Some Rhyas MKII brainstorming

[slinkdawg]

Ah Rhyas, Legion's very own "finesse" melee beatstick warlock. After my first read of the MKII rules, I have some concerns, but I think if we play test her out and provide meaningful feedback she will be fine. I have not gotten my games in yet, but I would like to give some of my thoughts, get a decent list together, and start play testing.

Llael's master duelist - why I have hope

Before I got into Rhyas, I played with a very similar Warmachine caster, Ashlynn D'Elysse. Prior to MKII Ash was widely disregarded as a weaker caster, her high defense was too easy to get around, and it was too hard to get her into melee and kill anything.

During the MKII Fieldtest, some tweaks were made to her spells and some of the models she would use (Vanguard, Mule). Combined with that and some of the improvements to jacks, I was pleased with those changes, but many argued that she was still too fragile and too hittable. When the final rules hit, the finished product was a big improvement and I think they did a great job making her balanced yet competitive. I'm hoping the same will happen with our favorite sword-crazed wood elf.

Similarities:

High MAT - Ashlynn wins with the 1pt higher MAT, but with True strike - Rhyas can auto-hit for the price of a boost

High Defense - Again Ashlynn has higher base DEF, but Rhyas used to make up for this by going invisible and gobber smoke


Ignoring Freestrikes - Rhyas has the edge on this one. With Acrobatics and the higher speed, she can hop over the screen and get into melee.

High Damage Output - Not sure who has the edge on this one. Ashlynn has POW 11 and weapon master, while Rhyas has POW 12 decap. Ultimately, I think both of them (in a melee caster assassination run) would be spending a focus/fury to hit and probably one to boost damage.


Mid/Low Casting ability - With FOC 6 and FUR 5, we keep these ladies on the table, but it is not for amazing/reliable spell casting.


Got frustrated not having Magic Weapons in MK I - Run it's Vilmon!


The 10.5" to 13.5" auto-win

I think one of privateer's main concerns with Rhyas was that she could be very difficult for newer players to face. Newer players can sometimes have trouble anticipating threat ranges and protecting their caster. I have won a number of games with Rhyas because my opponent got too close to her control area and forgot about acrobatics. The first time I played against Rhyas (I was using Siege), I fell for the exact same thing. It was just as much fun as going against eMorghoul, the Skarre bomb, or Sorscha 3D - and I think is really what PP wanted to change. I can also say that I have lost against Feora with both Rhyas and Ashlynn by whiffing in melee. In Rhyas's case I did not have a harrier in my list that time.

Ashlynn never got accused of being an auto win. Rhyas had the ability to get to the enemy caster and the damage output that she could end the game herself. Truestrike made it even more reliable.

Can Rhyas still vault over a wall of troops and hack a caster's head off? I guess I need to play a couple games and try it out. Acrobatics is still there and decap gives you a good amount of damage. Losing Sword master kind of hurt, since her low fury can't get around it. Debating whether it's worth including a Seraph with her for Slipstream's extra 2".

Questions


Will the neph protector do for Rhyas what the Vanguard did for Ash?


Is ninja godzilla the way to go now that the Carnivean is much nastier/meaner?


Does the neph soldier still have a role in a Rhyas list? Even with the warchief/iron chef combo gone, Massacre and Reach could be useful.


Does Shredder popcorn tactic still work with her?


Thanks for giving this a read. Hoping this will spur some good discussion on making a decent Rhyas list and encouraging people to not write her off. Please keep it positive.

[Neutralyze]

how bout being incorporeal with a raeks animus. i like that.

[Necra-Chi]

My main concern with her is keeping her alive till she gets into combat and then after that against magical weapons.

I'm looking at infantry supporting warlocks at the moment and its between Rhyas and the Lylyths. E-Lylyth can give her beasts and herself stealth, and can operate from a safe distance but I found that she struggles to support her army with her small control range and the new wording of her feat. Rhyas's feat is at least a pulse, and dash is model/unit touched, which is very useful. I also like what she does for the carnivean.

BTW how does cleave interact with tide of blood?

[slinkdawg]

Yeah, part of the problem with incorporeal is that it won't help against a caster/lock - and that is who Rhyas gets stuck in melee with often (or in charge range of). I wonder if using the Rapport'ed c-rex is the way to go, since it will be harder for rhyas to charge in and kill the caster herself.

[Primus]

Tide of Blood placement goes off on boxing a model, Cleave goes off after the attack is fully resolved. Full turn order would be kill -> teleport -> Cleave-granted second atack -> done.

[Neutralyze]

cmon people, raeks animus. get within range of said warcaster/warlock use animus on them , kill a model and go incoporeal.

not too hard to avoid warcaster and warlock in melee with her.

[Necra-Chi]

That's really good. I see some potential there. The shadowstalk thing and the cleave thing.

Will it be mandatory to take a protector with her?

[Ravnak]

I really think that for her to be viable, her incorporeal ability needs to trigger on boxing any model, rather than "living model".

All is fine and well vs. Other hordes, but she is so gimped vs. Warmachine, and as good as dead vs. Cryx.


I also dislike her 5 fury, but we'll never get that changed :)

[freekittens03]

cmon people, raeks animus. get within range of said warcaster/warlock use animus on them , kill a model and go incoporeal.

not too hard to avoid warcaster and warlock in melee with her.

As mentioned in other forums. The warlock can cast the raeks animus on multiple targets. 5 targets=5x7" movements=35" of movement. Rhyas can get in your casters face pretty quickly

[hairsolo]

Shadowstalk and Rhyas is a pretty cool combo. One problem with it is the enemy model has to move 1 inch for it to kick in. So if she fails to kill a WC or a WL or an enemy beast/jack they can still flatten her by not moving and swinging at her in her melee range.

One way to get out of that kinda of trouble might be to have the Seraph slipstream by Rhyas placing her out of melee and 2 inches away from the model you failed to kill. That way the only choices they have would be to stand still and spell / range attack you to death or try and kill her with models without shadow stalk on them. Either way its in your favor because you are preventing their movement toward Rhyas.

I can see a little prep work before the assassination run.
Nephlim Protector ( 5 pts ) casts safeguard for 2 fury on Rhyas - no knock down
Rhyas activates and goes for the assassin run. -(Harrier (2 pts) animus optional)
Rhays fails assassination run and throws last focus as a shadow stalk on WC or WL
Searaph (8 pts )charges/swoops in and slipstreams Rhyas placing her behind Seraph.
Rhays is now relatively safe as long as WC or WL does not have reach and a bit of luck.

[ArtificialDecaySynthesis]

I can see a little prep work before the assassination run.
Nephlim Protector ( 5 pts ) casts safeguard for 2 fury on Rhyas - no knock down
Rhyas activates and goes for the assassin run. -(Harrier (2 pts) animus optional)
Rhays fails assassination run and throws last focus as a shadow stalk on WC or WL
Searaph (8 pts )charges/swoops in and slipstreams Rhyas placing her behind Seraph.
Rhays is now relatively safe as long as WC or WL does not have reach and a bit of luck.
Wait... did they take out that thing of only one animus on a model at a time? because i think shadowstalk is self, and the protector's animus would stop her from putting it up.

