kara sloane will shoot my casters to death. [Archive]

RuneGrey

01-13-2010, 12:55 PM

Scary, but eLylyth is also pretty badass these days. Overall, a weapon does not make a super warcaster. Just depends on what spells she gets.

I'm much more interested in getting some spoilers for our new caster. We've not even seen the model, let alone been given any idea of what he can do.

Heck, info on any of our new units would definately make me crack an evil grin. we've seen a lot for other factions, so I'm just hoping that when it's Cryx's turn, everyone else will be looking at our new stuff and wondering how they'll deal with it.

coolwhip1

01-13-2010, 01:01 PM

I don't care how good it is, Stealth is still better.

*Assuming that she doesn't ignore stealth that is...

DemonCalibre

01-13-2010, 01:01 PM

The Gun is ROF1, the Gobber makes it effectively ROF2

Honestly, We don't know if she has True sight, if she has it....I would sweat it....if she doesn't Denegra is going to thumb her nose at them.

unyuzyall

01-13-2010, 01:02 PM

With Reinholdt, the caster will be shooting out two 12 +4d6 shots per turn= dead bonejacks.

Jyggdrasil

01-13-2010, 01:02 PM

Yikes! I hope to Hades that she cannot crack Stealth at will.

Tionas

01-13-2010, 01:06 PM

I'm jsut spreading the love around. Seeing as I'm the doom and gloomer that predicts a hail of bullets, this caster goes right into that pile.

but, yeah, I have this huge desire to see what were gonna get: Unit, Solo, Artillery, UA, second Unit (TWO units in the Forces book for Khador), caster.

so much to have previewed yet!

BENDER

01-13-2010, 01:32 PM

All I know is that my Bonejacks will need more than Winnie the Pooh stories to help them sleep tonight.....

rvrchamp

01-13-2010, 01:42 PM

All I know is that my Bonejacks will need more than Winnie the Pooh stories to help them sleep tonight.....

haahaahahaa

SaintScythus

01-13-2010, 02:11 PM

How can you justify Weapon Master on a ranged weapon besides like Armour Piercing rounds? My pistol wraiths will never be safe again.

Typhael

01-13-2010, 02:14 PM

Yikes! I hope to Hades that she cannot crack Stealth at will.

Fire Beacon, meet Jyggdrasil. Jyggdrasil, meet Fire Beacon.

(Sure, it's not Sloan-generated, but it's possible even without her having any ability to crack stealth by herself :( )

Jyggdrasil

01-13-2010, 02:15 PM

Aye, but its also possible to kill the bugger that grants it a lot easier than it is to kill a warcaster.

RuneGrey

01-13-2010, 02:32 PM

Also with such an insane ranged weapon, I'm not expecting a 8 focus Warcaster. In fact, I'd not be terribly surprised if she came in at FOC 5 with that sort of weapon. Would definitely be a choice between 'shoot' and 'do anything else'. Since two fully boosted shots would eat all of her focus.

More likely she'll be FOC 6 like Caine. So on turns where she goes full ROF... she has 2 focus to assign to jacks. 3 if she uses a Squire (which I expect will be pretty common with her).

edit: I also see the Hordes FT exploding a bit in the Legion area over this - after all, it is a pretty good point of why eLylyth has to use bullseye when Kara gets weaponmaster scott free.

Tionas

01-13-2010, 02:36 PM

She's only ROF 1. she gets 2 shots with the always availble Reinholdt.

Jyggdrasil

01-13-2010, 02:36 PM

Aye, but its also possible to kill the bugger that grants it a lot easier than it is to kill a warcaster.

On this note, I reckon Lynch has overtaken Ryan as 'primary target' within the B13.

hauntingexperience

01-13-2010, 02:54 PM

Its official, Cryx needs the choir/covenant!

eDenny is as good as dead when shes on the field I presume.
=P

ResurrectioN

01-13-2010, 03:04 PM

Let's not Rebuke Kara before we see all stats and spell list.

Tionas

01-13-2010, 03:30 PM

I just think Gaspy's Vassal is a bit light on defenses.

hauntingexperience

01-13-2010, 03:52 PM

eDenny doesnt have stealth, and Karla has magical weapon. Low arm and hit point mean Karla can blow her away with the greatest of ease. Spells or abilities that enhance that are just icing on the cake.

Unless Karla can ignore stealth herself, prime Denny should be fine.

Zaxon

01-14-2010, 04:04 AM

That just means we need to protect eDeneghra the old-fashioned way and not rely on incorporeal to keep her alive. With the preponderance of magical weapons in Mk II, we knew this was coming.

Being that she is a Cygnaran 'caster, I would expect a FOC 6...5 would surprise me (albeit pleasantly!). I would not be surprised if her spell list looked quite a bit like Grim Angus'. I am more concerned about what her synergy with the Cyclone, Sentinel and Defender will be as we'll be needing our infantry to protect our 'casters against that gun of hers.

blakeh1

01-14-2010, 04:13 AM

It's really not much different than it is using Epic Deneghra against Caine. If he gets LOS to her and is in RNG she is dead.

Gorg

01-14-2010, 05:34 AM

if she will end up as broken as ehaley then at least we can expect some variety at tourneys from cygnar.

though, i doubt her list will look in any kind different than sieges. we will see.

Tionas

01-14-2010, 05:37 AM

Thats true... at least she's not vyros. I've yet to contemplate a way to keep Edenegra alive against that dude.

GaspysInhaler

01-14-2010, 05:46 AM

Not impressed.

