Megalith- completely nerfed now

[Lex Icon]

The nerf from Natural Power to Geomancy is a huge, huge nerf bat. The only thing it got to compensate is that it always has Weight of Stone now, which is pretty minor. At 11 points, it's nearly identically costed compared to its MK 1 version.

It got much worse, with no compensation in cost. The Warden got a change to Spell Strike, but now it's 4 Fury, so that's some compensation. And the change from Spell Strike to Geomancy isn't as dramatic as the change from Natural Power to Geomancy.

I think Megalith needs to be 10 points.

I would pick a Warden for the animus and chain attack every time now. Although I'd rather have a Feral Warpwolf or a Satyr over either one.

[Sevwall]

Wieght of stone kills things dead. He also is the only heavy who construct who can heal himself.

With his MAT and P+S Buff over a regular Warden, as well as Wieght of stone and auto-healing, he seems worth 2 more points.

I could be wrong, but it seems worth the cost over a regular warden.

[Lex Icon]

Wieght of stone kills things dead. He also is the only heavy who construct who can heal himself.

With his MAT and P+S Buff over a regular Warden, as well as Wieght of stone and auto-healing, he seems worth 2 more points.

I could be wrong, but it seems worth the cost over a regular warden.

Weight of Stone isn't as good as the ability to cast Stone Skin, Earth Spikes, Lightning Tendrils, Forked Lightning, Wind Blown or Wurmwood for free. And he's just as pricey as before.

By taking Megalith over a Warden, you lose one of the best animi in the game, Chain Attack Smite, and it costs you 2 points. Not worth it, IMO.

[Sevwall]

I'm not so sure the animi is that great anymore though. It not longer prevents charging.

I can't comment on how he was in MKI. It doesn't really matter what he did in MKI.

[Lex Icon]

I'm not so sure the animi is that great anymore though. It not longer prevents charging.

I can't comment on how he was in MKI. It doesn't really matter what he did in MKI.

You're right about the animus. I don't think either the Warden or Megalith is worth the points.

It kinda matters what he did in MK 1, because he costs the same, but performs worse. In MK 1 he was good, but balanced for his points.

[Elias Macale]

No. It shouldn't matter what he did or was in MKI, because this is MKII. He's not costed the same at all, because the point system is different, and the system of costing is different. The faction may even be different in prevalent ways. What matters is how he works in MKII; comparisons to MKI are pointless.

[DemonCalibre]

I think their is more tech too weight of stone then people are letting on, the defense modifier can be very important.

Megalith isn't going to total most heavies even on his best day, with power 16 and most likely 5 hits, That is just how it is, not a big deal. Weight of Stone gives you the advantage that after Megalith has done his business and you see the results, you can shoot into the hand to hand, at only at a net -1 penalty, considering the lower average defense of a Warjack most of our shooting elements can hit that, and do the damage to polish it off.

Now I know your going to ask why didn't you just shoot it in the first place? It's a resource allocation thing, If Megalith gets in there first and hammers it, I can allocate my shooting/spell support to have the appropriate amount and put him down, so I can use that shooting else where(I am specificly thinking of Woldstalkers) Maximizing my damage output. If I shoot first I am setting up a situation where I might do to much damage with my shooting and Overkill with Megalith, or I under shoot and I leave the 'Jack alive then I have to scramble to make it happen.

[Lex Icon]

No. It shouldn't matter what he did or was in MKI, because this is MKII. He's not costed the same at all, because the point system is different, and the system of costing is different. The faction may even be different in prevalent ways. What matters is how he works in MKII; comparisons to MKI are pointless.

Ok, I know there are some differences to take into account, but this is 95% the same game. It's not like they switched to d20 or anything. You can certainly compare across editions with a lot of accuracy.

Megalith is a really easy call to make because he's almost exactly the same, except for the nerf to Natural Power. I'm not considering him in a vacuum, either. His synergies within the faction got weaker, and his counterparts vying for the same points got stronger.

Mk 2 Megalith costs 11 points. After factoring Warlocks in to a 30 point game, you should have an average of 35 points to play with in the new system's version of 500 points. That means that Megalith costs you around 32% of your points after Warlock in MK 2.

In MK 1, you have an average of 435 points to play with after warlock in a 500 point game. That means that Megalith costed you about 31% of your points after Warlock in a 500 point game. The cost is the exact same. And he's much worse with the nerf to Shifting Stone healing, Natural Power and Forked Lightning.

Just because they're different editions doesn't mean you can't reason through the changes.

[Lex Icon]

I think their is more tech too weight of stone then people are letting on, the defense modifier can be very important.

Megalith isn't going to total most heavies even on his best day, with power 16 and most likely 5 hits, That is just how it is, not a big deal. Weight of Stone gives you the advantage that after Megalith has done his business and you see the results, you can shoot into the hand to hand, at only at a net -1 penalty, considering the lower average defense of a Warjack most of our shooting elements can hit that, and do the damage to polish it off.

Now I know your going to ask why didn't you just shoot it in the first place? It's a resource allocation thing, If Megalith gets in there first and hammers it, I can allocate my shooting/spell support to have the appropriate amount and put him down, so I can use that shooting else where(I am specificly thinking of Woldstalkers) Maximizing my damage output. If I shoot first I am setting up a situation where I might do to much damage with my shooting and Overkill with Megalith, or I under shoot and I leave the 'Jack alive then I have to scramble to make it happen.

MK 1 Megalith with Baldur could wreck any heavy. A free charge, weight of stone and free Stone Skin after the charge put the lights out for anyone. Now he really can't do it, and he's still insanely expensive.

Mk 1 Megalith was well worth his points with Kruger and Baldur, good with Morvahna and probably best left home with the other Warlocks. He was fairly balanced. Mk 2 Megalith isn't worth his points with anyone. His new affinity is an insult.

[Tweak]

I will just add my two cents but megalith seems rather worth eleven points, and may even be a steal. Heck, geomancy is just a way to balance out that ability to stop the sheer spam of the old way.

The fact that it selfs heals and also heals other wolds, screws with knockdown and trample, weight of stone is amazing, and finally heals baldur just cause. I'm just a troll player but I would say that Megalith is a rather cheaply priced heavy that adds a lot of versatility to circle.

[DemonCalibre]

Using Mark One examples doesn't mean anything Lex

It's Mark Two, we have a new Paradigm to work with here, we need to not focus on what was, but what is.

I am also going to point out, a sure sign of Nerdrage is when you talk about how a rule for a game is an insult to you. Particularly, when you gloss over the fact it really isn't a bad Affinity at all. Baldur's affinity means Megalith can reliably fuel Baldur all of his fury by himself. 4 for maxing out, and cutting for 2, then healing d3 during his turn. This means you can either go Baldur and just megalith(not a horrible option), or do a normal beast load out, and be much more agressive with your other beasts because Megalith can keep you cover for fury even if they die.

[Tweak]

His new affinity is an insult.

If that is an insult could I please get in on that

[Lex Icon]

Using Mark One examples doesn't mean anything Lex

It's Mark Two, we have a new Paradigm to work with here, we need to not focus on what was, but what is.

I am also going to point out, a sure sign of Nerdrage is when you talk about how a rule for a game is an insult to you. Particularly, when you gloss over the fact it really isn't a bad Affinity at all. Baldur's affinity means Megalith can reliably fuel Baldur all of his fury by himself. 4 for maxing out, and cutting for 2, then healing d3 during his turn. This means you can either go Baldur and just megalith(not a horrible option), or do a normal beast load out, and be much more agressive with your other beasts because Megalith can keep you cover for fury even if they die.

If you truly believe that a d3 heal to Baldur is a good affinity, then great. I feel like it's very weak, and an afterthought. It's providing you with 0-4 points of healing in most games. That's a very underwhelming synergy. A game winner it is not.

