Khador Vs Menoth

[Gedaning]

Hi, Im new to warmachine and I'm going to play a in a MKII 35 point tournament at my local gaming shop called All things fun. I will be using this Khodar Army

Forward Commander Sorscha
Beast 09
Destroyer
Full WG + UA + Joe + 3 Rockets
Great Bears
Bokur

Now I', pretty sure that I will face at least 3-4 Menoth army's. So I was wondering what general strategy's I should use against Menoth, and in specific if this list will be able to deal wit knights Exemplar(I know at least one list, probably more, will be using them and Seneschal). Thanks, I know these kinda questions are hard to answer because different army's, even within the same faction, can vary so wildly. I think most of them will be using High Exemplar Kreoss (i know at least one of them) because its in the battlebox.

[Pikaed]

Menoth is very hard to deal with when you use Sorscha, mainly because of the Covenant (no stationary and no knockdown in a 10' radius). In this case, since you are using ESorscha, you will probably have some chance anyway (though expect to lose a lot...). My two cents:

- If the other guys are playing Kreoss, simply make sure that you are not caught in the area of the feat with Sorscha and the Bokur. Calculate Kreoss's charge range plus control area (should be 22 inches) and stay away from him that distance with Sorscha.

- Consider, however, Sorscha's threat range: 19 inches. If you have a good assassination run, you can try (pop your feat, and kill him!).

- Against Menoth, you have two primary targets: the Choir, and the Vassal. You can certainly try to kill the Covenant, but it is very very hard and I am not sure it is worth the effort. Both Choir and the Vassall must stand 3 inches away from the jack they affect, so they should be roughly around the centre of the table if your opponent intends to assault. But with Kreoss I don't think he will. Consider that the Winterguard most likely will not be able to shoot at Menoth's warjacks, given Safe Passage, so use them to kill the support units. The best units we have to this end are the Kossites and the Widowmakers but, given you list, the Winterguard and particularly the Rockets are probably a good solution (cast shatter storm on the winterguard, so that even the Blunderbusses will make an AOE). And, clearly, bombard them with the Destroyer. You can also use Sorscha's gun against the Choir, if you are within range (you can even pop forward, shoot, and then get away with Cyclone). Remember: Kill support.


- Take Iron Flesh on the Great Bears: they cannot be knocked down and in this way will have DEF 16, which is good. Obviously, Kreoss can strip upkeeps, but he will have to spend at least 2 Focus. No: 1 focus, given the Hierophant. Anyway: Take Iron Flesh on the Great Bears and push forward with them and with your Warjacks.

- Beware of the Redeemer(s), particularly against the Winterguard. Spread the unit, and take cover.

- Play aggressively, in general. But do not underestimate their jack if the Choir is alive. They hit as much hard as ours, probably more.

- And yes, Menoth is nearly broken..... :o

[Malebolgia]

One thing that works for me very well is Alexia + Risen. One of the most annoying things about Menoth is a Warjack with the Vassal's Enliven on it (if you damage it, the jack may move its SPD without taking free strikes). It makes destroying Menoth warjacks really difficult as you one-hit it and it will move back then. In his turn he walks up and hits you a lot with +2/+2...ouch!
Great thing about Risen is that they can surround warjacks with ease. They're dirt cheap, you'll get new ones and they run 12". Run it around the warjack to box it in and then send in your jack. This way he can't run away and you can trounce it well. If you send in a jack (or unit/solo) with reach, you can even make sure he can't pinch you without getting rid of the Risen first.

And in general the nice thing about Menoth is that you can still predict half of their army (like in MKI): 1-2 Vassals, Choir, Covenant and very often the Avatar. So use this when building your armies. Don't build anti-lists as these rarely work, but make sure your guys can deal with them in a good way.

Assault Kommandos, for example, are an EXCELLENT choice when facing off against Menoth. Vanquishers, Temple Flame Guards (with the UA's special ability), Zealots and offensive spells from the warcasters are fire-based and thus have a hard time against AK's. AK's need support though as their weapons don't do a lot of damage and their MAT isn't the best. So if you want to use them effectively, pick a warcaster that boostst them well (Irusk for example).

Don't rely too much on units. The Harbinger's and E-Severius' Fear of God will lower the effectiveness of your powerful units like Iron Fang Pikemen, Uhlans or Bearforce 3 A LOT (no charges or Shield Wall hurts a lot). In addition, Menoth can deal units very well with Redeemers, Vanquishers or Zealots. The Winterguard are a strong choice though as most of their action is about moving+shooting and it doesn't involve charges a lot and no special actions. So Fear of God doesn't mean a thing for them most of the time.

When taking on Menoth always focus on the support. Menoth is all about synergy and building buffs. Get rid of those things and the rest becomes bland. In addition, most Menoth warcasters can't take the hurt very well. Kreoss is a very powerful warcaster, but DEF14/ARM15 is laughable in defensive terms. So if you can survive the pop n' drop turn, hit him hard! So either take out the support and wither him down or go straight for the throat. Although hard to do with defensive warcasters, the best defense is all out offense!

[Marth]

I am actually rather thrilled by the thought that Lady Z (Zerkova) has a certain edge against PoM in the form of Antimagical Ward. Not so much against Kreoss, however... :(

[hoya4life3381]

Don't forget that every Menoth player also takes Rhupert for toughness and moving through terrain.