Cygnar will be shaking in their boots once we unveil our secret weapon anyways.

http://privateerpress.com/files/imagecache/1up/products/Ripjaw.png

Shaking with laughter that is....

Gorg

01-14-2010, 05:55 AM

Thats true... at least she's not vyros. I've yet to contemplate a way to keep Edenegra alive against that dude.

just a hint: edenny is horrible against cygnar or similar lists, in your case vyros, no one cares less about edennys feat than cygnar, no one puts more magic ranged attacks on the table than cygnar. if you go against cygnar or something similar built, take you 2nd list which should likely be build to deal with em better.

Typhael

01-14-2010, 09:10 AM

Not impressed.

Cygnar will be shaking in their boots once we unveil our secret weapon anyways.

http://privateerpress.com/files/imagecache/1up/products/Ripjaw.png

Shaking with laughter that is....

Awesome. You had me shaking with laughter.

Silopolis

01-14-2010, 10:20 AM

If the Ripjaw turns out to be crazy awesome, I will have to make a second Thanksgiving to eat all the crow I'll have to eat.

Maybe that thing IS the answer to our greatest questions!

Micf2302

01-14-2010, 11:12 AM

no...

Obviously the answer to those questions is 42!

(it felt better saying that before the movie was out... Now everyone understands :( )

Silopolis

01-14-2010, 12:11 PM

no...

Obviously the answer to those questions is 42!

(it felt better saying that before the movie was out... Now everyone understands :( )

Given how "well" the movie did, I think you're still fine. ;)

Ghyrrshyld

01-14-2010, 12:46 PM

whatawookie1

01-14-2010, 12:53 PM

So here is the thing that bugs me.

Privateer did their level best to make sure that our Warcasters couldn't deliver alpha strikes to other Warcasters.... but what is that gun exactly?

So it's okay to be able to kill Warcasters from a distance as long as you do it with bullets instead of spells.

Glad I play Garryth now..

But you see, you're crazy wrong there. Cygnar has always had that, what with both Caines and Siege. There has never been an attempt by PP to prevent long-ranged "alpha strikes". Look at your own new faction for crying out loud, Kaelyssa ignores LOS and has a ROF 3 for the caster kill. Stop complaining about something you don't even have the rules out for yet.

Ghyrrshyld

01-14-2010, 01:23 PM

But you see, you're crazy wrong there. Cygnar has always had that, what with both Caines and Siege. There has never been an attempt by PP to prevent long-ranged "alpha strikes". Look at your own new faction for crying out loud, Kaelyssa ignores LOS and has a ROF 3 for the caster kill. Stop complaining about something you don't even have the rules out for yet.
It's a pow 10. ROF 3 pow 10 is still a pow 10.

I've never gunned anyone down with Kaelyssa in my life. Wait, one sec. I got Morvanna once, but then again, Warlocks are more succeptable to her than Warcasters are.

Besides, the point is more what they did to CRYX's ability to kill Warcasters from range. Excepting the all mighty Leviathan that is.

Tionas

01-14-2010, 01:30 PM

Did I tell you all the story of me killing Amon Ad'raza with a leviathan. that was awesome.

but: Im not sure that she's going to be more horrid than anyone else. if her spell list is borked, then maybe, but hopefully she has a weak feat...

Jyggdrasil

01-14-2010, 01:36 PM

Besides, the point is more what they did to CRYX's ability to kill Warcasters from range.

Do people consider it 'ranged' to damage a caster using backlash and feedback, or other effects that damage casters without direct engagement?

Sounds kind of 'dirty' to me. ;)

Ghyrrshyld

01-14-2010, 01:53 PM

Do people consider it 'ranged' to damage a caster using backlash and feedback, or other effects that damage casters without direct engagement?

Sounds kind of 'dirty' to me. ;)
I would also consider a lightning bolt flying through the window and blowing my opponent out of his shoes dirty as well.

They happen about as often.

Jyggdrasil

01-14-2010, 01:57 PM

...but do you consider them 'ranged'?

People are constantly saying we are weak at range, but I wonder if part of that might be because we fixate on traditional RAT-based weapons and targeted spells.

It might not hurt to look a little wider.

Ghyrrshyld

01-14-2010, 02:03 PM

jonconcarne

01-14-2010, 02:09 PM

Well, there are all kinds of reasons that the Satyxis won't often kill someone doing Backlash + Feedback, but most of them are that the Jack has to be hurt a bunch of times without dying. Granted, that's easier in MK II, but still.

Also, it's kinda impossible against Enliven.

It's not impossible, it's just unlikely sometimes. Infantry is one of the best ways to get around Enliven. You just have to circle the jack's base enough that it can't move backwards. This is a little more difficult with the jack wall that Menoth can bring, but then they're not enlivening every jack usually. So if the Satyxis can reach the jack wall, you should have several different jacks to go wailing on, regardless of Enliven. *shrug* just my thoughts.

Jyggdrasil

01-14-2010, 02:09 PM

Ghyrr - The question I asked is rather broader than your response.

It was not limited to Feedback and Backlash. It was not predicated on a requirement to outright kill a warcaster and it was not limited to facing Menites who are fielding a Vassal.

Ghyrrshyld

01-14-2010, 02:26 PM

It's not impossible, it's just unlikely sometimes. Infantry is one of the best ways to get around Enliven. You just have to circle the jack's base enough that it can't move backwards. This is a little more difficult with the jack wall that Menoth can bring, but then they're not enlivening every jack usually. So if the Satyxis can reach the jack wall, you should have several different jacks to go wailing on, regardless of Enliven. *shrug* just my thoughts.
It's clearly impossible against Hordes. Or when there are no available Warjacks.

