what "sucks" in menoth?

[Strange_Eric]

I'm curious as to what all people consider to be weak units/models in the PoM. Since I'm continuously hearing that the faction is over powered. I would like to be able to field perceived crappy models and beat up my opponents anyway. Its a fun challenge I think :-)

Unless menoth is just that broken lol

[SnakeEyes]

Repenter
Cleansers
Deliverers
Allegiant of the Order of the Fist solo
Knights Exemplar Seneschal

Arguably, the Dervish and Devout are weak outside of Amon lists.

[Necra-Chi]

Repenter is too good to be on that list.

[buddah3602]

i have to disagree on the Repenter.....sprays are just too good now

[LordGrimlok]

Agree with Allegiant and Seneschal. I like the Repenter. Still experimenting with cleansers, but I'm liking them so far.

[Garth]

Dervish
Devout
FoS
Cleanser
Deliverer
Paladins
Vilmon
Idrians
Castigator
Zealots
Monolith Bearer
Vengers
Rhoven
Allegiant
Seneschal
Gravus

NO NYSS HUNTERS!!!



This is why PoM has so many auto-includes. Most of the other stuff is much too weak. The rest is ok or even very good.

[Soulblighter]

The Guardian also seems a bit too weak. Its basically just a Crusader with an ArcNode and Reach some gimmicky extras that arnt really worth +3 points.

[buddah3602]

Dervish
Devout
FoS
Cleanser
Deliverer
Paladins
Vilmon
Idrians
Castigator
Zealots
Monolith Bearer
Vengers
Rhoven
Allegiant
Seneschal
Gravus

NO NYSS HUNTERS!!!



This is why PoM has so many auto-includes. Most of the other stuff is much too weak. The rest is ok or even very good.


Some of the things on this list are very good depending on what caster you use. But its all situational. Im actually a big fan of the Castigator. And FoS is phenomenal when you run it with Reznik. All boosted melee attacks for 1 focus? Upkeep Iron Aggression on the Avatar, and for 2 focus, you get 4 boosted melee attacks.

[Justicator]

Repenter
Cleansers
Deliverers
Allegiant of the Order of the Fist solo
Knights Exemplar Seneschal

Arguably, the Dervish and Devout are weak outside of Amon lists.

Have to disagree here with some of this.

I field Repenters all the time. At 4 points he's a great light jack. With eFeora and a Choir, they're amazing.

Cleansers cheap unit full of Sprays ... I like it. Pluse the incinerate order is cool. Plan on using these with my Castigator for a mobile pillar of fire and fists.

Deliverers do very interesting things with the Rocket Volleys, I like them as a skirmish unit. Sure they're not that reliable, but they really give the opponent something to think about.

Dervish I like a lot with any of our Jack casters. 4 Points for fast offense can carve out a unit of infantry pretty quick, or combine attack to crack a heavy jack in a pinch very nice. I plan on buying a pile of them to field with Raza, Reznik and eFeora.

Order of the Fist ... I haven't play it yet... but Theorymachining on it I can see it as disappointing, rumor has it they got tough though, so maybe?

Zombie Seneschal is good for a higher point game or a troop heavy game, but I'd rather field Vilmon/Paladins over him any day.

Devout I'm not that impressed with, but I plan on using mine to escort things into the fray - and the Menofixer will help. Run my paladins behind him to get them deeper into enemy lines before I slow them down. Have him jump in front of the Walking Bullseye (Avatar) of Menoth.

...

Things that I think suck:
Guardian - 9 points of nothing
Our Cavalry - Expensive and not really worth it
Rhoven & Bodyguards - Compared to every other character unit ... wow they suck.

...

Things I'm disappointed in, but don't necessarily suck:
Templar - boring boring boring boring
Bastions - For the points I'm spending on them I'd like either more survivability, speed or offensive potential out of them
Castigator - Shoulda been 7 points, especially compared to Kodiak, Crusader and Iron Clad

[Lanz]

Nothing sucks in PoM. Some stuff is used less than others because too many players don't experiment with their own synergy, they just take what's obvious or what other people say, and run with that.

I can't think of anything that is truely terrible, everything has a use, its just a matter of whether or not you need it.

[paradox]

Repenter
Cleansers
Deliverers
Allegiant of the Order of the Fist solo
Knights Exemplar Seneschal

Arguably, the Dervish and Devout are weak outside of Amon lists.
I have found the repenter, dervish and devout to all be great at their roles. Cleansers are GOLD for me. Haven't had alot of play with seneschal, monk, or deliverer yet, though the monk does seem to have gotten a rough deal.

For me, it's Vilmon that lets me down every time now. I avoided playing him much in MK1 cause he was so stoopid-good. Being reduced to just one attack is sad times. And he is so very easy to kill now. He should have been costed to 2pts or kept quick strike (or gotten cleave, or thresher, at the very least). Now, I'd take a seneschal or paladin over Vilmon any day. That is a sad statement. :(

[Soylent]

That list is bunk. My opinion is if you're looking to buy models you're not sure how they play, proxy them first for a couple weeks and see how they perform. I will say the Repenter is deadly as an assassination tool as well as troop clearer. Seneschal beats just as hard as it used to, it just doesn't slam as far(it's done a lot for me). Deliverers may surprise you. I haven't played with the Cleansers and the Monk solo yet so I can't say there.