I don't have any nerdrage. Any perception you may have of that is just from the fact that text doesn't convey tone. If you knew me as a person you'd know how silly the concept is.

I don't really consider the affinity a personal insult to me. I meant it more like if I got a $5.00 gift card to McDonald's for Christmas. As in, "this has such a small value, I'd rather have gotten nothing at all".

I love all the people saying that you can't compare across the two systems. That's just not true.

Megalith has gotten worse in the newest edition. That is a true statement. It's no mystery, and it's not hard to see. He got his best ability nerfed, and a lesser ability to replace it. (which he already had with his best warlock in Mark 1.)

Hey, maybe he'll change after playtest. He's just kinda mediocre, and not worth taking right now.

[Lex Icon]

If that is an insult could I please get in on that

I don't even know what this means?

[Lex Icon]

I will just add my two cents but megalith seems rather worth eleven points, and may even be a steal. Heck, geomancy is just a way to balance out that ability to stop the sheer spam of the old way.

The fact that it selfs heals and also heals other wolds, screws with knockdown and trample, weight of stone is amazing, and finally heals baldur just cause. I'm just a troll player but I would say that Megalith is a rather cheaply priced heavy that adds a lot of versatility to circle.

But he already had all that stuff in his previous version, and was really only worth his points with Baldur and Krueger, maybe Morvahna. Now he's not worth it with anyone. He wasn't pSorcha, who needed to be nerfed. He's just suffering overnerf because pKrueger was such a BAMF.

[Tweak]

Sorry about the lack of clarity let me rephrase myself.

If that is a type of insult PP is throwing around, free healing and all, then could i please sign the trolls up for it. I would always love free healing on my lock.

[Tweak]

I think Lex that DemonCalibre hit is rather squarely on the nose. With the affinity added to the mix it allows circle freedom to take fewer beast choices since megalith can keep baldur full on fury on his own. Most factions would frankly salivate at the thought of the points suddenly freed up when your not forced to take more than one beast for a fury battery.

I would suggest you take a moment to empty your mind of what happened in mk1, since that seems to be where a lot of your expectations are coming from and try out this new megalith. I think you will be surprised at his effectiveness.

[Elias Macale]

The reason comparing across the editions does not work, is because as DemonCaliber said, the paradigm has shifted. A lot of things got 'worse' from MKI to MKII. That should not have an impact on whether or not it's worth taking in MKII. Yeah, the game still resembles what we played in MKI, but the metagame is entirely different, and it's within the metagame that a models worth is truly decided. Knee-jerk reactions won't help the Field Test do it's job either. That's what we're doing here, by the way, testing the game. So if you play the Megalith, and after several games are completely convinced that it's still overcosted. I intend to test it out myself, but for now, I cannot agree with you, especially because it doesn't look that bad on paper to me.

There's nothing wrong with discussing it, but don't be surprised when someone disagrees with you.

[Lex Icon]

Sorry about the lack of clarity let me rephrase myself.

If that is a type of insult PP is throwing around, free healing and all, then could i please sign the trolls up for it. I would always love free healing on my lock.

Well, it would probably make more sense for Trolls, since you're more likely to take damage and not die. Baldur's our toughest Warlock, but he's still likely to die with 2-3 solid untransferred hits.

I respect everyone's opinion, but I maintain that this ability is crap. It's completely reactive, and does absolutely nothing to help you win the game in 90% of likely scenarios. It only kicks in if Baldur's been damaged and survives, and even then it's only 2 points of healing per turn on average. This game is too fast and aggressive for a slow regeneration ability to help much.

[Lex Icon]

I think Lex that DemonCalibre hit is rather squarely on the nose. With the affinity added to the mix it allows circle freedom to take fewer beast choices since megalith can keep baldur full on fury on his own. Most factions would frankly salivate at the thought of the points suddenly freed up when your not forced to take more than one beast for a fury battery.

I would suggest you take a moment to empty your mind of what happened in mk1, since that seems to be where a lot of your expectations are coming from and try out this new megalith. I think you will be surprised at his effectiveness.

The affinity only saves you 2 HP per turn in this scenario. And that's unlikely to help you too much, since apparently Megalith is your only beast.

[Rosicrucian]

Weight of Stone is actually kind of neat against enliven, particularly if you throw in Lightning Tendrils on the Megalith. Regardless, I think +1 arm, +1 pow, +1 mat, healing and pseudo-sustained attack from WoS are probably worth 2 points.

[biggiy2c]

I've used both Megalith and Woldwarden since the MKII release. Megalith always finished games with little to no damage. His heal is a big gift for him. His animus is definitely weak, and needs a bit of change. Additionally, I like him having weight of stone instead of the chain attack. I usually charge in and power attack, or just charge and make many attacks with him. With the woldwarden I usually just skip the power attack and hope to get smite off. The 2 working together is sick. Megalith camoes in and headbutts them on the ground, woldwarden charghes in and oblitterates the target. The only real issues I see with either of them is megaliths animus, and geomancy having such a high cost now. I never get all the fury of of them in my games now, but usually don't need to worry too much. I even payed for my charges in my last game even though i was using baldur, and still won with no major problems.

Megalith, is prolly not worth the extra 2 points, but I'd still pay the points to use him, especially when playing with baldur.

[magi]

I'm kinda looking forward to spamming Eruption of Life with him and his warden friends... works with Tornado and Crevasse too.

That said, Megalith just feels like he's missing... something. I'll find out what when I use him, I guess.

[DonJean]

Megalith is the THead of MKII hordes. He does look overcosted and the affinity is very situational I agree but having used him in a couple of games now I can say he realy does perfrom. The self heal is huge since it allows you to play aggressive and not become fury strapped on your lock since you dont need to heal him to bring aspects back.

Comparing from MK1 to MKII was somehting that got shown time and time again to not work in the WM field test and it's just a lesson that some never learn. I mean you can still see it in some of the boards.

So yes Megalith is expensive, He's a character model and not really suppose to be used in small games anyway. When he is he performs just fine.

[UnderWood]

So did anyone else notice megalith can't actually heal himself

His rules say that he automatically heals d3 hitpoints you can't heal a construct the old rule said that he removed damage.

So due to current wording megalith can't heal himself

[Elias Macale]

I'm thinking it's fair game to assume that that's an oversight and the Megalith can heal itself. I mean, call me crazy, but I doubt Privateer would have included such a rule if they're trying to cut back on unnecessary rules, as it's not only unnecessary, but also completely pointless.

[Zyrael]

ha. maybe that the shifting stones are a misprint too.

[LEJKaya]

So did anyone else notice megalith can't actually heal himself

His rules say that he automatically heals d3 hitpoints you can't heal a construct the old rule said that he removed damage.

So due to current wording megalith can't heal himself

Awesome. That may need mentioning, I doubt we really need clarification that it's a misprint.

[UnderWood]

See what I'm hoping is that if thats a misprint what else might be a misprint.

shifting stones probably

druids medicate maybe

if they made medicate heal constructs (increadibly unlikely) megalith would pretty much be unkillable I think :)

[Buddhanutz]

Why did they take remove damage from shifting stones. Not to highjack the thread, but constructs are way too much of a liability now. : (

[Lex Icon]

If comparing between MK 1 and 2 doesn't work for you, then compare MK 2 Megalith to MK 2 Mulg.

Mulg has +1 Mat, +2 Pow, +1 FURY, +1 DEF, self healing, and better affinity. His Reach makes up for the lack of SPD. He's much more worth 11 points, and I'm not even sure that Mulg is that strong of a model for 11 points. It's just that Megalith is overcosted.

Privateer is charging us a premium for Geomancy, which is so pricey to use that you'll probably only use it once or twice in a game.