Ghyrr - The question I asked is rather broader than your response.
No. I would not consider it Ranged. It can be mitigated much easier than a ranged assassination can. Especially if something has True Sight.

NightMoor

01-14-2010, 02:26 PM

A RNG 14 Weapon Master gun?!? Is PP out of their minds? Why did we go through the whole painful MK2 rejig if they're just going to start putting out insane things again right away?

jonconcarne

01-14-2010, 02:33 PM

It's clearly impossible against Hordes. Or when there are no available Warjacks.

Way to take things out of context. It was in reference to Enliven making Backlash impossible, hence the rest of my post talking about that.

Lots of things have different levels of usefulness vs. Warmachine than Hordes. The Bloodgorgers are significantly better vs. Hordes than Warmachine (where they are still very good). It's not like a Hordes army will totally negate the usefulness of Satyxis anyways.

Jyggdrasil

01-14-2010, 02:39 PM

No. I would not consider it Ranged. It can be mitigated much easier than a ranged assassination can. Especially if something has True Sight.

OK, if its not 'ranged' what is it? How do you classify damage to a warcaster when they have not been directly targeted, or even engaged? People seem to think we are strong at melee and weak at range, but which of those does damage like this tally against?

And Feedback/Backlash are just the 1st means I thought of, there are others I am sure. Domspiral for example. Others?

ADDED - Basically, I wondering if there is a ranged-like dimension to our faction that we have been missing while fixating on RAT and directly targeted spells. It might not be much of a dimension, but if it helps its worth being aware of.

thebarbalag

01-14-2010, 04:52 PM

It's a pow 10. ROF 3 pow 10 is still a pow 10.

I've never gunned anyone down with Kaelyssa in my life. Wait, one sec. I got Morvanna once, but then again, Warlocks are more succeptable to her than Warcasters are.

Besides, the point is more what they did to CRYX's ability to kill Warcasters from range. Excepting the all mighty Leviathan that is.

I got pHaley last night with a shot from Kaelyssa on top half a dozen points of Backlash damage.

whatawookie1

01-14-2010, 05:45 PM

A RNG 14 Weapon Master gun?!? Is PP out of their minds? Why did we go through the whole painful MK2 rejig if they're just going to start putting out insane things again right away?

*ahem* pCaine can cast snipe, and then fire 4 times with his pow 12 guns. Boosting damage with each. I'd take that over what is likely to be a ROF 1 shot gun with weaponmaster any day of the week. Wait until the full rules for the model actually come out before you burst a blood vessel.

Mod_Redphantasm

01-14-2010, 06:00 PM

*ahem* pCaine can cast snipe, and then fire 4 times with his pow 12 guns. Boosting damage with each. I'd take that over what is likely to be a ROF 1 shot gun with weaponmaster any day of the week. Wait until the full rules for the model actually come out before you burst a blood vessel.

Agreed. Ranged assassination is nothing new. What seems to be throwing people is the weapon master. If it was a RNG 14, POW 15 rifle, would people be going this crazy?

NightMoor

01-14-2010, 08:12 PM

*ahem* pCaine can cast snipe, and then fire 4 times with his pow 12 guns. Boosting damage with each. I'd take that over what is likely to be a ROF 1 shot gun with weaponmaster any day of the week. Wait until the full rules for the model actually come out before you burst a blood vessel.

Weapon Master is a completely different animal. 4d6 on a ranged attack completely goes beyond the curve - it consistently crushes through ARM 21, it can one-shot some Caster pretty easily, it can potentially do 24+PWR in damage, god forbid the rules of the ability somehow combo together with some other way to get bonus damage.

whatawookie1

01-14-2010, 10:12 PM

Weapon Master is a completely different animal. 4d6 on a ranged attack completely goes beyond the curve - it consistently crushes through ARM 21, it can one-shot some Caster pretty easily, it can potentially do 24+PWR in damage, god forbid the rules of the ability somehow combo together with some other way to get bonus damage.

It also has the potential to do 4 + PWR I might add. Even at one dice less, I'd take the 4 shots over 1.

lastspartacus

01-14-2010, 11:31 PM

Sobek

01-15-2010, 03:52 AM

Gorg

01-15-2010, 04:00 AM

lets wait for her feat/spell list before we make that conclusion.

but i agree with Ghyrrshyld on the distance threat part. why did they made the coven spell assassination almost impossible when at the same time they give factions like ret and cygnar even more of that stuff and way more dangerous and harder to counter than stygian spam ever was? im mean coven is far from useless in mk2, but they are extremely limited to support only without an option to do anything in melee or ranged and with very limited dmg output with spells on their own. that makes them more onedimensional than in mk1 for me.

Jyggdrasil

01-15-2010, 05:24 AM

[Coven] they are extremely limited to support only without an option to do anything in melee or ranged and with very limited dmg output with spells on their own.

Alright, WRT melee I agree, but after that, what are you talking about?

Stygian Abyss - cost3 range10 POW12
On a critical hit, the model hit suffers Shadow Bind for one round. (A model suffering Shadow Bind suffers –3 DEF, and for one round when it advances it cannot move except to change facing.)

With Perfect Conjunction its pretty sick. Boosted POW 12's are looking at 22 damage on average and they can do that 3 times. Even if we assume they don't have PC they can cast this puppy 3 times straight or twice with boosts to hit or damage based on the target.

