Light Warbeasts -- Design Intents?

[Endgame]

I played a small game last night with just some light warbeasts and Madrak (Axer, Impaler, Slag & Winter) against Stryker (Iron Clad, 2x Charger, Lancer) -- Trolls got creamed if its of interest. Essentially a T&C vs MM game which doesn't really give the whole story, but its all I had time for. It got me to thinking about the designer's intent with the Troll Light beasts. I'm going to take some guesses at the intent and if I can narrow down the intent so I can provide better feedback.

Axer & Bouncer: Intents are obvious and need little comment. Bouncer is a body guard with high arm, and the Axer kills infantry or gets buffs to kill Jacks. Got it.

Impaler: Intent is two fold -- 1) Stand off ranged attacker (with an excellent Critical) and 2) Provide Far Strike to any list.

Pyre Troll: Another 2 fold intent: 1) Anti infantry roll (with fire on the AoE) and 2) Provide a melee buff to anything in the list. This guy isn't really meant to be on the front lines given his durability and low number of damage boxes (he is substantially less durable than a charger, and chargers go down fast.

Slag Troll: I suspect the intent is to be an Anti Jack model. My first thought was that he was another stand off model with melee buff support (like the pyre) that hits a little harder in Melee and is a little more durable. After play testing, I'm thinking maybe he isn't supposed to be that far off of the front lines? Rat 4 meant I missed an Iron Clad on my first shot, which in turn meant i didn't do enough damage not to get pasted by the IC on the following turn.

Winter Troll: Intent is to be a close support model that doesn't want to mix it up in combat. Just as frail as the Pyre troll, but Rime, Freezer, and Crit Freeze on the breath attack makes you want to be up in the front without actually being engaged by the enemy.

Overall, the elemental trolls are all very short ranged, which makes sense given the ability to buff RNG with the impaler. The Low RAT on the elemental trolls does hurt their ability to effectively use their close ranged attacks though (execpt for the Pyre troll, who doesn't care if he misses).

Initial impressions (all of one game) lead me to believe that the Pyre and Slag trolls are more or less balanced to have Far Strike on them. The pyre because he likes the extra range to say away from combat, and the Slag because RNG 12 means he can aim and not miss nearly as often.

For what its worth, I found myself comparing the Troll lights to the Charger during the game and I felt something was off. The Winter and Slag trolls are 2 points more than the chargers, and they are just much less effective in the style of game that I played. I found myself wishing the Slag Troll had Powerful Shot like the Charger (so I could actually hit twice and boost damage twice), and wishing the winter troll had powerful attack like the Grundback Blaster. I'm going to try and get some games in this weekend with Infantry, so we'll see if my opinion changes.

[Goldstep]

Just curious... In the game, were you acting or reacting? (As in the common thought is that MKI trolls react... has that changed?)

You also say you were creamed. Were you able to get near Stryker but overextended or did his jacks do all the work before you could make a threat?

[Endgame]

Just curious... In the game, were you acting or reacting? (As in the common thought is that MKI trolls react... has that changed?)

I was reacting the whole game. The chargers didn't seem to mind Sure Foot due to powerful shot and picked me apart at range, especially the sniped charger. I was eating 3 double boosted pow 12s / turn and I horribly lost the shooting war. To be fair, Madrak isn't exactly the best caster for this either, but we were more or less using the battle boxes with some modifications.

I was trying to use the winter & impaler with the slag to tag team jacks -- the idea was to freeze / knock down the jack, then hit it with two 4 dice damage rolls with the Slag. The crits didn't work out for me at all, and I burned lots of fury trying them so many times :(




You also say you were creamed. Were you able to get near Stryker but overextended or did his jacks do all the work before you could make a threat?

Without doing a a full battle report, I never even got close to Stryker. His feat neutered me for a turn and I ended up losing all my beasts by turn 4. I killed a Charger and a Lancer, and did some damage to the IC and that was it.