[hairsolo]

uhhhh... tell the truth im a WM player. I'm getting into Hordes... so yeah I probably screwed that up. But hey drop the no knock down animus and its still okay... I guess.

[Malkav13]

Of course it is still OK, especially if she has death shadow active. When she's incorporeal she can't be knocked down, except by spells, feats, etc. So, should be no trouble there.
Plus, shadow stalk "targets" an enemy model, and triggers an effect if that enemy model moves. However, I don't know if you can have more than one shadow stalk up at a time. If so, that is just amazingly good.

[Aedric]

There is nothing in the animus that precludes you from casting it multiple times. (yet)

[ArtificialDecaySynthesis]

However, I don't know if you can have more than one shadow stalk up at a time. If so, that is just amazingly good.
yeah i was about to say that... but then i looked again at it because i was going under the assumption of the raeks old animus as being self. However, this is not the case in mk2. it's ranged and target but not offensive. So you can cast it on two different units and if both units were to move you would then get 2 free moves. However, you can't throw it on the same unit 5 times and get 5 moves if they move, assuming the old rules of named effects not stacking still stand in mk2 (it was a good rule and should still be there).

I think this maybe a little too good at the cost of one fury. maybe up this thing to 2...

[freekittens03]

yeah i have a thread about this rulling in the mk2 rules forum but am still awaiting a reply from an infernal

[SteakAndSpirits]

Given that mark I Rhyas was my favorite (if most ill-fated) Warlock, I've really been looking forward to sinking my teeth into the overhaul, and would love to participate in the MKII Brainstorming.

Strictly by the numbers, Mark I Rhyas had a damage range of 16 - 36, centered at 24 points, with an even distribution of damage relative to target's armor. Mark II Rhyas has damage range of 15 - 30, which will do dramatically more damage to low armor targets, but will quickly fall off as armor rises. I imagine that pound for pound, as melee beatsticks, they'll likely function similarly -- So far as Hordes vs. Hordes is concerned, the loss of Weapon-Master and Swordmaster appear to be a greater blow to the pride of fielding an elite Blademaster, than to actual functionality.

Meanwhile, the Rhyas staples of Acrobatics, Perfect Balance, and Riposte remain in place. And swapping Malice for Mind Ripper is mostly a wash, if not preferrable for eliminating the needless rolling of dice.

The real magic of Mark II Rhyas seems to be the Death Shadow overhaul, as becoming Incorporeal is awesome for several reasons:

First and foremost, immunity to non-magical damage isn't just limited to the damage your opponent generates when they swing their weapon at you -- The exact phrasing is:


This model suffers damage and effects only from magical weapons, magic attacks, animi, spells, and feats and is immune to continuous effects.

Which means unless an opponent has some way to make their power attacks into magical weapons (hint: they don't), Rhyas is immune to slam damage, collateral damage, etc. And she isn't going to materialize long enough to be knocked down by a slam, either. Which means that with death shadow, her high defense will actually come into play when she's on the table instead of being circumvented entirely by a simple knockdown.

Yes, the Protector can make Rhyas immune to Knockdown for 2 Fury, but save that for Abby -- If you aren't killing something /every turn/ with Mark II Rhyas, it's time to start. :)

-s&s

[Lazlo]

I rarely ever played her Mk I version, but I like her Mk II version. She seems a little weaker in melee, particularly the loss of Swordmaster, but I think she will do ok.

I was wondering what they would do after taking out Invisibility, but Incorporeal was something I hadn't considered. It's nice, but everyone and their dog as magic weapons these days, so I'm not overjoyed by it.

[SteakAndSpirits]

Re: Incorporeal -- I was anticipating Sprint or Groundwork as the likely substitute. I think I like Incorporeal better, given that it eliminates Slams/Collateral damage.

-s&s

[katadder]

wasnt mk1 Rhyas a swordmaster and weaponmaster? would prefer to keep both of these and crit decap rather than the current rhyas. or at least give her weapon master back. for her cost the only benefit to taking rhyas now is to give your carnie a decent MAT so it can actually compete with warjacks.

[Shadowspite]

I played her in 1 35 point game today.

list was
Rhyas
Carnivean
Raek x2
Shredder x2
Harrier
Forsaken x2
Shepard x2
Deathstalkers x2
10 legionnaires.


over all, it was really just my Carn running rampant with Rapport on in while the rest of the army stalled the opponents army.

all Rhyas did was charge and fail to kill an axer, then charging and killing a Hero while keeping Rapport on the Carn.

the Carn killed the Totem hunter, an impaler, a fel caller, an Axer, and finished the game by killing Doomy himself.

Carniveans are nuts.

it just feels like any other one of our warlocks would have helped my army out more, while STILL buffing the Carn to those levels. and her melee really does not impress me (although, that could be my bad dice rolls...)

just my 2 cents.

[guruhoro]

I played Rhyas yesterday - the first time I ever tried. Had to have been one of the worst matchups: opponent was playing Cryx with Terminus as his caster.

There were two living enemy models on the table: Gerlak and Darragh. I charged in with the feat active, slapped a mechanithrall aside and teleported into a position where I could kill Gerlak. Poof, incorporeal with one fury. Rapport up on the Carni hanging out on the flank.
Terminus took two double-boosted swings at Rhyas and killed the Carni exactly (14+14 damage). Kept the last 2 focus. Had a soul from really bad feat turn, as most of what I had around was soulless.
Next turn, an incubus and 2 legionnaires charge Terminus for 5 points of damage, Rhyas uses Harrier's animus, boosts damage, again, autohits the last blow but doesn't kill. Terminus down to 2 hit points.

[mladjanobugarce]

Rhyas got hit by MKII really hard, from elite killer she went to "boost your Carny" warlock. I play more often against warmachine than hordes and she went from model anemy casters were running away to a model that they simply camp fokus against and since she can`t hurt armor 22-23 models anymore they just ignore her.

[alchahest]

rhyas + carnivean is pretty great.

rhyas is no longer an assassin, though. it is too bad, I loved being able to terrify casters by getting her close. it is much, much different now.

[mutantias]

Rhyas got hit by MKII really hard, from elite killer she went to "boost your Carny" warlock. I play more often against warmachine than hordes and she went from model anemy casters were running away to a model that they simply camp fokus against and since she can`t hurt armor 22-23 models anymore they just ignore her.

Uhm Exsqueeze me?? Shutting down a warcasters focus use/allocation completely is nothing?

[mladjanobugarce]

Not much since if they finish Carnivean in MKII they can simply chase HER around. She is not threat anymore and much worse support caster than other legion warlocks.