And yes, this probably requires an arc node, but that is not a change from mk1 to mk2. That arcnode also raises the threat range to a base width over 28". Not bloody bad. The only real change here from mk1 to mk2 is that nodes are now more precious. You know it, and so does the enemy, so you are going to need to protect your nodes carefully to ensure you can deliver the attack without exposing the still-squishy coven.

Gorg

01-15-2010, 06:02 AM

With Perfect Conjunction its pretty sick. Boosted POW 12's are looking at 22 damage on average and they can do that 3 times. Even if we assume they don't have PC they can cast this puppy 3 times straight or twice with boosts to hit or damage based on the target.

And yes, this probably requires an arc node, but that is not a change from mk1 to mk2. That arcnode also raises the threat range to a base width over 28". Not bloody bad. The only real change here from mk1 to mk2 is that nodes are now more precious. You know it, and so does the enemy, so you are going to need to protect your nodes carefully to ensure you can deliver the attack without exposing the still-squishy coven.

to be precisely: it gain 2'' range, lost 1 pow and the ability to render any model useless for one turn on crit(not like now just melee models). stygian abyss got heavily nerfed (considering changes to arcnodes, the spell itself, pc changes and more available defensive mechanics for enemies like stealth and so on which cryx has no way to ignore), i think we dont need to discuss that over again.

i can understand why it got nerfed, because in mk1 it was arcnode in the enemies casters face + stygian spam most of the time. it was boring, of course. but what i cant understand is why this playstyle is forbidden for cryx but others, like already mentioned ecaine, siege, garryth and most likely kara now too(even without a spell list, 2 shots from her weapon alone are more dangerous than 3 partial boosted stygians) may proceed at will with access to ignore defensive abilities which stygian was never been able of, at least not in that manner.

i played ecaine and siege quite some times now myself, and i think others of you did so too. do you really think its less boring playing them than it was with mk1 coven?

Jyggdrasil

01-15-2010, 06:11 AM

I totally get that there was a nerf to SA. My point is that its a far cry from "they made the coven spell assassination almost impossible". You may be onto something WRT the wider argument, but try to make your point accurately instead of dramatically. Hyperbole like that usually just undermines the strength of the underlying argument.

Temoinlanuit

01-15-2010, 07:00 AM

Uh, what hyperbole? Let's not beam sunshine up anyone's rear, it was a severe nerf. Gorg's post is accurate, even with his lack of hugging and free cookies for everyone.

Let's look at what was lost:

1. Damage - Lost 1d6+1 POW (spell change, conjunction change). Sure, you could use the focus to boost damage, but now it's costing you to boost to hit as well. Your run is much less effective. This one is huge, and a simple look at the numbers for runs against low and medium armor warcasters will show the difference. Against high arm, it doesn't matter much, but hey.

2. Cost - Ceteris paribus, it costs more to set up a run in Mk. 2 than in Mk. 1 due to increased arc node costs.

3. Insurance - Fail your assassination run? No problem! With the old Stygian Abyss, the enemy caster was probably blind, and not casting any offensive spells on their turn or having many options for (direct) retaliation.

4. Board Control - Blind was incredibly useful for neutering high value targets. SA could be used on a wide variety of targets outside of the caster. This is still true, actually, since Shadow bind is decent.. but it's no blind.

Micf2302

01-15-2010, 07:03 AM

And with FOC 9 + a node in the ennemy's back arc you'll rarely need to boost to hit... Which means that you can still reliably put out 3 STR 12 boosted shoots.

Jyggdrasil

01-15-2010, 07:12 AM

3 boosted POW12 shots, with other factors like backstrike and debuffs yet to consider, simply does not sound like an "almost impossible spell assassination" to me. Tho I grant you it is not the 'easy button' listed above.

YMMV Temoinlanuit, but here is a cookie and hug to help you get over it ;)

Temoinlanuit

01-15-2010, 09:02 AM

Something might be strong, but not an easy button. Almost invariably, though, an easy button is strong. And whether you're willing to use those words or not, that's something we lost.

Seems pointless to me to continue on this.

Regarding the OP - no real panic until we see abilities and spell list. Right now, all we have is something that's slightly better than Siege's rocket launcher. It's very good. But if that's all she has, we needn't be too worried. We really need some shooting mitigation though, as our closers have gotten much pricier... unless some not-too-distant future release for Cryx (Sirens?) has it, things are going to get more difficult - especially with other faction's releases.

Tionas

01-15-2010, 09:39 AM

Im with you Temoinlanuit. its getting harder and harder to close with the enemy and still have models left.

gold pants

01-19-2010, 02:57 PM

venethrax better be stoopid good

PPS_MrSoles

01-20-2010, 11:59 AM

The thing that may potentially annoy me, is that she already sounds better than the 'other sniper' in the game, Grim. As the existing hunter/sniper, Kara's rifle makes Grim's look like garbage. I'm also willing to bet that she'll have spells and abilities that also outdo the existing sniper in the game. I'm kind of afraid that they've gone through all this trouble to rebalance the game for MK II, then already break that balance even before MK II is fully released yet.

Is is possible your concept of "balance" is questionable? Let's set aside for a moment the fact you have only seen the stats for Sloan's weapon.. Not her spell list, stats, and any special rules that she has... And look at what we know about Grim... Do you see that ability called "Bait the Line"? Well a good player can use that ability to some pretty amazing advantage. Consulting the stats for Sloan's weapon, I see no such ability. Could it be there is more to Grim than the POW of his weapon? I just noticed, he also has spells that do stuff... And abilities... What I am starting to see where he offers a compelling play style all his own that goes beyond his gun...!