So while it may not be the answer you want to hear, it's probably best you make up your own mind until things settle in after awhile.

[n00buaddib]

The only thing on my list would be Allegiant. But I never gave him a go so I suppose I could be surprised...probably not though. Oh yeah, and eKreoss. :P

[Soylent]

Odd, I'm finding eKreoss to be very solid. I've become quite fond of playing him.

[n00buaddib]

I haven't played him much either (only two games recently) but...he dies quite easily. Could have been stupid Legion I was playing against, I'll test him against a normal faction one day.

[MoDination]

Nothing does or has sucked for PoM (exception being the pre-errata Repenter). A huge factor is your personal play style. I regularly ran Amon lists Mk I and I dominated most games with it. I had a friend who couldn't play the old man to save his own life yet he worked well enough for me, similarly I was never into playing Reznik but that was his favorite guy in the world.

The only problem I have with the Allegiant is that no one will touch him around here so by the time he gets far enough to do anything the game is over. The severe swing in Idrians from a melee based skirmisher to ranged still irks me a lot as I don't care for ranged armies much and Idrians were my favorite unit (fluff wise).
I would like Deliverers to have arcing fire so they can shoot over our own troops more than passed enemy.

[Warpriest]

I've used the Allegiant several times in Mk2, he's not as bad as many make him out to be. I run him first turn, then move to engage something and use Shifting Winds. They can attack him and likely miss letting him move to engage something else, or they can move away from him and take a 9+4d6 freestrike. Basically I use him to mess with my opponents positioning. I don't care if he kills anything.

[SteveinNYC]

I love the Devout because of shield guard and reach. He's in every list I field, and he always keeps important things alive.

I like Vilmon because he can deliver the last blow to a jack when I fall short of taking it out, or for the assassination run. With reach and that much damage, he brings the pain. I really like him with eKreoss and the Testament.

I feel like the Guardian should be good, but I have yet to make him work to the level I think he can.

I want the Castigator to be good, but I don't think it is. I'm going to run it with eFeora and cross my fingers.

There's plenty of stuff I don't like, but that's more because it doesn't fit my play style.

[HellaJeff]

I haven't played much, I have a battlegroup so must of my list building is theory based.

Having said that I think warpriest is a smart cookie with his monk idea. I may have to use that. :)

And for Buddah, you seem to have a solid idea how to run one list. And probably don't usemany strategies outside it. Menoth has crazy cool strategies, as long as you dont play them like they are a different army.

[MoDination]

Castigator is good for Menoth due to being one of our faster heavies. Also, the two 16(18) fists can scrap a jack easily. While I personally turn to my reckoners (always have, always will), castigator can be good as well.

[squidstudios]

Covenant is weak. A medium base that counts as a small? C'mon.

Vassal is pretty stinky too. He doesn't even have a melee attack!!

Redeemer loses as well. Never hits anything, and his beak is round.

[buddah3602]

i run 2 casters. usually Efeora or Reznik. For some reason, i really like those 2, lol

[AmonadRodrigues]

Covenant is weak. A medium base that counts as a small? C'mon. Vassal is pretty stinky too. He doesn't even have a melee attack!! Redeemer loses as well. Never hits anything, and his beak is round.

Yes, you got it. But those 3 are even worse:

Harbinger: Large base, easy to hit and worst stats in the game (MAT 3!!)

Avatar: A Jack, that doesn't benefit from battlegroup buffs and that can't be allocated FOC to. And thats for 11 points!!!

And worst of all: The choir!!! I mean P+S: 6 !!! ***? I never killed anything with them.

[Lanz]

Covenant is weak. A medium base that counts as a small? C'mon.



I thought it was a large that counted as a small?

[MoDination]

And worst of all: The choir!!! I mean P+S: 6 !!! ***? I never killed anything with them.

You never tried hard enough. If choir can damage a titan (and they have) they can certainly kill! (and they can) I think you must be using them wrong if they aren't your first unit into melee. Can't kill if you don't go into melee!

[AmonadRodrigues]

You never tried hard enough. If choir can damage a titan (and they have) they can certainly kill! (and they can) I think you must be using them wrong if they aren't your first unit into melee. Can't kill if you don't go into melee!

Maybe you are right. Next game I will play them more offensively and give them some buff. Ignite would be really nice on them I think. And singing while burning enemies is very, very agreeable to menoth.

[MoDination]

You know, I'm actually going to try that :/ I think it will confuse my opponent so much that it will work. Might even take Rhupert to give them terror. With 3 choir I can afford to lose one if it doesn't work. They also have an 11" threat range...

[Lanz]

Choir with terror, ignite, and fire-on-hit from the covenant.

There's no way it could lose! Our new melee beatstick unit imo.

[MoDination]

I expect their UA will give them prey and anatomical precision

[Steampunk Jim]

Dervish
Devout
FoS
Cleanser
Deliverer
Paladins
Vilmon
Idrians
Castigator
Zealots
Monolith Bearer
Vengers
Rhoven
Allegiant
Seneschal
Gravus


Man, I'm shocked. Straight up shocked. I can't beleive how huge some peoples lists are. I think some people have yet to grasp the new MKII environment, and are still weeping in the corner over the things they "lost".