I guess I'll have fun field testing him spamming Crevasse, though.

[Rosicrucian]

If comparing between MK 1 and 2 doesn't work for you, then compare MK 2 Megalith to MK 2 Mulg.

Mulg has +1 Mat, +2 Pow, +1 FURY, +1 DEF, self healing, and better affinity. His Reach makes up for the lack of SPD. He's much more worth 11 points, and I'm not even sure that Mulg is that strong of a model for 11 points. It's just that Megalith is overcosted.

Privateer is charging us a premium for Geomancy, which is so pricey to use that you'll probably only use it once or twice in a game.

I guess I'll have fun field testing him spamming Crevasse, though.

- WoS more than makes up for the MAT difference IMO.
- +2 POW, +1 FURY. Yup that's nice, no argument.
- +1 def. The difference between def 10 and def 11 is pretty negligible in practice.
- Self-healing seems a bit of a wash. Megalith's is more reliable but Mulg has regen too.
- Reach is nice, but speed 4 vs. speed 6 is a big different in battlefield mobility particularly since Megalith has pathfinder. I'm not sure this is even.
- His affinity is better, yes. But how good is doomshaper?, and its still limited as an affinity.
Furthermore, the Megalith has pathfinder, geomancy, and 4 more boxes. I think that makes up for the POW and FURY difference. Geomancy is an amazing ability. Not only are you a pseudo-arc node you can still alpha strike with spells. Three or Four Crevasses or Chain Lightnings is just mean. It gives tremendous flexibility and safety to our control/support casters.

Now, Megalith may indeed cost a bit too much. Maybe he needs +1 Fury or something. However, It's close enough that sweeping statements like "Megalith- completely nerfed now" can't be made without some significant playtesting.

[mikasa]

Built in Weight of Stone makes a world's difference. It means that you'll be boosting to hit once, and never look back. It means he is now interesting as a beat stick with other casters too. You can't spellsling like a madman anymore, so what? He still gets the critical spells off when it's required. If you relied on that you were greedy, plain and simple. He is tough as nails, and now grounds and pounds his designated target. And even if it survives, it's not going anywhere.

Saying that Mulg the ancient is better is totally unrealistic. This is coming from a trollblood player.

Mulg's animus is far worse. Mulg moves 4 inches. Trying to setup a chain of things to eat to make him go faster does not work most of the time. Mulg is only good for his affinity, Weight of stone is baseline. Mulg needs to be forced to heal. Megalith does it for free. Megalith has alot more appeal that Mulg on any day.

[DemonCalibre]

2HP off your Warlock a turn is a great deal actually, considering the fact in actual play once you wrack up about 4-5 damage to your warlock, you start really sweating turns without transfers or only one.

I am not going to lie getting away with running one beast isn't as good as it use to be, in MK1, with the inexpensive costs of the Gorax/Argus/Woldwatcher, but it's still an advantage.

People keep talking about him not being worth it, have any of these people actually taken and used him in a game? Personally I haven't weighed in much on Geomancy because i haven't Wardens yet, my first thought is the flexibility of Geomancy over Spell strike has some legitimate advantages with certain casters, A Warden can cast Wind Blown twice a turn with Epic Krueger, cast Mirage for Moshar so he can stick to the business of casting pillars etc.

Also I don't think we are paying a premium for Geomancy, I think we are paying a Premium for no frenzy. Think about it, everyone has to frenzy test for shaking effects, except us. Our Wolds don't care, they just get up, all the reward with no risk. This is particularly prevalant in our Heavy Wolds(Megalith and Warden) with their enhanced fury stat.

AYGTET, isn't a great rule, the directly towards means unless mulg is standing around by himself he can't use the ability frequently because he will get stopped by other models.(same problem the Gnarlhorn has with counter slam, the movement is so specific it's very easy to box you out)

[Menoth's Gambit]

Though Megalith's feat seems lack luster, it sure seems like a key animus in certain kinds of scenarios.

I don't own Megalith at this time, but Geomancy is more flexible than the old style spell strike. It also costs fury, which is the biggest issue.

I think weight of stone on him is just great. Its also a nice as if he does not finish off a target, he sure makes it easier for others.

[MenothJohn]

The nerf from Natural Power to Geomancy is a huge, huge nerf bat. The only thing it got to compensate is that it always has Weight of Stone now, which is pretty minor. At 11 points, it's nearly identically costed compared to its MK 1 version.

It got much worse, with no compensation in cost. The Warden got a change to Spell Strike, but now it's 4 Fury, so that's some compensation. And the change from Spell Strike to Geomancy isn't as dramatic as the change from Natural Power to Geomancy.

I think Megalith needs to be 10 points.

I would pick a Warden for the animus and chain attack every time now. Although I'd rather have a Feral Warpwolf or a Satyr over either one.

Ladies and Gentlemen...let me introduce to you...the man you've known for all these years...Khobai!

[Bladestorm]

I think the +2 for Megalith over a regular warden is well worth it, I don't really care that he lost the chain attack because I don't think I've ever landed it with a warden anyway and now undergrowth isn't nearly as good as it used to be either.

I'm not yet convinced that the warden he's based on is quite worth it though - I've always found they were basic at best outside of spell casting mostly because of the low MAT and P+S and now the spell casting is a lot more expensive .. so I'm concerned for the time being. I won't actually get to try it till next week though and will be lucky to get two games in then before having to wait another week and try again.

[fildrigar]

I think I have a simple solution, to make Megalith a teeny bit better. ( At magic, anyway. ) Change Geomancy to Greater Geomancy. Same wording, just add another sentence to the end. "If the spell is an offensive spell, the attack roll is boosted." Kaya is the only Warlock that still has a cost 2 offensive spell, so it wouldn't be too terribly unbalanced.

[Buddhanutz]

The problem with weight of stone is you will probably be boosting the first hit for one fury. Thats fine. But the reagular warden can just pop undergrowth for 2 fury and bring himself up to MAT 7, which also benefits the rest of your army. He is just lack luster.

[Rosicrucian]

The problem with weight of stone is you will probably be boosting the first hit for one fury. Thats fine. But the reagular warden can just pop undergrowth for 2 fury and bring himself up to MAT 7, which also benefits the rest of your army. He is just lack luster.

Weight of Stone has a bigger debuff, "costs" half as much and ALSO benefits the rest of the army. Not useful vs. infantry but better vs. beasts. And he still has his own useful Animus.

[Lex Icon]

Ladies and Gentlemen...let me introduce to you...the man you've known for all these years...Khobai!

Do you plan to actually comment, or just threadcrap?

[Mutton]

Overall, I think that PP looked at the Deathjack, saw how casting spells from his was so great, and thought it works well on something that doesn't have resource come out of nowhere. Fury is balanced with Focus through overall cost structures, feat power, and spell power along with cost. Now if your WWardens are casting spells, they aren't doing much,and they are making fury you have to get rid of somehow, which means not running the rest of your beasts as hot or making the WWardens close to useless next turn. I'd let them, once per turn, cast a spell at -1 cost. Megalith can take this to the next level and let him cast twice at -1 or something. I just don't want to Geomancy right now.

[More Shooting]

Do we know if Craft Talisman from the Bone Grinders still works with Woldwardens?

[LEJKaya]

Do we know if Craft Talisman from the Bone Grinders still works with Woldwardens?

It does not:

Craft Talisman (􀋒Action) - Target a friendly warlock within 3˝ of a model in this unit that is in formation. If the target
warlock is in range, when he casts a spell and is its point of origin, the spell gains +2 RNG. Spells with RNG SELF, SP, or CTRL
are not affected. Craft Talisman lasts for one turn.

[krom71]

I have to say that I think some of our models are now overcosted, but Megalith is not one of them. He's as deadly as any of our heavies except the Feral Warpwolf in straight unbuffed melee combat. He can debuf enemy models with a single hit and he can cast your warlock's spells.