Jyggdrasil

01-20-2010, 12:03 PM

Nice to see you, but GOD I hope you haven't come to these forums looking for useful advice regarding your Gamer's Journal force ;)

Ghyrrshyld

01-20-2010, 12:12 PM

Is is possible your concept of "balance" is questionable? Let's set aside for a moment the fact you have only seen the stats for Sloan's weapon.. Not her spell list, stats, and any special rules that she has...
Or... OR.. maybe he was having this feeling that Grim should be thought of as the ultimate sniper (maybe fluff gives him that Idea, I wouldn't know), and that it seems to have been stolen?

Also, the balance complaint genie was probably let out of the bottle when the Black 13 was left at 4 points, so Sloan shouldn't be what kicks that off.

mellr0

01-20-2010, 12:14 PM

I would laugh my *** off if she actually had some rule like:

Sniper master: Her weapon only gains weapon master if she has her aiming bonus.

Or adds only +4 to jack allowance.....
or has defence and armour 13....
or the weapon itself cant be fired while moving.

and does anyone else note that model has no CC weapons, and is toting a huge rifle? unless she gets the gunfighter special rule or has some crappy knives... she might just be stuck with a rifle....

PPS_MrSoles

01-20-2010, 12:19 PM

Or... OR.. maybe he was having this feeling that Grim should be thought of as the ultimate sniper (maybe fluff gives him that Idea, I wouldn't know), and that it seems to have been stolen?

Also, the balance complaint genie was probably let out of the bottle when the Black 13 was left at 4 points, so Sloan shouldn't be what kicks that off.

Mark this day on your calendars. Ghyrrshyld has something negative to say.

Ghyrrshyld

01-20-2010, 12:21 PM

Mark this day on your calendars. Ghyrrshyld has something negative to say.
Wooah, hey. That was sort of uncalled for.

I was just saying that his FEELING was that Grim should be best as a sniper, and that it's worth addressing.

As to the B13 costing 4.. well. I stand by that as a mistake, but time will tell I guess :).

PPS_MrSoles

01-20-2010, 12:22 PM

and does anyone else note that model has no CC weapons, and is toting a huge rifle? unless she gets the gunfighter special rule or has some crappy knives... she might just be stuck with a rifle....

She's got a sword on her waist, but it isn't really her most prominent weapon.

PPS_MrSoles

01-20-2010, 12:23 PM

Wooah, hey. That was sort of uncalled for.

I was just saying that his FEELING was that Grim should be best as a sniper, and that it's worth addressing.

As to the B13 costing 4.. well. I stand by that as a mistake, but time will tell I guess :).

Sorry... Been reading through a number of other threads in addition to this one. But seriously, is there anything you like?

Jyggdrasil

01-20-2010, 12:25 PM

Mark this day on your calendars. Ghyrrshyld has something negative to say.

...must resist urge to .sig

jonconcarne

01-20-2010, 12:28 PM

...must resist urge to .sig

...why? :p

Ghyrrshyld

01-20-2010, 12:30 PM

Sorry... Been reading through a number of other threads in addition to this one. But seriously, is there anything you like?
I don't like all the guns I am seeing on the table now, and playing against Cygnar seems more like a chore than a game fairly often, which is not an entirely uncommon feeling for Cryxians, I might add.

That said, I DO like playing the Retribution, and it's nice to not have to spend focus or a huge amount of points to do anything significant at range now.

Creaux

01-20-2010, 12:34 PM

I don't like all the guns I am seeing on the table now

it's nice to not have to spend focus or a huge amount of points to do anything significant at range now.
:confused:

Well, I'll be less of a jerk and actually say something here...

do the cygnar players ever play each other? You should give them an overly enthusiastic play-by-play. Hammer home how awesome it is when a pair of longgunner units trades shots all game.

My initial response is necessarily coming from my viewpoint, as a person who likes a good ranged unit. I'm extremely happy about the new trenchers, though, 'cause I like a ranged unit that can also punch people with knives. I suppose I'm probably not what you're really complaining about, but I don't want to have to play your style of game. I want to play the game that I just recently got a new rulebook for.

Ghyrrshyld

01-20-2010, 12:36 PM

:confused:
Im speaking mostly of my Warcaster's activation there. When I want to kill something with my Warcaster with Cryx, I have 3 options, generally. Spell, Melee, eSkarre's hand cannon.

Walking Garryth up the field, Gunkata style is sort of liberating. It's almost like having 2 un-arcable spells that he can shoot a turn :).

PPS_MrSoles

01-20-2010, 12:39 PM

I don't like all the guns I am seeing on the table now, and playing against Cygnar seems more like a chore than a game fairly often, which is not an entirely uncommon feeling for Cryxians, I might add.

That said, I DO like playing the Retribution, and it's nice to not have to spend focus or a huge amount of points to do anything significant at range now.

That is something then... But is Cygnar fielding ranged units really all that new? Yes screening is gone, but units also have more flexibility in spreading out. Also, the passive ability to ignore Stealth and the like has been somewhat reduced. Certainly Cryx can field some amazing melee-centric forces that can go toe-to-toe with ranged heavy forces.

Ghyrrshyld

01-20-2010, 12:42 PM

That is something then... But is Cygnar fielding ranged units really all that new? Yes screening is gone, but units also have more flexibility in spreading out. Also, the passive ability to ignore Stealth and the like has been somewhat reduced.

Kind of. Cygnar has always fielded ranged units, but it seems that with the changes to the Stormguard and Sword Knights making them less attractive (I don't see the changes being that huge to be honest, but that's what I am told), the Cygnarian players hereabouts have sort of gone "all in" with their ranged units.

