Fell Calls in two models is more valuable to having a reach beatstick that can indefinetly charge through terrain, especially when that beatstick is similarily potent (or rather, a bit less, but absolutely has a bigger volume of attacks).

Thank you for your response though. I might not neccesarily agree with everything you said yet but you have given me food for thought, and this is exactly what kind of reply I was hoping for. I am even more sure that I will need to playtest this extensively now.

Edit: the last paragraph also extends to you, Mael. I agree, a little more POW on the Hero's Axe would make his role more distinct and would ease my concers, so that's possible feedback right there.

And I really don't get the hype about Retaliatory strike. Is one single out-of-turn attack really that good?

[General Nemo]

Any time :)

[Templar Coyote]

And I really don't get the hype about Retaliatory strike. Is one single out-of-turn attack really that good?


I noticed in Mk 1 people wouldn't send cheap puds to kill the Hero; cause they will probably die in the attempt. It's a psychological advantage I think.

[General Nemo]

And killing models out of turn is good. Period. Always. Dead models for free, people!

[unclebiggins]

The problem is between his lower ARM, lower DEF (as I always played him as the corner stone of my brick as the MAT 8 missile ready to be launched) and less health he dies easier.

I played a game with him today and the hero went down to a trio of POW 12 ranged attacks. In another he died to a POW 12 spray and a charging POW 10 attack. He never got to make his retaliatory strike.

Cleave is definately worse than Backstrike. With -1 STR and no-infuse (cashing in on the champions that are also sure to die) he hits about as hard with each attack with the same accuracy as before but only makes one attack now when he charges a tough target like a jack or healthy infantry.

The Hero before wasnt a game changing piece like a Warmonger who was the plague against any collection of infantry with utility surviablity like an escalating ARM and STR value, abomination and passive MAT/RAT buffs for his units. Our hero was solid and simple. A pair of POW 13 MAT 8 attacks that often averaged out as POW 14/15 MAT 9/10 attacks throughout the game. With ARM 17, DEF 14 in melee and steady, he was our chief, and while I begrudged his rival for his obvious superiorities I tolerated my Hero. I took some comfort in that in a one on one biff, mine was more likely to win.

Now five games down with the man and I am disheartened that he is just too easy to kill and is yet to earn his points (though one game I was very very thankful to the CMD 10 and his commander advantage) He once charged a sentry stone, failed to destroy it and was killed by a pair of manikins the very same turn.

He has charged a slayer for impressive damage before being killed with paltry effort from the Warjack (one boosted melee damage roll put him down) He has killed a pair of Winterguard and then killed by 4 seperate aimed blunderbuss shots. That was his attempt to kill a minimum unit of winterguard, a unit that is only one point more than himself.

He is my number one target in MKii, when I begin to submit data believe me there will be a long list given for this model.

[darisus]

I just played against my brothers trolls and he had both the FC and hero. He ran his FC behind his champs buffing them and spraying through their ridculous arm 20 (with buffs). Later on when his champs got killed off the Fc put out decent dmg with his own 2 attacks. The Hero killed one model, charged a jack to try to finish it off did squat, then immediately got squished by said jack next turn. He didn't even get a chance to use his retalitory strike. All in all the Fc payed for his points and more with his versatility keeping him always doing something to help. The hero while great against midrange arm/low wound troops lacked the power to finish off a jack even on a charge. Cleave is definitely worse than backswing. So from playing that game it looks like the FC's versatility trumps the hero's abilities.

[Patuljak]

I agree, especially as I have played a game with both the FC and the Hero yesterday. The Fell Caller was great, striking left and right and spraying while still buffing my units while the Hero charged a Warmonger through my Champs and did a couple of points of damage. Next turn, he got killed by a Forsaken and his claw attack.

Seriously. He died to a Forsaken.

I will be taking him to playtest him a bit more before I give out my final judgement but he seemed VERY lackluster in my game. Although I must admit that the tactic he gives really is very useful (but not worth 3 pts if you're only running one unit of Champs).

[PhoenixBlaze]

If the Hero still charged at +5" and still had 10 health (he has 8 right?) then I'd be all over him. I used to run two and I freakin' loved it. What one didn't kill, the other would (even things like casters and light jacks), but right now....I'll need to try him out.

Simple answer, take both.