Don`t get me wrong I really like her she is just very inferior to other Legion warlocks now( except poor Aby, of course :) )

[Neutralyze]

I think her issue is obviously higher armor.

Is it too much to guive her the ability to ignore focus that adds to armor?

Currently if they kill the heavy hitter it would take rhyas a lot of luck to get around the focus campers.

[Aedric]

Not sure what to do with her. She sucks at support. Do I really want to take her just to make the carnivean better?

Not seeing a reason to take her. Really Rhylas and Abys both suck right now and won't see any real play except in really casual games.

So many casters do what they do better....

Anyone have any ideas how to fix them?

[mladjanobugarce]

It`s not that hard to improve Rhyas : +1 MAT and weaponmaster + crit decapitation is OK. Thrust special attack that halves armor and +1 or 2 POW on her weapon would work as well. Arcane assasin will do too...

[Neutralyze]

I think arcane assassin would be the most fair route to take.

[Primus]

That's a good idea. I'll factor that in to my games with her today, see what would have happened with and without it.

[SteakAndSpirits]

Aye. Arcane Assassin would go a long way. Weapon Master will be sorely missed from a thematic standpoint.

-s&s

[hackrune]

Arcane Assassin would actually be fantastic. Outright adding to her damage seems a bit absurd considering Decapitation is already amazing, but that would make her a genuine threat to any 'caster aside from Karchev.

I'd also like to see MAT 8, just to put her in line with other assassination-focused 'casters and warlocks.

[Neutralyze]

Having played 4 test games with rhyas I can say that arcane assassin would of been a fair route to take over anything else that I have thought about.

Wm wit decap is not fair by any means. With arcane assassin factored in she would of been a fair threat to the focus camping casters I played against but nothing OTT.

[Garth]

I think she sucks now.

Her Feat got weakened too much.

1.Only 1 movement
2. You have to kill the model, nut just hit it

In MK I the flying Godzilla was cool or Rhyas could move a lot and then still the otehr caster.
But now this is different. It is easy to hide against her Feat or have just a high armor...


I see nothing she can really do. All she does is buff the Carnivean, then the Carnivean is as good as the typhoon with less threat range...
Dash and her Feat can be useful for melee infatry, but that's all I see in here now.

[Awefaw]

Yeah thats kinda sad. I remember playing a game, it wasnt the most competitive but I used swordsmen to not kill cataphrax but tele behind them and kill the agonizer so my agenli could kill the caster. Granted they cant just run over things like that.

[ShockwaveIIC]

As strange as it may sound what about *Attack Thresher to combat the lack of Swordmaster? It only really improves her versus grunts which stops it being too powerful.

Additionally, she is, in effect only a +4 beast point caster. With MAT 7 your almost forced to take a Harrier. Give her MAT 8 and the some of the above, and people will fear when she gets to combat just like they fear Lola.

[mladjanobugarce]

I used her in few 35p. games(Cygnar) and results are not impressive. In both games I had similar lists : Carny, Seraph, BL, Incubi,2 shreders,Raek, Harrier,Shepard

In both games my oponents focused their efforts and killed my Carny first. I activated my feat and tried to come as close as I could to enemy caster, became Incorporeal and tried to use Raek animus - and than died!

My conclusions:
*Raek animus with her sounds great but with fury stat 5 she can`t reliably hit majority of models even with boosting and heavies didn`t need to move since she can`t reliably hurt them (ARM 21)
*Casters and warlocks and many other models(B13/Gunmages) have magical weapons so Incorporeal is less usefull than it sounds.
*Once Carny falls it`s allmost game over with her if it`s 35 or less points game since she doesn`t support her army(1 INCH movement is really not enough) and she can`t do much herself. This also means that Carny is overpriced but that`s another story.
* She almost always needs to boost to hit since she`s MAT 7 and especially during her feat turn she can`t afford to miss.
*Change to her feat really hurt her because she has no way to have higher threat range than 14-15 Inches and even for that she needs : ( her 2 FURY SPELL +1 Inch movement; Seraph animus;Nephilim soldier animus and her feat) Most assasins have bigger threat ranges with much less resources spent

[Soulblighter]

My conclusions:
*Raek animus with her sounds great but with fury stat 5 she can`t reliably hit majority of models even with boosting and heavies didn`t need to move since she can`t reliably hurt them (ARM 21)

Rhyas shouldnt really have problems hitting anything because of the Harrier's animus. Rhyas' biggest problem in MK2 seems to be beating the transfer mechanic. She doesnt have any tricks for shutting down transfers. And with FURY5 she just doesnt get enough attacks to outright defeat the transfer mechanic. She really struggles killing any warlock that can transfer and thats her main weakness that needs to be addressed.

[mladjanobugarce]

I was talking about Raek animus and magic attack she needs to make in order to use it under MKII rules.

And if we talk about melee attacks the problem is that she needs to spend 1 extra fury on each attack in order to use Harrier`s animus. MAT 8 would partially solve that problem.

[Necra-Chi]

Rhyas should have swordmaster I think. Weaponmaster would be too good and its mirrored by the decap thing. Maybe she always goes for the neck? But she should have swordmaster (rapid strike).

BTW Rhyas doesn't need to hit with Raek's animus, it just happens. Its not an offensive animus.

[Soulblighter]

I was talking about Raek animus and magic attack she needs to make in order to use it under MKII rules.

Huh? The Raek's animus isnt offensive. She doesnt need to make a magic attack to use it.


And if we talk about melee attacks the problem is that she needs to spend 1 extra fury on each attack in order to use Harrier`s animus. MAT 8 would partially solve that problem.

Even with MAT8 she would still need to use the Harrier's animus to reliably hit most warlocks. She wont get MAT8 anyway because of Rapport.


Rhyas should have swordmaster I think. Weaponmaster would be too good and its mirrored by the decap thing. Maybe she always goes for the neck? But she should have swordmaster (rapid strike).

She definitely needs Rapid Strike. That would help her immensely in beating the transfer mechanic.

[SteakAndSpirits]

Rapid Strike + Arcane Assassin?

-s&s

[Soulblighter]

Arcane Assassin would probably make her too good against warmachine. She already slaughters most warcasters as is. Shes fantastic against warcasters but really struggles against warlocks because of damage transference.

[ShockwaveIIC]

See that's the thing, the armour 14 casters, poop bricks when Rhyas gets close but the 18's don't care. Arm14 holding 4 focus will take, average dice, 10 damage when Rhyas hits, two hits and their gone. Arm18 holding 3 will take 4. And that is the problem, Arcane assassin (ignoring focus only) will solve that, the little guys are still dead while the big ones are now concerned but will still take muliple hits to take down.

To the MAT 8 thing. If she had this then it would change her style of attack from "buy attack, true strike, maybe boost damage" to just buy attacks. It might slove the lack of swordmaster issue. But you might have to change Rapport to a flat +1 to hit or something.

