Grand Exemplar Kreoss - eKreoss - Kreoss2

[Yertle4]

eKreoss is one of the few warcasters in the game that people seem to play despite his rules.

Amazing fluff, amazing feat, amazing Apotheosis art, - and that is all. Everything else about him his a big question mark. Simply put - At first he looks like he's hot ****, but he's really a cold turd put in the microwave.

What is this guy supposed to do? How do you build an army around him? Has anyone had subversive success with him? eKreoss players, enlighten us!

[Nighkhaun]

the safe strategy is to run him with plenty of exemplar.
I like to rush a unit of sacrosanct regular KE into my opponent's face. "You want to kill them? sure, knock some of your guys down" if he doesn't kill them, well, they end up in his face. Another plus, if they do loose a few they get all those rad +1str/arm buffs.

Definitely hoping the cinerators have awesome rules that eKreoss can play off. The GOOD news is, in warmachine he can force your opponent to come out and fight so to speak by shutting down arc nodes.

[Soulblighter]

Ironically, eKreoss seems to work best with non-Exemplar units. Inviolable Resolve gives Fearless which all Knights already have. And Sacrosanct for whatever reason doesnt work with Errants' self-sacrifice. Knights are also among the slowest melee units in the game. I find that eKreoss works best with a handful of warjacks, a couple units of TFG/daughters, and maybe only one or two units of Knights at most.

[SnakeEyes]

I think the thing about eKreoss that sticks out for me the most is that his feat is surprisingly devastating. More devastating than it reads on paper, at least to me. After every turn that I've popped his feat I'm amazed at how much of the enemy's army has evaporated from the board.

So beyond that... how do you build an army around him? Melee stuff for his feat, obviously. And I like Daughters with him because just one can wipe out 3 infantry models at a time on the feat turn. BTW, it's really fun to not even roll for attack OR damage against single wound models on the feat turn. Makes turn resolution more quick, too.
I've run my Daughters on each flank and they've pretty much been MVP's.

Here's a sample list that I've run at least a couple times (been a month or two since I ran eKreoss):
Grand Exemplar Kreoss -6
Vanquisher 8
Vanquisher 8
Avatar of Menoth 11
Choir of Menoth (6) 3
Daughters of the Flame (6) 5
Daughters of the Flame (6) 5
Exemplar Bastions (5) 8
Covenant of Menoth 2
Vassal of Menoth 2
Vassal of Menoth 2
Rhupert Carvolo, Piper of Ord 2
Army Points: 50

It's got that old Vanqs + Avatar core in there because, like I said, it's an older list, and before I wanted to break away from the boilerplate. But it definitely works. Don't really dig the Bastions, though. They failed to impress in any outing with eKreoss except as ranged attack damage sinks.

The Avatar has won me at least one game while under the feat. Not much can stand up to autohitting Avatar shots. Add the Inviolable Resolve + Vassal to it to make it a true bear to deal with.

In Mk. I, I ran TFG well with him. I imagine they'd be pretty rock solid now, too.

As far as weaknesses, probably a gunline still. Although, I haven't faced one yet with him in Mk. II. But the above list could deal with it. Just lead with the Vanqs.
Just create a balanced list, like above, and know what to lead with and what not to. I've had games where I held my Daughters back almost the entire game because they would have got ripped to shreds by ranged attacks or some other anti-infantry. Other times they've led the way and ripped up the army.

Hope this helps.

[DaCheeseMan]

I have yet to try it out, but I would think vilmon would be able to kill a caster on kreoss's feat turn.

[malfred]

If you have both Vilmon and EKreoss on the table, your opponent is going to do
everything in their power to kill Vilmon.

[SteveinNYC]

Seriously? Autohits and an extra attack on the feat turn make him my favorite caster. Line up a charge on the opponent's caster and watch it die. Armor piercing is a rock star ability, and his spell list is fine.

