Old Witch = arguably best scenario caster?

[Rogue Sun]

I know there has not been much said lately in regards to the Old Witch being a particularly good caster. By no means is she bad, but she just doesn't seem to have that umph needed to reliably win you games. I think this may change with the new steam roller rules. For the most part these new scenarios deal with controlling some portion, usually in the middle of the table, for 2 turns (usually).

With this in mind I started thinking about viable casters for such scenarios. Vlad is a strong choice with his warjack blitz, but the Old Witch really jumped out at me for one reason: board control. The Old Witch is the only caster we have that can shut down a 28" diameter section of the board with her feat, but better yet, she can do it so that the edge of this bubble is at the enemies deployment zone on first turn, and still remain fairly untouchable.

Turn 1: One focus to the scrapjack, the rest on her. Scrapjack runs 12" to the middle (hopefully ending in some concealment), Old Witch casts Unseen Path placing her 2" in front of Scrappy, Iron Flesh on herself and Weald Secrets on scrappy (for camouflage, assuming they're in concealment). Old Witch uses her feat and the rest of your army moves up as far as possible into the objective.

Obviously as it is turn one you don't score points, but this turn is about positioning. The enemy can't move much forward for fear of death or damage to their jacks/beasts giving you another turn to get your army up.

Turn 2: You have the ability to strike the enemy hard, or build an immense wall of warriors and jacks in front of the objective that they must fight through to gain any points.

Thoughts? I'm sure it's not this smooth in theory, but I'm hoping to get a chance to try this move out this weekend. Seems like it would be very hard for armies to deal with.

[i_like_tool]

The enemy can't move much forward for fear of death or damage to their jacks/beasts giving you another turn to get your army up..

I agree with most of what you suggest accept this part. You pop your feat early to force your opponent to not move up infantry. Most Jacks/Beast aren't to worried about Pow 14(need damn good rolling to really have an impact)but even a lot of casters WILL hang back giving you more time to setup

It works well, I've been enjoying using her as of late I just need to hammer out a "set" list with her to practice. I don't think she gets the love she deserves

[Rogue Sun]

I agree that the beast and warjacks have little to fear, but as I said, turn one was all about positioning. If your opponent decides they want to move all of their beasts and jacks up, effectively splitting their forces, this gives you the opportunity to destroy them on turn two without much in the way of a counter attack.

[Avecrien]

Plus she's great for helping her battlegroup lodge bullets where the opponent doesn't want them to go. You secure ground early, deny movement, and proceed to rain bombards.

[Malkav13]

Looks like a fun tactic to try out. You can combine it with gallows to help take care of any jacks or beasts that decide to press on ahead. Pull the adventurous one in and let a jack take care of them.

[Avecrien]

I always have a problem putting together a solidly balanced list with her though. I get all giddy about Augury and wind up with more gunjacks than face beaters. Models like the assassins can really punish people during feat turn if used correctly too. For the heavy stuff I know the bears are awfully points efficient. I go back and forth on what else I should bring with.

[Waaargh]

The counter to turn one feat seems to be running the high ARM models up to be able to contest an area. A couple of models would even smile at her speeding towards them - any caster/lock able to move jacks/beasts fast, and those able to shoot through Stealth. For TB's it's eDoomy and Grim. Others can come up with similar for other factions.

[whats82]

My friend used to do that and was capable of extending the feat INTO opponent's deployment zone slightly. (mk1 rules using gorman and murder of crows to teleport scrappy and using it as the feat focal point). Works amazing in scenario, almost to the point of autowin.

[Critical]

Not hard. Srapjack runs so it is 12" ahead of the Old Witch. Old Witch walks up, casts unseen path ending up 2-3" in front of scrapjack and pops feat, also drops Murder of Crows at her feet to gain stealth. This should easily place her feat area 1/2" inside your opponent's deployment zone.

Probably better to use it in turn 2 to ready hinder them and force action. I like using her feat in late game when the loss of a charge/run/special action is really game changing, and at the worst possible time for your opponent, like when eKreoss is just getting into position for his feat and then realizes that you've just boned his army for two turns.

Cheers!
Critical

[Marth]

I'm not so sure... I mean "Strike at the Summit" (Kill the Caster, it just sounds more graceful) is a win condition everywhere. So you just make them forgo the scenario altogether and go after your head right away. *shrugs*

[Critical]

I think the point is to force them to go casterkill and then win by scenario.

Cheers!
Critical

[Marth]

So... setting yourself up to win by scenario, thus forcing the opponent to go CK? And the CK denial is meant to be MoC+Prowl/WS on the Scrappy?

[Critical]

I guess so. A full run up the board by Ulhans, Drakhun, Markov and full IFP combined with AD widowmakers, Manhunters, Yuri, flanking Kossites and a couple of Kodiaks/Marauders/Berzerkers racing up after them to provide later board control is going to be a very hard army to contest if they get a foothold far enough up the board.

Keep in mind that this set-up completely ganks armies that rely on infantry AD like Mage Hunter armies or Privateers.

It absolutely will not work on a Gorten Searforge list. Gorten woudl charge somethign from outside the area, laugh at the POW14 and then feat to pull the Old Witch 8" towards his army and then gun line the hack out of her. I could see that going really really wrong in that case. If she did survive she could just unseen path back to scrappy and the game woudl be as good as won. Could be away to lose a killbox scenario in record time of course...