[JaggedToothGrin]

Ok, mk2 Rhyas is a disappointment (especially compared to eMorghoul, which is just scary depressing)
in all my games with her so far i have never felt like rhyas was in some degree of control over the game. in one game, i found myself with a near perfect assassination run, grim was in the open, and he had some fury (and a single relatively undamaged beast to transfer to) but between decap, and the rest of my army, i figured i would be able to soften things up and go from there. i send my beasts at his blitzer, to soften it up further, so that my inevitable large hits will overflow, and worst case, he'll be beastless and hurting for fury due to the new rulings. my beasts disappointed me, but rhyas charged in, and proceeded to using her feat, drop him to 1HP. without him transfering once. What The Hell. without swordmaster or weapon master, she was unable to even kill grim. she would have whiffed even if he'd had no fury, or my beast run had been more successful.

she hasnt the fury rate to overcome the low hit potential to kill warlocks, and without weaponmaster, she doesnt have the reliable damage to kill warcasters. i was able to win a game via a rapport'd carnivean on turn2 into a fury-less kaya, but rapport offered less benefit to me than incite would have (let alone something like Manifest Destiny, which as a bonus comes with a caster who can ACTUALLY KILL THINGS) incidentally, i won the grim game anyway, cause he freaked out about rhyas in melee and tried to stab her... but these wins have only been possible because my opponents made massive mistakes in crucial moments. not at all because rhyas herself was in any real way suited to the task.

my theory on how best to make rhyas competitive but not over the top are as follows:

Give her mat 8, and maybe def 17. if Morghoul can have them, surely she can too (and yes, we can use tenacity to then bring outselves up to sorscha levels, but so much khador can do that anyway, vlad and the OW for instance both have that level def without much work)
Give her something better than the current deathshadow (i like the flavour of the ninja invisibility thing, but unlike before, she cannot freestrike or riposte without losing it, and it offers no defence against her most common prey, which is warcaster/warlocks. assuming she screws up in melee with them, she's screwed either way.) maybe let her keep fighting whilst incorporeal, or atleast let her end her activation normally beforehand like eMorg gets too.
Give her back Weaponmaster (this would be too powerful with autodecap, but let me get to that) so that she can dish out some decent damage to people
Give her some way to make multiple attacks, as at the moment, she's looking at 2 or 3 hits with her feat up, and thats just bollocks) if not swordmaster, then something similar, maybe an improved version of cleave (so atleast she can carve up infantry) but really, just swordmaster would be great
Drop decap back to a crit (this should happen to eMorg too, but dont get me started on that guy)
Fix her spell list. right now, rapport is a joke. look at eMorgs list, death warrant is a cool spell, and as i like our beasts, i'd love it, but ok, rhyas is about infantry moreso, so lets leave that one as it is, but how about flashing blade? rhyas would really love that (especially if she can hold her decorporeality till the end of the action) and Flesh hooks is way better than malice (i liked mind ripper, it was nice even if it rarely went off)
she should keep Dash, and perhaps keep some sort of offensive spell, but death warrant would assist in damage potential, which she should have over eMorg, and flashing blade would be damned useful. maybe if she had a spell that gave her dual boosts or something, like pay 2 focus, gain boosted hit and damage for the turn or something.
i'd kinda like stealth too, why doesnt she have that? she's a goddamn ninja. or atleast she's dressed like one. maybe she's a ninja gaiden (ie, bollocks) ninja, rather than a tenchu ninja. but she shouldnt be. she should be awesome.

but right now, compared to eMorg, she's got worse stats, a worse feat, a worse spell list, and for the most part, worse weapon and special rules. acrobatics is nice, but i really dont think it's enough to compete with everything else. she has 1 higher p+s, unless he deathwarrants, in which case, he's way ahead again.

anything i'm overlooking?

[Soulblighter]

See that's the thing, the armour 14 casters, poop bricks when Rhyas gets close but the 18's don't care. Arm14 holding 4 focus will take, average dice, 12 damage when Rhyas hits, two hits and their gone. Arm18 holding 3 will take 4. And that is the problem, Arcane assassin (ignoring focus only) will solve that, the little guys are still dead while the big ones are now concerned but will still take muliple hits to take down.

I dont know what youre talking about. Rhyas kills an ARM18 warcaster easily on average rolls.

1) Rhyas uses harrier animus and charges for 22.5 damage = 9 damage to ARM18
2) Rhyas uses harrier animus, buys another attack, boosts for 22.5 damage = 9 damage to ARM18.

With 4 fury, shes already done 18 damage to an ARM18 caster. Rhyas has NO problems killing warcasters. Shes amazingly good at it. What she needs help with is killing warlocks.

[ShockwaveIIC]

I dont know what youre talking about. Rhyas kills an ARM18 warcaster easily on average rolls.

1) Rhyas uses harrier animus and charges for 22.5 damage = 9 damage to ARM18
2) Rhyas uses harrier animus, buys another attack, boosts for 22.5 damage = 9 damage to ARM18.

With 4 fury, shes already done 18 damage to an ARM18 caster. Rhyas has NO problems killing warcasters. Shes amazingly good at it. What she needs help with is killing warlocks.
I said ARM 14 with 4 focus she kills in two hits.

ARM 18 with 3 focus she does only 8 damage as if the third is true strike'd then she'll average no damage or if she just swings and boosts damage then she'll only have a 58% chance of hitting.

[Devilsquid]

I think Rhyas is more the 'nail in the coffin' as opposed to the whole coffin now. Before, you had an army just to cover Rhyas getting into combat. Now, it seems as if you need to use her more in conjunction with her army to get the kill off.

I plan on using her this week for some games. Will be interesting to see how she pans out.

[ShockwaveIIC]

I think Rhyas is more the 'nail in the coffin' as opposed to the whole coffin now. Before, you had an army just to cover Rhyas getting into combat. Now, it seems as if you need to use her more in conjunction with her army to get the kill off.
Maybe it is because I never really used her as Bullet #1, that was the Warmongers (Not the chief, he got nailed before his time) IF Rhyas got the kill it was always after her feat turn, strange but true.


I plan on using her this week for some games. Will be interesting to see how she pans out.Too weak is my guess. But likewise, she'll be out this weak here as well.

[Soulblighter]

I think Rhyas is more the 'nail in the coffin' as opposed to the whole coffin now. Before, you had an army just to cover Rhyas getting into combat. Now, it seems as if you need to use her more in conjunction with her army to get the kill off.

If thats true, then how does that not make her inferior to other warlocks like eMorghoul, that deliver the deathblow outright? What else does Rhyas have to offer? Nothing.

[slinkdawg]

I +1 Necra's suggestion that she should get swordmaster back. It gives her a quosi focus that can only be used in melee. That would bring back some of the assassination punch.

For deathshadow, they should just give her +1 or +2 DEF, and it would make her slippery enough to survive in combat. Since she's typically in melee, she has less to fear from ranged when she's in combat. The real benefit of invisibility was mostly from the melee Defensive buff to prevent her from getting hit.