I like KEE (weaponmaster and they provide the hitty eKreoss loves along with the shooty a well-balanced army should have) or Daughters (acrobatics) with him. Gravus and Vilmon rock too (reach, weaponmaster). The Fire of Salvation (lots of movement with Righteous Vengeance) and the Avatar (reach and high P+S) are almost must-haves.

[Bikko]

If you can manage to get a full unit of daughters in base with their caster on his feat turn it's pretty much game over for anything other than a few Khador casters. 18 Autohitting anatomically precise attacks kinda wreck people.

[SnakeEyes]

I've kept trying that trick (Daughters + feat) but have never managed to get Daughters in melee with the opposing warcaster/warlock on the feat turn. It's doable, just really hard to do. 10" optimal threat range is not that far from the caster, considering that there's going to be an entire army around it.

But I'm gonna' keep on trying. And it's not that big of a deal anyways 'cause, like I said, Daughters obliterate infantry on the feat turn anyways.

[Seon]

sacrosant, invioable resolve, both on different units of knights
overboost for 5+ each turn. Run, run run. pop feat win :)
my favorite caster :D

have managed to get 3 daughters into combat with iron fangs. Killed all 7/8 of them on feat turn
^_^

[Yertle4]

sacrosant, invioable resolve, both on different units of knights, overboost for 5+ each turn. Run, run run. pop feat win :)
This sounds incredibly boring /eKreoss-like. Is it as boring as it sounds?

[SteveinNYC]

I've kept trying that trick (Daughters + feat) but have never managed to get Daughters in melee with the opposing warcaster/warlock on the feat turn. It's doable, just really hard to do. 10" optimal threat range is not that far from the caster, considering that there's going to be an entire army around it.

The caster needs models right next to him or the Daughters can jump over them with acrobatics. Still, I have yet to pull it off because the angles make it difficult to get Daughters #4, 5 and 6 in combat with the caster. I find the threat is the most useful thing because an army packed around the caster is easier to destroy piece by piece.

[jandrese]

One thing to keep in mind is that Sacrosanct only works on warrior models, it doesn't work on jacks or warcasters.

I also feel that Inviolable Resolve is strictly worse than Defender's Ward. Pretty much everything we have that benefits from just +2 ARM is already fearless. TFG with a Standard can get some mileage out of +ARM, but they're effectively fearless with the standard anyway.

...and that's pretty much his entire spell list.

My long time complaint about eKreoss is that he's a walking feat machine. He really don't have much else to offer to his army. His feat is good, but it's competing with what is unarguably one of the best feats in the game (pKreoss's feat). The only major advantage it has over his Prime feat is that it cannot be resisted. The fact that it does nothing for ranged attacks, nor does it allow units like Zealots to safely disengage from enemy models.

Pretty much the only advantage eKreoss has is that he's unarguably better in melee himself, but he's still a squishy Protectorate caster so that's hardly an advantage to be envied.

[Lanz]

eKreoss is awesome, he's just much more aggressive than pKreoss. You have to grind across the table full-tilt and get in your enemy's face with him. Armor Peirce and Smite make him a great caster-duelist. If you can charge in such a way that the smite won't push the target out of range, it's a free knock-down for you. Otherwise, the Armor Peirce definitely causes a world of hurt.

He's also +1 FC over pKreoss, and makes all your exemplar immune to cont. effects, which is great against Cryx's corruption, and other Menite lists. Imagine how much it would suck to play as Feora against an (almost) all exemplar eKreoss list?

[Yertle4]

Imagine how much it would suck to play as Feora against an (almost) all exemplar eKreoss list?
It totally would suck to play eKreoss.

:p

In a past time I have forsaken, I had a lot of trouble playing eKreoss aggressively, because he just isn't that tough and dies very easily. You need to camp 3-4 focus at all times. And the only reason one would use him is that he LOOKS like he's supposed to be a bad mofo leading from the front and crushing people with his giant shoulder pads (whereas pKreoss is straight up a backline magic caster with an amazing toolbox spell list).

Imperishable Conviction is an ok ability, but I think is highly overestimated in internal playtesting. This is because he usually goes from full health to dead and doesn't spend much time in between. I've only seen it really have an effect on simultaneous attacks.