My list is tiny.

Allegiant

.... Yeah, that's pretty much it.

Vengers are kinda bad, but that's a problem with cavalry in general, not the vengers. I really like everything else. Deliverers got exactly what they needed with their fancy CRA. Zealots are so incredibly cheap, they're still worth it. The Seneschal has two weaponmaster attacks, and easy access to knockdown. Repenters are MEAN with access to the choir and ancillary attack.


I just don't get it boys. I just don't get it. Garth, why do you play this faction if your list of bad models is THAT huge?

[Tuckers]

Just wondering, but is there anything that is kinda useless? It sounds like the answer is no, but lemme give an example.
Over in Cryx, the only unit I think is completely useless is Drudges. Nothing they do that another unite doesn't do for less/or do it better. Is there is similar unit? I am not saying a useless unit, but one that "got dealt the bad hand"

[Steampunk Jim]

Just wondering, but is there anything that is kinda useless? It sounds like the answer is no, but lemme give an example.
Over in Cryx, the only unit I think is completely useless is Drudges. Nothing they do that another unite doesn't do for less/or do it better. Is there is similar unit? I am not saying a useless unit, but one that "got dealt the bad hand"

Not really, no. Everything has use. Some more than others. but in MKII, I can see a reason to own pretty much anything in protectorate.

[Bruan]

Allegiant!

I've used him about 5 or 6 times. He always gets destroyed by a boosted melee attack. He's probably good for engaging units, but his ability to engage jacks is extremely limited. I do have a hard time remembering to roll for tough though. :P

[Ganmeyde]

Nothing sucks. Some things are just more situational than others, and only shine in larger games and/or scenario play.

I mean, I've never seen anyone praise the glory of the Mk1 Marauder, but when the Scenario is "Knock a ****ing building down"... you can guess how awesome they are.

Seneschal is great, in higher-point Infantry lists, and good enough in very low point games to be worth taking.

Nothing more fun than spending three points in a 15-pt match to send Drago flying over Vlad with one Knight.

Vengers are good in VERY large games, when the impact and ride-by attacks can be used better. Plus, they make a great first wave to take control points or the like. 14/21 after taking damage with Defender's Ward on them.

Allegiant is a great harasser. Deliverers own massed infantry. Zealots are still 8 POW blast damage on the cheap. Cleansers/Repenters? eFeora loves them. Rhoven is nice when facing debuff-centric lists. Castigator has two-hand throws and 18 POW fists with Choir buffage, never mind his infantry-clearing power.

Idrians are expensive, and they -need- the UA to stand a chance, but they can lay some major hurt down on important enemy infantry/solo targets and give us another AD option.

And how in the HELL is the Fire of Salvation on a list? I mean, really? Obviously not the best choice against Khador/Skorne, but one Focus to boost all his attacks and give him Berserk lets him rip Warbeasts to shreds.

Vilmon... meh. He's okay for three. I'd rather run two pallies for 4 than him for 3, but he's not terrible, and he's great if you have low-CMD infantry. (I run Exemplars, so he's redundant there)

Gravus... okay, you've got me there. I can't think of why I'd pay 5 points for him. He's competing with a min unit of KE(E) in my lists, and that's not too favorable a comparison. On the other hand, his sculpt is awesome, and he's not BAD... just at a bad price point, given the other things likely to be in a list with him. Of course, he also lets you potentially drop the Covenant if you run -that- many Exemplars, so he could be considered a three pointer! ;)

Bastions are amazing, but they suffer from being slow as molasses, with no really good ways to boost their movement that aren't caster-derived. With Harby they're pretty damn good.

[Lanz]

Allegiant gets my vote as lowest, but even he isn't terrible, just restricted. It's kinda like a paladin, except focused on defense rather than armor, and quantity of attacks over quality. Allegiants really need a vilmon-esque solo to give them a good second stance, then they'd be good.

Allegiant isn't bad, it's just waiting on an update. In it's element, it would outclass a paladin(against models that lack ways to improve mat, but otherwise hit hard), and can kill 2 infantry a turn to the paladin's 1 per turn.

Since they cost the same, most will take the paladins, with vilmon, and the paladins become better than an allegiant, so most will take paladins over the allegiant, and most lists aren't large enough(or solo-hungry enough) to take paladins and allegiants.

Next to that, I'd say Vengers suck.

Actually, I put vengers ontop of the allegiant. They really suck. We easily got the worst of the faction's cavalry. Khador cav basically have Battle-Driven at all times(just instead its PS16 lances, pathfinder on the charge, and defensive line), and they have critical knock-down, and trade PS9 weaponmaster for 2 PS10 attacks. Their friggin horses have critical knock down. Cygnar cav get short-ranged magic attacks with a chain-lightning effect. Cryx cav get... cryx stuff(they're light cav, so they don't really directly compare anyhow). All we got special with our cav is Blessed Lances, which usually don't make a difference, unless you're charging vlad or something.