Has anyone had success running the nephalim soldier with her yet?

[Zerosoul]

If thats true, then how does that not make her inferior to other warlocks like eMorghoul, that deliver the deathblow outright? What else does Rhyas have to offer? Nothing.

This.

Rhyas is already a worse beatstick than any other melee assassin casters. One single solitary POW 12 with Decapitation does not impress, especially when her Fury stat is so low, which makes buying attacks with her a less than certain proposition, especially when one considers True Strike is essentially a requirement with her. The Butcher makes her look like an absolute chump, with better everything save SPD. Okay, maybe that's not fair - the Butcher is supposed to be THE BEST in melee, right? So let's look at Hordes, where Rhyas is utterly outclassed by both versions of Morghul, Xerxis, and Baldur, and arguably outclassed by several non-melee assassin warlocks like both versions of Makeda. It's silly. If her auto-include Carnivean is killed(not that hard given its still-abysmal DEF) she has no way to crack any armor by herself at all. A Warmachine caster need only punk out her Carnivean and then camp Focus and run forward. This is not good, to put it mildly. It's not good to have a melee assassin that can't finish the job. The couple times I've played her my opponents just anticipated the assassination run (not very hard to do, given the setup required) by camping Fury or Focus and laughed her off. I've managed to win, but only because I figured she couldn't do it herself and set up contingency plans.

She needs Arcane Assassin -and- Rapid Strike. Wouldn't help with the Fury-camping, but Hordes casters are supposed to be harder to assassinate. Or give her Weaponmaster back and drop her POW to 10 or 11. That makes her a beast, but no better than Epic Morghul, who inherently has Grevious Wounds and Decapitation, and who can increase the damage and to-hit probability as needed by slapping down Death Warrant.

I also think her spell list needs work. Rapport is fine, even if it basically dictates your army comp, and Dash is okay, but Malice is a joke. Mind Ripper would be better, but frankly I'd rather see her get some kind of damage buff.

[Necra-Chi]

I'd like to know why people biggest beef with Rhyas is her loss of melee assassination power and NOT her loss of the buffs to hit for her army when she got the crit.

I only ever pwned noobs with Rhyas actually getting the assassination. dash and searching for the crit near my army was what gave me the edge against better players. The buffs to hit are essential for her. That's the biggest loss IMO.

I can fully understand the toning down of her melee assassination potential, because it would be a negative playing experience for noobs in Mk1 and Mk2 alike, but the loss of the additional dice to hit really hurts.

I'm coming around to how many of our beasts are justified for their points with many of our warlocks because so many have ways to boost their ability to hit or do damage, but Rhyas can only do that for 1 maybe 2 beasts if she cycles rapport, and has almost no fury left.

I think this and the lack of an effective way to make it to combat without being shot up before she gets there are her major weaknesses. Oh and incorporeal sucks as a defense mechanism.

I wish I had more legionnaires to try with her. I think CMA makes up for some of her weaknesses. Maybe I should proxy, although I'd hate to find out something cool about the combo when I have no intention of buying a second unit.

[ArtificialDecaySynthesis]

I'd like to know why people biggest beef with Rhyas is her loss of melee assassination power and NOT her loss of the buffs to hit for her army when she got the crit.that is my biggest beef with her. i just haven't gotten any playtest in so just assumed it might not be as big in an actual game.

I only ever pwned noobs with Rhyas actually getting the assassination. dash and searching for the crit near my army was what gave me the edge against better players. The buffs to hit are essential for her. That's the biggest loss IMO.exactly. she doesn't do too much for the army anymore and reads more like a solo than a warlock. Maybe make Rapport effect the entire battlegroup and have to be put up every turn. there just needs to be more support for the army than just trying to draw the shortest line to the enemy caster.

[Zerosoul]

I'd like to know why people biggest beef with Rhyas is her loss of melee assassination power and NOT her loss of the buffs to hit for her army when she got the crit.

I only ever pwned noobs with Rhyas actually getting the assassination. dash and searching for the crit near my army was what gave me the edge against better players. The buffs to hit are essential for her. That's the biggest loss IMO.

I can fully understand the toning down of her melee assassination potential, because it would be a negative playing experience for noobs in Mk1 and Mk2 alike, but the loss of the additional dice to hit really hurts.

I'm coming around to how many of our beasts are justified for their points with many of our warlocks because so many have ways to boost their ability to hit or do damage, but Rhyas can only do that for 1 maybe 2 beasts if she cycles rapport, and has almost no fury left.

I think this and the lack of an effective way to make it to combat without being shot up before she gets there are her major weaknesses. Oh and incorporeal sucks as a defense mechanism.

People are looking at her loss of melee assassin potential because that's what Rhyas's win condition is in Mk. II, or at least that's what her stats seem to say. I'm not looking at her in terms of how she's changed since Mk. I, since the game has changed enough to make that a losing battle, but looking at her as a Mk. II caster. Yeah, the loss of the extra die on attack rolls hurts a lot, but it's gone, not coming back, and it was never really on the table after we saw the WM rules.

Let's be real here. Odds are pretty high that Rhyas will never be the most competitive caster out there, because there's so much melee hate out there, and Mk. II shooting is so much better. If you want a super-competitive caster at high-level play, you're going to be reaching for Saeryn the vast majority of the time, because she's still great at that, or maybe Vayl (and I think probably eThag, personally, but I can't tell if that's just because he's my boy and I'm not being realistic or if he's really that good). But right now, Rhyas is a caster who has pretty much one single win condition - deliver a Rapport'd Carnivean to your opponent and squash their face. She -should- have the juice to pull off an assassination run in melee, but she simply doesn't. There are successful melee assassins out there - eMorghul proves that the concept can work. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'd just like to see her with the capability to do something besides upkeep Rapport and hit stuff with Shadow Stalk to avoid getting smeared by a warjack.

[JaggedToothGrin]

actually, rapport on the whole battlegroup would make me take her and an army of shredders again
mat 7 shredders
and just imagine the look on those popcorn haters faces when i say "guess what? i have 20 free transfers"
lol good idea ^^;

(sarcasm aside, if it wasnt abusable like that, rapport as a battlegroup thing would actually address a lot of problems that a fury 5 caster has, which is control area and lack of cheap beastboosting)

(edit: oh, and zero, its not just you, eThag is literally an abomination. i am currently trying to think of ways to hamstring myself whilst playing him, to make a game out of it. since he has come out, i have seen a single time he lost, and that was pretty bizarre circumstances. and he got BETTER in mk2?! the dude needs a massive punching (and perhaps a series of increasingly smaller punchings thereafter) because right now, playing with him as is pretty much should be a bannable offence :/)

[Necra-Chi]

I think I'm going to try her out with a counterintuitive build, maximising the benefits of dash for ranged troopers, with the melee dedicated to a more counter-assault style. This allows me to better Protect rhyas, can still have a carny with rapport, and trumps the melee hate. Dash is probably more powerful than her feat as it stands.

jaggedtoothgrin, I reluctantly agree about E-Thag. I was amped to test basically just him and strider lists in the beginning but after one game its was like "dayum, still broken, don't know what to do with that, will come back to it" and then tried him again against tougher opposition and it was like "Ooh ouch, second turn kill, nasty, still don't know what to do with that"

[JaggedToothGrin]

in mk1 i ran a series of horrific lists with her as my second to eLylyth incubi, same build, but with rhyas instead, the result was pretty impressive, dash disengages the tied up archers, and gives the resultant incubi a good boost
the problem is in mk2, that we are still highly limited in terms of damage potential, and rhyas herself is still a complete wet blanket. but trust me, the theory behind that style of list is sound

[ArtificialDecaySynthesis]

and just imagine the look on those popcorn haters faces when i say "guess what? i have 20 free transfers"
lol good idea ^^;
as it stands, popcorn is gone.