But the ability to block Line of Sight to important models has been SERIOUSLY reduced, which is what I am having the most trouble with when combined with losing screening. It used to be that even if an opponent was capable of moving far enough to get Line of sight, they would still have screening to deal with. Now, it's just a matter of moving a little bit to pretend the other model isn't even there.

Also, there is an entire unit now that ignores stealth at range, that I am now seeing popping up in Merc armies as well as every single Cygnar army, so maybe it just feels like the ability to ignore stealth has been made less of a corner case, and more of a every day, every army kind of thing, while not being true.

Again, this is a feeling I am getting, just like my frustration is a feeling.
Edit:

My initial response is necessarily coming from my viewpoint, as a person who likes a good ranged unit. I'm extremely happy about the new trenchers, though, 'cause I like a ranged unit that can also punch people with knives.
I would like one too, but I got Revenant Crew instead.

whatawookie1

01-20-2010, 12:55 PM

What I am starting to see where he offers a compelling play style all his own that goes beyond his gun...!

Its no use MrSoles, I've tried talking sense in these threads and it will not stick. First its all, "WTFBBQ, Kara Sloan is borken and I only have the stats on her gun!" or its, "OMGTTYL I can't believe Kara Sloan's is going to be a better X than caster Y! This is unconscionable. Give caster Y such an awesome gun, my caster must be the bestest!". And then it degenerates into "BFFOMFG! Guns are borken period! I can't believe there are so many guns in a game based on a steampunk setting pioneering guns! Rantrantrantrant".

Just accept, and join the Kara Sloan bandwagon. Did you know that when she is put on the table, all Cryxian bonejacks insta-asplode? The model for Denny actually sheds tears too!

DemonCalibre

01-20-2010, 12:56 PM

I think that is your problem bro.

If you actually consider Revenants a ranged unit, and want them held to the standards of Trenchers, I think that is why you have so much disapointment.

Ghyrrshyld

01-20-2010, 01:01 PM

I think that is your problem bro.

If you actually consider Revenants a ranged unit, and want them held to the standards of Trenchers, I think that is why you have so much disapointment.
It was a joke. I was saying that anytime we slap a gun on one of our units, they become the Revenant Crew, and nobody wants that, now do we? :)

Yes, Gang is great, but the unit dies when someone looks at them, and that 7 inch command area doesn't do much to keep the leader alive.

DemonCalibre

01-20-2010, 02:00 PM

Funny, I actually like and Play with Revanents.

Honestly they are actually very solid hand to hand troops, some of the best that cryx have(mat 7 pow 11/12 is very good). Death Bound is hit and miss, when it works you dominate your opponent, when it doesn't you get very little out of a 9 point unit.

Honestly I generally don't have any problems keeping my Quarter Master alive, to anything other then Random AOE drifts(which I LOATHE, I would kill for a unit/model with Girded, Revs would rock if the Quartermaster couldn't be easily AOEd)

Edit: I applogize for going slightly off topic

Gerlak

01-20-2010, 09:18 PM

damn cygnar

GERLAK WILL EAT YOUR SOUL

Jyggdrasil

01-29-2010, 11:45 AM

Spoilers are appearing in the Swan forums.

RAT8 and she can, apparently, give up her aiming bonus (meaning she cannot have moved) to pierce stealth (http://www.privateerpressforums.com/showpost.php?p=136979&postcount=171). She does not seem to have anything that allows the rest of her force to ignore stealth.

More here...
http://www.privateerpressforums.com/showpost.php?p=135712&postcount=139

2LiveIs2Die

01-29-2010, 12:07 PM

Let's look at what was lost:

I'm sorry, but i disagree with "lost". It changed, what didn't change? If something didn't need fixing that meant it was balanced before mark 2 changes. The coven is freaking amazing in mark 2, and I like them better, but either way there is no point to compare.

For instance, a positive change is you can't reliably do stupid crap like auto kill 90% of casters in the game with spall spam. That's good, the coven was boring to play and play against. Balance is better than auto-win || auto-include stuff.

The coven can be in base to base with the ball to gain stealth and at the same time be in a perfect conjunction, which was impossible with the old rules. Which in turn really means they have 9 focus and a list of spells that cost 1 and 2, so, with a FOC 9, do you really need to boost? Even against ashlynn and caine you only need a 7 on 2d6, and on an average 14 you need 5 on 2d6 to hit. So I don't forsee myself being upset that they are not auto boosted.

Insurance? Really, it got better. If you -need- to crit, and expect to fail the assassination run, they can't move. Aside from that, FOC 9 POW 12 might as well be a machine gun for any infantry and solos that come near you. Pop off man hunters, mage hunter assassins, eyriss, and the like with ease.

And this may just be me, but a stalker can do a better assassination run than the coven ever could, present or past, using the coven's current list-o-spells.
For example:
With infernal machine he gains +2 mat and speed, making for a:
SPD 9
MAT 9
With ghost walk he will ignore free strikes, and with curse of shadows he will get to a POW 14 effective on weapons.
And lastly with veil of mists he will walk/charge straight through the models block your past to the caster, all together costing you: 1 (im) + 2 (ghost walk) + 2 (veil) + 2 (curse) Leaving you with 2 focus on the stalker unless you upkept either infernal machine, veil, or curse, which is likely, so 3 focus.