The strange thing when facing Menoth now for me is how to counter their Temple Flame Guard. They are as cheap as WG, but are very surviveable. If they have Defender's Ward on them or Ashen Veil (no ARM buff), they get up do DEF 15/ARM 19. Then you add in the +2 set defense and charging them is no easy proposition to charge them. Oh yeah, they also have Tough from Rhupert! Countering them with multi-wound stuff like MOW or Uhlans also doesn't seem to work because the TFG cause fire and can whittle down those models.

What's funny is that in MK1 Menoth had the darndest time dealing with my Iron Fang Pikeman. Now the shoe is on the other foot.

For your list:

I have yet to try a WG spray against TFG, but I assume it would be effective.

Bokur will be useful if he takes a heavy shooting list with AOE's that can kill your WG and also a Reckoner that can snipe at eSorscha.

Enliven and the spell version Hasten are really nasty on their jacks. It totally screws with your attack allocation.

[Gedaning]

Thanks a lot guys, I apreciate the help. Ya I sorta figured that with the hole syniergy thing going on for Menoth killing their support would be a good plan. I think a lot of the Menoth players are going to also use the knights Exemplar and Seneschal. I can only assume that a way to deal with the exemplar is to AOE them down and then kill of the stragglers with high pow models like my warjacks and bears. But does anyone know if the Seneshal's RIGHTEOUS FURY was replaced by bond of brotherhood or if its still there, because I can see his armor and strangth getting to monstrous portions if its even +1 armor and strength since its any warrior.

[Marth]

That's what widowmakers are for. Finish 4 of 6 with an AoE (BoB only kicks in afterwards, since all attacks are simultaneous), snipe the other two. They can also take care of the seneshal, but remember to kill him LAST, unless you want him to turn into the energizer bunny from hell.

[Gedaning]

ya well i don't have widowmaker yet and I want to play with the list for a wile. So for the near future I don't have access to the widowmakers.

[mladjanobugarce]

Answer to Menoth is very simple - A&H !
add Behemoth and p.Vlad and you make 15 points damage to average Menoth heavy/turn + you ignore no shooting song.

[Marth]

The bit with the ignorance of Hymn of Passage due to A&H magic bullet ability is the most important, I think.

[Moonblade]

There are three simplest ways to defeat Protectorate:
1. Gun their supports. Without Choir and Vassal, Protectorate 'jacks are just average clanking metals. They will have hard time damaging Khadoran armor and harder time surviving your attacks. Without the Covenant Sorscha will have a usable feat which can be very devastating.

2. AOE their infantry. Temple Flameguards, Knights Exemplar, Holy Zealots, they mostly die to boosted AOE damages. Moreover the Knights don't trigger their bond before AOE resolves, so if your shot managed to get 3 or 4 of them, they all have the same ARM.

3. Be aggressive. Kreoss players tend to focus on Pop & Drop assassination, so use your Great Bears and Beast-09 to crush enemy models before Sorscha gets up front. If you manage to get the first strike and destroys his key 'jacks (Redeemers most often) or at least tie them up, Pop & Drop would be very hard to pull off.

[Waaargh]

pKreoss's feat is strong, and will disrupt your lines. It's a good idea to try and have him using it prematurely, so it will only affect some units. This can be achieved by having layered lines - so he might get some the WG, but others go free to rock on next turn. Also the warjacks can just stand up for a Focus, so they are not completely neutered by the feat though they can't attack at full strength. This means they can relatively safely move in positions where they can be KD'ed. And, you have a good armsrace tool in your own feat, who will keep their cool longest and wait for the right moment to play their feat? That alone can force Kreoss to use his too early.

[hoya4life3381]

There are three simplest ways to defeat Protectorate:
1. Gun their supports. Without Choir and Vassal, Protectorate 'jacks are just average clanking metals. They will have hard time damaging Khadoran armor and harder time surviving your attacks. Without the Covenant Sorscha will have a usable feat which can be very devastating.

2. AOE their infantry. Temple Flameguards, Knights Exemplar, Holy Zealots, they mostly die to boosted AOE damages. Moreover the Knights don't trigger their bond before AOE resolves, so if your shot managed to get 3 or 4 of them, they all have the same ARM.

3. Be aggressive. Kreoss players tend to focus on Pop & Drop assassination, so use your Great Bears and Beast-09 to crush enemy models before Sorscha gets up front. If you manage to get the first strike and destroys his key 'jacks (Redeemers most often) or at least tie them up, Pop & Drop would be very hard to pull off.

Temple Flameguard will generally not be killed by AOE splash damage with ARM 17 and possibly 19 with Defender's Ward. Boosting to hit them directly is sort of not worth it either to kill one model. Add in Rhupert's tough and you might not do squat.

Saying killing Choir and Vassal isn't as easy to accomplish. Generally,they are in the very back and if you can get to them, that means you can probably get to their caster. The only unit I know that can reliably threaten them is Kossites. Widdowmakers going after them just doesn't work . I suppose if you brick up and let Menoth advance toward you as much as possible, you might be able to pick off some of the Choir if the opponent advances them too far.

[jack frost]

all you have to remember is that menoth is all about taking your choices away and stopping you from doing what you'd like.

if they say no shooting my jacks, then hit them with spells. if they enliven it (or whatever spell let's them move away) then freeze it first and then smash it.

it's something you'll have to get used to but every thing you want to do will take an extra step of effort to do so you really can't make as many mistakes as against other players.

good luck, and let us know how it goes!

[Gedaning]

Ya my army at the vary least should be fun with 4 potential aoe's (possibly more with eSorscha's Shatter storm spell) and grape shot plus beast 09 and great bears of Gallowswood(which i'll prob use as a strike force against hard targets and such more then a front line unit) seem like they can be pretty devastating:).