[Ancient_of_MuMu]

If he had one more FURY I would say he was just right. He is decent but just lacking that little extra something.

[Zyrael]

I'm gonna put this out there. When, since the 5 month Primal launch window, has warden spam been problematic from a game balance point of view? ......

No caster but Krueger found it worthwhile, and THEN if you were spamming wardens you were neglecting other beast selection and it weakened the versatility of your army. It's not like Baldur and 3 wardens using pew pew AoE's was ruining anything (really they'd just shoot for ONE crit). Morvahna surely wasn't breaking them... nor kromac... either kaya.... mohsar turned up his nose at them.

So why was spell strike so bitterly and angrily eviscerated?

They kicked out terrain, board control, denial as one of our game play mechanics. Now we lose being the spell slinging faction as another. We long ago lost the mobility edge to Legion, and we're even threatened by Skorne now... so what's our niche in MK II? What do you think PP intends it to be?

[DemonCalibre]

Actually in MK1, Warden spamming with Baldur was nicked named "I don't have fun list" the level of Denial MK1 Baldur could cook up, particularly with Sentry Stones, and Bone Grinders. It wasn't the crit knock down that was the hammer, it was the 2-3 boosted power 13 AOEs on target in your lines every turn, then you have a forest(or more then one) denying your army line of sight, and the ability to attack. If you were ever looking like you were going to break through, Feat, Shoot more, Prep manikins, rinse and repeat.

There was only one list I got more complaints about then that one(Which was my Morvhana "You achieve nothing meaningful list")

Edit: I am also not so sure spell strike was brutally eviscerated, the ability to cast non-offensive spells is pretty potent, and the ability to cast very expensive offensive spells(particularly Tornado, and Crevasse) are also pretty potent. I am not 100% because I haven't put the models on the table to play it out and see what happens.

[UnderWood]

I've been thinking about geomancy all day and how its different from spellstrike

The main differences are
it can cast multiple spells a turn.
it can cast 4 fury spells.
it can cast upkeeps.

and the big one
You can do it at ANY time

so before or after attacking, moving, power attacking anything really

The downside of this is that its incredibly fury intensive 3 fury for an offensive spell 2 for most buffs and that not even adding in boosts.

If you want to cast a chain lighting with a boosted to hit roll thats a maxed warden that can't pop its own animus. If you cast EoL you can't boost your to hit or pop your animus.

If you attack after casting a spell you can't boost as effectivly so if you cast windblown on yourself a warden is MAT5 with 2 fury left.

The warden always had problems actually killing other heavys as its only PS15 with a low MAT and now with shake off smite can't protect you. Imagine attacking a khador heavy with a warden if you smite it it will just shake effects and charge you back you litterally can't get out of its threat range unless you roll a 5 or 6 and pop your animus.

If you cast a spell with geomancy you can't do any serious boosting if you do decide to attack.

So you can geomancy and make power attack put bounding on a warden trample him over a unit then shoot something with a spell thats sweet but then BAM maxed out warden. Sure you never need to take fury off it but if you don't take fury off it its almost useless against everything.

Geomancy is a great idea but it makes wardens and megalith generate huge amounts of fury for fairly low return as it can't do anything very well anymore.

[DeusxMachina]

This is probably a hideously noobish question but since 'locks can treat animi as their spells for the purpose of casting, can the warden and megalith use geomancy to cast other beasts' animi? I'm assuming no, but looking at the rules I just want to be sure.

[Zyrael]

In MK I natural power and spell strike both did not allow for animii... So i'm assuming no. Besides the text says the word "spell" even when animii are used as spells they are called animii.

I'm really having to side with Underwood here. Geomancy is a nifty idea, with a bad execution. The cost of the spells allows for no boosting really so even if you use them as spell slingers they are doing it badly... so whats the point? They are just outclassed in battlefield effectiveness by their Living warbeast competitors. I honestly don't see a purpose for wardens or megalith anymore. I'd take 10 fuzzy heavies before considering a construct.

[Critical]

That's probably a no. Couldn't do it in MK1, nothing has changed. So no.

I think they got the points right on Megalith and the Woldwarden.
Muzzle twice a turn will be rude. As will spirit fang x2.

Cheers!
Critical

[UnderWood]

That's probably a no. Couldn't do it in MK1, nothing has changed. So no.

I think they got the points right on Megalith and the Woldwarden.
Muzzle twice a turn will be rude. As will spirit fang x2.

Cheers!
Critical


The only problem with that plan s that you need to damage with spirit fang and muzzle for it to work.

Spirit fang is PS11 muzzle PS12

You can't boost to hit or to damage if you want to cast them twice.

[Rosicrucian]

Hmm, I think Mohsar takes advantage of Geomancy just fine. After consideration I think the issue seems to be when you want to make extensive use of the ability with a fury 6 warlock. Zyrael's suggestion of -1 fury would work, giving you back a fury to boost with if need be. I think another straightforward solution might be to give the Woldwarden and Megalith a magic ability score of 8 and have them cast with that.

[ChronoCrusher]

Megalith and the Wardens should just go back being what they were, reliable heavy beasts that could cast spells for free, unless you needed to boost,and free up your 'locks fury.

Also, you will always compare MkII to MkI because you played MkI and you know what things were wrong and what things were right in MkI. Thats how you know if things changed for the better, got worse or got useless in MkII. There will always be a comparison so stop telling people to stop comparing.

And yes, Mulg is better than Megalith now...I know, I play Trollbloods and Circle.

[DemonCalibre]

Fury -1 would be totally broken though.

That means I could Windblown 4 times per warden, that is a bit much.

[Rosicrucian]

Fury -1 would be totally broken though.

That means I could Windblown 4 times per warden, that is a bit much.

Sorry, I didn't fully articulate his suggestion, it was -1 Fury once per turn.

[Doctor Chopsaki]

Okay, well, I didn't read this thread super thoroughly. So, correct me if I'm wrong. But, as I was playing it, Geomancy requires a "force" before the spell cost. i.e megalith and wolds can still only cast 3 cost spells. That being said, In the few games I've played with megalith and woldwardens, I find that megalith (and maybe even the wardens) fall by the wayside when compared to the playability of other beasts. The only perk i really care for is the ability to run now.

The casting off buff spells can make up for some of the crippling changes. but insofar as i can see, megalith and the wolds are now just smashing machines with low mats. I'd almost just like to see them turned in to arc nodes or something.

Right now, I don't enjoy playing them. Maybe if I were wrong about the "forcing" and they were able to cast 4 cost spells they'd be worth it. But my few field tests have proven relatively unfruitful.

[Doctor Chopsaki]

Okay, well, people seem to be declaring that there is no "force" cost in the MK2 questions area (which doesn't really sync up with the text on the card). Hopefully they'll change the text up for the next print. Regardless, though, megalith needs a serious bone thrown his way to be worth the 11.

[Rosicrucian]

Okay, well, I didn't read this thread super thoroughly. So, correct me if I'm wrong. But, as I was playing it, Geomancy requires a "force" before the spell cost. i.e megalith and wolds can still only cast 3 cost spells.

No extra fury for the force. It works similarly to using an Animus. See http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?t=424 for the confirmation from an infernal.

[Doctor Chopsaki]

Well, given that 4 cost spells can be brought out with megalith and woldwardens i'm expecting a few more mohsar and construct lists to surface (for cravasse infantry slaying (huzzah remove from game spells)). and mohsar's maltreatment damage can be healed off with megalith around. so cheers to a free fury. I've been looking for a reason to play that cantankerous old bugger anyway.

[fildrigar]

He's not completely nerfed, if he's knocked down or stationary he won't go bananas getting back up again.