Giving you this:
A speed 9 jack, 12.5" threat on the charge, with mat 9, pow 14, that ignores focus and spells for DEF/ARM, and doesn't allow tought or transfer, with 2 attacks to start and 2 focus left after a charge, so:
MAT 9 P+S 14+3d6 (charge)
MAT 9 P+S 14+3d6 (boosted damage)
MAT 9 P+S 14+2d6 (buy, straight damage)
or
[4x] MAT 9 P+S 14+2d6 (one on charge)

Silopolis

01-29-2010, 01:16 PM

So, if you're within 14" of her and there's even a sliver of LOS to your caster, you're eating a RAT 10 (because she didn't move and thus gets +2 for aiming) POW 12 + 3d6 boostable gunshot in the face, regardless of stealth or Incorporeal. RAT 10 will hit Deneghra in a forest on 8s, and that damage will bring her to half damage in one shot, or down to ~6 damage if boosted. Next round, Denny dies. Reasonable to assume one of those rounds, Kara's suffering from The Withering, so if that's the case, she must achieve average rolls to get the same result.

Loss of screening has made playing a melee army all about fiddly placement, base-to-base, and auto-includes like Gorman to block LOS. Stealthed melee forces mean nothing, because they don't block LOS to casters, and that's the only thing that seems important when you're facing Kara.

This is before her spells and feat come into play. But unless she has a personal anti-synergy of Borkanian proportions, I can't imagine she doesn't have something that makes shooting better on her side of the table.

It's beatable, sure, but I didn't get into Warmachine to creep along behind smoke walls. I'll be watching closely to see how this meta plays out.

Jorek

01-29-2010, 01:26 PM

Typhael

01-29-2010, 02:15 PM

Silopolis

01-29-2010, 02:44 PM

Venethrax had better be *damn* good, because I'm getting sick of falling behind.

Two ways of seeing this situation:

A) Pessimism that Cygnar is getting great stuff, and a crushing feeling that there's no way Cryx will get anything this good (see: Cyclone vs. Corruptor), or:

B) Optimism that if Cygnar is getting something this badass, the rest of us will get something similarly awesome (see: ... The Siren, I suppose).

Being that I want to be a better man, I try for B. But I keep landing on A. ;)

Tionas

01-29-2010, 02:51 PM

Its not that falling behind is the appropriate term, I believe, but I didnt start warmachine to get shot in the face. over, and over, and over again, regardless or faction. Guns should be an integral part of an army, not the focus. and when guns become more than support, then the melee standing in front, become better because they have to kill less by the function of the guns killing more.

I'll still play warmachine, Im sure. It just might not be cryx, especialy. while we dont Auto-loose to guns by far, its boring, boring, boring to be shot to peices every game, not having even a clue of whats going to make it there or not, and then have to salvage a game from whatever your opponent happened not to kill.

I started this game, and it seemed to me at the time, for combat. its what was lacking in both 40k and fantasy, the Guns ruled the board, and some armies, didn'd have guns and got pounded.

now, Im seeing that now, that guns are THE force multiplier. most armies have enough ways around stealth, and incorporeal, and even high defense, that while guns were good before, they are stupid-good. to the level where I see 50%+ of points being dedicated to guns in a fair number (not all) of the armies.

Cryx isnt behind, Cryx is just getting boring, fighting the same fight every night.
/end rant.

Silopolis

01-29-2010, 02:59 PM

Cryx isnt behind, Cryx is just getting boring, fighting the same fight every night.

Yeah, I dusted off my Cryx the other night and met up with a pHaley gun list. That game was so anti-fun that it's actually putting me off the Retribution list I was thinking of getting, because I don't want to play a game with that much loss already built into the list before the game.

I certainly don't want my undead hordes sneaking gingerly up the board behind smoke and cowering in crowds because there's a girl with a gun on the other side of the table.

The loss of Screening is one of those Dubya-Tee-Eff things that I'd love her hear an explanation for. It's not like remembering "+2 to Def for having an equal-or-larger-based model partly blocking view" was fiddly compared to some of the other shenanigans that go on in the game.

Jorek

01-29-2010, 04:09 PM

Except for the absurd amount of WM shots Sloan can generate on her feat turn, and all that...

I know that eCaine can take "unlimited" shots, but Sloan just seems silly. Venethrax had better be *damn* good, because I'm getting sick of falling behind.

Yeah, the absurd amount of 3!! shots. Unbelievable...

Siege manages 2 shots - one against half amor. Functionally, you are dead either way. And with ways to negate intervening models, smoke and forests.

eCaine manages up to 10 shots with escalating damage. He kills not only your caster, but a lot of other stuff too - and doesn´t care about LOS at all if he can reach you via gatecrasher. Edit: Killing other stuff too can be a factor in 2 caster games.

Kara is by far the least troublesome of the bunch...

Jyggdrasil

01-29-2010, 05:05 PM

So, if you're within 14" of her and there's even a sliver of LOS to your caster, you're eating a RAT 10 (because she didn't move and thus gets +2 for aiming) POW 12 + 3d6 boostable gunshot ... regardless of stealth or Incorporeal.

No. What I read, and then posted above, says she has to give up aiming to negate stealth.

The ability to pierce stealth was THE big red line we (or me, at least) as a faction were most worried about. So it turns out the glass is 1/2 full. She can do it, but has to give up aiming (and thus moving as well). Even more importantly, she has appears to have NO way of enabling elements of her force to pierce stealth.

As for boosting, she is also FOC6, so not a whole lot to play with if she is casting/upkeeping and/or feeding her jacks. 5 would have been sweet, 7 a worry. 6 feels about right.

Typhael

01-29-2010, 08:49 PM

Yeah, the absurd amount of 3!! shots. Unbelievable...