[Fellio]

I really value the Repenter. With Choir hymn and Vassal giving him another shot, he clears out infantry with ease. Not to mention it can be easy to catch a caster in the template to cause fire, which is very dangerous to them!

[Marius]

Dervish
Devout
FoS
Cleanser
Deliverer
Paladins
Vilmon
Idrians
Castigator
Zealots
Monolith Bearer
Vengers
Rhoven
Allegiant
Seneschal
Gravus

NO NYSS HUNTERS!!!



This is why PoM has so many auto-includes. Most of the other stuff is much too weak. The rest is ok or even very good.

Do you and I play the same game? Seriously, i see so many posts of yours about things being supposedly crap that i really wonder.

[Mutton]

I can't justify the Seneschal in a competitive game nowadays; he's a point too pricy and needs to ignore base size. Outside of that, nothing feels too bad; Castigator is meh, but it's more a victim of the point scale than anything else.

[Blackraine]

I disagree with the Seneschal... he still does exactly what I used him for in Mk. I, which is clear things out of Feora's way so she can light up some poor warcaster that thought he was gonna hide from her.

As for what "sucks"... well, the Allegiant solo is definitely on the low end of the power curve, and Rhoven (while cool and useful) isn't even on the same playing field as the Withershadow Combine or the Black 13th (though, to be fair, it's more that Gias and Cassian are useless, not the whole unit). Vengers are pretty far down the list for me, as well, but that's mostly a function of their lack of hitpoints... killing a 5 wound model with 17 armor is way too easy for the point investment, imo.

As far as Warcasters go... I think that the change to Epic Feora's feat, combined with the recent proliferation of Immunity:Fire, makes her a difficult caster to take to tournaments. She's great most of the time, but like Morvhanna with Circle, there's a good chance that you'll run into at least one army at the tournament that's largely or completely immune to basically everything that makes her cool.

It is, however, really hard to judge "what sucks" until we see the themed lists. The ones I've seen for Retribution go a long way toward making otherwise "meh" models worth taking.

[jandrese]

This is more a list of things that I don't like, but here goes:

Knights Errant -- Just don't have the killing power I'm looking for, nor particularly good survivability, nor speed. Their special ability shuts down my own stuff more often than enemy stuff to boot.
Deliverers -- Rocket Volley is alright, but the unit is way too expensive and normal splashes just aren't strong enough.
Allegiant -- Have not tested him with tough yet, but I'm fully expecting those P+S 9 fists to let me down yet again.
Vilmon -- Does everything a normal Paladin can do at 50% more points.
Seneshcal -- Still only particularly good when fighting noobs. Everybody else knows how to counter him and his relatively high 3 point cost.
Castigator -- Overshadowed by the Vanqisher at the same point value, especially since the Vanquisher makes much better use of Ancillary Attack. Should have been our 7 point jack.
Jury is still out on Cleansers. They look a lot more usable on paper, but I have not playtested enough to know if they're good yet.
Zealots -- Sad as it is, they really don't hit any harder than TFG, and are much much less survivable.
Bastions are teetering on the brink. ARM 16 is really just disappointing on them, even if they can keep their number of attacks up longer than most factions. They do have 40 wounds in a full unit, and aren't horribly expensive, so I can't call them bad, but they aren't nearly as tough as they might look on paper, and if I wanted a 5/8 unit of beatsticks, I would have taken Knights Exemplar.

That may sound like a lot, but it really leaves a lot of options open. Plus, just because something is not optimal doesn't mean you can't use it. I like pulling out gimpy models and giving them a spin again. Maybe they'll surprise me this time (usually not).

[BurlyBastard]

this discussion is useless. Seems like some people are strictly theory machining what models can and can't do.
Each unit/jack has a function, doesn't mean they are bad if you can't figure out how to use them.
Solos are now a luxury in your list. You have to have a plan to make them worth while.
We've still yet to see the full armory of menoth and i can see tier lists offering free solo "seneschal"

[Marius]

this post is useless. Seems like some people are strictly theorizing about what people are and arn't theorizing about.


Fixed :p. Sorry, couldn't resist. I'm only being semi serious there.

This thread does have some theory and it also has some real experience. It's not useless at all, putting your views on what you think is "useless" then having someone else point out a way to use them to good effect is a vital function of our community.

[Blackraine]

I doubt they'll give us a free 3 point solo... none of the Themed lists I've seen so far do anything of the sort. What it might do is increase the FA or give them advance deploy. It might even make all relic blades blessed or something. But a free solo is probably outside the types of effects they're looking at for themed lists.

[n00buaddib]

Sweet, raise FA of Allegiant. :P

Btw, Rhoven doesn't seem to be on many people's lists. I honestly forgot to put him on mine. Now...while not strictly bad, he's still not good enough for me to spend 4 points on him and his two dudes. I get a Jack for that! And that's something I totally agree on with jandrese (http://www.privateerpressforums.com/member.php?u=43627). Many things don't 'suck', you just never take 'em because something else does their role equally well or a tad better at maybe a lesser price. My list could practically mirror your own and I could probably add a few things, but that's again probably due to playstyle. I never used cav, I never used shooty units (I don't even use Widowmakers in my Khadoran army 80% of the time), I never used AD units (altough I'm starting to see the need for one and I'll get a min unit of Errants or Idrians just to deny my opponent objectives). I still belive eKreoss's a bit sub par compared to our other casters and how the army works though.