---------------------
Ya ever notice that people say "He went bananas" and they also say "He went ape ***" When you think about it, aren't bananas ape ***? - Saint George Carlin, RIP

[AndrewBarney]

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I seem to remember seeing somewhere that spells/animi can be cast in the middle of a charge now (after the movement, before the attack). This means you can charge, stoneskin, attack. Or charge, undergrowth, attack.

Also, because Geomancy isn't a (*)action, you can attack and fling spells in the same turn. Before, I was always thinking "hm ... cast chain lightning/earth spikes or charge something ..." - his chain attack has always been awesomeness for me - free slam? Yes please! I can see charging in, casting undergrowth, getting 2 hits plus a slam (hopefully a heavy into something valuable ... or a wall) then having 2 fury left for a possible spell (assuming he's getting a free charge w/Baldur).

I see Megalith doing something similar but boosting to hit (to activate WoS), not getting the nifty chain attack, then having 3 focus to cast a spell (assuming you can hit something with it w/o boosting). In general, Megalith just seems like a more durable version of the Warden, and the extent of this durability is what will determine whether it's worth the extra 2 points (and loss of the chain attack). If he's a monster that just wont' die, I can see him worth 11 points - especially with Baldur.

[Zyrael]

This is funny.

If a Warden uses it's animus, charges, interrupts to use stone skin, then attacks. It has an effective MAT 7, and PS 17.... the same as a warpwolf. Except a warpwolf would still have 4 fury to burn. Using the warden for combat is just inefficient.

As it stands Geomancy is only really useful to juggle upkeeps on key turns where your lock needs the extra couple fury. IE putting stoneskin on baldur. With a couple wardens you could activate a few units/solo's with an upkeep spell. Lightning Tendrils jumps to mind.

[Bakemono]

I have to echo Zyrael's sentiments (I find myself doing this quite often... so much so that I suspect we must have very similiar play styles). Woldwardens (and the Megalith) simply are not efficient melee constructs if you are talking about Heavy on Heavy action. They cannot be the target of a Gorax's animus. For someone else to use Stone Skin on them, their threat range is reduced. If they use it on themselves, their damage output is vastly reduced. They don't have a great MAT to begin with.

The Woldwarden/Megalith (even with the bump in Fury) is most effective as our mobile artillery. They do fine against Light Warjacks and Light Warbeasts but they simply don't have the damage output to put down other Heavies in a reliable way. The problem we face in MKII is that Infantry spam is declining. That is what we used the Woldwardens to kill. Extra Earth Spikes and Lightning against Heavy Warbeasts and Warjacks isn't really that effective. I can tell you this from first hand experience. Even when you knock them down, they just get back up. Of all our models, it is the Woldwarden that took the largest hit. This is because the rules change in charging made their Animus a LOT less effective. It used to stop charges cold unless the charger had pathfinder or all-terrain. Now anyone can charge through it.

[Lex Icon]

Well, given that 4 cost spells can be brought out with megalith and woldwardens i'm expecting a few more mohsar and construct lists to surface (for cravasse infantry slaying (huzzah remove from game spells)). and mohsar's maltreatment damage can be healed off with megalith around. so cheers to a free fury. I've been looking for a reason to play that cantankerous old bugger anyway.

Wardens are usable with Mohsar, but still best with Krueger. Chain lightning is just as good at dishing out POW 10's as Crevasse, and allows you to either generate one less Fury or boost your to hit. They can also Tornado now, which is probably the most disruptive spell you could possibly spam out of all Warlocks in the Circle. Big time props on the Suikoden 1 avatar, BTW.

I'm tired of Wardens working better for Krueger than Baldur, but whatever.

@Zyrael- Agree that Geomancy is inefficient if you want to melee. (and for a 9 or 11 point heavy, I want some melee). Megalith compounds that problem by paying 2 more points for the same ability. He's a big point sink, and now it's basically either you Geomancy or melee. You can do both, but there's almost no reason to. Megalith can melee only slightly worse than a Feral, but he's 2 more points.

Maybe Mega just needs a new animus. His current one is crappy. A really useful animus might make him worth taking again.

[Buddhanutz]

For a possible animus what about:

Living roots: Range 6 Cost 2
Traget model cannot move or be moved and immeadiately remove d3 damage points. Living roots last one round.


I also remember when Meta was coming out and a forum member spoiled Megalith for us but got a few of the "facts" wrong:D He thought that Megalith had both *combo strike, and hammer fists (extra damage die to knocked down models). I think fixing his animus and adding either one of these abilities would make him worth the 11 pts.

[Thracy11]

I just thought I would add a use for the geomancy Constructs.

With Baldur, they can slam for free, boost for 1, and then drop an "autohitting" earth spikes template on the KD'd target and anything near it. So, potentially, you could slam a heavy into something else, knocking both down (or into a unit of infantry) "autohit" with the Earth spikes, and take out much more than you would have just slamming or attacking the heavy.

The same works with other casters. I'm not saying that you're wrong in thinking they're worse off now than they were; but I am saying they're not TOTALLY useless. It just takes some extra effort to use them.

[LEJKaya]

After a few games I'm going to join the "Geomancy does not work as it should" crowd.

Unless how it should work means as an ability that either is a bit narrow, too expensive or never hits. In which case knock 2 points of the warden and 3 off megalith.

Casting fury 4 spells is ok, but it basically comes down to crevasse and EoL and neither of those casters have any other synergy with constructs so that's not huge.
So, our staple used to be forked lightning. We'd boost to hit and still have fury left for casting undergrowth. Well, not that undergrowth is pointless we won't be doing that but casting chain lightning and boosting to hit costs 4 and this does stop transfers.
Also if you have 2 of them then you have to remove 8 fury next turn. Which you can't.

So, the possibility of casting two 2 cost spells? Well that's now muzzle and spirit fang, since DtD was nerfed the hell out of and wurmwood removed.

So with Kaya (6 Fury) you generate 8 fury (Ok with pKaya) and get 4 low pow attacks that will miss unless pKaya is in 12" of the target, which isn't great for some kind of construct based shooting list. They also need to cause damage unboosted in order to get their effect.


I still think pKrueger and Mohsar can use constructs to make a decent ranged list... but with the new huge nerf to healing (No stones...possibly) you do require megalith now.

Overall, too many nerfs to them, Geomancy, Healing, Animus, Points... all combine to make wardens a little lacking, especially compared to our other options.
Looking at the boost FWW and the satyrs got, I can foresee me not bothering with constructs at all anymore, even with Baldur (They do nothing for him, except megalith... but even then 11 points for a small heal?)

[Nutcase168]

I'm in agreement with the Geomancy overhaul required.

My idea:
keep fury 4
force for 1 to cast the spell
use the Fury stat of the beast instead of the caster to hit.

You can still boost without maxing out but the accuracy is down so you hit infantry on average but not higher def models.

[Bakemono]

So far I've not been the least bit impressed with the new Woldwardens or Megalith. Geomancy simply doesn't perform. The models cost far too many points given that Undergrowth is no longer of any great use, and the requirement for being able to spam Earth Spikes or Lightning is moot.

The Woldwardens were great for fighting Infantrymachine, but infantrymachine is no longer going to be common. They were good for throwing Warjacks to stall them, but with the advent of "shake off" such tactics are of only marginal use. What we have ended up with is an overpriced Warbeast which most Warlocks can't heal. It has some magical ability but this is offset by the fact that there are very few spells which provide maximum utility. With all Self and Control Area spells off the menu, we see options that just don't fly.

[LEJKaya]

If they change back to the old rules and make the warden force to spell strike it would be fine.

TBH I think undergrowth needs a boost too. 2 fury for a def debuff is huge cost for not much. Either return the concealment, make models lose pathfinder in the 3" or make it cost 1.