[Cannibalbob]

I was trying to use the winter & impaler with the slag to tag team jacks -- the idea was to freeze / knock down the jack, then hit it with two 4 dice damage rolls with the Slag. The crits didn't work out for me at all, and I burned lots of fury trying them so many times :(



The crit is amazingly situational and not really worth worrying about on the wintertroll. His rat is too low for there to be a good possibility to really get it off. Hell, even the Impaler will crit less than 50% of the time.

[HellecticMojo]

never rely on a crit, never.

never think that troll can win a shooting war.

I don't think those have changed and I think that's why you lost.

"This is what it mean to kill things."

[Endgame]

The crit is amazingly situational and not really worth worrying about on the wintertroll. His rat is too low for there to be a good possibility to really get it off. Hell, even the Impaler will crit less than 50% of the time.

Normally with the twin Impalers in battlebox games, I pull 1 crit / turn. I know thats above average, but normally it works out pretty well for me. I had the idea that it was going to be awesome and I would do serious damage with the Slag when I could hit without a problem. Now that I think about it, Pow 12 weapon master against a jack is essentially what the Slag does, and there are units that hit harder than that.

I was thinking of the Slag and Winter as ranged models and now I'm thinking that isn't the intent at all. Because I was playing them "wrong" it lead to me getting stomped.

*Edit* The funny thing is, I would never have tried this in MKI, not much really changed in MKII, and yet I thought it would rock. I failed at logic I think...

[Sevwall]

Calandra says you can count of Crits. More so on feat turn. What a nasty lady.


Anyway, the winter is designed to run up to beasts/jacks, flail away ineffectually, and then either make a free strike, or get hit and then make at least 2 POW 12's against a stationary model.

It is a delay beast.

The slag is a melee light in disguise. It also passively repels infantry.

[Cannibalbob]

I was thinking of the Slag and Winter as ranged models and now I'm thinking that isn't the intent at all. Because I was playing them "wrong" it lead to me getting stomped.



I think you got unlucky with the Slag. I play him a lot in mkI, and he really has not changed much other than going up in relative cost.

I consider him a ranged beast, as he generally does a very respectable amount of damage barfing all over enemy warjacks. However, he often needs Farstrike on so that he can generate an aiming bonus to actually hit things. If he can aim then he can reliably barf 2 boosted shots onto most heavies and that amounts to 12+4d6 damage each shot. That generally tears off arms or puts big holes in the middle of damage grids. When things are a bit closer up he can sometimes forgo Farstrike or just rush in and flail at softened up targets.

The winter simply has too poor of a rat to make his crit something you can really count on. Against most targets he needs pretty big numbers to hit (an 8 to hit def-12...) and this squeezes out a lot of critical results on the dice spread. This means he is statistically not very likely to hit - and his chances of a crit are even worse.

The only real use I see for him is if you want that animus, or stuffing him in front of something to get it to hit him and freeze itself. You could do as Sev mentioned and use him to engage and threaten free-strikes or a freeze if they attack him. But thats a poor use of something that costs 6 points.

[Scalpel]

On paper I'm not sure the RAT 4's on the Elemental Lights is good enough, especially since now Trolls have no way to boost ranged attack rolls (Calandra is the best chance).

I've got a game lined up for the next 2 nights, and 2-3 games the weekend, and one of my goals is to put the new Lights through hoops to test them out.

That and Fennblades.

[Cannibalbob]

On paper I'm not sure the RAT 4's on the Elemental Lights is good enough, especially since now Trolls have no way to boost ranged attack rolls (Calandra is the best chance).

I've got a game lined up for the next 2 nights, and 2-3 games the weekend, and one of my goals is to put the new Lights through hoops to test them out.

That and Fennblades.

I would agree. I am really disappointed that our elemental lights are not at least rat-5.

I mean, even the Rockram is now rat-5. The lights are closer in function to gunbunnies, and my gunbunnies have rat-6 with powerful attack.

[Endgame]

On paper I'm not sure the RAT 4's on the Elemental Lights is good enough, especially since now Trolls have no way to boost ranged attack rolls (Calandra is the best chance).