[Defenstrator]

Dervish
Devout
FoS
Cleanser
Deliverer
Paladins
Vilmon
Idrians
Castigator
Zealots
Monolith Bearer
Vengers
Rhoven
Allegiant
Seneschal
Gravus

NO NYSS HUNTERS!!!



This is why PoM has so many auto-includes. Most of the other stuff is much too weak. The rest is ok or even very good.

I'm going to assume this is some kind of sarcasm. There is nothing on this list could really be descibed as bad. The Allegiant is weakish. The cav a little expensive (like everyone's). That's about it. And these people complaining about the Repenters. My jaw actually opened in shock. With the Choir this 4 point jack is moving up and hosing me down at RAT 7 POW 14 with auto-fire. With a couple of focus that can kill a warcaster by itself.

[SteveinNYC]

Castigator is good for Menoth due to being one of our faster heavies. Also, the two 16(18) fists can scrap a jack easily.

The Castigator's not good at taking out jacks. We've got plenty of jacks the same speed as the Castigator, the Fire of Salvation is much faster with Righteous Vengeance and the Castigator's fists are weaker than most of our other jacks once you start buying extra attacks, which you'll need to do to scrap a jack.

I'm hoping eFeora's Escort will make it easier to get the Castigator's Combustion off, which will then turn around and feed eFeora's love of fire.

[Exemplar's_Gaze]

Honestly I don't think anything sucks, and everything we have can be useful in certain situations. There are models I hardly ever use though:

Guardian - Not worth his points, and I would always rather have a Reckoner
Rhoven & Bodyguards - Only ever use in high point games
Deliverers - Would always rather take another unit
Cleansers - See Deliverers
Gravus - Only take him in Epic Kreoss lists, which I don't field very often

Like I said, none of them are bad. They just don't see much board time.

[WarJack Prime]

I don't think any models truely suck, but for me there are only a few models I'll probably rarely, if ever, take in MKII.

1) Guardian: It's too slow plus he lost the Retribution rule which was really cool. I'd consider taking it with eFeora because she can increase its SPD to 6 but I'd rather have a heavy that can shoot or is cheap. The Guardian doesn't do much that a Crusader can't for less points, but it's not a bad model.

2) Rhoven & Co.: I'd rather have a light jack. They seem to situational rather than useful and they aren't that survivable anymore. This unit does seem bad (ie sucks).

3) Allegiant: We just have too many better solos to bother with this guy. As such he isn't bad just kinda pointless. I'd say he sucks. Why not take a Seneschal or Vilmon?

4) Devout: I've yet to take him since MKII. I'd rather have jacks that can dish out damage. I never liked paying for a jack that babysits a caster or model, and now that defensive strike is worthless I'd rather have a Repenter or Redeemer. Again, not a bad light but nothing special. I'm probably spoiled from MKI.

For those that don't like the Repenter, keep in mind it's a second wave jack. You have to hold it back until the melee starts, then open up the sprays. I take him all the time now in MKII.

[Lanz]

Rhoven isn't bad, really. His biggest problem, imo, is the lack of independance between him and his bodyguard. If they could, say, charge, while he could cast spells, they'd be perfect.

When you break it down, Gius and Cassian are fantastic models for 1 point each. They have destructive power equal to a Knight Exemplar, except with blessed and reach.

Rhoven himself, is like a 2 point buff/caster solo, and at that cost, is probably slightly better than most 2pt caster solos.

Overall, if you look at the three models as solos, they are all above the curve for their cost compared to similar models, the reason they are so cheap is because they are not solos and have to function as a group.

I don't have them, so this is theory based on their stats, but if I had the models, with Rhoven's decent command range, I'd have Gius and Cassian the full 10" away, fighting in the front-line with the other exemplar, with the Visgoth hanging back and buffing, using them -like- they're solos. They do have the advantage over the other 3-man teams that because they have pretty much 0 synergy with eachother, you're free to spread them out without worrying what kind of impact it will have on their performance.

[Ganmeyde]

Rhoven isn't bad, really. His biggest problem, imo, is the lack of independance between him and his bodyguard. If they could, say, charge, while he could cast spells, they'd be perfect.

When you break it down, Gius and Cassian are fantastic models for 1 point each. They have destructive power equal to a Knight Exemplar, except with blessed and reach.

Rhoven himself, is like a 2 point buff/caster solo, and at that cost, is probably slightly better than most 2pt caster solos.

Overall, if you look at the three models as solos, they are all above the curve for their cost compared to similar models, the reason they are so cheap is because they are not solos and have to function as a group.

I don't have them, so this is theory based on their stats, but if I had the models, with Rhoven's decent command range, I'd have Gius and Cassian the full 10" away, fighting in the front-line with the other exemplar, with the Visgoth hanging back and buffing, using them -like- they're solos. They do have the advantage over the other 3-man teams that because they have pretty much 0 synergy with eachother, you're free to spread them out without worrying what kind of impact it will have on their performance.