You could protect her somewhat by dropping a ternion blizzard on her before she wanders off for the feat to keep stealth on her and perhaps keep all focus except for what you need for Iron Flesh and Unseen Path. Then you would be sitting at DEF15+2+3 = DEF20 against ranged and DEF18 verses melee and stealth.

Cheers!
Critical

[Mod_Faultie]

It absolutely will not work on a Gorten Searforge list. Gorten woudl charge somethign from outside the area, laugh at the POW14 and then feat to pull the Old Witch 8" towards his army and then gun line the hack out of her. I could see that going really really wrong in that case. If she did survive she could just unseen path back to scrappy and the game woudl be as good as won. Could be away to lose a killbox scenario in record time of course...
The alternative is that Gorten Pushes the Old Witch and everyone else in his control area back towards their own deployment zone 8", and on the next turn they're -3SPD and can't run or charge. This could gum up the works as well, counteracting much of the benefit the Old Witch just gained.

However, this isn't really a fair comparison. You're comparing two of the best scenario casters in the game...of course they're going to be hard match ups against each other. Against the vast majority of casters, though, I think the Old Witch can really shine.

[Critical]

Why would the searforge caster push her back? If you drag her forward in this game scenario she will be at about the 32" mark putting her 2" outside your deployment zone (Searforge get +4" of deployment). At this point you shoot all your gunbunnies who can get within 5" at her which should be 2-3 not including the sprayers who can be further away. Two or three hits and she'll be dead or really hurting.

Cheers!
Critical

[Cambeul]

Gaspy could also kill Witch the next turn in the above scenario.

Run a Arcnode up, (or two or three with the new Sirens) Old Witch does not survive 3-4 Breath of Corruptions.

[i_like_tool]

Yes there are a few casters who could kill you for running up and feating early during Scenario's BUT hopefully you, as a player, realizes these match up's and don't get yourself killed to early.

[Pikaed]

It absolutely will not work on a Gorten Searforge list. Gorten woudl charge somethign from outside the area, laugh at the POW14 and then feat to pull the Old Witch 8" towards his army and then gun line the hack out of her.

Cheers!
Critical

Consider that, as it is written now, Field of Talons is an aura, not a pulse. Hence. nothing can charge from outside into it.

[Kommissar Golovko]

Consider that, as it is written now, Field of Talons is an aura, not a pulse. Hence. nothing can charge from outside into it.

Aura or Pulse has nothing to do with it. You can charge when you're in the OW's control area. You can very much charge from outside her control area into it:

"While in the Old Witchʼs control area, enemy models cannot run, charge, or make special attacks."

[Pikaed]

But, if you start from outside and charge into the area, you are indeed charging while in the Old Witch's control area.

I would say that aura, and pulse, has very much to do with it. ;)

[Avecrien]

If you've already started running, entering an area where you can't initiate a run won't affect you. Entering an area that drops your speed will stop you immediately. Same for a charge. But if you can drop the feat on top of their models before hand, it doesn't matter :)

[Pikaed]

Is there any ruling for this?

Perhaps I missed one. I cannot see why, if the feat wording says "cannot charge" I should read "initiating a charge".

But probably I missed a crucial rule or clarification...

[Avecrien]

I could be wrong, kinda dazed from work and no foods. I don't see how it details how it works either way, but I know if I throw a beast into the feat area it won't suddenly lose momentum and drop to the ground. :)
I'll come back to it when I'm thinking more clearly.

[Kommissar Golovko]

It's in the rules. Here it is again: "While in the OW control area". It essentially means that as long as you begin your activation in her control area, you can't run or charge or make special attacks. If you begin outside of her control area, you will be able to charge. Nothing in the OW feat says your model stops charging when it hits her control area. Just that you can't charge while in her control area. It's been played this way ever since Mk 1. Again, it doesn't matter if it's pulse or aura. Sorry.

[Malkav13]

Tis true, it was ruled this way. I just searched the rules forum and confirmed it.

[Pikaed]

It's in the rules. Here it is again: "While in the OW control area". It essentially means that as long as you begin your activation in her control area, you can't run or charge or make special attacks. If you begin outside of her control area, you will be able to charge. Nothing in the OW feat says your model stops charging when it hits her control area. Just that you can't charge while in her control area. It's been played this way ever since Mk 1. Again, it doesn't matter if it's pulse or aura. Sorry.

The feat doesn't say "models beginning their activation" but "while".
Nothing in the feat says that model can charge if they start outside of the area.

The feat's wording has changed from MKI, where the wording said "currently". I have been searching through the MK II Rules questions and haven't found any ruling.
And, if it is in the new MK II rules, could you please indicate me where?

... I think this could be a good rule question..

.... and this is why I have posted it in the Rules Forums. Just to make sure you are right.

[Kommissar Golovko]

Up to you. I would wish it was how you want it to be played but it would be too powerful. I play the OW a lot in Mk 1 but not in Mk 2. If they rule in your favor, then hey, would make me play her some more.

Nothing in her feat says that model's can't charge if they begin their charge outside her control area. Because they can charge outside her control area. It would be crazy if she had a feat which worked outside her control area. Remember that feats only operate up to a caster or lock's control area in most cases and will not affect anything outside the control area. And once the charge has begun, nothing in the OW feat stops the charge. Unless they die after taking the Pow 14 hit at the end of the movement part of the charge.