[JaggedToothGrin]

yes, but if i had a rapport battlegroup, instead of killing a shredder for the potential free transfer, i just start with a free transfer to every single one of my beasts
which is much much worse than popcorn ever was. by a truly absurd margin
so, all the people who are dancing upon its shallow grave would weep bitter tears of sweet blighted dragons blood.

and i had a thought about eThag, something i'm gonna try out before i go yelling it, but my thought was basically, change Manifest Destiny (because S&P is a b!#ch move in khador, and we have rabid and strafe to our benefit. best i can tell, thats the single biggest thing, although scourge was a terrible decision too)
anyway, change MD so that its an offensive spell, single target, if it targets a model in his battlegroup, they get the current benefit, if it targets an enemy model, battlegroup models attacking that model get the current benefit. you could either make it an upkeep, or not (and maybe make it 2fury to cast if so) although that could also get pretty horrible fast, its nowhere near as across the board ridiculous as the current version.
in any case, to bring this back to point, eThaggy is better at mellee assassination than rhyas. better at army support than rhyas, and he has a whole lot more fury to throw around. double-ewe-tee-eff PP? (so far, the only model i can say is definitely less good at being rhyas than she is, are smoke gobbers :/)

[edit: the cussfilter is getting smarter. why is it getting smarter? havent they seen Terminator?]

[Soulblighter]

I think Rhyas should have Carnage instead of Malice. Carnage would give all friendly models in her control area +2 to melee attack rolls. The bonus from Rapport stacks with it so wed have a Carnivean rocking MAT9.

[Necra-Chi]

in mk1 i ran a series of horrific lists with her as my second to eLylyth incubi, same build, but with rhyas instead, the result was pretty impressive, dash disengages the tied up archers, and gives the resultant incubi a good boost
the problem is in mk2, that we are still highly limited in terms of damage potential, and rhyas herself is still a complete wet blanket. but trust me, the theory behind that style of list is sound

I only like the idea more now because archers with uA have gotten a tad more versatile. They can go defensive with dual shot or suppressive fire but they can also go offensive with pathfinder and combine arms.

Dash means you can't just engage them and if they move they can still do 6 RAT 7 rerollable POW 12s.

[ArtificialDecaySynthesis]

now i see what you mean. i was thinking just the mat/rat increase for battlegroup rapport and get rid of transfer option. i forgot about that part.

Maybe something like full throttle like the butcher has.

[Warcaster Kirin Folken]

Some quick thoughts to improve Rhyas...

+1 DEF
+1 Fury or return of Swordmaster

Rapport becomes : Warbeast Bond, Same effect.

Add Spell:
Carnage

Would also love to see something like...

Blade Dance: Any time this model boxes a enemy model or is missed by an attack roll. This model may move 1'

[Neutralyze]

i hate to say if but not every one of our warlocks need a beast buff that increases mat/rat (runs and hides).

there has to be soemthing different that can happen to her to make her stand out.

[Warcaster Kirin Folken]

We are Legion!! If you dont have half your army pts as warbeast something wrong... err sorry that was mk 1
.



We are Legion if 3/4th of your army isn't warbeast points then your doing it wrong. :D

[ArtificialDecaySynthesis]

there has to be soemthing different that can happen to her to make her stand out.
sort of why i wish she had the to hit bonus from killing crap in mk1. incentive to come out of the hole.

[Necra-Chi]

sort of why i wish she had the to hit bonus from killing crap in mk1. incentive to come out of the hole.

Exactly! That is what I loved about Rhyas Mk1. She could decapitate a shifting stone and go "Hah! Look how awesome!" and her army would be like "OMG awesome" and then "RAWR!" and flip out and kill stuff.

:P

[Gaspy]

I really liked the army buff she had for killing things. She could move up field killing solos or just troopers and buffing the troops around her. Now she hides and tries to make one jab at the opposing caster, hoping to boost high enough to get through their armour. I feel it's wrong that any 16+ armour Warmachine caster could (in theory) camp all focus and just stand next to her 1v1 and our "super-killy ninja chick" couldn't really do ANYTHING. That's pretty sad. There aren't many SUPPORT casters you can say that about. +2 P+S would really solve this.

Maybe the troop buff could be added to Death Shadow?

Rhyas is currently a collection of abilities that seem to TRY (and fail?) to make her a complete melee beatstick caster. Anytime you see someone with the same ability granted from different effects at the same time you know (hope?) she's not finished. Unless there's some bonus for being doubly-immune to free strikes that I'm not aware of.

[Soulblighter]

They got rid of her decapitation buff because it was ridiculous. The best we can hope for is a reasonable replacement like Carnage.

[SteakAndSpirits]

Models that receive immunity from free-strikes from two separate abilities are allowed to ignore free strikes twice as often.

Also, players who have models that receive immunity from free-strikes from two separate abilities are required to remind their opponents of this fact whenever possible. Generally, this rule is most critical to observe when an opponent is trying to formulate a complicated turn and/or pass a sobriety test.

-s&s

[Angelust]

I had a couple games last night where Rhyas successfully got a charge on the other caster on her feat turn.

I was so disappointed when she failed to kill each time, and got squashed afterward.

2 attacks with Tide, and 4 fury at the time...it really made me realize that she lacks the edge on both primary forms of caster defense: high Def and high Arm. Mat 7 is just sad when spells like Iron Flesh, Tenacity, Wardogs, and other DEF buffers are around. Even boosting I had to hope for average to above average rolls against high DEF casters to get through.

High ARM, as has been stated, is even more difficult to overcome, as a low damage roll doesn't just yield low damage, it will often yield no damage at all. So after your initial attack, you're spending 1 fury to purchase an attack, 1 fury to boost to hit, and 1 fury to boost to damage, all for an iffy chance at getting above their armor. It basically means you'll maybe get 2 boosted attacks normally, or 3 maybe on your feat turn if you risk not boosting an attack roll here or there.