I think people are more disappointed about the lack of synergy than Rhoven and Co. being "bad". They're good, but boring and they don't work together at all.

[MoDination]

Repenter would see constant field time if TFG had immunity to fire so you could simply spray through them.

Gravus is extremely disappointing to me now, as the reason I purchased him was to buff my cav which he doesn't do anymore, so he is nothing more than a 5 point beatstick on a horse.

Guardian is an expensive arcnode with the same armor as a revenger while being to slow to actually do much of anything. If his flags acted as a std. bearer he might be worth his cost, or slightly interesting.

[Soylent]

I like Gravus. SPD8, reach, magic weapon, weapon master, chain weapon, up to 3 souls, cav rules, 15 wounds that takes atleast two hits to take out. Sure he's 5 points but he's a solid pick if you're taking KE or Errants. He fits well in some of my lists.

[Mod_Redphantasm]

Guardian is an expensive arcnode with the same armor as a revenger while being to slow to actually do much of anything. If his flags acted as a std. bearer he might be worth his cost, or slightly interesting.

The Guardian is there for when you don't want to chose between a heavy and an arc node. He's got the hitting power and boxes the Revenger lacks, and can be used as a focal point to draw enemies in. In this, he functions well, especially now that the spear got a more useful ability then set defense. He just plain will not miss with charge attacks

[Ganmeyde]

Yeah, Gravus is great with large numbers of Exemplar. Four weaponmaster attacks with chain weapon and reach means pain, and he keeps your errants from being knocked down so that the covenant can either be dropped, or used to light their crossbows on fire.

(I take back what I posted earlier, I forgot soul tokens could be used for more attacks. That totally lets him get around his points-inefficiency. He's one of the best Arc-node killers in the faction, as well as a great shieldwall breaker.)

[Burn]

The most useless one I can see so far is the allegiant. It seems his abilities are geared towards solo assassination, but his stats are too weak. If he hit harder, he might be worth it, and by harder, I mean another 5 POW. If not, some niffy ability to tie up units for as long as possible.

Rhoven seems very specialised against horde and stealth reliant cryx lists, other than that, like others has said, there is practically no synnergy between him and his bodyguards. It seems like his bodyguards want to get stuck in ASAP, while he wants to sit back and help people out, its hard to do both at the same time....

Everything else seems to have some sort of use. A guardian is a cross between a heavy and an arc node. Its not too specialised, but that's what you pay for a multi-use jack, and you can save on both.

I think everything sort of got eclipsed by vassal x2, covenant, choir, vanquisher, avatar (and maybe reckoner), because they're so good. Take the Castigator as an example. Its a pretty good jack on it own, but the moment you factor the extra attack from the vassal, you find that a reckoner or vanquisher is far better using that attack... Even tanks like bastions seem eclipsed by an avatar. It can run around, gaze, absorb everything, but thanks to enliven, it's utility as a tank becomes far better. Also, not only can it tank, it can pretty much do anything else well...

What's up with the bastion hate btw? When MK2 preview first came out, I remember that they were up there with the vassal as one of the new 'broken'... If you can spread your damage well enough, they can absorb way more than 40 points of damage, you can hit jacks hell hard, fight with infantry, bog them down and kill them, screen your all too precious vassals, covenants and choirs, take shots, etc. With protection of menoth, they become even better. Probably their only problem is speed, but even then, they're faster than TFG on the move, as TFG has to keep their shieldwall up, while bastions can run around...

[MoDination]

I like Gravus. SPD8, reach, magic weapon, weapon master, chain weapon, up to 3 souls, cav rules, 15 wounds that takes atleast two hits to take out. Sure he's 5 points but he's a solid pick if you're taking KE or Errants. He fits well in some of my lists.

See thats the problem, I don't currently or plan to nor have I ever run KE/KEE so gravus is only a spd 8 beatstick for me. When I got him he ran fine for his points since he helped my cav, now he is :( in my lists for his points/effectivenss. I'm not saying he is -bad- at all, I am just saying that he no longer does what I got him for and what he does for me now, he is expensive and a waste of money since I can fill the same role with cheaper models that I already owned before I got him.

[brimmstorm]

Keep in mind I only have about 15 games in with Menoth all being Mk2.

The only thing I don't really like are the Order of the Fist solos. Getting tough helps them out but still not enough imo.

While other things might not be as powerful as other options in the list I can still find uses for them. Like I still use Vilmon and Paladins in my Harbinger list. I use Cav with ToM. I use Rhoven with pKreoss ect.....I think Menoth made out like bandits when Mk2 hit and got a well rounded list when you get past the auto includes of Vassal, Choir, Covenents, Avatar.

Bastions I really like and use them in every list where I have Defenders Ward. Without it they are just to easy to kill imo. Ask Khador players about Demo Corps now, something with the Bastions just slighly better at absorbing the damage.

-brimmstorm

[Ganmeyde]

The most useless one I can see so far is the allegiant. It seems his abilities are geared towards solo assassination, but his stats are too weak. If he hit harder, he might be worth it, and by harder, I mean another 5 POW. If not, some niffy ability to tie up units for as long as possible.