I think one ability would make him fun and workable - Martial Discipline. Or Tactician Exemplar, whatever. But that's not going to happen, so I just have to scratch my head and acknowledge that I just find him dishearteningly plain. But I do take comfort in the fact that other people in this thread seem to enjoy him both because of and in spite of this.

[Soylent]

While people aren't a big fan of KE I find they work extremely well with him. eKreoss is all about the feat, everything else should be tailored to delivering the most devastating feat turn as possible. I favor SPD5 heavies as they can trample further and have an extra attack plus focus. Dervishes are also very impressive under the feat as they can waltz their way through with side step giving them more targets to hit. Vassals make sense as well for the extra auto hitting attack as well as enliven. Daughters are nice but I find that unless there are living multi wound models or beasts that the extra attack rarely gets used as it's difficult to get 3 models in melee range at once. List that I've been using with a few adjustments here and there has been...

eKreoss
-Vanquisher
-Dervish
-Dervish
Avatar
Choir(full)
KE
KE
Daughters
Vassal
Vassal
Covenant
Rhupert
eEriyss

[jandrese]

eKreoss is awesome, he's just much more aggressive than pKreoss. You have to grind across the table full-tilt and get in your enemy's face with him. Armor Peirce and Smite make him a great caster-duelist. If you can charge in such a way that the smite won't push the target out of range, it's a free knock-down for you. Otherwise, the Armor Peirce definitely causes a world of hurt.

Unless you're fighting a medium or large base caster, Armor Piercing really doesn't help that much, especially since it's only on the first attack.

This also assumes you can get a SPD 5 caster with 0 movement buff options within charge range of the enemy caster.

In practice, I've used him to finish off wounded jacks (in Mk I he could slam them away, but in Mk II that's just asking for the jack to shake it off, and charge him right back), but he's still fragile. If you go light on jacks he can camp enough focus to be reasonably tough, but then you don't have much damage output and every time I've tried this he has died to weaponmasters or high POW models that roll lucky for damage.

[Seanmcd]

Ironically, eKreoss seems to work best with non-Exemplar units. Inviolable Resolve gives Fearless which all Knights already have. And Sacrosanct for whatever reason doesnt work with Errants' self-sacrifice. Knights are also among the slowest melee units in the game. I find that eKreoss works best with a handful of warjacks, a couple units of TFG/daughters, and maybe only one or two units of Knights at most.

If I may ask why doesn't sacrosanct work with errants? The spell read when an enemy model destroys a sacrosanct model the enemy model is knockdown. The self sacrifice says another model in the unit may be destroyed instead.

[Lord Xalys]

If I may ask why doesn't sacrosanct work with errants? The spell read when an enemy model destroys a sacrosanct model the enemy model is knockdown. The self sacrifice says another model in the unit may be destroyed instead.

If I'm not mistaken, the caveat lies in the fact that Self Sacrifice kills the KE, not the enemy attack. Thus Sacrosanct would not come into effect. Am I right?

P.S. While I won't compare the two due to obvious reasons, having used the Angelius extensively, I can assure you that an AP P+S14 + 3d6 damage roll can be brutal on a medium/large based model. I'd consider letting Kreoss2 take point on an enemy 'jack, then having an escorting Menite 'jack finish the job. Vice versa, you could have Kreoss2 finish what the 'jack started if it went in first. Kreoss2 would be rolling dice +4 on a generic Khador 'jacks, which can cause an ungodly amount of damage for a single attack.

LX

[Seanmcd]

Giant sad face errants plus self sacrifice was so fun.

[Soylent]

Unless you're fighting a medium or large base caster, Armor Piercing really doesn't help that much, especially since it's only on the first attack.


Don't discount armor piercing against small base models, that +2 POW puts him in the big hitter range for that hit. That said, unless it's overkill I'm forcing myself to keep him just behind the front lines or a little further back. You want to play the army very aggressive but I find that if you play him as fast as your army then the game will be very short.