I gotta say, it was very disappointing when I'm used to pAsphyxious just demolishing anything in melee, and also having a great spell list...with arc-nodes...with high FOC...with great ranged spells...with...just a hell of a lot more. (Don't get riled up that I'm doing a WM to Horde comparison please)

Maybe we need to focus on how we can get Rhyas to make the most of Dash? Ignoring free strikes can be pretty great...what units can take advantage of this kind of slippery mobility the best? infantry spam?

Edit: Looking over the cards, it really seems like Rhyas is meant to be played with Saeryn. Deathspurs can grant grievous wounds on the stuff that Rhyas charges, and their abilities obviously complement each other. However, with mk2 phasing out the double caster games, I wonder if Rhyas (not really Saeryn) pays a synnergy tax for their increased abilities with each other?

It seems to me the best answer would be to tone them both down a little, and make both of them one warcaster choice, kind of like the Witch Coven. Now that'd be sweet! A 3 Fury Rhyas, a 5 fury Saeryn, both with limited spells and slightly above solo stats? We can dream, right?

[ArtificialDecaySynthesis]

help a lazy man out, what's carnage?

[SteakAndSpirits]

Friendly Faction models gain +2 to melee attack rolls against enemy models in this modelʼs control area. Carnage lasts for one turn.

As seen on the one, the only: Madrak Ironhide.

(And maybe Makeda)

-s&s

[ArtificialDecaySynthesis]

lol sheesh it was on the first page...

[SteakAndSpirits]

Well. To your credit, it wasn't written in bold, or anything.

The spell text, that is.

The spell title itself was bold. At the top of the list. And pretty visible.

They could have used capital letters, maybe?

In either case, you've got it now. ;)

-s&s

[Sabin]

From experience shadowstalk makes Rhyas supremely nasty and the protector does a good job keeping her alive, I also like to disregard arguments about Ashlynn being tougher when rhyas can cast tenacity and transfer. I think the only real issue is that she is a good warlock next to some insanely powerful ones

[Gaspy]

Carnage would help her fill a complimentry role with her army.
As I said before she needs a way to hurt/incapacitate hard targets. She is already on the low MAT end of elite melée casters but if you want to make her a glass cannon she MUST be able to bring the pain to everybody. If WM casters can camp focus and laugh at her attack run she will go from one of our most loved casters to... not.

[JaggedToothGrin]

ok, just finished another game with rhyas, seraph was golden, carnivean was very good, harriers were glorious little *******s, and legionnaires and incubi where complete rubbish (between the fifteen of them they killed a single kriel warrior in the entire game, and that lass got KDed for her trouble)

so, rhyas manages to just survive a kriel-warrior stomping (3 warriors in her back arc, with fervour, charge of the trolls, and grissels feat, and 2 caber ******s in her front arc. she got ripostes on both cabers, did not kill either) thanks to rapport's free transfer. she's staring right at grissel (who is looking like this :o ) grissel has 1 fury left, and 1 HP left (thanks to afforementioned awesome beasts) and i have 5 fury, and my feat left. i charge in, and literally only just kill her on the last fury. two hits of any damage whatsoever to kill a middle of the road caster, and on my feat turn i only just manage it? that is some buuuuuull****

[Sabin]

Perhaps suggest backswing.

A more extreme suggestion, killing spree. Wouldn't help with assasination but she would eat infantry alive.

[Soulblighter]

Improved Rhyas (http://s857.photobucket.com/albums/ab131/Soulblighter20/Rhyas.jpg)

[Sabin]

I would accept those changes without complaint if I had to play against them, given how much of a monster she would be in melee however I would probably ask for her beast allowance to go down to 5+

[Adeon]

EoD from Feora to Rhyas!!! :P

[JaggedToothGrin]

yeah, comparing to eMorg that doesnt really do a lot for me, in particular i am thinking something akin to This (http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d194/jaggedtoothgrin/Rhyas25.png)
(personally, i'd rather keep the pow, and make decap back into the old crit, but this is me trying to move forwards and stuff.)
although that maybe a little over the top, basing her comparisons to eMorg is perhaps not the path to balance. but i think she'd be nice and competitive as a fury5 melee assassin, cause she sure aint now.

[Nargacuga]

I like her current normal decapitation ability but she needs something else. I say give her the spell Guided Hand and Critical Brutal damage on her sword.


Before anyone yells ZOMG OP borken!!1!! Consider this:


The Butcher on a charge with Fury has 10" range (SPD5 + Reach) hits at MAT 9+2d6 (avg 16), POW 19+4d6

Damage on charge attack breaks down as follows:

Average roll = 33

vs ARM 16 = 17 dmg
vs ARM 18 = 15 dmg
vs ARM 20 = 13 dmg

After the charge and paying for Fury the Butcher has enough focus to buy 4 additional Mat 9, POW19+3d6 attacks.

PLEASE NOTE THAT I DID NOT ADD THE BUTCHER'S FEAT TO THIS CALCULATION.


Rhyas with Guided Hand and Critical Brutal Damage would have a charge attack at 10.5" (SPD 7) with Boosted attack roll for crit MAT 7+4d6 (avg 17) and POW12+4d6 Decapitation attack.

Damage on charge attack breaks down as follows:

Average roll = 22

vs ARM 16 = 12 dmg
vs ARM 18 = 8 dmg
vs ARM 20 = 4 dmg

After this, Rhyas has enough fury in which she could buy 2 additional MAT 7, POW12+2d6 decapitation attacks.

Now Rhyas isn't the Butcher, but she really is the closest thing that Hordes has to him. As opposed to overwhelming damage, her low pow weapon + decap make her a bit of a wild card when trying to assassinate things and her defensive abilities compensate for it. I think that giving her Guided Hand adds much more to supporting her army and Crit Brutal Damage brings her power back in line with her fluff.

[Zerosoul]

I've been thinking about it, and I think Weaponmaster would not be ridiculous, especially if she dropped a POW or 2. There are half a dozen casters across both games I can think of off the top of my head that hit harder and more accurately and are much more scary in melee, and still supports their army better than her. Or keep her POW where it's at and drop her beast points some. She definitely needs Rapid Strike, or Backswing, which I think might be better and more fair.

I don't understand the love for Carnage, frankly. I don't like the notion of her having no way to deal with Incorporeal aside from taking an iffy Nyss Sorceress or charging in and chopping something up herself. She needs to keep some kind of offensive spell, just for safety's sake. Besides, I agree with Neutralyze that not every caster needs to have a MAT/RAT buff. I'd like to see something different with Rhyas, something that would be different from an inherently inferior Vayl or eThag.

[Neutralyze]

hey now, she has malice! take that you incorporeal punk!

pow 10 rapid strike with wm and decap? what about AA?

[Hjelmen0]

This might have been mentioned, but how would a Vanish-like effect do as a replacement for Incorporeal in Death Shadow?