Rhoven seems very specialised against horde and stealth reliant cryx lists, other than that, like others has said, there is practically no synnergy between him and his bodyguards. It seems like his bodyguards want to get stuck in ASAP, while he wants to sit back and help people out, its hard to do both at the same time....

Everything else seems to have some sort of use. A guardian is a cross between a heavy and an arc node. Its not too specialised, but that's what you pay for a multi-use jack, and you can save on both.

I think everything sort of got eclipsed by vassal x2, covenant, choir, vanquisher, avatar (and maybe reckoner), because they're so good. Take the Castigator as an example. Its a pretty good jack on it own, but the moment you factor the extra attack from the vassal, you find that a reckoner or vanquisher is far better using that attack... Even tanks like bastions seem eclipsed by an avatar. It can run around, gaze, absorb everything, but thanks to enliven, it's utility as a tank becomes far better. Also, not only can it tank, it can pretty much do anything else well...

What's up with the bastion hate btw? When MK2 preview first came out, I remember that they were up there with the vassal as one of the new 'broken'... If you can spread your damage well enough, they can absorb way more than 40 points of damage, you can hit jacks hell hard, fight with infantry, bog them down and kill them, screen your all too precious vassals, covenants and choirs, take shots, etc. With protection of menoth, they become even better. Probably their only problem is speed, but even then, they're faster than TFG on the move, as TFG has to keep their shieldwall up, while bastions can run around...

Bastions are just too slow, which seriously hurts their utility in objective-based games.

[jandrese]

After reading the Monk article in the latest NQ, I have to say that I'm bummed the Allegiant doesn't work that way.

Imagine a solo where at the start of every turn you choose one of three stances:

1. Defensive: Basically Shifting Winds stance but against ranged/magic only
2. Retribution: Gains +1 DEF and Riposte
3. Attack: +2 on attack/damage rolls

I'd probably field him in that form. It gives him a toolbox to counter his somewhat disappointing stats.

[MoDination]

If they kept shifting winds and just added the attack he'd be amazing. ignite + 2 atk/dmg and he'd be making a mess of everything with PS 13 weapon master...

[Demeritus]

My rarely take list is as follows

Zealots
Devout
Guardian
Castigator
Deliverers
Rhoven & Co
Repenter (still don't like this thing)
Idrians
Allegiant
Bastions

[Bruan]

I'm convinced his primary purpose is to tarpit units with MAT 5-7. Anything with higher MAT, and he'll be dropped like a bad habit.

[jandrese]

If they kept shifting winds and just added the attack he'd be amazing. ignite + 2 atk/dmg and he'd be making a mess of everything with PS 13 weapon master...

That's still 1 less than the P+S of a Paladin...

[Bruan]

I'm still going to use them, just to see if they're worth anything against units. I'll just send him 'shifting stanced' into units. Hopefully the increased defense and perfect balance'll keep him together.

[brotherscott]

What I have found so far in MK II is that my core build is still solid. Choir, TFG + UA, Zealots + UA, and build from there.

I think a lot of folks are forgetting the Tiered lists are on their way. I don't see anything that is a "bad" model. That being said, some models don't make sense with other models, therefore they don't build overall synergy within the army. Trying to force an Allegiant to work in an Exemplar army (just as an example) will leave a bad taste for using that model. Idrians supporting a pair of Allegiants might work better.

It really depends on the style of the player and how willing to experiment they are.

[Oilslick]

Most things have their place in certain lists. The Allegiant is definitely a problem, the Exemplar Errants still seem a bit underwhelming, but at least they are cheaper now, the castigator is hurt by the POW increase of the open fist or other jacks more than anything else, and Vilmon and the Seneschal may not be worth their points. The change on Vilmon to one melee attack being the main thing. I'd say that's my list.

[Mutton]

I have to laugh at everyone who thinks Errants are underwhelming; they're probably the best infantry in Menoth. They hit decently hard, can kill anything short of a shieldwall at range, and are quite probably the greatest tarpit in the game.

[Lanz]

I use Errants as my main infantry, I think they're awesome. They do everything. They aren't the best, and don't cause much damage to targets arm18+, but below that they shred things, their ranged attacks aren't spectacular, but they are still a ranged attack on what would normally be a melee model. They are also much tougher than normal exemplar, and are the largest single exemplar squad we have.

First match I did with my EE after buying them, they killed a Journeymen warcaster, Hunter, Charger, and Strangeways all in one spread charge... Then got raped by an Ironclad, despite reasonable rolls, hence the conclusion of not working too well against higher arm values. They are beyond awesome with a Seneschal in the group, and are probably the best unit in our faction for receiving piper buffs. Or any buffs for that matter. Whether offense or defense, a unit buff will usually see better results on Errants than any other unit.

[Ganmeyde]

I have to laugh at everyone who thinks Errants are underwhelming; they're probably the best infantry in Menoth. They hit decently hard, can kill anything short of a shieldwall at range, and are quite probably the greatest tarpit in the game.
And they kill the shieldwalls with covenant-lit flaming crossbows of doom. :p

Plus, 12/16 is a very nice defensive statline. Throw in DW/IR from either Kreoss and they have 12(14)/18 and their Tarpit-ness goes to over nine thousand.

