Need some advice

[theflyingdutchman59]

:Cont-Fire: ok heres the deal. my buddies Gf is getting into PoM. and its my turn to play her as Ret. now i dont wanna just out right win, and completely destroy her, but i dont wanna give her a easy win. i need a 20 point list of basic ret stuff so to show her what i(we) can do and not to **** with the angry elves, but still not be an *** about it.

so to sum up: i need
1) 20 pointish list
2) has some interesting stuff
3) is not OP!

[Dregon]

:Cont-Fire: ok heres the deal. my buddies Gf is getting into PoM. and its my turn to play her as Ret. now i dont wanna just out right win, and completely destroy her, but i dont wanna give her a easy win. i need a 20 point list of basic ret stuff so to show her what i(we) can do and not to **** with the angry elves, but still not be an *** about it.

so to sum up: i need
1) 20 pointish list
2) has some interesting stuff
3) is not OP!

sounds fun, what do you have to work with, caster and army wise?

[theflyingdutchman59]

hmmm about every thing minus house gaurd units and destors( +thane), manticore and narn gareth and rayvn.
AND yes i have A+H, and the snake.

[scout's honor]

OP is what you do with it. Find the models you think will be interesting for her to play against and don't go for the throat, it won't matter then if you're list is potentially OP or not.

That said, I'll suggest Vyros for your caster: not OP and good balance between jack and infantry support. He's also an excellent starting caster for a new Retribution player (which in turn makes him good for beginning players that go up against): nothing too tricksy about his abilities, but not completely obvious either. Plus: he gets brownie points for having a hawk.

Take full Invictors + UA as your main unit; they can do a bit of everything and have the Ret aesthetic down pat.

Any heavy Myrmidon will do: the Manticore and the Hydra for their ranged ability, a Phoenix for Combustion on the feat turn.

One or two solos - they're just about all good and interesting - on top of that and you should be near your 20ish points.

Edit: might be fun to go for a themed list, actually. You wouldn't be getting much of the advantages, but it would add another point of interest. Maybe Stormfall Archers instead of solos for a Legions of the Dawn list or two heavies and no solos for a Dawn's Talon list?

[theflyingdutchman59]

would bring pEiryss be to much?
or go over the top with the fane knight?

[Dregon]

would bring pEiryss be to much?
or go over the top with the fane knight?

Scout beat me too it. Vyros was my suggestion too, more specificly something like this

Vyros
Discordia
Dawnguard sents(full) + UA
giffon(jack marshalled)
Arcanist

or for a better mix and flexability

Vyros
discordia
Dawnguard sents(full) + UA
Stormfall archers

or a variation there of

pEiryss would probably a bit overboard for a new player, hence why i left her out =P

[theflyingdutchman59]

i was thinking
Vyros
phinx
sents+ ua
fane knight
(i think i did math right)

[Dregon]

yeah thats right on the money and while i like the list allot, im a sucker for the fane knight, you may want to try a couple games with her as she will get an idea of how ret does melee wise, but she wont see the flexibility of our ranged forces either.

[theflyingdutchman59]

ak more of a mixed bag
vyros
vics +ua
hyrda
but i still need to mash her armor.

a 6 point heavy, what the hell is that menoth??

[FranzGrenstein]

How many games has she played?

If its a fairly low number, throw the game.

Vyros and Kae are good caster to play in my opinion.

[theflyingdutchman59]

2-4 she played a borka list, won cuase she flame throwerd her self to kill alot of guys ( she learned quick) 2 vs kador, and i think 1 skorn.

throw the game ........maybe, hard to get alot in at 20 points

[Jestor]

I would advise against throwing the game. One day, if she keeps playing, she will look back on your army/tactics and think you were being condescending. It won't work out well for you.

One thing I do against new players is I play hard against them. I give them little tid bits of advice during the game (You may not want to move there, you see this guy here? He will charge him and you will lose that guy with nothing gained). After a game or two they appreciate the help and improve to give a good match.

Throwing games just makes bad players think they are good so they never improve. I'm not saying take a force trimmed and tailored to win nationals but don't lose on purpose either. Treat it like any other game you would play. I wouldn't purposefully leave out a model like Eiryss as was suggested above either. She will see that model on the opposite side of the field a ton, better to get used to it and learn early!

[FranzGrenstein]

The way I think about it, the chief goal you have is to make sure she has a good time. Your job is to play a game that she will have fun with and after a good fight will utimately lose, that is what I mean when I say throw the game. After 5-10 games (when shes hooked) you can lower the boom.

I think I would go with this list

Kae
Manticore
Chimera
Griff
min unit of invictors
ghost sniper
and an arcanist.

It's a simple build on the battle box. I don't think it's too strong, but I am a horrible judge of those things.

[ForceFields!!!]

I wouldn't throw the game, but i would take it easy on her. Let her get the charge off first. Be kind during the game, but set up a trap an take out on of her powerhouse pieces in a single turn (say the avatar or a large unit). Show her what we do, but don't crush her and think she can't win against Ret.

[Serberk]

to be honest i found that in this game the first few fights of a new player are or at least appear to him as a mercyless onesided slaughter and only after a few losses you start getting a real grasp of what the game is about, it worked fine for me and my group (most of people started about last year, thanks gw for suiciding yourself and letting people swap to pp =).)

[theflyingdutchman59]

talking it over with the guys at LGS, and we cme up with a idea, just basic units, no uas, they are just to good, so it prob going to be a MHSF or VIC based army, with prob a ghost sniper or two in it.looks like so far i will playing the battle box plus a light(dervish) and flame guard cleasers+UA (NO CHOIR HAHA)

[bakaryu]

While throwing the game is definitely not a good idea, it is still possible to leave yourself slightly overextended without making it obvious that you are giving her a chance to steal the match.