With regards to retaliatory strike, charge your hero into a pleb unit, watch then die in droves as they have to attack you, fail to kill you, then you smack them back. Come your turn, your reach attack(s) will sort them out and if need be, here come the champs! (or the hero backs out as with reach, he could be safe). And weaponmaster more than makes up for that naffy "champs die and hero gets better....for a turn" cos champs obviously die easily.

Fell Callers self buffing is pretty amazing though.

EDIT: wait WHAT! Only one retaliatory attack per turn!? That sucks. Yeah, the Hero has dropped in my books, by a fair bit.....and by the wording, Champs can only advance through other champs, no charging (although, with Weaponmaster, you won't always need the charge, oh god, Heroic Ballad on champs....).

[Writer@Large]

How to fix the Hero: +1 P+S, Backswing ability, +1 point cost.

--W@L

[The Happy Anarchist]

EDIT: wait WHAT! Only one retaliatory attack per turn!? That sucks. Yeah, the Hero has dropped in my books, by a fair bit.....and by the wording, Champs can only advance through other champs, no charging (although, with Weaponmaster, you won't always need the charge, oh god, Heroic Ballad on champs....).

Charges are advances now, so tactician does still allow charges.

[Cannibalbob]

How to fix the Hero: +1 P+S, Backswing ability, +1 point cost.

--W@L

4 points is an awfully steep price for 2 weaponmaster attacks.

[ColdYinTiger]

I might drop one of my fel's for a hero now with my Borka list, but both fill a different roll. One functions as a beatstick and a bonus to champs while the other is a toolbox. You have to think of both of them in that sense.

[bakaryu]

I no longer take the Hero, he just doesn't have a place in my list anymore, not when the chronicler provides twice as much benefit to the army for one point less.

[Verjigorm]

To me, the decision to include the Hero comes down to whether or not I include Champs. The Hero allows champs to be much more manueverable in close-combat, which when you're trying to pile three-champs onto something, is priceless.

[Cannibalbob]

To me, the decision to include the Hero comes down to whether or not I include Champs. The Hero allows champs to be much more manueverable in close-combat, which when you're trying to pile three-champs onto something, is priceless.


I dunno. Champs were a unit that I never had problems with them tripping over each other.

Now if he gave tactician to all trollkin in his cmd area - that would be amazing.

[Sevwall]

The fellcaller is a beast. He is almost as good (if not better) in melee, sand his RAT 6 SP8 blows the faces off of models.

The hero is... terrible. Make his ARM 17 or 18, and his P+S 13. Losing Tactician for something good would also be cool.

How about No Sleeping on the Job for himself and champs?

[Cannibalbob]

How about No Sleeping on the Job for himself and champs?



How about Tactician for friendly warrior models in his command range?

If we are the "get hit and strike back" faction, then Tactician would make a world of diffference for setting up battle-lines, absorbing charges, and smashing back.

Imagine if Champs or Longriders could charge into/past engaged Kriel Warriors? Or imagine if the damned stone could move first and walk past the front lines so it was in a good position AND we could use its bonus - the rest of the army can then advance past it.

Good lord, Tactician would make our infantry brick so much better. Tactician on Champs is something that unit really does not need so much.

[bakaryu]

How about Tactician for friendly warrior models in his command range?

If we are the "get hit and strike back" faction, then Tactician would make a world of diffference for setting up battle-lines, absorbing charges, and smashing back.

Imagine if Champs or Longriders could charge into/past engaged Kriel Warriors? Or imagine if the damned stone could move first and walk past the front lines so it was in a good position AND we could use its bonus - the rest of the army can then advance past it.

Good lord, Tactician would make our infantry brick so much better. Tactician on Champs is something that unit really does not need so much.

That is very similar to what I suggested as a new ability on the Standard and Piper for the Kriel Warrior attachment to justify their being 3 points.

[Patuljak]

If he got Tactician for everyone, it would mean two things. It would negate his intended use, which is basicly beatstickness, because we'd be waaaay more careful with him as losing him would hurt. That, and he would be another auto-include. We have enough of that.

It would also be too powerful. If a Warlock had it, great, but for a solo to give out such a poweful army-wide buff...

[bakaryu]

If he got Tactician for everyone, it would mean two things. It would negate his intended use, which is basicly beatstickness, because we'd be waaaay more careful with him as losing him would hurt. That, and he would be another auto-include. We have enough of that.