[Lanz]

And they kill the shieldwalls with covenant-lit flaming crossbows of doom. :p

Plus, 12/16 is a very nice defensive statline. Throw in DW/IR from either Kreoss and they have 12(14)/18 and their Tarpit-ness goes to over nine thousand.

Errants + Defenders Ward + Dirge of Mists(piper) = def 15, arm 18, terror.

Scary errants. I shall call them... Scarrants.

Edit: + fire from covenant = Flaming Scarrants.

[Ganmeyde]

I just wish piper still had +2 move. I'd love to have bastions/cinerators actually in the front of my army to soak up hits.

[IRSMARTLIKEROCK]

True but:
TFG + Defenders Ward + Dirge of Mists = def 16, arm 15, terror. If popped mini-feat arm 19, if shield walled 19, combination of arm 23. If charged they are def 18 which is well over the bell curve for most models to hit even with boosted to hit rolls. Oh and they can run and pop mini-feat.

[Ganmeyde]

True but:
TFG + Defenders Ward + Dirge of Mists = def 16, arm 15, terror. If popped mini-feat arm 19, if shield walled 19, combination of arm 23. If charged they are def 18 which is well over the bell curve for most models to hit even with boosted to hit rolls. Oh and they can run and pop mini-feat.

And they have little offensive punch, no pathfinder, no advanced deployment, and a much lower threat range.

Hell, TFG will probably be right behind Errants on the frontlines in most lists, given AD. The Errants are a hard-hitting Tarpit, while the TFG need other things to kill stuff for them, barring one or two big CMAs.

[Lanz]

Errants also don't need to be a tightly-packed B2B brick to get their armor. Errants can be spread out, and only have 1 less armor, and don't have to worry about blasts flying over their heads, hitting them from behind, and denying the shield wall(and wiping out half the squad since they're so bunched up). Or flails, their shields are immune to chain weapons. Because they're awesome.

[der13manner]

Errrants vs TFG is entirely a user preference, they both do a decent job in slightly different ways, but at the end of the day they move your army forward and do some amount of damage on the way in. 2 man CMA's from TFG do a great job of killing infantry for me.

Gerrick

[Lanz]

Errrants vs TFG is entirely a user preference, they both do a decent job in slightly different ways, but at the end of the day they move your army forward and do some amount of damage on the way in. 2 man CMA's from TFG do a great job of killing infantry for me.

Gerrick

Errants look way cooler though, so that automatically makes them better.

[der13manner]

Errants look way cooler though, so that automatically makes them better.

Errants are pretty awesome, but I kinda like how the TFG paint up too :)

[Soylent]

I have to laugh at everyone who thinks Errants are underwhelming; they're probably the best infantry in Menoth. They hit decently hard, can kill anything short of a shieldwall at range, and are quite probably the greatest tarpit in the game.


Your comment started well enough till you said they're the best infantry in Menoth. Good? Yes. Best? No.

[Lanz]

Personally Kights Exemplar seem to be the best. They get a lot of use for a reletively low cost.

[Mutton]

Your comment started well enough till you said they're the best infantry in Menoth. Good? Yes. Best? No.

To be fair, I run a 'jack heavy Menoth, so they fit my purposes the best. They aren't the best with say, Silent Bob, but work with my playstyle perfectly. I think that they are good enough at what they do that they are arguable the best infantry; comes down to playstyle and tactics really.

[Mig]

I expect their UA will give them prey and anatomical precision

Would rather have Vengeance and a mini AtoA on hit.

[Lanz]

I think the Errants should get a UA that is carrying like a chalice, or some other great artifact, since traditionally, a Knight Errant is a questing knight out doing knightly deeds. When you read stories of heroic knights saving villages, rescueing princesses and slaying dragons, they are Knight Errants(since the normal knights are usually protecting a lord/kingdom, not wandering around). So it'd be an awesome UA to give the errant's a 'questing knight' theme, where the UA involves searching for(or maybe already having) the object of some great quest, and either the desire to accomplish that quest, or the powers provided from completing it, improve them.

Like maybe the UA is a errant who has found some holy grail-esque chalice of life, and it grants Tough to the unit because of it's healing powers, or something like that.

Or maybe the attachment is a single 'questing knight' and grants abilities throughout the battle for progressing in their quest(getting killed, killing others, etc)

[darisus]

I have used the allegaint in alot of games and for 2pts you can buy any of our other solos and they do better. he either can't get into play on your opponent or gets taken out before gettign anywhere near anything. plus his pow 9 even with weaponmaster attacks hit like wet noodles on almost everything but low arm models and half the time he misses and only ever hits once. i have never had him preform up to his MK1 standards where he was just plain awesome ( i had him wreck a whole unit of troll champs once ) in fact if he even lived up to half of his mk 1 self i would be happy. He is pretty much not making any serious list of mine and most of the time i take him cause i want him to be good and every game i play and every strat i take with him he ends up failing me. otherwise most of our models are good there are jsut some that are so much better for points costs that they just don't get taken alot.