Also going with no UAs quite heavily hamstrings Retribution as many of our units lose the abilities that makes them what they are on the field (loss of vengeance, phantom seeker and ad, combined arms, etc).

Instead I would suggest going for something like the list you had in mind:

Vyros
> Phoenix
Max Sentinels
> Officer and Standard
Fane Knight

This gives you a decent model count for a 20 point list, gives her something tasty to feel good about if she destroys it (FK and Phoenix) but also gives you enough dependable punch that she has to think about the game or be punished.

[theflyingdutchman59]

yea that is my armored fist, highlander list. i thought it would be a good one. with vengence, righteos furry and hallowed avenger, its alot of high power anger right in your face

[beardy]

Use the list from the No Quarter Mag (I want to say issue 34, but not certain), I believe its Garreth. Decisions all made for you, shows off the strengths and weaknesses and provides some detachment from the force (as its someone elses cookie).

[Osito]

Honestly, if you really want her to get hooked, kill some of her army, but let her caster get to your caster and get off the first few attacks. If she kills you great, if she doesn't it will be one of those "wow you were really close" even though I was ahead on material, moments. Show her that killing things is great, but the caster is the most important, and needs to be guarded and played that way. Whether you win or lose is irrelevant, as long as she is learning and having some fun.

Don't play Rahn, don't play Ravyn, and I wouldn't play Garryth if she is playing shooting. (Early games against stealth are a turn off.)
I would run something like
+6 Vyros
9 Hydra
4 Griffon
5 Gorgon
7 Halberdiers full
1 Arcanist

[theflyingdutchman59]

I dont have halbs, but ur list give sme an idea for an alt list

Vyros
Phoenix
Max Sentinels +UA
Fane Knight

or

Vyros
Hydra
Invictors+ UA
Griffon
Arcanist

[Osito]

Second list looks pretty solid.
I think Sentinels with the vengeance move and the phoenix with the free phoenix field might be overwhelming. They are powerful yes, but also she sees you doing a bunch of stuff during your Maintenance phase she might get overwhelmed early in her gaming experience. The challenge is to ease her into it without just letting her win. Play hard, but don't play your best models.

[theflyingdutchman59]

after re-reading this thread, i realised a few things:
1) i havent played my hydra, vyros and fane knight in a long time( dam you ozzy)
2) i need narn
3) teachings dam fun.

any ideas to pass on to her?

also whould a battle mage list be a bad match up for menoth? i thought i read that some were before?

[Dregon]

[/QUOTE]also whould a battle mage list be a bad match up for menoth? i thought i read that some were before?[/QUOTE]

Judging from the list you said she would be playing i dont think so. Hell that might be a funn match and it will show her how good ret is at placement manipulation XD

[FranzGrenstein]

also whould a battle mage list be a bad match up for menoth? i thought i read that some were before?

Yes, it would be a bad match up, the choir has the "no spells on my jacks" song, and they have the book. A few of their caster have the equvalent of sacred ward.

PoM is the reason why A&H are on permanent retainer with all shooting centric casters for me.

[Dregon]

Yes, it would be a bad match up, the choir has the "no spells on my jacks" song, and they have the book. A few of their caster have the equvalent of sacred ward.

PoM is the reason why A&H are on permanent retainer with all shooting centric casters for me.

In this case he specificly said she would not be running Chior and i dont think shes running book either. At the very least a battle mage list will be decent match up and not completely smash your face in against her. In other words it might be the list he wants to play to give her a resonable shot at wining too...

In the case of your average menoth player yeah a battlemage list would be very bad match up, but hes facing a fairly new player too.

[theflyingdutchman59]

yea a battle mage list would be fun. and prob a win for her, cuase one i pop feat id sand there and take a beating.

Rahn
Discordia
Chimera
battle mages
2X magisters
arcanist.
(look up the rage buy thread)
or

Rahn
Discordia
Chimera
battle mages
magister
artificer ( for a stronger 1-2 punch and mango blast)

[Dregon]

I kinda like the second one. a little more brute force and to the pointish

[theflyingdutchman59]

ok guys its up to 22 points confirmed. so list?i wanna try my new solo the Dawnguard Scyir. yea i know its a weird point value.

[bakaryu]

The Scyir is a bit of a weird animal, he has great abilities but none of our current line of jacks appreciate his support due to most of them wanting plenty of focus to do their thing. I suspect that he will see more table time when we gain access to our Vyre jacks, until then I feel that he simply faces too much competition as a good 2pt solo in a faction loaded with excellent 1-2pt solo choices (Arcanists, Soulless Escorts, Magisters and Mage Hunter Assassins). Sadly it is the same fate suffered by the Ghost Sniper and to a lesser degree the Heavy Rifle Team.

However if you want a list with him in it:

Ossyan (-6)
> Phoenix (10)
Max Invictors (10)
> Officer and Standard (2)
Dawnguard Scyir (2)
> Griffon (4)

Gives you a decent 22pt list that can combine speed and hitting power while letting the Scyir show off his full range of abilities. In ideal world I would have Hypnos and an Arcanist instead of the Phoenix but we can only work with the tools currently available to us :)

[Osito]

Rahn is a pretty strong caster. If you really must play him, then take no arc nodes against the girl you are teaching. Or maybe take one Chimera so she can disable the arc node. A good learning experience for her. Sentinels, invcitors and MHSF should all be off limits. If you have to take one take the Invictors with no UA. Battle mages and archers and any houseguard are all probably ok. If you take the Riflemen don't take the UA.