It would also be too powerful. If a Warlock had it, great, but for a solo to give out such a poweful army-wide buff...

I agree with Patuljak, you cannot just give the Hero such an army changing ability on a 3 point solo. He is meant to be a beatstick, so let him have that cake and eat it too. He has MAT8, reach, POW12 weapon master, cleave.

Dump cleave, give him either backswing and +2ARM or *Attack: Thresher
Either that or possibly give him Granted [Champions]: Brothers in Arms so that champs can have their DEF14 in melee again, but only if they pay out that extra 3 points on top of the 10 points you already pay for them.

[theummhmmguy]

It will still be as before, though the Fel Caller is great in melee you still don't want to lose his calls so you bring in the Hero and get him killed first before you send in the caller.

[Sevwall]

Not really a good argument. First of all, you'd just take a second fellcaller, since they cost the same. Secondly, arguing that the model is better because the other model is more useful is.... counter intuitive to say the least.

Its like saying a Sentinal is better than a Charger because you want to keep the charger. Just take another charger in that case.......

[theummhmmguy]

Not really a good argument. First of all, you'd just take a second fellcaller, since they cost the same. Secondly, arguing that the model is better because the other model is more useful is.... counter intuitive to say the least.

Its like saying a Sentinal is better than a Charger because you want to keep the charger. Just take another charger in that case.......

While I agree with you it won't change the fact that they will be played in the same manner as they did in MKI. In MKI the decision order was FC, Hero, Hero. In MKII as it is now the order will be FC, FC, Hero.

Unless we both get our way and the Hero gets a little bump to make him competitive with the Fel Caller.

[Sevwall]

Has anyone elses fellcaller been eating people? I move him up 6", launch a spray, and eat like 3 infantry men at a time.

Cool beans, thats what it is.

[Turtle]

Or they might knock down the fell caller a peg, so be careful. ;)

To be honest, the Hero really works well with the Champions. Thus, if you have champions, take the Hero, if not, take the fell caller. Better yet, take both.

Doesn't the Hero's Tactician ability also affect himself since he is labeled as a Trollkin Champion? If so, that ability seems meant to let the Hero stay safely behind the champion unit, then spring forth out from behind the champions to do damage, with the champions themselves then leapfrogging the Hero to attack.

Perhaps if they wanted to boost the champion a bit they can give him another ability which works off that. Perhaps the champion can get an ability where if he kills an enemy model in melee, he gives a small bonus to friendly trollkin champion models in a radius. Thus, in the scenario I describe above of the champions and Hero leap frogging each other using tactician, the Hero gives the champion another small bonus as they move through him to follow up. This bonus could be something like +1 to melee attack rolls, putting the champions at MAT 8, which will help against certain high DEF infantry and fits with the theme.

This is assuming Tactician also affects the Hero himself, which it seems like it should. It also helps cement the Hero+Champions combo even more. I'd imagine the champions clearing out a line of infantry, with the Hero with Rush on him charging through the lines to take out some valuable target that they thought was safe for the turn.

Keep in mind, I say this now but I have honestly not played with the champion or Hero since MK2, just a few 15-25 point games this weekend.

[Cannibalbob]

This is assuming Tactician also affects the Hero himself, which it seems like it should.



It does effect the Hero as well as the Champs.

But I still don't really find many reasons to care about that ability unless I am playing 2 units of champions - which I doubt I ever really do again.

[JBFlanz]

The hero is definitely a model that I am worried about. He hits like a truck, but dies to easy to be a champ. I suggest +1 ARM and steady. That would make retaliatory better and would make him flexible with no knockdown. I think he hits well enough, but I wish he was more survivable. Thoughts?

[Dougernaut]

The fact that he's a CMD 10 Commander is pretty stellar in my opinion. In a faction of CMD 7 and 8 on our units and no other commanders in sight (of which I figured the Fell Caller would have been, but I guess not...), the ability to have a fair degree of security in making your command checks in a bubble as large as Madrak and Borka's Control areas is nice.

His Tactician ability with the Champions is also all right, since it lets you hang him immediately behind them while they form a screening wall, then have him charge through them when it's go time. It's not the best, but it's a way to keep him out of the line of fire until it's killin' time, more than anything I think.