It's somewhat more ninja-like, I think, but it might leave her more vulnerable. IDK, just a thought :)

[RuneGrey]

A lot of the problem is that Rhyas has always paid a bit of a premium for her relationship with Saeryn. And the two of them never actually run with each other, at least in my local where 2 caster games are rare, so you lose some of the benefit for the fact that the twins act like arc nodes for each other, and transfer their abilities to each other.

Rhyas could probably use a bit more extensive reworking into a troop leading caster, rather than being a super solo style caster. More than 3 spells, another point of fury, and some useful support spells outside of just rapport and occasionally dash. Another idea is giving her an ability similar to the Leviathan's Rapid Fire, which increases her damage output based on the base size of the model she is fighting.

My dream is that Rhyas and Saeryn become a 2 model warcaster duo in their epic form, to more match how they fought in the fluff against Thagrosh. The twins are supposed to be fairly inseparable - hopefully they'll actually show that aspect in their epic version.

[Nargacuga]

My dream is that Rhyas and Saeryn become a 2 model warcaster duo in their epic form,

^
THIS
THIS
THIS

Like I told some friends of mine last week before the MKII rules hit, with the new point system, we will rarely have games with multiple casters so it would be awesome to have Rhyas and Saeryn both go epic together as one caster.

Great minds think alike~

[Gaspy]

~Fools seldom differ. :p

[W0lf]

+1 DEF, +1 S on weapon, +1 MAT

Gimme gimme gimme

[ShockwaveIIC]

It is quite amusing that the discussion has gone the way it went as I had this conversation with my flat mate last night after leaving here.

People have noted that she does not come close to the output of Butcher (She shouldn't but she should be #2 IMO)

Do a comparison between her (with True strike) and Reznik with Hierophant and Wrack both with and without the target having an upkeep on it. ;) Then remember that Reznik is a melee/ jack caster crossbreed.

Even Thagrosh, isn't that far behind Rhyas against low/medium armour casters and that is assuming he spent 3 on mutagensis to get there!!

[EDIT]Oh, how about replacing Deathshadow with Flash??

[Neutralyze]

i think Deathshadow was just fine. if people are that worried about it then just give her ground work for crying out loud. i like being immune to non magical attacks.

[Zerosoul]

hey now, she has malice! take that you incorporeal punk!

pow 10 rapid strike with wm and decap? what about AA?

Yeah, but everybody seems to want to drop Malice and replace it with Carnage. That seems a rather silly idea to me, given how thin Carnage would stretch her Fury, but it seems to be getting headway for some reason.

POW 10 Rapid Strike with WM and decapitation would be fine. It would make her as good an assassin as...a two-point solo in another faction! Well, almost, except for the whole getting spelled to death as she crosses the field thing.

[Nargacuga]

Ill say it again:

Critical Brutal Damage on the sword and Guided hand (to boost hit and critical % on either herself or a unit/beast)

These changes make her a critical hit themed caster and she buffs her army in getting critical hits as well~

[Sabin]

I like her current normal decapitation ability but she needs something else. I say give her the spell Guided Hand and Critical Brutal damage on her sword.


Before anyone yells ZOMG OP borken!!1!! Consider this:


The Butcher on a charge with Fury has 10" range (SPD5 + Reach) hits at MAT 9+2d6 (avg 16), POW 19+4d6

Damage on charge attack breaks down as follows:

Average roll = 33

vs ARM 16 = 17 dmg
vs ARM 18 = 15 dmg
vs ARM 20 = 13 dmg

After the charge and paying for Fury the Butcher has enough focus to buy 4 additional Mat 9, POW19+3d6 attacks.

PLEASE NOTE THAT I DID NOT ADD THE BUTCHER'S FEAT TO THIS CALCULATION.


Rhyas with Guided Hand and Critical Brutal Damage would have a charge attack at 10.5" (SPD 7) with Boosted attack roll for crit MAT 7+4d6 (avg 17) and POW12+4d6 Decapitation attack.

Damage on charge attack breaks down as follows:

Average roll = 22

vs ARM 16 = 12 dmg
vs ARM 18 = 8 dmg
vs ARM 20 = 4 dmg

After this, Rhyas has enough fury in which she could buy 2 additional MAT 7, POW12+2d6 decapitation attacks.

Now Rhyas isn't the Butcher, but she really is the closest thing that Hordes has to him. As opposed to overwhelming damage, her low pow weapon + decap make her a bit of a wild card when trying to assassinate things and her defensive abilities compensate for it. I think that giving her Guided Hand adds much more to supporting her army and Crit Brutal Damage brings her power back in line with her fluff.

Rhyas vs. Butcher isn't completely accurate due to the fact the butcher is not an acrobat that can go incorporeal, vastly limitting his threat range, he is also on a medium base making him harder to protect.

[Nargacuga]

Rhyas vs. Butcher isn't completely accurate due to the fact the butcher is not an acrobat that can go incorporeal, vastly limitting his threat range, he is also on a medium base making him harder to protect.

Agreed, the butcher is the king of damage, but as I said, Rhyas is the closest thing to him in hordes and should be #2 on that list as a ninja assassin.

Rhyas should be able to dish out near-Butcher level damage but only on high rolling critical hits.

Where Butcher marches up the middle and is guaranteed to completely annihilate your caster with an overkill of high damage attacks, Rhyas must use her speed and agility to sneak in and try to kill you with one hit. If she fails, she must use her defensive abilities to survive until next turn.

[warmaster21]

not only did she lose swordmaster (i could care less about weaponsmaster now shes got auto decap) but she doesnt even get the extra attack from her own feat, and at fury 5 she has a hard time killing anything big. i got a game in against eKurgar yesterday and with her whopping 5 fury easily failed the assassination run, survived the retaliation becuase of a mistake on circles part, and killed him from behind with a reported carni. it doesnt help when druids are immune to all my range attacks (carni and angel both fire) and everything he has is magic so incoporeal is useless....not to mention his army was basically def 16 in melee.... my raptors spent a turn missing every shot needings 7/8s to hit... and then taking a gorax down to one on the next turn so a feated ryas could get to krugar with the teleport on said failed assassin run.

Rhyas's spell list is a joke in my oppinion now, she cant use dash on herself for an extra 1speed (which sometimes can make the difference) she can at most make 6 attacks in melee without boosting anything, there is no reason to ever use malice as she cant hit with it. and if she could shes not going to damage to anything she can resonably hit.... report being the only spell shes worth having in my oppining out of the 3... Dash is usefull but i do with she could at least effect herself with it... it would be interesting to see her with flashing blade that would would make her too much like ashlyn (who i use probably more then any other caster/lock, though i wouldnt mind having a legion ashlyn) ;)

i hope they get around to an epic rhyas soon... i want to see how that turns out ;)
*
EDIT*
now to read the few posts that were not there while i was typing this one... the butcher may be the king of damage... but skar can put out a much higher damage threshold with auto hitting pow 18+3d6 damage 11 times, or 18+4d6 damage 6 (i think trying to copy skar would be a beter way to go.. after all they are the same gender) ;)