[groovychainsaw]

I like putting Sacrosact on something that dies easily eg Zealots, and running them at a gunline with a reclaimer in behind. Free focus + knocked down shooters? Great. I ran 10 zealots as sacrifical screen too, to make some MoW knock themselves down by fighting, then shot them to death. I mean ,they can leave them there, but then P14 bombs will arrive. He's maybe lacking in other spells, but that + the feat is a nice 1-2. I think he's definitely underrated.

[Invader Larb]

1) Castigate is fun and shuts down a variety of assassination schemes.

2) The feat is amazing with Tramples. Yes, you auto-hit on every singe one plus get a free attack at the end before buying attacks. This alone ends games. "OMG, it is the Avatar and it has auto-hitting shoes!"

3) Feat with Daughters of the Flame equals attacks that auto-hit and auto-kill. That is good times!

[Oilslick]

Vengers are viable (for cav) with eKreoss as he allows the impact attacks to auto hit. Also the dervish is kind of cool with him.

[Soylent]

The only problem with the cav is timing. You have to do your best to keep them back so they hit the same time the bulk of your army does on the feat turn.

[Blackraine]

Keep in mind, they also specifically fixed the Vengers to work with Kreoss' feat. Note that now their weapons say they can't be used to make "initial" attacks on a turn you charge, rather than before when you couldn't attack with them at all on the charge turn. This is a huge change, imo, as Vengers always seemed like they would've been an auto include in his lists if not for that little snag of not getting the additional attack.

[SteveinNYC]

Vengers are viable (for cav) with eKreoss as he allows the impact attacks to auto hit.

The problem I have with the impact attacks isn't hitting with them but how little damage they cause. Pow 10 is meh.

[jandrese]

And it only takes one bad damage roll to stop your charge dead in its tracks. Impact attacks are just plain risky, although slightly less so under either Kreoss's feat.

I don't want to be too much of a downer here on how awesome eKreoss's feat is, but pKreoss's feat also provides auto-hits in melee (albeit only against targets that are not immune to knockdown and don't have groundwork).

[Yertle4]

And it only takes one bad damage roll to stop your charge dead in its tracks. Impact attacks are just plain risky, although slightly less so under either Kreoss's feat.

I don't want to be too much of a downer here on how awesome eKreoss's feat is, but pKreoss's feat also provides auto-hits in melee (albeit only against targets that are not immune to knockdown and don't have groundwork).
It's only a downer when you're not right :p

Plus pKreoss has Defender's Ward, which is really sweet on Vengers. Inviolable Resolve is super sweet on Kromac, sweet on Vyros, and merely ok on eKreoss.

It's heaps of little things with him - if only Inviolable Resolve made it so you can't be moved he'd have a good jack spell, if only sacrosanct affected warjacks and beasts, if only his model was as cool as his art....

[SnakeEyes]

if only Inviolable Resolve made it so you can't be moved he'd have a good jack spell
That would suck and I'm glad they changed it. Enliven.

[gold_penguin]

... if only his model was as cool as his art....
I'm worried he's going to look even more puny and lame compared to the new resculpt of the High Exemplar.

[SteveinNYC]

I don't want to be too much of a downer here on how awesome eKreoss's feat is, but pKreoss's feat also provides auto-hits in melee (albeit only against targets that are not immune to knockdown and don't have groundwork).

Isn't that a big caveat though? Maybe not, when you add Purification and Rhoven into the mix. Would either turn off the Covenant's no-knockdown?

I think pKreoss' feat is more generally useful because it helps your shooting and your melee attacks (unless you're targeting something immune to knockdown). If you're going melee all the way though, pKreoss doesn't have an equivalent to the extra attack from eKreoss' feat.

[bamburn]

Is anyone excited about a Templar with ekreoss?

I am kind of thinking that ARM 23 with Inviable Resolve is pretty sweet. Plus a loaded Templar can charge and use its beat back to extend its threat range and still have the extra autohitting attack.