All that being said, I'm gonna have to agree that he's lackluster. He could use an armor buff like Defensive Line with Champs or something, and he could really use Backswing. If he was toe-to-toe with the Champs at ARM 18-20 with 2 weaponmaster attacks, I think he'd be a mighty dangerous piece to have coming across the field at you.

[Mael]

I may not be the only one who has noticed this (and if I am, please don't hit me!) but I think the Fell Caller needs a nerf in terms of his Spray Attack. Last night against a Seaforge list I was spraying models and dominating them with his RAT6. I couldn't believe how good he did! In two turns he manged to kill 8 ARM18 dwarves with two sprays.

To make the Hero more attractive perhaps what we need to do is give the hero a minor buff, and give the Fell Caller a minor nerf. Lower the FC's RAT by 1 and raise the Hero's ARM by 2.

Thoughts?

[Patuljak]

And if they don't want to give him +2 ARM at least give him Defensive Line, it's mind boggling that he doesn't have it already. I'm going to suggest both options in my feedback. Or maybe +1 ARM and Defensive Line? Also, he really really needs Backswing to be a really well-rounded and efficient beatstick.

I can't say I can comment on the FC much, I have mainly been playtesting Grim as I've been most worried about him and I don't take any Callers in his armies nowadays since they don't buff RAT anymore. He does seem a bit too powerful and versatile for 3pts, though.

Edited because I hit the post button too quickly.

[Mael]

I mean it's cool he has RAT6 but he out-shoots all of our other spray models while providing awesome buffs in the process

a) Borka - RAT5
b) Winter - RAT4
c) Scattergunners - RAT5

I think making them an even RAT5 across the board would be perfect.

[Cannibalbob]

I may not be the only one who has noticed this (and if I am, please don't hit me!) but I think the Fell Caller needs a nerf in terms of his Spray Attack. Last night against a Seaforge list I was spraying models and dominating them with his RAT6. I couldn't believe how good he did! In two turns he manged to kill 8 ARM18 dwarves with two sprays.

To make the Hero more attractive perhaps what we need to do is give the hero a minor buff, and give the Fell Caller a minor nerf. Lower the FC's RAT by 1 and raise the Hero's ARM by 2.

Thoughts?


I don't think that means the Fellcaller needs his RAT dropped. Hitting Searforge is amazingly easy. They have 11 defense on a good day. It just means that the Searforge player will have to be more careful about where he puts his guys and how he deals with your spray attacks.

I play Searforge a lot, and sprays have always put pain on our units as they generally need to bunch up. You learn to deal with it or you lose a bunch. Hell, Bilethralls can spray my dwarves with a good chance at success.

[Cannibalbob]

I mean it's cool he has RAT6 but he out-shoots all of our other spray models while providing awesome buffs in the process


Thats because other than the Scattergunners our RAT values are terrible, and Borka really has little use for that spell overall.

It's not a problem with the Fellcaller.

[YabaBaga]

The fact that he's a CMD 10 Commander is pretty stellar in my opinion.
I think this is something people are missing on the Hero. Now, it's mostly dependant on how often you come across Terror models but I definately plan on taking a Hero in most of my lists to keep my Kriel Warriors and Fennblades in line.

[Mael]

Thats because other than the Scattergunners our RAT values are terrible

Average is not terrible. ;)

[StinkyJim]

Does the Hero's Tactician ability affect Horthal? He's listed as a Longrider CHAMPION.

[General Nemo]

Does the Hero's Tactician ability affect Horthal? He's listed as a Longrider CHAMPION.

That is part of his title, not his classification.

[Waynemanor]

I think everyone might be underestimating Tactician. I've seen people in the local scene (lord tyrant watt) do nasty things with Xerxis and Martial Discpline, mostly with Cetrati. I don't think Tactician w/ Champs is that different, ESPECIALLY if you're running 2 units of Champs (although that's less of an option in MK.II, it seems.)

I don't think it's a junk ability--Tactician is one of the reasons I'd bring the Hero over the FC in many circumstances.

[Sevwall]

Doesn't matter. Still counts.

[Cannibalbob]

Average is not terrible. ;)


4 != average

[Sobek]

My one issue concerning either model is with the Hero. Aside from having multiple wounds, he's actually less survivable than that Champions that he's supposed to be a hero for. I'd love to see him be able to use Defensive Line with Champions. That'd do it for me.

[Sevwall]

He needs more than that. I want no sleeping!