[Spooker]

Played 1 game with the Wardens MKII.
I am on board also so far. Even with much more playtesting, I see the
big constructs not being used like they were in the past.
I will post my playtest and comments.

Of cource maybe E-Baldur is so bad%^& that he adds +2 fury and +2 mat +2 strength to all Wardens.;)

Okay we can all dream.

Taake care

[Zyrael]

I think the best idea so far, is to have Geomancy require a force for 1 fury. Make it limited to non "self" non "ctrl" spells. And combine this with lowering the warden's fury by 1.

There... geomancy fixed.

Give megalith mat 7....honestly a 11 pt character heavy beast with mat 6 is an insult.

Hammer Fist as an animus for Megalith isn't a bad idea, with our variety of slams, throws, pitch, and other knockdowns. Cost 2 seems appropriate for such an idea.

In conjunction, make megalith's affinity with Baldur that he may make a power attack for free and retain his initial attacks.

[LEJKaya]

I don't have an issue with megaliths animus. It's ok, not stand out awesome nor terribly bad. Undergrowth is poor though, it needs help.

MAT 6 too isn't an issue other than being low in comparison. With WoS anyway he may as well have lower MAT since he lower DEF of enemies anyway.

Geomancy really is the issue, forcing for 1 would sort it right out, combine with reduce back to fury 3 for wardens and 4 for megalith. This does have the disadvantage of putting the castable spells back to 3 fury cost only but we can live with that.

[Bakemono]

Given the changes in the charge rules, I would like to see the Woldwarden animus go from just creating rough terrain to creating forest. Drop the defensive debuff entirely and let the giant surrounded itself with forest 3" in every direction. This gives it back some board control utility.

[Zyrael]

Actually Bakemono... you may have just come up with a perfectly elegant solution.

3" bubble of forest solves a lot of problems. Many of our effects keyed on forests that require the janky sentry stone would be easier to pull off. 3" of forest would make the warden untargetable with ranged attacks except by those with hunter or eyeless sight.

Of course it would also block LOS for the warden, so he would have to use geomancy before. It'd be a strong animus... but it counter synergizes with fuzzy warbeasts... not sure if it would need to be 3 fury... or stay 2.

Really good and simple thinking Bakemono!

[Bladestorm]

They specifically went through and changed every model that had smoke bombs to force them to place them such that they remained targetable and could only block LOS to other models, I really can't imagine them changing undergrowth to make the woldwarden untargetable.

So far as Megalith being viable I think the following should work:

Baldur brings Megalith and a Gnarlhorn.
Either baldur or the Gnarlhorn pops the Gnarlhorn's animus on megalith.
Megalith charges for free 11", uses geomancy to pop stone skin on himself then makes his charge attack at mat 8, P+S18. Assuming that damages (and odds are it will) he inflicts weight of stone for -3 DEF and from this point on makes three more attacks at the equivalent of mat 9, P+S18.

It ought to put a big dent in things with a good threat range. Plus with arm 21, 35 hitboxes and the D3 regeneration he's one of the toughest models in the game. Throw in the affinity and I think we probably have most of our 11 points justified, albeit only with Baldur and with a Gnarlhorn around - though the Gnarlhorn is no real hardship now that he's a nice slam machine for setting things up.

[DemonCalibre]

Bladestorm while that is good(Actually very good)

What about the rest of the casters who don't have access to Stoneskin?

[Bladestorm]

Kaya has pack hunters to help with accuracy and soothing song to remove the fury created by throwing spirit fangs with geomancy or boosting a lot. While his animus allows him to block slams on her while she is getting in close to keep the rest of her battlegroup and there targets within range of pack hunters. (wether the rest of that battlegroup are wardens now at effective mat 7 chain slamming things away then hitting them with a speed penalty so they can't return, warpwolves just plain killing them or satyrs doing what they do)

Morvanha has her own +2 arm spell though it's not as good, so he's at least as tough with her and he's capable of throwing her erruption of life if a really good oportunity comes up.

Generally he's a somewhat self-sufficient, versatile beast that's the toughest we have in the faction even without an additional arm buff, with an animus that means your lock can get close with less risk, who heals himself, never frenzies and can throw the odd spell or take a flank to extend the range of key spells like Gallows or Dogpile when setting up an assasination run.

I suspect he's really only worth 10 with casters other than Baldur, but then he might be underpriced with Baldur.

Woldwardens I think are best with Kaya due to pack hunters blanket +2 mat making the chain attack usable and geomancy accurate enough without boosting to hit combined with a decent 2 focus attack spell and the ability to remove fury, but that can probably make most beasts worthwhile. I have a lot harder time seeing them as worth 9, especially when compared to Megalith.

[Bakemono]

I still say I'd rather lose Geomancy altogether and simply get the Animus back to something useful. I'd rather have something with the real ability to do board control. Woldwardens able to sprout forests around themselves, run blocking, and stall assaults have some tactical use. The current Woldwardens do not.

They are just a paper tiger. People go "oh neat... spells!" The reality is you can cast things which aren't going to give you any real leverage. The Woldwardens have just become cheap, wannabe Warjacks. The old Spellstrike was fine. It was situational. When you ran into Infantrymachine it came in handy. The rest of the time you could use Undergrowth to stall charges and gain board control. That offset their limited combat ability compared to our better choices.

Let's look at the reality of MKII. We don't need another bruiser. We already have the Feral Warpwolf. Starting at a MAT-7, boostable to a MAT-9 with the classic Gorax combo (not to mention the MAT-11 if you are using P-Kaya), we have a Warbeast that nobody else can match in accuracy. It has the same starting P+S as the Woldwarden. It costs the SAME as a Woldwarden.

CLEARLY you will not be choosing the Woldwarden for combat utility unless you are a moron. The only reason you would choose the Woldwarden is because of its other utilities. Ok. Let's examine that. The new version of Undergrowth is pointless. It no longer stops charge attacks. It no longer provides concealment. It is just a patch of rough terrain and a debuff which takes away HALF the available Fury. This coincidentally limits the possible spells that can be used with the vaunted Geomancy. Hrm. It ain't sounding too good is it hoss? Let's go back to Geomancy. Great. Have you really looked at the spells which it will be able to cast? I'm going to address those spells each in their own post because there are limits to each post and I don't want to get cut off here. It suffices to say that Geomancy sounds good but isn't going to pay the rent. Check out those coming posts. Of course, before we forget.... nobody but Baldur can repair these things.

*So... you aren't going to buy the Woldwarden for combat. We have better models for that. You aren't going to buy it for the new Animus which sucks. You aren't going to buy it for Geomancy if you have half a brain. What's left?

[Bakemono]

As I promised earlier, I want to address each of our Warlocks in relation to the new Woldwarden. It is my contention that the change in charge rules has taken 70% of the value of the Woldwarden's Animus. Privateer chose too take another 5% by removing the concealment it used to provide. It is now a subpar Heavy combatant (by Circle standards at least), which can generate a patch of rough terrain and an expensive DEF debuff. It can also cast spells. There is a caveat though. It can't cast all the spells. In fact, the spells that would actually have been useful have been specifically made verbotten. :) Let's look at:

KAYA THE WILDEBORNE

Occultation:
This is a good spell. The Woldwarden can cast it. Unfortunately, as it is an upkeep spell, the Woldwarden cannot spam it. It would just bury the previous casting of it. It is more efficient to just have Kaya cast this spell in the first place and save the Woldwarden's Fury for combat. So this spell is a big fat ZERO as far as valuable useage.

Soothing Song;
This is an awesome spell. It would, in fact, make the Woldwarden worth taking in every P-Kaya list (even at the cost of losing a valuable Warpwolf). It would allow her to keep her valuable Fury for defense and Spirit Door. Your Woldwarden would be a very durable form of Fury management. SORRY. NO CAN DO. The range of this spell is the control area and thus is against Geomancy rules. Another big fat ZERO.