[Soylent]

Isn't that a big caveat though? Maybe not, when you add Purification and Rhoven into the mix. Would either turn off the Covenant's no-knockdown?

I think pKreoss' feat is more generally useful because it helps your shooting and your melee attacks (unless you're targeting something immune to knockdown). If you're going melee all the way though, pKreoss doesn't have an equivalent to the extra attack from eKreoss' feat.


There is one big difference. Immune to knockdown effects. There is enough of it that you'll see it a few times in a tournement. Auto hit is still auto hit no matter if they're standing or not, but thats just half of his feat. The additional attack(auto hitting as well) is the big thing. Your damage output goes way up with it.

[SteveinNYC]

Is anyone excited about a Templar with ekreoss?

Yes :D I'm also excited about running a Templar with Iron Aggression.


There is one big difference. Immune to knockdown effects. There is enough of it that you'll see it a few times in a tournement. Auto hit is still auto hit no matter if they're standing or not, but thats just half of his feat. The additional attack(auto hitting as well) is the big thing. Your damage output goes way up with it.

I think we're agreed. Personal preference here: I like eKreoss more than pKreoss because I like melee more than shooting. At the same time, I also like KEE, and maybe their blessed crossbows close some of the distance on the extra attack when going for an assassination on the feat turn.

[LordGrimlok]

Not to get too off topic, but how does his feat match up with Saeryn now? I can't recall how it was addressed in MK1. Does his feat trump her's since he's the attacker? Or does the whole "can't be targetted" raise a problem?

[Soylent]

Order of operations.
Declare a valid attack.
Make attack.
ect
ect

You can't declare a melee attack against a model that can't be targeted by a melee attack so you don't get the chance to auto hit. Like a lot of feats out there you just have to weather the storm during that turn. Having a couple shooting options in your list doesn't hurt either.

[Cannotcope]

Isn't that a big caveat though? Maybe not, when you add Purification and Rhoven into the mix. Would either turn off the Covenant's no-knockdown?

No.

Not an upkeep, animi, nor continuous effect.

[dicegod]

eKreoss has a fantastic feat. But thats about it.

He is also immune to some 'casters kill shots like pDenny, which can be cool.
I think if his buffs were thought out a little more he could have been a great 'caster. He really needed to keep Defenders Ward, Sacrosanct could have been Death March/Vengeance, and those spells would actually be worth casting.
Either that or he picked up Crusaders Call to help his slow as molasses KE or Road to War.

[Seon]

Problem i find is, sacrosanct only works on enemy warrior models and not anything. reducing its effect alot. Castigate useless against khador, and most cygnar, and few cryx, and we have no cryx players here kinda. chasten is so-so but then you have to spend points on an arc node, when gravus costs 1pt less and has dispel, or if your taking FoS he also has dispel. kreoss might have a sizeable amount of ARM but hes still defense 14.. invioable resolve is pretty good, and still lolwut fearless?, and good ole cleansing fire. only ever casted it once on any caster. that with SPD 5 and no buffs for it. hes pretty slow, like the rest of his army.

all in the Feet :) my friend says he has tiny legs :(
still my favorite caster though :D

[SnakeEyes]

To see eKreoss done right see Xerxis.

Although eKreoss will do everyone is right about his unimpressive spell list. He's a feat + Involiable Resolve upkeep. *yawn* Still, a warcaster rarely contributes definitively to the battle beyond a feat and one spell. Most of our other casters are in the same boat.

[Soylent]

On paper eKreoss does seem boring to play but on the table it becomes a lot more entertaining. While he does revolve around his feat, that feat makes your opponent look on in wonder at the sheer ammount of damage you can do. For me, the beatstick approach is very satisfying.

His spell list. Yes it's a little lackluster but I find that there are uses for them.

Castigate: Sure you'll only use it 1 out of 5 games but the games you do use it can be devistating. Denying Denny or Haley their arc node puts a wrench in their plans and can sometimes leave them exposed.