After playing against Stryker and his Chargers, I was wishing that the Slag troll had powerful shot. I know when I play against Grunback blasters, I'll wish that the Winter troll had Powerful attack.

I know fury is a better mechanic than focus, but given that Trolls can't just wipe away fury like the other factions, a little fury efficiency sure would be nice.

[Cannibalbob]

After playing against Stryker and his Chargers, I was wishing that the Slag troll had powerful shot. I know when I play against Grunback blasters, I'll wish that the Winter troll had Powerful attack.

I know fury is a better mechanic than focus, but given that Trolls can't just wipe away fury like the other factions, a little fury efficiency sure would be nice.

I will settle for higher base stats. I think powerful shot is a stretch. While I don't think it would make the winter overpowered, I doubt it happens.

Give me higher base RAT values (5s or 6s) and things are better. But, the Slag and Winter would still at best be a 5pt beast if they got a RAT-5.

If I could pick total changes, I would make the Pyre and Slag both rat-5 and range-10. I would then price them at 5 points. The winter would get rat-5 and drop to 5pts as well. That sounds about right for what they can do.

[Endgame]

If I could pick total changes, I would make the Pyre and Slag both rat-5 and range-10. I would then price them at 5 points. The winter would get rat-5 and drop to 5pts as well. That sounds about right for what they can do.

If I could pick the changes, I would:

Bump the Impaler to 6 or even 7 points. If Far strike is the reason the other trolls cost 6 points and have low RNG, make the Impaler expensive.

I'd leave the slag alone except to give him powerful shot & RNG 10.

I'd drop the Winter to 5 points and give him powerful attack on the spray. Lots of boosted attack rolls would let him potentially get more crits, though in general I still don't think he would be worth 6 points (I lost him to 3 boosted pow 12s :()

Now I just have to play to see if any of that actually makes sense in the real world.

[Scalpel]

The problem is that RAT 4 Means you'll need to Aim most times.

Now add in the fact that your range is only 8" on the Pyro / Slag.

Then finally add in the fact you'll be taking at least 1 Imapler too, so those beasts can Aim and still have range!

The Winter Troll I don't mind too much ... but even then the Scattergunners I feel are on the lowish side of things, and they are 1 Higher RAT than the poor thing.

However, lets see what the play testing this week shows me. ;)

Edit : Ohh Calandras Feat + Sprays = Win (From what I can tell)

[FranzGrenstein]

The more I look at the MK2 list I think Trolls are supposed to be the slow and lucky faction.

Think about is you need luck to get the tough rolls, and how many criticals are in the elements of the resources of the trolls. The faction has at least 14 criticals, the other three factions and minions have 16 instances of criticals, 5 of which the Trolls can use as minions.

[i_like_tool]

never rely on a crit, never.


Wrong faction to not rely on Crit. PP still feels we have to rely on crit to get a lot of things done

[Sevwall]

I don't feel like we ever rely on crits. I feel like its tempting to try, but its not necessary.

As to the lights, I find it hard to find 6 points for a Winter or a Slag.

I have no trouble taking a Pyre, Bouncer, Impaler or Axer.

The axer is probably too good.

[theummhmmguy]

I think the Axer might be too good, but they made up for it by making his animus no longer pay for the charge.

I still think our solution to the elemental lights is Simple.

Winter RAT 5
Pyre RAT 5 RNG 10
Slag RAT 5 RNG 10

Keep their costs the same.

[Cannibalbob]

Winter RAT 5
Pyre RAT 5 RNG 10
Slag RAT 5 RNG 10

Keep their costs the same.


I still think all 3 of these beasts should cost 5 points with those changes.

[Amarel]

I think the Axer might be too good, but they made up for it by making his animus no longer pay for the charge.

I still think our solution to the elemental lights is Simple.

Winter RAT 5
Pyre RAT 5 RNG 10
Slag RAT 5 RNG 10

Keep their costs the same.
I'm not seeing my Winter Troll coming out so often at 6 points, even with a bump in RAT. At 5 it's got a good chance though.