Spirit Door:
This would be da'bomb. I don't have to explain why. But it is also a COntrol area spell and thus another Zero. Do you see the trend developing?

Spirit Fang:
This is a crappy spell, even when Kaya casts it. The POW is too low, and the debuf doesn't even work unless you manage to damage the target. This would be throwing good Fury after bad. If you really wanted to debuf someone you would walk up and use the subpar animus.

*So there you have it. P-Kaya has a total of two spells which Geomancy would allow you to use. One sucks and the other is really doesn't require a Woldwarden to cast it. I'll go ahead and throw Epic Kaya in right now:

Dogpile:
Things are looking up. This is a great spell. It is useful. This one is a winner for Geomancy. Granted, it woudl still be better to cast this spell with Epic Kaya so you could use the Woldwarden to smash to its optimal potential, but I think we can all agree this is at least a nice option.

Forced Evolution:
This is another great spell but it is an upkeep. There is no value is spamming it. It might be nice to have this option but it is extremely situational as to when you would ever want to use the Woldwarden for this. It isn't a big fat zero, but it sure as hell isn't worth taking Geomancy for.

Muzzle:
Eh. Another Kaya spell with a low POW. This one had the added advantage that an enemy Warbeast can't advance toward this model. This spell is useless against Warmachine, and there really is no reason you would ever want to cast this from a Woldwarden. A Woldwarden is probably WHERE you want your enemy Warbeasts heading. It is one of your more durable options.

Shadowpack:
This is another great spell that has a control area effect so you can't use it. Go figure.

*Well... Epic Kaya has marginal (i.e. one good spell) that she can funnel through a Woldwarden. Hrm. Woldwarden or another Warpwolf? Think hard. :)

[Buddhanutz]

Let's look at the reality of MKII. We don't need another bruiser. We already have the Feral Warpwolf. Starting at a MAT-7, boostable to a MAT-9 with the classic Gorax combo (not to mention the MAT-11 if you are using P-Kaya), we have a Warbeast that nobody else can match in accuracy. It has the same starting P+S as the Woldwarden. It costs the SAME as a Woldwarden.


I disagree with this. I definitely think we need more than one beast that can really put a hurt on other heavy targets. The FWW and Gorax combo is getting a little old.

A charecter warbeast should be able to hurt what he is fighting. P+S 16 weapons don't do it. I used the hammer smith for a long time and he taught me, quite matter of factly, that P+S 16 don't cut it (with three focus that is only one less attack than megalith).

I have played circle since they came out and we have always suffered from not being able to deal with heavy armor. Our two handed beasts don't cut it anymore since jacks and beast can shake off knock down. With the proliferation of Warjacks, we need some extra hitting power!

For eleven pts Megalith offers us nothing that is not provided by regular Wardens. You are right that we can just take a Warp Wolf. That is the problem, why would we not just take a WW? We can't rely on Baulder all of the time. Morvahna lost her damage buff, and the gorax only works on living beasts. Megalith should be our but kicking Wold.

[Bakemono]

Let's take a look at the man who started it all. I am talking about Stormwrath. In MKI he really put the Woldwarden on the map. The lightning spam was Infantrymachine's worst nightmare. It wasn't uncommon to see Stormwrath cruising with 3+ of these bad boys, even though he couldn't heal them. One would think that he would still get the most utility out of them. Yes and no.

Chain Lightning:
The spell, if anything, has gotten better at killing infantry. The problem is that we won't be fighting massive infantry armies anymore. We will be fighting Warjacks and Warbeasts with balanced infantry support. Woldwardens cost a lot. You aren't going to run with a bunch of them on the off chance you can liquidate one unit of Infantry and then sends showers of ineffectual sparks (POW too low) against Heavies which will proceed to come eat your lunch. The long and the short of it is this spell still works just fine with Woldwardens, but there just won't be needed. Stormwrath himself will be able to handle any infantry.

Deflection:
This would be great. It might be nice if a Woldwarden could help Stormwrath save some Fury and throw this up every round. The problem is it is a control area spell so... as with all spells that would actually be good for a Woldwarden to cast... you can't do it. Sucker.

Lightning Tendrils
Eh. Not a bad spell. Reach is great. The electrical part is not really that important anymore considering there aren't going to be that many things that low a POW is going to annoy. It isn't a zero but it sure don't make Geomancy a hero.

Skyborne:
A flying Woldwarden sounds humerous but it is a Self spell so no can do.

Tornado:
This one is a Winner. One could envision Stormwrath and a cabal of Woldwardens spamming tornados, tossing opponents here and there. There is a minor drawback. The cost of the spell means there will be no boosting to hit or the damage. The other drawback (a major one) is that with the introduction of the "shake off" those people you toss are just going to get back up and come right at you. Unless you can stay at the extreme range of this spell with your tornado spam, they are just going to get back up and walk over and tear you apart.


The final ****ysis is that Stormwrath can get some utility from the current Geomancy. The question is whether or not he can get enough to make it a strategy. I've been trying. So far it has not been working too well. To make tornado spam work, you have to really have enough Wardens to keep your opponent tossed back. It doesn't do enough damage though, and eventually they get through. At that point you are just a bunch of crappy Woldwardens and wishing you had Warpwolves.

[Bakemono]

I disagree with this. I definitely think we need more than one beast that can really put a hurt on other heavy targets. The FWW and Gorax combo is getting a little old.

You aren't disagreeing with me. I would love to see different options for us. They just don't exist. CHoosing a Woldwarden (as they currently stand) simply because you feel bored with the Warpwolf would be stupid. My commentary isn't about what new models we should get. My commentary is addressing the models they have given us currently. We don't need another bruiser unless that bruiser bring something to the table the Feral Warpwolf does not.

[Rosicrucian]

Yeah, the Woldwarden currently feels like a heavy lancer for 3 more points. If they don't change I don't see myself taking more than one and even then he'd mostly be showing up in larger games.

[Bakemono]

Yeah. I was going to do each and every Warlock but I think the point is already made. People can look themselves. We don't have a Warlock (not even Baldur) who has any synergy with them. The problem is we have small spell lists, this is further cut by the Geomancy rules. That is further limited by the costs (hence no effective boosting). I hope Privateer is reading these posts and goes back and gives them another look.

This is what I would like to see:

Turn Geomancy back into the old Spellstrike. With the emphasis off Infantrymachine it will hardly matter. As Spellstrike, people had lots of ways to shut it down. Every now and then we might actually use it and get a kick out of it. The REAL use we got out of Woldwardens was board control.

You need to give the new Woldwarden that leverage back. CHange Undergrowth into 3" in ever direction of forest. Make it cost (3). Hell... make it cost (4) if you like. I'd pay it. You have to give us a reason to use this guy and right now... you are giving us every reason NOT to use them. Give us back the ability to apply some board control.

I own a lot of Constructs. I've been testing them extensively. This isn't theorymachine talking. This is frustration at having at least a third of the models I own (and used extensively) being dead weight when I try to use them now. The Woldwatcher is totally useless. The Woldwyrd is situational at best and difficult to use to its full potential. The Woldwarden is simply inefficient and ineffective compared to power and glory of the Warpwolves and Gnarlhorn. The Sentry Stone has issues and is so difficult to use effectively right now that it is counter productive to field it. The Sentry Stones are too easily destroyed. The interest we all held in the Circle was the flexibility. We had a lot of wildly different kind of things at out disposal. While not all of them were great, they all did fill a niche. We don't have that now. You have to give us a reason to field something.

[magi]

Would casting Muzzle on a warbeast by using Geomancy prevent that warbeast from advancing towards the user of Geomancy or it's Warlock?