Chasten: A very good spell, cheap and effective. Most of the times I've used it, it's been on my own models. Even if I have to use it on my opponents, most of the time it's going to be on the feat turn and I typically have eKreoss just behind my line which puts me close enough to cast(13" threat range, 16" if he charges which the Covenant can allow me to do if I'm lacking a charge target).

Clensing Fire: I use this a lot. With the same threat ranges in mind, this has been my go to spell when creating a pocket to give the Avatar a spot to end it's trample. I do tend to take a Vanquisher as well but sometimes that option has been taken away or fails.

Inviolable Resolve: No need to talk about the +2 ARM but the fearless has come into play quite a bit. I've been taking a unit of Daughters in my list and if I'm facing any terror causing models I'll toss it on them for the first two turns. Sure the ARM doesn't do too much for them outside of light blast damage but the fearless keeps them on the table as the rest of my army catches up to them. After that it typically goes on the Avatar or eKreoss.

Sacrosant: Sure it only affects non-warcaster/warlock warrior models but there is usually a situation for it. Typically it's on the Daughters. The best use I find is against heavy infantry.


While his spell list isn't anything to write home about it does make it easy to camp focus or allocate to jacks which allows him to bring a few more than a non-jack caster would normally take. This makes for a well rounded list that can be difficult to face.

[cryptomancer]

I actually ran an eKreoss list against eHaley, and was killed on the ONLY TURN I didn't remember to Castigate.

His spell list is unimpressive but solid. He's got plenty of Focus and a nice big CTRL area. His Feat is wonderful. He's also good in combat, which many people forget (dice-plus-4 on a Khador heavy should never be underestimated). Nothing too exciting, but he lays down the hurt.

Oh, and he's weaksauce against Saeryn.

-Crypto

[Soylent]

Oh, and he's weaksauce against Saeryn.

-Crypto


Covenant out front.

[cryptomancer]

I was thinking more of a Feat vs. Feat thing Soy, but you make a good point. I just worry about the poor thing being Strider/Raptor shot to death.

-Crypto

[SarimRune]

Like many, Kreoss was my first caster and will always hold a special place in my heart.

I was delighted during the field test when they gave pKreoss Ignite, because it meant that there was actually some amount of consideration to be had with him. He could make things offensive and defensive and decisions had to be made with what to do with his focus. Once Ignite was removed (and he had already lost Retribution) then he turned into the most boring caster around. Upkeep two spells, march towards enemy, win game.

The best casters are ones where all their spells have a definite use in the game but are not so good that they must be cast. I'll give Denaghra as an example: I love her spell list. There is nothing I consider bad about any spell she has. Each one is an excellent utility having great potential for each and every game she is used. When you have a caster like this, then you have a LOT of hard decisions to make and ultimate it is those decisions that can win you the game. When you have a simple (and thus boring) spell list, then you haven't got any real decisions to make. The only decision to make with Kreoss is who gets Defender's Ward and whether or not to use focus for an Offensive spell or not.

EKreoss has always bugged me. I think he's terrible. I love the model but am incredibly disappointed with the rules. His spells are boring and I cannot stand from any point of view that he would ditch PoM (now Defender's Ward) for Inviolable Resolve. While he has the Armour Piercing, I've never found that you can put a PoM caster out there to us it properly because they are so squishy.

I'm talking partially out of my disgruntlement from how he's been treated (losing Retribution and then his Epic form) but I would place his Epic form at the bottom of the list of all casters. But I realize I'm being more emotional than logical about that. (Oh but pKreoss is still an excellent caster, just very boring to play with).

[Soylent]

It sounds to me like you haven't played him. I'd recommend giving him a few games, I think you'll find him better than you expect.

[Yertle4]

It sounds to me like you haven't played him. I'd recommend giving him a few games, I think you'll find him better than you expect.
On the other hand, I played him for nearly two years (arguably he's become even weaker and boring in Mk II), and he is worse than I expected. And a helluva lot more boring.

I say this, and those 2 pages in Apotheosis were they ENTIRE reason I sold all my Cygnar and started playing Protectorate.
Then I just turned the page and found true Protectorate salvation.