Siege manages 2 shots - one against half amor. Functionally, you are dead either way. And with ways to negate intervening models, smoke and forests.

eCaine manages up to 10 shots with escalating damage. He kills not only your caster, but a lot of other stuff too - and doesn´t care about LOS at all if he can reach you via gatecrasher. Edit: Killing other stuff too can be a factor in 2 caster games.

Kara is by far the least troublesome of the bunch...

Ah, so she doesn't get (as a member of her own battlegroup) a free shot every time one of her jacks kills one or more models on the feat turn? That's how I read it.

I think the Screening/LoS thing was explained. "Models can be more spaced; stealth is harder to pierce". It's in this thread. I think it's a horrible justification, but there you go.

bouncymischa

01-29-2010, 09:57 PM

Ah, so she doesn't get (as a member of her own battlegroup) a free shot every time one of her jacks kills one or more models on the feat turn? That's how I read it.

From what I've heard, a model in her battlegroup can only make one extra attack as part of her feat. So she can only make one extra attack total, no matter how many models her jacks kill.

ArchonXVI

01-29-2010, 10:53 PM

That is something then... But is Cygnar fielding ranged units really all that new? Yes screening is gone, but units also have more flexibility in spreading out. Also, the passive ability to ignore Stealth and the like has been somewhat reduced. Certainly Cryx can field some amazing melee-centric forces that can go toe-to-toe with ranged heavy forces.
To be fair, I think the main thing is this; Cryx's defenses have more holes in them now than they ever did before, or at least seems that way.

Stealth is ignored by the gunmages+UA, a unit that I see in very nearly every Cygnar list. Because they're accurate pow 10s, I might as well not have stealth or incorporeal when I'm fighting Cygnar- their primary shooting unit ignores it with every caster. Long ago, only certain casters could ignore it... now, every list does.

Menoth now has the Vanquisher. This wouldn't be quite so bad if it wasn't for auto-fire under the template... which guarantees that two-thirds of the models beneath the template will die. Nowhere near as bad as Cygnar, but it hurts. Their long-range template fire got better in general though, and that sucks.

And that's the long and the short of it really; Cygnar and Menoth got massive improvements for dealing with stealth, and Everblight always ignored it. As such, the two major shooting factions don't care about our defenses, and neither does Menoth. It really feels, at least to me, that things like stealth are much weaker now than they ever were.

Edit:
Also, the passive ability to ignore Stealth and the like has been somewhat reduced.As an aside... I just don't feel it. I know a few examples of this, but in my experience the addition of a full unit that ignores it, as well as the dramatic increase in the strength of template weapons against stealth armies has swung the needle the opposite way- I find that ignoring stealth is /much/ more common now.

Zerosoul

01-29-2010, 11:20 PM

From what I've heard, a model in her battlegroup can only make one extra attack as part of her feat. So she can only make one extra attack total, no matter how many models her jacks kill.

So she only gets three RAT 10 RNG 16 POW 12 weaponmaster shots. Whew. That's a relief.

Seon

01-29-2010, 11:45 PM

lynch + fire beacon, was all she needed anyway. :)

hauntingexperience

01-29-2010, 11:51 PM

So she only gets three RAT 10 RNG 16 POW 12 weaponmaster shots. Whew. That's a relief.

My god... :eek:

Average of 25 damage if its boosted (taking average of 3.5). 3 Shots if boosted hitting defence 20 average (again 3.5).
Denny - def 16, arm 14, 16 life
11 damage per boosted hit
2 shots to kill IF SHE CAN IGNORE STEALTH

eDenny - same as denny
11 damage per boosted hit
2 shots to kill

Asphyxious - def 15, arm 16, 18 life
9 damage per boosted hit
2 shots to kill

eAsphyxious - def 15, arm 16, 18 life
9 damage per boosted hit
2 shots to kill

Skarre - def 16, arm 15, 16 life
10 damage per boosted hit
2 shots to kill
- - Under Feat
def 16, arm 20, 11 life
5 damage per hit
3 shots to kill

eSkarre - def 16, arm 15, 16 life
10 damage per boosted hit
2 shots to kill
- - Under Feat
SURVIVES!!!!!!! but for 1 turn only

Goreshade - def 15, arm 16, 17 life
9 damage per boosted hit
3 shots to kill due to Deathwalker

eGoreshade - def 15, arm 16, 17 life
9 damage per boosted hit
2 shots to kill

Terminus - def 14, arm 18, 20 life
7 damage per boosted hit
3 shots to kill
MAY SURVIVE ALL 3 IF CAMPS FOCUS but for 1 turn only

Witch Coven - def 16, arm 12, 8 life each
13 damage per boosted hit
1 shot to kill each witch, 3 shots total IF SHE CAN IGNORE STEALTH

Mortenebra - def 15, arm 16, 16 life
9 damage per boosted hit
2 shots to kill

BENDER

01-30-2010, 03:43 AM

TORUK DAMN IT! The winnie the pooh stories and re-assurances that Kara isnt hiding under their beds isn't helping any more. I may have to resort to medicating my army just to get a wink of sleep :(

"Can't sleep....scary mean lady will shoot me.....Can't sleep....scary mean lady will shoot me Can't sleep....scary mean lady will shoot me Can't sleep....scary mean lady will shoot me Can't sleep....scary mean lady will shoot me Can't sleep....scary mean lady will shoot me Can't sleep....scary mean lady will shoot me Can't sleep....scary mean lady will laugh at my warcaster, shoot him....and THEN shoot me..."