Eh, I guess it doesn't matter. Geomancy is crap. Way too expensive, throws off our fury management when used (I bet Legion would love it though), and doesn't give the heavy enough umph to be effective.

I like the idea of bringing spellstrike back. Make it cost a fury and use the FURY stat of the Woldwarden as it's magic stat.

Alternatively, why not just get rid of the Wold casting spells all together and just give it the channeling ability? Then give Megalith

As for the animus, why not make it "Treat all terrain within 3" of this model as rough terrain, and enemy models within 3" of this model take an POW 8 damage roll." or something to that effect. This would work great with the channeling ability.

Depending on how the points fall out, maybe then a switch in point costs between the Woldwarden and the Gnarlhorn Satyr might be appropriate?

As for megalith, give him Geomancy as is, but make the cost 1 less to cast the spell. I think having one model that could spam 4 windblowns would make him worth his 11 points.

[Sevwall]

The Wardens rock with Kaya. Effective RAT 8 spirit fangs.....

[Bakemono]

The Wardens rock with Kaya. Effective RAT 8 spirit fangs.....

Yay? So let me get this straight... you think the fact that Woldwarden can spend (2) Fury to hit with a POW-11 spell rocks? You MIGHT inflict a point of damage and if you do you get a (-2) DEF buff. You will have to forgive me if that doesn't rock me like a hurricane.

[lubedini]

Wardens are pretty good with pKaya. With effective mat 7 they can hit the low defense jacks that we have trouble killing. Don't forget about the chain attack. Force one fury to charge, hit 3 times causing a slam, force 3 fury for spirit fang with boosted damage on the knocked down jack. This relies on not rolling double 1s to hit for the most part, and one average 10 on 3 dice. The jack is knocked down and can't charge sparing your warden the next turn, and you can soothing song to make your fury count right.

Rinse, lather and reapete.

[Sheik Yerbouti]

The spell, if anything, has gotten better at killing infantry. The problem is that we won't be fighting massive infantry armies anymore. We will be fighting Warjacks and Warbeasts with balanced infantry support. Woldwardens cost a lot. You aren't going to run with a bunch of them on the off chance you can liquidate one unit of Infantry and then sends showers of ineffectual sparks (POW too low) against Heavies which will proceed to come eat your lunch. The long and the short of it is this spell still works just fine with Woldwardens, but there just won't be needed. Stormwrath himself will be able to handle any infantry.

Am I the only one thinking chain lightning is worse than forked lightning? POW 10 makes it necessary to boost against most shield wallers. Even MBed zealots have a ok-ish chance of surviving that.

[Bladestorm]

Wardens are pretty good with pKaya. With effective mat 7 they can hit the low defense jacks that we have trouble killing. Don't forget about the chain attack. Force one fury to charge, hit 3 times causing a slam, force 3 fury for spirit fang with boosted damage on the knocked down jack. This relies on not rolling double 1s to hit for the most part, and one average 10 on 3 dice. The jack is knocked down and can't charge sparing your warden the next turn, and you can soothing song to make your fury count right.

Rinse, lather and reapete.

Personally I'd cast the spirit fang between the charge move and charge attack, so that it makes all it's melee attacks whilst the target is -2 def as well as the warden +2 mat :).

[Bakemono]

Wardens are pretty good with pKaya. With effective mat 7 they can hit the low defense jacks that we have trouble killing. Don't forget about the chain attack. Force one fury to charge, hit 3 times causing a slam, force 3 fury for spirit fang with boosted damage on the knocked down jack. This relies on not rolling double 1s to hit for the most part, and one average 10 on 3 dice. The jack is knocked down and can't charge sparing your warden the next turn, and you can soothing song to make your fury count right.

Rinse, lather and reapete.


No. No. No. A Woldwarden is as expensive as a Warpwolf. A Warpwolf is a MAT-9 with pKaya. You will hit to start with without having to burn Fury to try and lower DEF or rely on a Chain Attack.

Also a Warjack that is knocked down will STILL charge you next turn. They will shake off the effects. You are locked in MKI mindset and it will lose you games. You don't need or want knocked down Warjacks. You need dead Warjacks. The Woldwarden isn't going to do that for you.

[Bladestorm]

No. No. No. A Woldwarden is as expensive as a Warpwolf. A Warpwolf is a MAT-9 with pKaya. You will hit to start with without having to burn Fury to try and lower DEF or rely on a Chain Attack.

Also a Warjack that is knocked down will STILL charge you next turn. They will shake off the effects. You are locked in MKI mindset and it will lose you games. You don't need or want knocked down Warjacks. You need dead Warjacks. The Woldwarden isn't going to do that for you.

It's not the knockdown that stops them charging, it is the -2 SPD from spirit fang. That makes a lot of warjacks SPD 2 and denies them the ability to charge or slam.

[Bakemono]

Personally I'd cast the spirit fang between the charge move and charge attack, so that it makes all it's melee attacks whilst the target is -2 def as well as the warden +2 mat :).

Or you could just activate your Animus which gives an automatic (-2) DEF. The idiotic Spirit Fang Spell has to hit. Even if it does hit, it probably won't do any damage and therefore not apply the debuff. The better option overall is not to even use a Woldwarden. Use a Warpwolf who doesn't need a Debuff to hit. Then you can spend all the Fury on tearing what you hit into little, jagged bits.

[Bakemono]

It's not the knockdown that stops them charging, it is the -2 SPD from spirit fang. That makes a lot of warjacks SPD 2 and denies them the ability to charge or slam.

So they advance. The likelyhood you are going to slam them far enough away is doubtful in my experience. Dead is better than stalled.

[Bladestorm]

Or you could just activate your Animus which gives an automatic (-2) DEF. The idiotic Spirit Fang Spell has to hit. Even if it does hit, it probably won't do any damage and therefore not apply the debuff. The better option overall is not to even use a Woldwarden. Use a Warpwolf who doesn't need a Debuff to hit. Then you can spend all the Fury on tearing what you hit into little, jagged bits.

Effective Fury 8 hits the def 9 to 11, spd 4 warjacks (the ones that have more armour than beasts) on anything but double one. It beats armour and deals damage on a number that varies between 9 and 10, which is reasonably solid on 3D6.

You really aren't doing it for the -2 DEF but for the -2 SPD which undergrowth does not provide but spirit fang does.

[Bladestorm]

So they advance. The likelyhood you are going to slam them far enough away is doubtful in my experience. Dead is better than stalled.

At the very least they are down a focus point to stand up which impacts on what the warcaster and the rest of the battlegroup can do that turn and restricts that jack to 2 maximum to spend. If they went 3"+ (66.6% chance) they can't advance into range unless they have reach. With Virility from the shadowhorn you could guarantee that distance if you really wanted to.

With a good slam angle you can knockdown multiple jacks or some infantry or on a really good day the warcaster while doing it.

The big problem with the warpwolf isn't the warpwolf but really the primal animus and strength warps he needs to do to pull off a chance at killing the warjack, that leaves him arm 16 and frenzied the turn after, easy meat for reprisal - which the wardens aren't.

Plus the warpwolf and gorax is 13 points where the woldwarden is 9.

[lubedini]

No. No. No. A Woldwarden is as expensive as a Warpwolf. A Warpwolf is a MAT-9 with pKaya. You will hit to start with without having to burn Fury to try and lower DEF or rely on a Chain Attack.

Also a Warjack that is knocked down will STILL charge you next turn. They will shake off the effects. You are locked in MKI mindset and it will lose you games. You don't need or want knocked down Warjacks. You need dead Warjacks. The Woldwarden isn't going to do that for you.

I was just trying to show a use for wardens. It might not be the best use of the points, but it can be effective and throw an opponent off. There are other options in circle than a Warpwolf...